Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad

by 123456789 Sat 21 Mar 2015, 4:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

A. WORLD CUP WARM-UP MATCHES:

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 Irelan10

15 August 2015:Ireland v Scotland, Dublin.

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 Italy_10

22 August 2015: Italy v Scotland, Turin.

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 Scot_f10

29 August 2015: Scotland v Italy, Edinburgh

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 France10

05 September 2015: France v Scotland, Paris

B. WORLD CUP POOL MATCHES

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 Scot_f10

23 September 2015: Scotland V Japan, Kingsholm - Gloucester.

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 Scot_f10

27 September 2015: Scotland v USA, Elland Road - Leeds.

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 Scot_f10

03 October 2015: Scotland v South Africa, St James Park - Newcastle.

Scotland World Cup look ahead and squad - Page 8 Scot_f10

10 October 2015: Scotland v Samoa, St James Park - Newcastle.

C. EXTENDED SCOTLAND SQUAD

- FORWARDS (25) -

Prop (7):
Mike Cusack (Glasgow Warriors) – Uncapped
Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 44 caps; 4 RWC appearances (2007 and 2011)
Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
Willem Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) – Uncapped
Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 8 caps
Jon Welsh (Newcastle Falcons) – 4 caps

Hooker (3):
Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 8 caps
Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 85 caps; 8 RWC appearances (2007 and 2011)
Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) – Uncapped

Second-row (6):
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps
Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps
Richie Gray (Castres) – 44 caps
Jim Hamilton (Saracens) – 61 caps; 6 RWC appearances (2007 and 2011)
Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) – 15 caps
Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 12 caps

Back-row (9):
Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors) – 5 caps
John Barclay (Scarlets) – 43 caps; 4 RWC appearances (2007 and 2011)
Hugh Blake (Glasgow Warriors) – Uncapped
Blair Cowan (London Irish) – 11 caps
David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps
Josh Strauss (Glasgow Warriors) – Uncapped
Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) – 44 caps; 3 RWC appearances (2011)
Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 9 caps
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap

- BACKS (21) -

Scrum-half (4):
Chris Cusiter (Sale Sharks) – 70 caps; 6 RWC appearances (2007 and 2011)
Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Edinburgh Rugby) – 5 caps
Greig Laidlaw (Gloucester) – 39 caps
Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps

Stand-off (3):
Ruaridh Jackson (Wasps) – 25 caps; 3 RWC appearances (2011)
Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 9 caps
Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) – 18 caps

Centre (6):
Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 14 caps
Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps
Duncan Taylor (Saracens) – 12 caps
Richie Vernon (Glasgow Warriors) – 20 caps; 3 RWC appearances (2011)

Back-three (8):
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps
Damien Hoyland (Edinburgh Rugby) – Uncapped
Rory Hughes (Glasgow Warriors) – Uncapped
Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) – 93 caps; 8 RWC appearances (2007 and 2011)
Sean Maitland (London Irish) – 15 caps
Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 17 caps
Greig Tonks (Edinburgh Rugby) – 4 caps
Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 18 caps

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 4:04 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Wilson has certainly redeemed himself since his ban, but he's always been found lacking at International level - he just doesn't have the power. He had a big game in the semi and final but I did notice he didn't make overly many yards in contact with the ball, not least compared to Strauss anyway (Wilson made 4m, Straus 43m according to the stats).

I wouldn't write off Denton yet - we need big ball carriers against SA and Samoa and that is certainly what he gives you. Yes he might not have the all round game of Strauss (no caps) or the athelticism of Ashe (inexperienced) but if you build a balanced back row around him then Denton will certainly do a job.

It is a good position to be in and most people would be happy with any combination of Harley, Strauss, Ashe & Denton (as long as none of them are at 7).

Before Denton got injured he was in great form, it was that Scarlets game where John Barclay was quite anononymous. We can't overlook a player like Barclay but he did not finish strongly for the Scarlets.

I would take a fully fit Denton or Ashe over Strauss at this stage. I would not be comfortable giving Strauss his first cap in the RWC. I don't think he deserves it nor do I think he has been completely proven at club level. He and Wilson put in a good shift on Saturday but neither were electric.

