This is why we love Wayne Barnes.

by GunsGerms Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Review of Wayne Barnes v Ireland 2015:

https://youtu.be/IEuXfewLcuY

Ireland lose again with Barnes as ref. Its getting ridiculous now. 3 wins in the last 13 games v Barnes. Really hope we don't get him for any WC games.

Joe Schmidt also has issues with Barnes:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/joe-schmidt-has-issues-with-wayne-barnes-over-scrum-calls-1.2145742

Graham Henry also suspects something isnt quite right about Barnes' lopsided officiating too

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/07/31/graham-henrys-final-word-on-suspected-match-fixing-in-rwc-2007/

by SecretFly Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:13 pm

Yes...and thus would have ended the thread.

But a question always has a moan factor so I guess my experiment failed Sad

by tigertattie Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:15 pm

I think we've run out of sauce for all these chips folk are carrying around!

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yes...and thus would have ended the thread.

But a question always has a moan factor so I guess my experiment failed

Ah but that means you were right, after all you said "Oh I don't know if I have the scientific brain to pull it off". Hug

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:41 pm

tigertattie wrote:I think we've run out of sauce for all these chips folk are carrying around!

Am I misreading that, or are you asking us to get saucy too??

by Gwlad Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:11 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Well at least Leinster have an excuse when they lose to Toulon!

We are not the favorites thats fine I dont mind. However, if you have to lose to one of the most horrible teams in world rugby then a decent ref isnt much to ask. The game is already ruined.
the game was ruined for the neutral when the most horrible team in world rugby squeaked past Bath without scoring or even looking like scoring, without the assistance of the referees whistle.

Toulon are excellent at the breakdown without cheating. Leinster are excellent at the breakdown with cheating. Barnes forces teams to not cheat. I look forward to a try-fest, especially now that giteau is back from injury. wouldnt even begrudge Leinster a score though it does look unlikely.

Ha, I dont think as a Quins fan you should be accusing Leinster of cheating. Most horrible cheats in the history of European rugby. It took a Leinster man to straighten them out and turn them around. Do you see any irony in your silly comments?

What's all this talk about cheating…..it was a real blood capsule.

by yappysnap Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:28 pm

There is a lot of rage on this thread, I believe GunsGerms should get a medal for allowing everyone to channel it so well.

by SecretFly Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:35 pm

Rage is nice. I like it mostly when it behaves and helps out in a project. If it sulks it's a bastard.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:48 pm

MichaelT wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, I would probably feel as bitter as you if some of the most exciting players for my country (JJ, Watson, Ford) flattered to deceive yet again when it mattered. Ah well.

JJ is 23. Ford is 22. Watson is 20. All very young. About 10 caps each is it? What do you expect them to have achieved?

Name me the great players from Ireland who had achieved anything at that age. O'Driscoll had played international rugby for 10 years before he won a Six Nations.

The only reason Ireland had the edge at the Six Nations was experience. POC was playing European Cup finals in 2002. None of those three were in secondary school then. When you factor in B Vunipola, Nowell and May, its a testament to those players they came second.

England/ English teams not winning is because of wasting 2004 - 2010. A 'missing generation'. Nothing to do with the players you mentioned.

Don't take it too seriously, I was having a pop at quins. I rate all 3 players very highly. Although I think Watson is much better at fullback and defensively he is very badly exposed on the wing.

by quinsforever Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:59 pm

same old rory, always wumming

doesnt work, and makes you look dumb as many people may actually assume you were trying to make a rugby point.

by quinsforever Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:04 pm

yeah quins have bloodgate.

however on the pitch we dont systematically attempt to push the laws and boundaries of the laws at every breakdown. then blame a ref as biased who interprets the laws in a clear, fair and consistent manner to prevent it from becoming a cr4ppy penalty-fest with ball being endlessly slowed down and the game only won by conning at the scrum or lineout or breakdown for kickable pens.

worst team in world rugby to watch at the moment is spot on guns.

maybe thats why every other country was happy to see Barnes keep the appointment? if the irfu had any allies in this respect then Barnes would not have gotten the match.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:24 pm

quinsforever wrote:same old rory, always wumming

doesnt work, and makes you look dumb as many people may actually assume you were trying to make a rugby point.

Do you not agree that Watson is better at fullback and isn't as badly exposed in defence? I would say it is very difficult to argue otherwise, if you have watched him over the past year or more. Including at international level of course.

by SecretFly Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:30 pm

quinsforever wrote:

maybe thats why every other country was happy to see Barnes keep the appointment? if the irfu had any allies in this respect then Barnes would not have gotten the match.

