Ulster 2014/2015, Part 4

First topic message reminder :

God we love the sound of our own voices.

Personally I think Diack is a pretty decent pro12 number 8 - I'd have him ahead of Williams now. And sure, we now know Taggart is supposedly a decent prospect!

It rather stings to know some team is about to pick up Piutau for probably considerably cheaper than we are paying 

Can someone light the Geoff beacon or something, we need some answers on signings, the whole Lutton thing and our coaching situation.

I haven't been posting for a while, so I thought I would post it now, I like Payne at 13, he just seems a lot more solid than cave! That's all!

BelfastDickVet wrote:I haven't been posting for a while, so I thought I would post it now, I like Payne at 13, he just seems a lot more solid than cave! That's all!

Reluctantly, I agree. He has looked very good the longer he has played there.

Yes, I was wrong. It happens occasionally..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:I haven't been posting for a while, so I thought I would post it now, I like Payne at 13, he just seems a lot more solid than cave! That's all!

Reluctantly, I agree. He has looked very good the longer he has played there.

Yes, I was wrong. It happens occasionally..

Of course it's not as one dimensional as that. Part of my agreement has to do with Ludik proving his worth at 15 too.

Question is, are we not planning to give Ludik his third year to make him IQ? Seeing as Piutau is coming? Would that not be a shame?

I agree wholeheartedly on Payne. It took him a while to find his feet but playing in the Six Nations under Schmidt seemed to be a real turning point for him.

It would be hard on Ludik who has gave his all for Ulster this season, Clive, but with Piutau on board where would Ludik fit? We don't really need Piutau at centre or on the wings. I suppose if Bowe hangs his boots up, then maybe, but there is talent there with the likes of Scholes coming through and hopefully making the step up.

Well in that case, I wouldnt be surprised to see Ludik heading to another province. He'd be ahead of Jones for Ireland surely. (Although realistically Payne would be moved if Kearney were unavailable)

He could do. I have no doubt his value has risen, and clubs will be keeping an eye on him. He would walk in to many sides as a starter. Possibly one of the Provinces, or head back to France?

It's hard to argue against Payne at 13 now. I have tried. He's steadily improving, although I still say he's at his best at FB

Ludik may well just want to go back to saffer land, you never know. He will have been in the NH for at least three years if not 4 so he might want back to a province having made good money.

Yea, when you think about it Ludik probably made it known from the outset two years was his limit. We then got Piutau agreed so far in advance because Ludik was never going to stay.

I didn't realise that there was still some bickering about Piutau, but apparently there was.
Does this mean that Ulster will get him earlier than expected?
How the hell was he expected to still play half a season for the Blues anyway?

No part-time Blues role for Charles Piutau in next year's Super Rugby
May 20 2015
www.stuff.co.nz

New Zealand Rugby are taking a tough stance on departing All Blacks back Charles Piutau, ruling him out of any involvement in next year's Super Rugby championship.

Piutau shocked his All Blacks boss Steve Hansen by signing a lucrative deal with Northern Ireland club Ulster, just as he was settling into the test frame where he has played 14 internationals.

The 23-year-old won't join Ulster until midway through next year and still hopes to be part of the All Blacks' World Cup plans.

But it seems the Blues will have to say goodbye to their star fullback once this sorry season ends.

Their hopes of having Piutau involved in part of next year's campaign have been dashed by their NZR bosses standing firm on a player who wouldn't commit for the full Super Rugby season.

The Blues had argued that they would be silly to ignore Piutau's talent, even in a limited capacity, in a year when the New Zealand talent drain will be at its worst and further complicated by some players being removed for sevens duties with the Olympics looming.

There was better news for Piutau on the injury front, with his knee problem responding well to treatment. There are even suggestions he might see a return to action before the 2015 campaign ends.

The Blues continue to work through their messy coaching scenario with New Zealand Rugby stepping in to mediate over an impasse that has seen the Blues board split on whether to retain the services of beleaguered coach Sir John Kirwan or appoint a replacement.

Why would they alienate this fella in such a way, surely they want him to come back to New Zealand as soon as his contract with us is up. Doing things like that seems very short sighted in their part.

It would be fantastic to land him early but I can see how we would be allowed to do it. We would be ridiculously stacked in the back line.