My 30 man World Cup Squad at this precise moment :

Loosies - Dickinson, Reid,
Hooker - Ford, McInally,
Tighthead - Nel, Cross, Welsh (covering loosie if desperate)
Lock - Gray, Gray, Toolis, Gilchrist
6/8 - Harley (covering lock), Denton, Ashe, Brown
7 - Watson, Cowan

9 - Hidalgo-Clyne, Laidlaw (covering Flyhalf if desperate), Pyrgos,
10 - Russell
12/13 - Horne (covering flyhalf), Taylor, Bennett, Scott (Dunbar if Fit)
11/14 - Seymour, Maitland, Visser
15 - Hogg, Tonks (covering Fly Half)

My 1st XV from that lot would look like this (taking injuries into account obviously) :

1 Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Nel
4. Gray
5. Gray
6. Harley
7. Watson (harsh on cowan but Wastson's form has to be rewarded.
8. Denton

9. SHC
10. Russell
11. Visser (tough one here to be honest, none of our uninjured Wings have been brilliant)
12. Horne (Dunbar)
13. Taylor (Bennett)
14. Seymore
15. Hogg

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 4:05 pm

For the record DTH would walk into my Scotland team. Nakarawa was good at the weekend but DTH was superb.

by Weegie Wizard Mon 01 Jun 2015, 4:20 pm

Most of the squad selection will depend on who is fit in time.

Gilchrist, Denton, Dunbar, Bennett, Scott & Maitland are all currently injured but would probably all be picked if fit and in form. Ideally, we would like them to be involved in at least one warm up but Dunbar at least will not be ready in time.

If there is any doubt at all on Denton I would leave him out. With Ashe & Strauss (who would be my 1st back row pick) and maybe even Kellybrows if Cotter likes him again we have good cover for 6/8.
One of Cowan, Watson & Barclay is going to be very disappointed - my money would be on Barclay unfortunately.

by Captain_Sensible Mon 01 Jun 2015, 4:33 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I would not be comfortable giving Strauss his first cap in the RWC. I don't think he deserves it nor do I think he has been completely proven at club level.

I don't wish to be rude, but are you high?

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 4:56 pm

In the first half of the Season I could agree with his selection despite my misgivings for the nature of his inclusion. Overall though I've been unconvinced by his performances. The 1872 cup for me was an Acid test for Strauss coming up against the incumbent Denton (wildly unpopular on here for some reason). IMO he failed that test, being outplayed in the 2nd leg in particular.

For all of Strauss' strengths I have always felt the Glasgow pack was a little flimsy this year. Although he is not exclusively to blame for this.

Even in the pro12 final the Glasgow pack looked quite shakey giving away some key turnovers. The backs however were superb.

As for the Residency and Nationality rule that is another matter. Imagine how a guy like Ashe would feel, after all he has done for his country is overtaken by Strauss parachuted in.

Ashe was a guy who was on the McPhail Scholarship, withdrawn from the said scholarship and fed to the Lions in South Africa.

Even if Strauss was absolutely brilliant in every facet of the game, his inclusion over somebody like Ashe wouldn't sit right with me.

I would also add Nel to that bracket but we are desperate for a quality tighthead.

Cotter however has other options in the backrow.

by Captain_Sensible Mon 01 Jun 2015, 5:06 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:In the first half of the Season I could agree with his selection despite my misgivings for the nature of his inclusion. Overall though I've been unconvinced by his performances. The 1872 cup for me was an Acid test for Strauss coming up against the incumbent Denton (wildly unpopular on here for some reason). IMO he failed that test, being outplayed in the 2nd leg in particular.

For all of Strauss' strengths I have always felt the Glasgow pack was a little flimsy this year. Although he is not exclusively to blame for this.

Even in the pro12 final the Glasgow pack looked quite shakey giving away some key turnovers. The backs however were superb.

As for the Residency and Nationality rule that is another matter. Imagine how a guy like Ashe would feel, after all he has done for his country is overtaken by Strauss parachuted in.

Ashe was a guy who was on the McPhail Scholarship, withdrawn from the said scholarship and fed to the Lions in South Africa.

Even if Strauss was absolutely brilliant in every facet of the game, his inclusion over somebody like Ashe wouldn't sit right with me.

I would also add Nel to that bracket but we are desperate for a quality tighthead.

Cotter however has other options in the backrow.

I get your concerns re the qualification criteria, but do you feel the same about Visser? Should he have ever been capped?