The rest of them voted for Barnes, did they? Oh the bastards! There's unity for you.

Anyway, all will go well, Toulon the Deserving will go though to the KoolKup final. Rest easy.

by quinsforever Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:34 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
quinsforever wrote:same old rory, always wumming

doesnt work, and makes you look dumb as many people may actually assume you were trying to make a rugby point.

Do you not agree that Watson is better at fullback and isn't as badly exposed in defence? I would say it is very difficult to argue otherwise, if you have watched him over the past year or more. Including at international level of course.

i do agree that watson is a very good fb. and it was a crying shame that he didnt play there against ireland. goode is solid under the high ball, but offers precisely nothing in counterattack...he leans so far backwards while running forwards i dont see how he ever breaks a tackle.

but watson has not done anywhere near enough to displace mike brown yet. brown is a real leader and aggressive influence within the team, so even if they were of comparable playing quality, brown for now will always get the nod for england.

i dont think watson got exposed in defence against leinster at all. he did against france for england, but that's also partly because england were throwing players forward in attack, so turnovers led to far more dangerous counterattacks.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Didn't he play fullback against Leinster, though? I agree he wasn't exposed defensively.

You see, we can have a reasonable discussion. Wink

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:18 am

quinsforever wrote:yeah quins have bloodgate.

however on the pitch we dont systematically attempt to push the laws and boundaries of the laws at every breakdown. then blame a ref as biased who interprets the laws in a clear, fair and consistent manner to prevent it from becoming a cr4ppy penalty-fest with ball being endlessly slowed down and the game only won by conning at the scrum or lineout or breakdown for kickable pens.

worst team in world rugby to watch at the moment is spot on guns.

maybe thats why every other country was happy to see Barnes keep the appointment? if the irfu had any allies in this respect then Barnes would not have gotten the match.

No thats the main problem with Barnes. He is absolutely not consistent.

Yes Leinster are very boring at the moment. We have been butchered by poor coaching. However, Toulon are the anthesis of everything I believe in in rugby and therefore I cannot abide them.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:20 am

You tend to miss his consistency with you being down an eye.

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You tend to miss his consistency with you being down an eye.

I have given you lots of examples of inconsistency and if you read the article on Graham Henry there are more examples there. You are just being a pest at this stage.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:40 am

I believe an example you gave was penalising sides in the 1st half which proved to be incorrect. At this stage you're a very bitter man!

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I believe an example you gave was penalising sides in the 1st half which proved to be incorrect. At this stage you're a very bitter man!

Are you Karl Pilkington?

I believe I gave you lots of examples of about 10 years of games but you dont seem to be able to process the information or just prefer to bury you head in the sand.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:47 am

I'm not abroad! I also don't think you can possibly be serious.

by wolfball Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not abroad! I also don't think you can possibly be serious.

He's not really.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:41 pm

wolfball wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not abroad! I also don't think you can possibly be serious.

He's not really.

I pretend he is joshing with us, makes it easier to fathom than the alternative.

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:05 pm

What do you find so hard to fathom? That a referee can be inconsistant? That Barnes could actually be quite a poor referee?

I have posted articles from two international coaches that have questioned the validity of some of Barnes' calls one of these managers has gone as far as to say that he suspects Barnes may be involved in match fixing.

It is quite rare for managers or ex managers to question referees to this extent.

Its not that difficult gents he is too often the subject of the debate after big games rather than the action itself. I suspect there is an element of jumping to the defense of a fellow English man at play here from some posters who are lucky they do not have to sit through international matches that he refs.

There are a worring amount of examples of this and more than any other elite referee at the moment.

by Nachos Jones_1 Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:53 pm

I know you think that he has an absolute hatred for the Irish and Irish teams but do you personally, GunsGerms, feel that Barnes is corrupt and into match fixing?

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:05 pm

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

I know you think that he has an absolute hatred for the Irish and Irish teams but do you personally, GunsGerms, feel that Barnes is corrupt and into match fixing?

When have I said he hates Irish teams? Look I have said at the worst that he appears to be biased against Ireland and our win loss record when he refs in disproportionatly low but I have said before and Ill say again I dont care if he is actually biased or not. I also dont feel the need to comment on whether he is corrupt or not as this cannot be proved from the settee.