Standulstermen wrote:It would be fantastic to land him early but I can see how we would be allowed to do it. We would be ridiculously stacked in the back line.

Also the extra year is not an insignificant sum of money.

BelfastDickVet wrote:Why would they alienate this fella in such a way, surely they want him to come back to New Zealand as soon as his contract with us is up. Doing things like that seems very short sighted in their part.

He's kinda alienating himself though when you look at it from their side of the fence.  Its relative.  

I sympathise to a degree with individual young men looking to make their way in their career for most money possible.  And NZ is a tough place to get to the top.  There is so much quality competition.
But nobody can have things all their own way.  Young players drifting away are ruffling feathers.  I can easily sympathise too with NZR.  They have their obligations to the game in their Nation and are charged with sustaining it.  Playing 'hard ball' with individual young men, who perhaps naively think that life is going to give them absolutely everything they want without a fuss, is a legitimate weapon from my standpoint.
'Go - you have the freedom to do so - but there are potential consequences.'

Notch wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:It would be fantastic to land him early but I can see how we would be allowed to do it. We would be ridiculously stacked in the back line.

Also the extra year is not an insignificant sum of money.

It should be less than the other two though. He doesn't have the same bargaining power. Staying at his current club is no longer an option, and he can only offer one year to any other club which doesn't allow them to 'build a squad'. In other words, he's in a bit of a desparate situation. Not saying he will be cheap. but certainly cheaper for this one year.

SecretFly wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:Why would they alienate this fella in such a way, surely they want him to come back to New Zealand as soon as his contract with us is up. Doing things like that seems very short sighted in their part.

He's kinda alienating himself though when you look at it from their side of the fence.  Its relative.  

I sympathise to a degree with individual young men looking to make their way in their career for most money possible.  And NZ is a tough place to get to the top.  There is so much quality competition.
But nobody can have things all their own way.  Young players drifting away are ruffling feathers.  I can easily sympathise too with NZR.  They have their obligations to the game in their Nation and are charged with sustaining it.  Playing 'hard ball' with individual young men, who perhaps naively think that life is going to give them absolutely everything they want without a fuss, is a legitimate weapon from my standpoint.
'Go - you have the freedom to do so - but there are potential consequences.'

That's an excellent point. The IRFU do the same, with the exception of sexton (and rightly so), but I would hate to think that say Munster told JJ he wasn't going to get anymore game time with them for the remainder of his time with them because he is going abroad. They didn't do this, he is leaving on excellent terms, thus leaving the door wide open for one of Ireland most exciting young players to return.

I just think being so harsh benefits no-one, bravado and pride are a huge part of who these guys are and such a public act of disrespect towards won't be forgotten in a hurry.

BelfastDickVet wrote:

That's an excellent point. The IRFU do the same, with the exception of sexton (and rightly so), but I would hate to think that say Munster told JJ he wasn't going to get anymore game time with them for the remainder of his time with them because he is going abroad. They didn't do this, he is leaving on excellent terms, thus leaving the door wide open for one of Ireland most exciting young players to return.

I just think being so harsh benefits no-one, bravado and pride are a huge part of who these guys are and such a public act of disrespect towards won't be forgotten in a hurry.

I agree that it's a dance that needs to be sensitively handled.  But on both sides.  

That sense of disrespect you speak of, and the idea that it won't be forgotten in a hurry, is perhaps already written down deep in the minds of the NZR people themselves.  And perhaps their recent stamp of authority was the first signal of it.  
They are beginning to see a bit of a stampede of their younger players chasing off abroad and still naively thinking that their careers will go according to how they wish their careers to go.  And undoubtedly they'll have agents whispering to them too to affirm such beliefs.  NZR is shooting in there and saying: "Not so.  We still have the power to ensure we too must be respected.  And we decide on players' International futures, not youthful greenhorn players filled with bravado."

It's a warning.  It's saying to all younger players - 'don't take us for granted.  You don't control your entire destiny and neither does your agents.'