I completely disagree with your assessment of Strauss's qualities on the pitch. He had a massive game against Munster. He sat down CJ Stander, one of the best 8s in the league, in the opening minutes and set the tone for the rest of the match. In open play, Glasgow's pack was clearly in the ascendent, and Strauss made huge yardage, often in heavy traffic. In fact, he has continually put Glasgow on the front foot throughout the last three seasons, in the Pro12 and in Europe. He covers a huge amount of ground in defence, so much so that Glasgow didn't miss Harley in the two games vs Ulster.

How can you discount all that in favour of one slightly sub-par performance against your favourite team (and I say this as an Edinburgh man)? It doesn't make sense. Strauss has nothing to prove with regard to his playing abilities. Absolutely nothing,

by **RDW** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 5:13 pm

Strauss was definitely quiet from around February - April, and certainly wasn't hitting his usual heights.

His performances in the season run-in have been excellent though, particularly in the semi and final.

by Nematode Mon 01 Jun 2015, 5:48 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I would take a fully fit Denton or Ashe over Strauss at this stage. I would not be comfortable giving Strauss his first cap in the RWC. I don't think he deserves it nor do I think he has been completely proven at club level. He and Wilson put in a good shift on Saturday but neither were electric.

You are talking about Josh Strauss?

Can't be bothered arguing about whether he deserves it as you're just wrong, sorry. Actually a bit insulting to him after he's potentially given up a SA cap to play for Scotland.

On Ashe coming off the scholarship, well look at him now. Got international caps and is probably heading to the RWC.

by 123456789 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 5:59 pm

Training squad's announced tomorrow. I was going to suggest a game where we all guessed how the squad but I fast realised anyone who plays pro rugby from Scotland except Kelly Brown and Ally Hogg is probably up for selection.

by **George Carlin** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 6:04 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I would not be comfortable giving Strauss his first cap in the RWC. I don't think he deserves it nor do I think he has been completely proven at club level.

I don't wish to be rude, but are you high?

by Weegie Wizard Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:13 pm

123456789 wrote:Training squad's announced tomorrow. I was going to suggest a game where we all guessed how the squad but I fast realised anyone who plays pro rugby from Scotland except Kelly Brown and Ally Hogg is probably up for selection.

Any idea how big the training squad is?

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:16 pm

Strauss had a good game in the final, but he IMO hasn't done enough to be parachuted into the squad in front of other guys.

Visser was a different case. Visser's competition was Lamont, Walker and Max Evans.

Strauss has some real quality competition in the back row. Other guys are more versatile and more deserving IMO.

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:19 pm

It should not be based on how much we need the player - it should be about who wants to play for scotland and make scotland their home

I think the criteria are much to lenient. However we have what we have.

I think tho you can only really judge in hindsight - Sean Lineen - an import who made scotland his home and has been a great servant to the scots game. Good guy!
Brendon Laney - scuttled off again as soon as he was dropped - in the immortal words of chewin the fat - w***

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:21 pm

I do rate Strauss, perhaps I'm allowing my personal feelings cloud my judgement. Strauss coming in front of guys like Kelly Brown, Barclay, Denton, Ashe, Harley, Grant just doesn't sit right with me.

Make no mistake, one of those guys will have to miss out to give Strauss a shot.

by **RDW** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:22 pm

TJ wrote:

I think tho you can only really judge in hindsight - Sean Lineen - an import who made scotland his home and has been a great servant to the scots game. Good guy!
Brendon Laney - scuttled off again as soon as he was dropped - in the immortal words of chewin the fat - w***

To be fair to laney, he's got 76 caps for Edinburgh so put in a decent shift for them!

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:27 pm

I don't care - as soon as it became clear he was no longer getting international games he left an returned to the antipodes. NO feeling for scotland at all - it was merely a flag of convenience for him as he wasn't good enough to play for his real country. I would NEVER take players like him

will Strauss stay? I doubt it

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:29 pm

I think anyone who wants to play for scotland should be able to quote chewin' the fat and be able to sing at least 3 songs from the proclaimers or Wet wet wet

by **RDW** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:30 pm

This is completely off topic now, but what we're his circumstances when he left?

If he wasn't offered a new deal and has work back home he was hardly going to stay...

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:34 pm

Lineen did not get a job in rugby straight away when he retired from playing. He worked for a newspaper for a while and did other bits and pieces. He made scotland his home - he didn't go home because he was already at home in Scotland - thats ther difference.

by **BigGee** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 7:49 pm

Josh Strauss has played for Glasgow for 3 years and has just signed up for another 2. He could easily have headed off to France to make some mega bucks and still been elegible to play for Scotand in this WC. If he gets capped this time, then it will be because he will have deserved it and I doubt any of his team mates would begrudge it. If he is the standard of an international back row player, then that is what they need to aim for to play international rugby!