The fact is there tends to be a lot of incidents over the years in Ireland games that he refs. He is the point of debate way too often. There has also been a lot of inconsistency and Ireland have a dire record when he refs. We have often lost to last minute penalties when he refs for innocious fouls while struggling to be awarded similar penalties. Therefore, as a fan why would I want him to ref Ireland games?

by Nachos Jones_1 Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:13 pm

GunsGerms,

I was just interested in what you think as you posted that 'one of these managers has gone as far as to say that he suspects Barnes may be involved in match fixing.' .

Thinks its a reasonable question myself considering that you are the most vocal in your dislike of Barnes.

As I have said on numerous occasions, I find him overly pedantic but consistent. Like all ref's, he will have good days and bad days but I actually feel he is one of the best referee's out there and do not have a problem with him officiating Ireland games.

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:21 pm

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:GunsGerms,

I was just interested in what you think as you posted that 'one of these managers has gone as far as to say that he suspects Barnes may be involved in match fixing.' .

Thinks its a reasonable question myself considering that you are the most vocal in your dislike of Barnes.

As I have said on numerous occasions, I find him overly pedantic but consistent. Like all ref's, he will have good days and bad days but I actually feel he is one of the best referee's out there and do not have a problem with him officiating Ireland games.

If you read the comments in the thread I have said things like:

"I doubt Barnes hates Ireland"

"Cheat is not a word I would use"

...so based on my comments before why ask me if I think he is involved in match fixing. There are a lot of things I do not like for example how twice when Ireland have been playing for a grand slam the same referee has pulled out at the last minute for Barnes to step in and ref the bejaysus out of Ireland but these are just observations.

I honestly cant understand how anyone could possible consider Barnes consistent. If you like him good for you but you must be a bit of a masochist because he penalises Ireland more than any other referee. That is a fact. Our penalty count is above average when he refs and our win ratio below average.

Why in your right mind would you want him to ref us?

by Nachos Jones_1 Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:33 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Nachos Jones_1 wrote:GunsGerms,

I was just interested in what you think as you posted that 'one of these managers has gone as far as to say that he suspects Barnes may be involved in match fixing.' .

Thinks its a reasonable question myself considering that you are the most vocal in your dislike of Barnes.

As I have said on numerous occasions, I find him overly pedantic but consistent. Like all ref's, he will have good days and bad days but I actually feel he is one of the best referee's out there and do not have a problem with him officiating Ireland games.

If you read the comments in the thread I have said things like:

"I doubt Barnes hates Ireland"

"Cheat is not a word I would use"

...so based on my comments before why ask me if I think he is involved in match fixing. There are a lot of things I do not like for example how twice when Ireland have been playing for a grand slam the same referee has pulled out at the last minute for Barnes to step in and ref the bejaysus out of Ireland but these are just observations.

I honestly cant understand how anyone could possible consider Barnes consistent. If you like him good for you but you must be a bit of a masochist because he penalises Ireland more than any other referee. That is a fact. Our penalty count is above average when he refs and our win ratio below average.

Why in your right mind would you want him to ref us?

My apologies, I do not read the entire thread and did not see you post those comments, it just intrigued me when I saw your post claiming that on manager questioned if he was involved in match fixing, who was it by the way?

I am no masochist, I simply have a different opinion than yourself on Barnes.

I do believe that he is consistent and one of the best. As I have previously said, due to so much interpretation in the game a large amount of a teams preparation is to do their homework on the ref and adjust to him. In the recent Wales/Ireland match, I thought that Ireland adjusted to him earlier than Wales and as a result, Wales saw yellows. I simply fail to see how he showed bias against Ireland.

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:40 pm

Graham Henry. Our record with Barnes in charge speaks for itself.

It doesnt matter how much research you conduct on a ref if he doesnt treat both teams the same. The video link on this article is an admittedly fairly clumsy effort to demonstrate this.

I believe that Wayne Barnes is of all referees the most guilty of treating teams differently and there are lots of examples of this.

Read the article on Graham Henry if you wish to understand this better.

by Nachos Jones_1 Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:49 pm

Thanks GunsGerms but I choose to watch the games to form my opinions as in general, people (even managers) can be a little bit bitter after games and say things in the heat of the moment.

I am of the belief that all ref's can be guilty of being inconsistent as the game is far to open for interpretation and as such, do not believe that any ref is particularly biased against any team. Some ref's focus more on certain aspects of the game than others and to be honest, its up to the teams to realise this and adjust accordingly.