It seems harsh on Piutau, but I think NZR are doing what's best for NZR. They wouldn't have an issue with guys edging toward retirement, or who are no longer in the running for a place in the squad, heading abroad to earn that bit extra. Losing bright prospects who they have invested heavily in for the future is an entirely different matter, and Piutau is right up there with the best. I would expect IRFU to have exactly the same approach.
I'm not sure I agree with NZR preventing Piutau seeing out the remainder of his time with Blues though. I suppose it helps reinforce the message to all other prospects/future prospects that if they want a place on the national team they should stay at home.
I don't blame Piutau either. He is doing what he thinks is right for him, and from the little I know of him he strikes me as someone who will stand by his convictions, and deal with whatever pressure that brings.

At some point though, do we not just have to look at it as a profession. In daily life, we see accountants, nurses, bricklayers deciding they want to emigrate and do their job somewhere else. Maybe its better money, but I'd say also some of these people actually just want to broaden their horizons, see different cultures.

Are we saying that the same choices made in the rugby world are somehow despise able?

Rugby players are people too.

NZR may well be trying to pressure Piutau into backing out of his deal and resign with them

Well I think you would expect a return on your investment. NZR have invested in Piutau, and were only starting to realise a return on that investment. Not that it ends there. Piutau can return after a couple of years, and fight his way back into the squad.

marty2086 wrote:NZR may well be trying to pressure Piutau into backing out of his deal and resign with them

Possible, Marty. I had the same thoughts, but I really think it's more likely that NZR are sending out a message to any young player who might likewise be tempted. NZR are not going to make it easy for them, and rightly so.

It's like an awful break up, "yeah you can F**k off to your new sexier woman (Ulster), but if you do you won't be seeing the kids again any time soon(play international rugby any time soon)".

BelfastDickVet wrote:It's like an awful break up, "yeah you can F**k off to your new sexier woman (Ulster), but if you do you won't be seeing the kids again any time soon(play international rugby any time soon)".

Dick he won't be missing any international rugby though which is why I think its them trying to get him to change his mind. The only thing he'd miss is the RWC, either that or they have different standards for the ABs and franchises as they are claiming theres no point him being there when a younger player can take his place and develop and half the ABs going to the RWC won't be in NZ when its over

clivemcl wrote:At some point though, do we not just have to look at it as a profession. In daily life, we see accountants, nurses, bricklayers deciding they want to emigrate and do their job somewhere else. Maybe its better money, but I'd say also some of these people actually just want to broaden their horizons, see different cultures.

Are we saying that the same choices made in the rugby world are somehow despise able?

Rugby players are people too.

Players can do all that.  

But the analogy is that a nurse or an accountant leaves a company/hospital that relied heavily on their expertise and had big plans for their promotion to the top in the next few years.  But the accountant or nurse is just of the mind that they have to spread their wings and go experience life and work elsewhere.  Nothing personal just a personal drive for change that needs to be acted on.

So far so good.  But they want to be kept on for another year before their intended foreign job kicks in.  Indeed, they expect nothing less.

Now the bosses step in and say "Hold on here.  We have to look after our concerns here and if we need to begin the process of change, and if we need to think now of others in terms of promotion for the future, we're not so sure we want you to stay on for the year.  It might be best if we all part company now, given that you've made your decision a year in advance.  You shouldn't have flatly expected us to be more than happy to let you stay."

Plus - if that accountant or nurse then goes off, and has their foreign experience, and enjoys it, and excels at it.... should they really then expect all to be sweetness and light when they decide to return home and look for a job with the exact same company/hospital?  "No hard feelings - can I have my job back now, with the promotion I was due too before I left?"

'F**k Off', comes to mind as the response.

Yes, these players have the right to do anything they want with their lives - but so too does the NZR have the right to impose their terms and conditions.  The player doesn't and shouldn't have his entire life pan out exactly as he wants it to.  He doesn't decide on it all, and shouldn't expect to.

If Pitau has signed for Ulster then that's the end of it. The NZRU are entitled to do whatever they want in the interim to look after their own interests.

pitau has made his call so needs to honor it - he better not do an Xavier Rush on us.

SecretFly wrote:

clivemcl wrote:At some point though, do we not just have to look at it as a profession. In daily life, we see accountants, nurses, bricklayers deciding they want to emigrate and do their job somewhere else. Maybe its better money, but I'd say also some of these people actually just want to broaden their horizons, see different cultures.