The rules are what they are and everyone plays by the same ones. It does seem a particularly Scottish trait to have so much angst about players lack of racial purity. I live in England and it really does not seem to bother people as much down here. All of the different nationalities that have played for England get a much warmer welcome. All people look to see is that they want to play for their adoptive country. I don't sense any great wailing and gnashing of teeth in France or Ireland either.

Strauss, Nel, Visser and any others who have qualified by residency will no doubt be very proud to play for Scotland and i will be very proud to support them.

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 8:08 pm

Its not racial purity big gee - its about making scotland your home and being one of "the people of Scotland"

I have no problem with people like Lineen and Denton who clearly have made Scotland their home. I cannot stand mercenaries like Laney who eff off as soon as they can

by reallybored Mon 01 Jun 2015, 9:04 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I would take a fully fit Denton or Ashe over Strauss at this stage. I would not be comfortable giving Strauss his first cap in the RWC. I don't think he deserves it nor do I think he has been completely proven at club level. He and Wilson put in a good shift on Saturday but neither were electric.

Pro 12 Dream Team 2014/15 No. 8 = Josh Strauss

Not sure how anyone can think he's not completely proven at club level.

He will make a huge difference to our team, always providing momentum.

by 123456789 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 9:09 pm

Like most things it's very unique to each individual, you've got to see the personal circumstances. For all we know Lineen met a Scottish girl and settled down with her whereas Laney had a wife/girlfriend at home in New Zealand. These choices aren't really related to nationality.

Furthermore I suspect Sean Maitland's move to London Irish probably had a great deal of emphasis on its proximity to London and therefore making it easier for him to see family and friends. I live in England and have no intention of returning to Scotland anytime soon, it doesn't mean I feel any affinity at all to England. That said Lineen seems a top guy and I do completely understand why the idea of Strauss above Barclay, Denton, Brown, Beattie, Hogg, Ashe or Wilson doesn't sit right with me either but there's a fine line between principles and pragmatism. I think the idea of organised "project players" is awful and should be scrapped, if a player qualifies after playing for three years for a club and committing everything to the cause then I'm fine with that but actively whoring out our national team to people who just want to play for international rugby for personal gain sickens me.

Also from a pragmatic point of view when you consider that for all the project players across the three years we probably fork out at least 2 million and then think of what you could do by investing 100,000 in 20 schools to play rugby. Not just for our national team but for clubs and people across Scotland.

by alexgmacdonald Mon 01 Jun 2015, 9:22 pm

To weigh in on the Josh Strauss issue...

He has 2 things that any of the other backrowers don't seem to have masses of

- The ability to carry the ball through a brick wall
- Leadership

It was so obvious in the 6N that we needed a leader, I'm not saying making him captain, but when the chips are down, he's the kind of guy that would take responsibility and break some walls down for you.

Do I think that he deserves to be in the Scotland squad? 100% Yes.

by **BigGee** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 9:47 pm

TJ wrote:Its not racial purity big gee - its about making scotland your home and being one of "the people of Scotland"

I have no problem with people like Lineen and Denton who clearly have made Scotland their home. I cannot stand mercenaries like Laney who eff off as soon as they can

TJ, it was somewhat different in Lineen's and to some extent Laney's, they were not professional players the way todays internationals are and neither qualified on the basis of residency. They certainly had to make choices about what they had to do with their lives after rugby. If Lineen could have made a better living playing away from Scotland in his day, then he would likely have taken that route as well and you would not have blamed him for that.

Denton may well leave Edinburgh when his next contract renewal comes up (some would say that would be a good move for him), then he may never come back either. He lives here now because it is where he plies his trade.

The point I am trying to make is that much to much emotion is put into this issue in Scotland much more so than in England and France who seem able to accept a multi cultural team with a lot more ease than we do. I am sure that lots of different conclusions can be drawn from that but I don't have any interest in analysing it, I just find it a bit of a shame. As I said before, then rules are the rules and actually very few players have, or will in the future qualify on the basis of residency. At the end of the day though, if they have come to play in Scotland and put their heart and soul into it, as have Nel and Strauss they have every bit as much right to play for Scotland as anyone else who qualifies on the basis of ancestry. Like it or not, 3 years can be a long time in the career of a professional rugby player, who is only ever one game away from a career ending injury.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 01 Jun 2015, 9:55 pm

I would pick Strauss. I have questioned it in the past (particularly when his form dipped this year), but it comes down to ability and form, and he has both.