If Ireland have a higher penalty account against them when Barnes is the ref then Ireland are guilty of not doing their homework or adjusting to the game situation in my opinion.

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:02 pm

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Thanks GunsGerms but I choose to watch the games to form my opinions as in general, people (even managers) can be a little bit bitter after games and say things in the heat of the moment.

I am of the belief that all ref's can be guilty of being inconsistent as the game is far to open for interpretation and as such, do not believe that any ref is particularly biased against any team. Some ref's focus more on certain aspects of the game than others and to be honest, its up to the teams to realise this and adjust accordingly.

If Ireland have a higher penalty account against them when Barnes is the ref then Ireland are guilty of not doing their homework or adjusting to the game situation in my opinion.

Thats fine and possibly so. I doesnt matter though if he is consciously or subconsciously biased against Ireland or just a really bad referee. In any case it is actually proven that most people are wired to be at the very least subconsciously biased and prejudiced. There are various tests you can do online that demonstrate this. I suggest you may even be quite surprised by the results. Google subconscious bias test or read Malcolm Gladwell's David vs Goliath if you are interested on the subject.

On your second point again the basis of my arguement and examples I have given is that it doesnt matter what homework you have done it is very difficult to win if the official isnt adopting the same approach for both sides.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:05 pm

Guess the big qestion to test this is if Wales and Ireland work out what roll away means.

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Guess the big qestion to test this is if Wales and Ireland work out what roll away means.

I think the topic might be a little over your head 7.5? Why post on this thread if you have nothing to add?

by TJ Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:59 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I believe an example you gave was penalising sides in the 1st half which proved to be incorrect. At this stage you're a very bitter man!

Are you Karl Pilkington?

I believe I gave you lots of examples of about 10 years of games but you dont seem to be able to process the information or just prefer to bury you head in the sand.

Or some of us have a different viewpoint perhaps - I have no issues with him at all.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:07 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Guess the big qestion to test this is if Wales and Ireland work out what roll away means.

I think the topic might be a little over your head 7.5? Why post on this thread if you have nothing to add?

You dont think Ireland will learn then? Dont put your team down so much, Schmidt seemed to get the message across at half time as did Gatland.

by GunsGerms Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:19 pm

TJ wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I believe an example you gave was penalising sides in the 1st half which proved to be incorrect. At this stage you're a very bitter man!

Are you Karl Pilkington?

I believe I gave you lots of examples of about 10 years of games but you dont seem to be able to process the information or just prefer to bury you head in the sand.

Or some of us have a different viewpoint perhaps - I have no issues with him at all.

Are you suggesting I might not be bitter but that I just have a different view?

No issues with that.

by Steve_rugby Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:52 pm

Well done Toulon.

by Pete330v2 Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:08 am

[quote="Nachos Jones_1"]Thanks GunsGerms but I choose to watch the games to form my opinions as in general, people (even managers) can be a little bit bitter after games and say things in the heat of the moment.

I am of the belief that all ref's can be guilty of being inconsistent as the game is far to open for interpretation and as such, do not believe that any ref is particularly biased against any team. Some ref's focus more on certain aspects of the game than others and to be honest, its up to the teams to realise this and adjust accordingly.

Exactly and with most refs teams can do this but with Barnes the goalposts tend to change constantly which leaves the whole thing a lottery some of the time. He's terribly inconsistent IMHO and here lies my problem with him. I keep saying it but we I can't reitterate it enough, we need to clone Nigel Owens for the future of rugby and our own sanity Smile

by No 7&1/2 Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:13 am

Owens has issues as well, everyone does they're human. People praise Owens because he ignores some of the rules some of the time so hardly someone to be held up as consistant. People will find things to hold against refs if they want to and hold bias when they want to.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:16 am

You see, I would be happy to never have my teams reffed by Owens ever again.

Barnes single biggest failing is he reads his emails. Every week refs get instructions from World Rugby about things they have to look out for. Every week it is a different topic, so every week that is what he penalises.

by Pete330v2 Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:56 am

This is true. Human failings are all part of being human and any official in rugby union gets my full admiration as it has to be one of the most difficult sports to officiate. I am simply a fan of a ref who will let the game flow more and allow the players to decide the outcome. Owens is a lot less whistle-happy than most which is my kind of ref I suppose. Others will prefer the pedant who blows up at every misdemeanour. You can't please us all can you ??

by **LondonTiger** Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:17 am

How is enforcing the actual laws being pedantic? and why do we blame the ref for blowing for offences, rather than the cheating ~~shysters~~ players.