Are we saying that the same choices made in the rugby world are somehow despise able?

Rugby players are people too.

Players can do all that.  

But the analogy is that a nurse or an accountant leaves a company/hospital that relied heavily on their expertise and had big plans for their promotion to the top in the next few years.  But the accountant or nurse is just of the mind that they have to spread their wings and go experience life and work elsewhere.  Nothing personal just a personal drive for change that needs to be acted on.

So far so good.  But they want to be kept on for another year before their intended foreign job kicks in.  Indeed, they expect nothing less.

Now the bosses step in and say "Hold on here.  We have to look after our concerns here and if we need to begin the process of change, and if we need to think now of others in terms of promotion for the future, we're not so sure we want you to stay on for the year.  It might be best if we all part company now, given that you've made your decision a year in advance.  You shouldn't have flatly expected us to be more than happy to let you stay."

Plus - if that accountant or nurse then goes off, and has their foreign experience, and enjoys it, and excels at it.... should they really then expect all to be sweetness and light when they decide to return home and look for a job with the exact same company/hospital?  "No hard feelings - can I have my job back now, with the promotion I was due too before I left?"

'F**k Off', comes to mind as the response.

Yes, these players have the right to do anything they want with their lives - but so too does the NZR have the right to impose their terms and conditions.  The player doesn't and shouldn't have his entire life pan out exactly as he wants it to.  He doesn't decide on it all, and shouldn't expect to.

If you are the are good enough then yes I think you can take that attitude. I have seen this happen a fair bit at the vet school here, a number of clinicians/clinical lecturers have buggered off to private practice for a year or two and then returned seamlessly in my time here, the school are happy enough because these people are exceptional at what they do and we are a better school having them
Back with us.

marty2086 wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:It's like an awful break up, "yeah you can F**k off to your new sexier woman (Ulster), but if you do you won't be seeing the kids again any time soon(play international rugby any time soon)".

Dick he won't be missing any international rugby though which is why I think its them trying to get him to change his mind. The only thing he'd miss is the RWC, either that or they have different standards for the ABs and franchises as they are claiming theres no point him being there when a younger player can take his place and develop and half the ABs going to the RWC won't be in NZ when its over

That's a fair call, I suppose I am more dissapointed at their stance on him playing super rugby, the blues are weak enough as it is, stopping him playing super rugby in his final months seems a clear case of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

BelfastDickVet wrote:

If you are the are good enough then yes I think you can take that attitude. I have seen this happen a fair bit at the vet school here, a number of clinicians/clinical lecturers have buggered off to private practice for a year or two and then returned seamlessly in my time here, the school are happy enough because these people are exceptional at what they do and we are a better school having them
Back with us.

Shouldn't expect it as a right though. Nice when it all pans out of course for everyone. But arrogantly expecting life to leap up and kiss you sweetly no matter what you choose to do with it or who you choose to side-step or disrespect or ignore or belittle along the way...well, it's a pretty naïve outlook for this particular Dog-Eat-Dog-world we live in

So yeah, nice when it all works out and everyone ends up happy - but demanding such a life as a right is hopelessly idealistic.

rodders wrote:If Pitau has signed for Ulster then that's the end of it. The NZRU are entitled to do whatever they want in the interim to look after their own interests.

pitau has made his call so needs to honor it - he better not do an Xavier Rush on us.  

It IS a bloody long time though, aint it?  
Another full season before he's expected?  A young foot-loose fancy free guy with lots of loose energy to throw around and I'm sure an ocean full of impatience.  Who knows where any of us will be after a full year.  I don't know about these long duration pre-agreements/contracts at all.  Scotland had to wait a full year for their Coach to finally show up.  Not everyone there is fully satisfied that the wait was worth it.

rodders wrote:If Pitau has signed for Ulster then that's the end of it. The NZRU are entitled to do whatever they want in the interim to look after their own interests.

pitau has made his call so needs to honor it - he better not do an Xavier Rush on us.  

rodders theres always a grace period for both parties though it comes with financial penalties if anyone backs out

SecretFly wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:

If you are the are good enough then yes I think you can take that attitude. I have seen this happen a fair bit at the vet school here, a number of clinicians/clinical lecturers have buggered off to private practice for a year or two and then returned seamlessly in my time here, the school are happy enough because these people are exceptional at what they do and we are a better school having them
Back with us.