The squad is to be 31, and with current form and predicted injuries here's mine:

1. Dickinson and Reid
2. Ford, Brown and McInally (covering back row)
3. Nel, Welsh (covers both sides) and Cross
4. J Gray and Gilchrist
5. R Gray and B Toolis
6. Harley
7. Cowan and Watson
8. Strauss (covering 6) and Ashe
9. H-C, Laidlaw and Pyrgos
10. Russell and Weir
11. Seymour and Visser
12. Dunbar and Horne (covering 10)
13. Bennett and Taylor
14. Maitland (covering 15) and Fife
15. Hogg

Injured (and would have made it): Denton (Ashe), Jackson (Weir) and Scott (Weir).
Injury cover: Hamilton (for Gilchrist) and Vernon (for Dunbar or Bennett)

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 9:59 pm

Denton may leave Scotland to play but he has made his home here for a good few years and I am sure he would come back

Its not about ethnicity - its about playing for the country you love

I agree these folk are entitled to play but for me it should be about making scotland your home not about 1 granny or 3 years residency or even worse - being a channel islander so you can choose any of the home nations

You cannot get to play for France or England unless you are really top quality. To play for scotland the bar is set lower so we get folk like pountney who knew he wasn't good enough to play for england so he chose scotland. I don't want folk playing for scotland because they can't get into the all blacks, SA or England. I want them to play for scotland because they love scotland

by **BigGee** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:31 pm

TJ wrote:Denton may leave Scotland to play but he has made his home here for a good few years and I am sure he would come back

How on earth can you say that with any certainty. He is a young man with his whole life ahead of him, he will go where his life takes him. I often thought that I would come back to live in Scotland when I was younger, my family left when I was 5. I am not young any more and I have never made it back and I don't imagine now I ever will. My life, like most peoples has been a journey and I have no great regrets about where it has taken me.

Its not about ethnicity - its about playing for the country you love

I agree these folk are entitled to play but for me it should be about making scotland your home not about 1 granny or 3 years residency or even worse - being a channel islander so you can choose any of the home nations

You cannot get to play for France or England unless you are really top quality. To play for scotland the bar is set lower so we get folk like pountney who knew he wasn't good enough to play for england so he chose scotland. I don't want folk playing for scotland because they can't get into the all blacks, SA or England. I want them to play for scotland because they love Scotland

All massively idealistic. Lots of people in todays world and in all honesty in the past as well have multi cultural identities and fell an affinity towards many nationalities. My own children have Scottish, Italian and English affinities and are quite comfortable with all of them.

So Budge Poultney chose to play for Scotland, well I say good, I never remember him giving anything less than 100% for the jersey, I think we were lucky to have him. He was quite good enough to have gotten an English cap at the time.

I also don't see us now as setting the bar lower. Strauss and Nel with Du Preez behind them are players with genuine international potential. Finally we seem to be catching up with the rest of the world in terms of rugby professionalism. It has taken us far to long!

by **BigGee** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:35 pm

I made a right mess with the quotes in my last post and I can't be bothered to try and sort it out!

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:40 pm

Don't worry - I get the point Smile

Dentons mother taught him all about scotland as he was growing up. He came to scotland on his own as soon as he left school to live here. He has made scotland his home

As fgor the lower bar - its a damn sight easier to get into the scotland team than into england SA or NZ as we simply do not have the depth of talent - this is why its more of an issue

As for Pountney - he was slow lazy and never would have been capped by England. Not an international standard player. McGechan thought he was good hence he got fastracked into the side. He was rubbish

by funnyExiledScot Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:40 pm

BigGee wrote:I made a right mess with the quotes in my last post and I can't be bothered to try and sort it out!

Are you Jimbo in disguise??!

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:41 pm

The thing with my view is you cannot really tell until after their playing days if they meet my criteria - unless they can quote half a dozen chewin the fat sketches of course

BTW - I have confused / multiple identities myself being English born with an english name and accent - I consider myself british but scotland is my home

by funnyExiledScot Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:42 pm

TJ wrote:As for Pountney - he was slow lazy and never would have been capped by England. Not an international standard player. McGechan thought he was good hence he got fastracked into the side. He was rubbish

Budge was many things but he was not lazy. His biggest weakness was that he gave away too many penalties, a bit like Cowan.