Now I agree there are some bad laws, but then the law book should be changed.

by ME-109 Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:52 am

Or he should have left you score another try against France....

by **Notch** Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:How is enforcing the actual laws being pedantic? and why do we blame the ref for blowing for offences, rather than the cheating ~~shysters~~ players.

Because rugby is unique in that enforcing every law correctly actually makes the game both unwatchable and unplayable. The trick of being a good ref is knowing which laws need to be rigorously enforced and which need to be relaxed to let a game breathe.

by Pete330v2 Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:11 pm

LondonTiger wrote:How is enforcing the actual laws being pedantic? and why do we blame the ref for blowing for offences, rather than the cheating ~~shysters~~ players.

Now I agree there are some bad laws, but then the law book should be changed.

There's two ways of looking at it really. Being a pedant myself at times I can understand a ref blowing up every single offence but generally they don't in order to allow the game to flow. It's not the fault of the laws as laws by there very nature are open to interpretation. For example, if every time a player went off his feet in the act of entering a ruck a ref blew up the only thing tired at the end of the match would be the ref's whistle (or at least the little wooden pea). Things are let go all the time in order that the game has a chance to flow as much as it can have pulling our hair out at times.

Perhaps what I really mean is being overly pedantic can kill a game off as opposed to simply being pedantic enough to enforce the laws just enough so that the ref isn't the star of the show.

Make sense? Probably not but it works in my head as do many other things that make no sense to anyone else.

by Cyril Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:14 pm

Notch wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:How is enforcing the actual laws being pedantic? and why do we blame the ref for blowing for offences, rather than the cheating ~~shysters~~ players.

Because rugby is unique in that enforcing every law correctly actually makes the game both unwatchable and unplayable. The trick of being a good ref is knowing which laws need to be rigorously enforced and which need to be relaxed to let a game breathe.

Problem being, nobody agrees consistently on which laws should be ignored (and when). As you see day-in, day-out on this forum and especially when fans have already made their mind up (before a game) that they their side is going to be unfairly treated.

At the end of the day, refs are neutral, fans aren't.

by Pete330v2 Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:34 pm

"At the end of the day, refs are neutral, fans aren't."

Nail head firmly hit

by **Notch** Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:35 pm

Cyril wrote:
Notch wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:How is enforcing the actual laws being pedantic? and why do we blame the ref for blowing for offences, rather than the cheating ~~shysters~~ players.

Because rugby is unique in that enforcing every law correctly actually makes the game both unwatchable and unplayable. The trick of being a good ref is knowing which laws need to be rigorously enforced and which need to be relaxed to let a game breathe.
Problem being, nobody agrees consistently on which laws should be ignored (and when). As you see day-in, day-out on this forum and especially when fans have already made their mind up (before a game) that they their side is going to be unfairly treated.

At the end of the day, refs are neutral, fans aren't.

Indeed. Normally when both sides are equally outraged you've done well.

by Cyril Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:39 pm

Notch wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Notch wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:How is enforcing the actual laws being pedantic? and why do we blame the ref for blowing for offences, rather than the cheating ~~shysters~~ players.

Because rugby is unique in that enforcing every law correctly actually makes the game both unwatchable and unplayable. The trick of being a good ref is knowing which laws need to be rigorously enforced and which need to be relaxed to let a game breathe.
Problem being, nobody agrees consistently on which laws should be ignored (and when). As you see day-in, day-out on this forum and especially when fans have already made their mind up (before a game) that they their side is going to be unfairly treated.

At the end of the day, refs are neutral, fans aren't.

Indeed. Normally when both sides are equally outraged you've done well.

by The Saint Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:40 pm

Cyril wrote:
Notch wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:How is enforcing the actual laws being pedantic? and why do we blame the ref for blowing for offences, rather than the cheating ~~shysters~~ players.

Because rugby is unique in that enforcing every law correctly actually makes the game both unwatchable and unplayable. The trick of being a good ref is knowing which laws need to be rigorously enforced and which need to be relaxed to let a game breathe.
Problem being, nobody agrees consistently on which laws should be ignored (and when). As you see day-in, day-out on this forum and especially when fans have already made their mind up (before a game) that they their side is going to be unfairly treated.

At the end of the day, refs are neutral, fans aren't.

Yep. This is why I feel world rugby will really miss Steve Walsh. He brought a degree of consistency in his interpretations like no other - Joubert take note and stop making up the breakdown laws as you go along.

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