Shouldn't expect it as a right though.  Nice when it all pans out of course for everyone.  But arrogantly expecting life to leap up and kiss you sweetly no matter what you choose to do with it or who you choose to side-step or disrespect or ignore or belittle along the way...well, it's a pretty naïve outlook for this particular Dog-Eat-Dog-world we live in

So yeah, nice when it all works out and everyone ends up happy - but demanding such a life as a right is hopelessly idealistic.

Yeah I would agree with that. I suppose, with hindsight, my example may not be that transferable.

Follow on from iHumph slagging discussion on Glasgow match thread
------------------

Every new backup 10 we have ever had has resulted us asking 'X surely wasn't as bad as this' about the predecessor who we had been overjoyed to see let go only months previously!

Just goes round in circles. 

Niall O'Connor will come out of retirement again if we are lucky/unlucky!

On that note - iHumph is now 33 - and O'Hagan has been AWOl (long term injury?)

Is Heaney really our next best option at 10?

We aren't far off a crisis during the world cup!

Sure we signed that Aussie 10

AH! You know what, being honest I can't even tell if I knew this and due to lack of excitement it seeped from my memory, or maybe I missed it entirely.

Sure at least the numbers are up again during world cup. Wonder will this guy displace iHumph in Jackson's absence?

Also, any info on O'Hagan -has he been injured all season?

I haven't seen him on any of the Ravens team sheets, which can be hard to find at times.

BelfastDickVet wrote:I haven't seen him on any of the Ravens team sheets, which can be hard to find at times.

Heaney has been starting at 10 in a lot of them.

The Ravens can be hard to find at times. I think the Provinces should at least try and make these teams a bit more high profile.

Munchkin wrote:Yet another citing.....


Ulster's Rob Herring facing disciplinary hearing over alleged stamp



HerringCited

tut,tut, tut. When will your boys ever learn.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Yet another citing.....


Ulster's Rob Herring facing disciplinary hearing over alleged stamp



HerringCited

tut,tut, tut. When will your boys ever learn.

Hahaha you are fast becoming a parody of yourself.

It's fairly simple, if he stamped, then fair enough, I was at the match, so didn't have the same views or angles that the citing commissioner had or has. These things get referred for a reason, and if the commissioner believes there is a case to be reviewed then so be it, fair play and player safety must take priority.

If. If not then why was he cited in the first instance? Should find out one way or another soon.

But I do feel that even if there is a shred of doubt about an incident, I would be happy enough for the commission to review it. Yes it's crap that it's yet another one of our players under scrutiny, but we must uphold this mentality.

If there is no case to answer, the commissioner needs to be censured, because Herring and Ulster's training will have been disrupted all week.

If Herring did a stamp then he needs to face the consequences like everyone else.

I think there should at least be a strong possibility that any citing will be upheld. A shred of doubt, I agree, but from what I have viewed I can't honestly see anything worthy of a citing. It may be that I have been viewing the wrong evidence, or that there is better footage of the incident, but if not then it has to be asked why a citing?
A player being wrongly cited takes up the time of staff and the player. Mid week before a knock out game is hardly ideal, and does disrupt training for that game.
I'm not suggesting that Herring isn't guilty. I don't know the truth of it. Just that if he is not guilty then Ulster Rugby should ask that the citing process be reviewed.

Munchkin wrote:I think there should at least be a strong possibility that any citing will be upheld. A shred of doubt, I agree, but from what I have viewed I can't honestly see anything worthy of a citing. It may be that I have been viewing the wrong evidence, or that there is better footage of the incident, but if not then it has to be asked why a citing?
A player being wrongly cited takes up the time of staff and the player. Mid week before a knock out game is hardly ideal, and does disrupt training for that game.
I'm not suggesting that Herring isn't guilty. I don't know the truth of it. Just that if he is not guilty then Ulster Rugby should ask that the citing process be reviewed.

Is there a better way to do it though? With games on consecutive weekends, you can't just look at footage and sa their innocent or guilty everyone deserves to put their case forward