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:44 pm

I always saw him as slow and lazy. Not a team man. not a hard worker. a glory hunter. He had no affinity for scotland. It was his only chance of playing internationally as he wasn't good enough for England

I could well be doing him an injustice tho

by **BigGee** Mon 01 Jun 2015, 10:48 pm

TJ wrote:I always saw him as slow and lazy. Not a team man. not a hard worker. a glory hunter. He had no affinity for scotland. It was his only chance of playing internationally as he wasn't good enough for England

I could well be doing him an injustice tho

I think you are!

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 11:08 pm

Anyway i have dragged this thread far enough away from the point now I guess.

by Majestic83 Mon 01 Jun 2015, 11:30 pm

TJ wrote:Don't worry - I get the point

Dentons mother taught him all about scotland as he was growing up. He came to scotland on his own as soon as he left school to live here. He has made scotland his home

As fgor the lower bar - its a damn sight easier to get into the scotland team than into england SA or NZ as we simply do not have the depth of talent - this is why its more of an issue

As for Pountney - he was slow lazy and never would have been capped by England. Not an international standard player. McGechan thought he was good hence he got fastracked into the side. He was rubbish

Bit harsh on pountney. Put in some pretty good shifts when scotland won the five nations in 99.

I know the incident with laney coming over wasn't too everyone's taste but at least he stayed around in scotland longer than john Leslie. Laney did a lot of good stuff while he was at edinburgh and was pretty well liked and respected by the rest of the Edinburgh squad.

It's a bit hypocritical when people slate the kiwis/Aussies/South Africans that have come over played in scotland and played for scotland through ancestry, when there are players born and brought up in England who have played for scotland yet never have lived or played in scotland yet there never seems to be anything said about them.

by TJ Mon 01 Jun 2015, 11:40 pm

I would slate anyone who did not make scotland their home. I do not want carpet baggers and mercenaries

laney went south as soon as he was dropped from the international side did he not - and we all thought he was the new prop he was so fat and slow

John Leslie is an odd one. I thought he came to Scotland on a working holiday and played some club rugby then was asked to play for scotland - I don't think he came over to play for scotland but despite being a very good player I would not have him in the side if it was my choice.

I would like to see qualification being made tougher

by Majestic83 Tue 02 Jun 2015, 12:00 am

The Leslie's came over to play for scotland. John had signed a contract in Japan but scotland then told him to come over and he'd get capped.

Laney was dropped by scotland but still stayed and played for edinburgh for another year I think. Only left when his contract wasn't renewed by edinburgh with that decision being influenced by matt williams who had a falling out with laney.

I don't blame these guys going back to where they grew up or else where. Rugby doesn't pay enough for players to put their feet up and relax when they retire, they need to go where the work is.....whether it be in scotland or some far flung place then so be it.

Just because these guys haven't been brought up in scotland doesn't necessarily mean they don't feel Scottish or have a strong connection with the country. Scotland has always had a large amount of people that travel, explore and emigrate overseas and have done for centuries. There are millions of scots living overseas so we should make use of them. Ideally yes the scotland team would be full of scots who have been brought up playing rugby but that is never going to happen with only 2 pro teams.

by madmaccas Tue 02 Jun 2015, 12:00 am

TJ wrote:As for Pountney - he was slow lazy and never would have been capped by England. Not an international standard player. McGechan thought he was good hence he got fastracked into the side. He was rubbish

Wow I have never heard anyone say that about Pountney! Technically he was fantastic. I worked on statistical analysis for Northampton at the time so I can categorically say that he was, by a distance, the hardest working player on the pitch. He covered the most ground, made the most tackles and won the most turnovers out of anyone on the team. He also, more often than, not topped the Premiership charts for all of the above.

He played in every one of Scotland's 1999 5 Nation's winning games, won 31 caps in a truncated career and scored 5 tries. This was all during a time when our back row was easily our strongest part of the team. We're talking about guys like Leslie, Walton, Peters, Taylor, Simpson, Reid, Mather, Mower, White, Petrie and Ross Beattie - yet he was a mainstay.

IMO losing him was one of the biggest mistakes the SRU ever made.

It sounds like your real issue with him is that he grew up and lives in England.

by TJ Tue 02 Jun 2015, 12:15 am

No - my issue with him is twofold. He was a mercenary who only played for Scotland because he wasn't good enough to play for england and he had no affinity for sco0tland and put nothing back into the game here. Few of the fans at the time thought anything of him.

He was only a mainstay cos McGehchan thought he was great he really wasn't that good or he would have had more than 31 caps. As soon as he was dropped and McGehchan went he went back to england

Thats my issue. I grew up in england myself born of english parents. don't you dare accuse me of being racist.. I have nothing against the english. I hate mercenaries and carpet baggers.

by TJ Tue 02 Jun 2015, 12:18 am

Majestic83 wrote:

Just because these guys haven't been brought up in scotland doesn't necessarily mean they don't feel Scottish or have a strong connection with the country. Scotland has always had a large amount of people that travel, explore and emigrate overseas and have done for centuries. There are millions of scots living overseas so we should make use of them. Ideally yes the scotland team would be full of scots who have been brought up playing rugby but that is never going to happen with only 2 pro teams.

I have no issue at allwith folk not being brought up in scotland. I want scots rugby players to play for Scotland for their love of the country - not because its the only international game they can get ''cos they ain't good enough for england ( sa / nz)

are you sure laney stayed on?

by TJ Tue 02 Jun 2015, 12:30 am

TJ wrote:Anyway i have dragged this thread far enough away from the point now I guess.

by madmaccas Tue 02 Jun 2015, 1:46 am

TJ wrote:No - my issue with him is twofold. He was a mercenary who only played for Scotland because he wasn't good enough to play for england and he had no affinity for sco0tland and put nothing back into the game here. Few of the fans at the time thought anything of him.

He was only a mainstay cos McGehchan thought he was great he really wasn't that good or he would have had more than 31 caps. As soon as he was dropped and McGehchan went he went back to england

Thats my issue. I grew up in england myself born of english parents. don't you dare accuse me of being racist.. I have nothing against the english. I hate mercenaries and carpet baggers.

I'm afraid you're mistaken, he wasn't dropped, he quit because of the well documented issues he had with the SRU (which plenty of other players confirmed). He would have had many more caps bar that and then a career ending injury.

You can't just ignore the facts I laid out and then state that he wasn't any good. Statistically he was one of the best players in one of the top clubs in England and achieved more caps than a player like Ross Rennie (whom based on your logic also wasn't that good) for Scotland.

Brandishing him a mercenary is grossly unfair. At that time there were calls from a lot of the press for him to be picked for England, so that doesn't wash. I have no doubt he would have played for England in some capacity. We were very lucky to have him.

Your entire argument seems to be based on a foreign born player staying in a Scotland after their career. So does that make my family somehow less patriotic for choosing to live in England? Is Kenny Logan now less Scottish because he now choosen to live in London? If Mo Farah chooses to live elsewhere when he retires is he no longer English in your eyes (especially as he's Somali born).

What about the current crop of players? Can we only judge Denton, Maitland, Visser, Nel and Strauss after their careers have ended? It's ridiculous.

The fact is none of us know their motivations and how Scottish they feel. In the end it's down to them. If they qualify and choose to play for Scotland then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and I won't go around brandishing people who have bled representing Scotland as mercenaries.

by **George Carlin** Tue 02 Jun 2015, 8:10 am

I really do understand both sides here.

We all want people who were born here and love the country desperately to be the ones who play international matches. However, those people are frequently not the best at their positions and the team would be weakened by selecting them.

It is impossible to generalise about how players feel about playing for Scotland because everyone has a different story and people surprise you all the time. I have met Sean Maitland twice and the first time I really tried to drill down into what his Scottish heritage actually was. I was surprised. His Scottish grandparents' influence on him was genuinely very strong indeed and he grew up with Scottish relatives that cooked local dishes for him, informed him about his Scottish roots (particularly on the literary side) and took time to reconcile the Scottish settler and Maori heritage that he has.

He was delighted to have been capped by Scotland and it genuinely meant a lot to him - he was also hearing murmurs from the NZ press that given his Crusaders form at the time he was being considered for ABs training squads. However, rather than wait around for that - he wanted to do something different that would make him happier. He gave up a potential opportunity (however large or small you believe that may be) to come here. There was an opportunity cost.

You can argue that the rules should not be the way they are and lots of posters from other nations would agree with you. However, we all need to live in the same world as everyone else and not selecting the likes of Strauss, Nel or Visser would be disasterously self defeating. Rather than worrying it will dishearten homeborn Gryffindor Scots, perhaps these young players will use the experience of the imports and try and raise their game to the standard that they now see around them?

We need to punch up, not down. Sport is a brutal meritocracy, like it or not. We want Scottish youngsters to see the team and be inspired as I was in 1990. They deserve it and if that means that a parent needs to explain why a Scottish player is called 'Strauss', then I think I'm okay with that.

by jimbopip Tue 02 Jun 2015, 8:42 am

BigGee wrote:I made a right mess with the quotes in my last post and I can't be bothered to try and sort it out!

Welcome to my world. Hug

by **BigGee** Tue 02 Jun 2015, 9:06 am

jimbopip wrote:
BigGee wrote:I made a right mess with the quotes in my last post and I can't be bothered to try and sort it out!
Welcome to my world.

Its clearly an Essex thing!

by Majestic83 Tue 02 Jun 2015, 9:08 am

TJ wrote:
Majestic83 wrote:

Just because these guys haven't been brought up in scotland doesn't necessarily mean they don't feel Scottish or have a strong connection with the country. Scotland has always had a large amount of people that travel, explore and emigrate overseas and have done for centuries. There are millions of scots living overseas so we should make use of them. Ideally yes the scotland team would be full of scots who have been brought up playing rugby but that is never going to happen with only 2 pro teams.

I have no issue at allwith folk not being brought up in scotland. I want scots rugby players to play for Scotland for their love of the country - not because its the only international game they can get ''cos they ain't good enough for england ( sa / nz)

are you sure laney stayed on?

So what about those people who have emigrated and live outside scotland. They will have children who potentially will not grow up in scotland. If they played for scotland would you slate them as well? Look at some of the people on this site who live and work abroad, they are some of the most passionate scots on here and would no doubt install the Scottish passion in their kids.

I think it's very poor to slate some of these players just because they haven't been brought up in scotland, you don't know their upbringing or how how "Scottish" they have been brought up.

Instead slating and slagging these players off get behind them and support them as they are still pulling on the scotland Jersey.
It's not their fault scotland couldn't currently pick a squad full of scots born and raised players that would be competitive. The reality is scotland only has two pro teams which is extremely small player base so need to cast their net further. Many of these players brought up in other countries do consider themselves Scottish though.

As for laney, he played his last test in 04 and stayed at edinburgh till the summer of 05!

by TJ Tue 02 Jun 2015, 9:12 am

Majestic - thats not what i said. Its nothing to do with where they were born and brought up - its about love of scotland and making Scotland their home. The post you quote even says that. If they consider themselves (part) scottish its fine. I have no issue with the links of Denton, Maitland and Lineen. I have huge issues with the likes of Laney and Poutney

by jimbopip Tue 02 Jun 2015, 9:13 am

GC, yet again you strike a note of sanity. Thank you.
"Feeling Scottish" , or any other nationality, is a strange concept. I've said it before but I'll reiterate; all three of my children were born in England of Scottish parents and all three have varying feelings about their scottishness.
Princess Daughter has no real sense of being Scottish it's just a place where her relatives live. (Mind you for an extremely intelligent young woman she is quite special: when choosing a university she ruled out Bristol on the grounds that it would be very difficult to pop home on the weekends "all the way from Ireland")
Bigson, however, has researched the family tree and was so impressed that we are descended from Stornoway crofters that he now uses McSween as his middle name on Facebook.
Young Pipetto wants to play rugby for Scotland and Glasgow: he also wants to play football for England and Arsenal.

Are they all equally Scottish? If Princess daughter was asked to represent Scotland at any sport would I advise her to say no because it would not mean that much to her? If Bigson was selected for England would I not be a proud father?

And for the posters here who , like myself, choose not to live in Scotland: are we not being mercenary by putting earning a living above staying in the country we love?

I'm sorry if I've muddied the waters but national identity is not just deeply personal but also extremely illogical, captain.

Finally, on our last sojourn north Princess Daughter commented on how as we got closer to Ayr the accents got thicker.
MrsPip said, "What, the staff in the service stations?"
"No" replied the Princess "You and dad. As soon as we get near the border you begin sounding more Scottish.Then when we head back home it changes again."

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