Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

WHAT? Hello Lord Dowlais - reality is calling................................

Have you got a tin foil hat?

Anyway, I'm off to the club now to watch the game, so I will speak to you all later.

I've been asking myself the same question as Fly.

Do Guinness need to raise their profile in Ireland?

I will wear my tin foil hat as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:LD, if the blazers in the Pro12 wanted to keep the final in Ireland, then they would have been better off just leaving things as they were.

What evidence do you have that the blazers who run the Pro12 want to keep the final in Ireland?

Do you believe Guinness are behind this? Are you now bemoaning Guinness coming in as sponsors?

A far as I'm aware, there were only 2 teams competing for the final venue - Glasgow and Ulster. Ospreys didn't want it, and stated that they will wait and see how this years does. Whoever does host the final will want to be sure that they sell enough tickets to cover costs. Something which Ulster did with ease.

Ospreys did not bother as they knew they would not get it, they put demands into staging the final that could not be met by anybody else, like a minimum amount of five star hotels within a few miles of the stadium ect. I am not bemoaning Guinness either, I am very happy to have them putting money into our league, but they need to be kept happy, and that is why I THINK the league is geared up to favour the Irish.

Because Guinness is our sponsor, and the brand being linked to Ireland is enough to make you think that they will only be happy if the final is always hosted in Ireland? That's pretty shallow, LD.

Yes, I've read about the 5 star criteria, and from a quick search, I think Wales just about squeezes in. You claim that Ospreys didn't bother because they knew they would not get it. Any link too this Ospreys statement? I haven't read it. I have read that they will see how this years does before competing to host the final.

I have read that Ospreys were against the principle of moving posts halfway through the season so didn't bother competing for the final venue.

VinceWLB wrote:I have read that Ospreys were against the principle of moving posts halfway through the season so didn't bother competing for the final venue.

Yes, I think I have read the same. If they had a real issue with accepting it mid-season then fair enough. I'm not sure how much truth there is in Pro12 actually moving the goal posts halfway through though.

SecretFly wrote:I don't think the sponsors care where the final is.  

Obviously the best use of sponsorship is Spreading the word of a company, not simply re-selling it over and over to people already Sold Out  - as in Guinness doesn't need the excite the Irish market that is already well in tune with the 'pleasures ' of the black stuff.  Selling the brand identity in other places if where they potentially generate most 'growth'.

So the argument doesn't stand in a marketing sense.  

Not strictly true SF. Years ago Guinness had half the beer market in Ireland, and some very mediocre advertising - four men in Arran sweaters just off the boat and having a pint. They decided they didn't need to advertise in Ireland any longer but within a matter of months their market share had dropped to 25%. Of course they woke up pdq and produced some of the most iconic advertising in the world as a result - remember the 3 minute surf add with the girl in the orange bikini?

There is a real risk that the health lobby will impose tighter and tighter restrictions on alcohol advertising, so just like tobacco before them they are trying to associate themselves with healthy pursuits like sport. Guinness are looking for sports connectivity rather than be especially location specific.

It wouldn't really matter to Guinsess where the final was as long as it was a full venue with lots of Guiness Point of Sale in the ground. Their real target is the tv market - not the 18K who they will go to the game. They would be looking for access to the venue so they could dress it properly as well a few days in advance (which might rule out a few stadia who share with football clubs, greyhound tracks or with the RDS who stage trade shows/exhibitions there all the time).

The 5 Star Hotels would probably be required for their corporate entertainment.

Guinness do plenty of marketing now.  They don't need exclusive Irish venues to market a product to an Irish audience or any other audience in this internet age.

But I think the reason that Guinness and companies like Heineken want links to sport are much more prosaic than linking their products to healthy pursuits.  I think it much more likely they realise the big market for watching Satellite Sports in pubs  

"Great Try!!!!  What are you having? - Oh that'll be a Guinness Pro12 pint for me thanks"  

So Ospreys didn't go for it because they didn't have enough five star hotels nearby their stadium and this was used as a barrier to prevent them bidding?

Really?

I mean really?

Guinness is a UK/Ireland brand - it has already got a long heritage in sponsoring sport in Britain, including rugby. It knows which side of its bread it likes to have buttered.

Guinness are pragmatic and business-like. So when they got involved with the league, I'm sure a few of their head marketeers would have asked basic questions such "now how do we get bang for our buck from this venture?". And part of the response would have been around the Grand Final. So they would have said - ok here's what we'd want around the Grand Final in terms of promotions, community engagement, corporate hosting, TV promos, media profile, etc. I say this from experience as opposed to off the top of my head. It's also in the Pro12's interest too since the greater profile and brand value the league garners, the more appeal it has to sponsors, business backers, etc.

So I suspect that the Pro12/Guinness put their requirements on the table and indicated that's what they expected the clubs to deliver. Glasgow were up for it and submitted a proposal. Ospreys didn't cos they probably took a pragmatic business decision and said "we probably wouldn't be able to deliver the numbers of people, and associated spending", so let's see how it goes this year, and we can bid next year. All very pragmatic and business-like. Belfast were up for it too, and got behind the club, because that's the kind of wider support you need to start creating for these kind of events if you want to build a brand. So Belfast/Ulster will set the bar this year - low or high remains to be seen. I'm hoping it's high because that means more revenue, more support for the LEAGUE, not just Irish rugby.

Lastly, if the PRO12 really wanted to be keeping Guinness happy cos of their Irishness, then surely Munster or Leinster should have put in a bid?

I mean let's face it, they don't know how to even pull a pint up here fergodsake.

Anyways - leaving aside all that parochial nonsense, Chunky's basic point remains. The Pro12 is undervalued, poorly branded, and undermined by the actions of its participating clubs. It needs to get its act together - collectively.

I think it suffers from lack of a strong identity, what and who its meant to represent (Celtic Rugby/Celtic League persists as a name despite the Italians involvement. It does not present itself as a coherent, unified brand/entity that is supposedly run by unions, but not really because Welsh rugby regions are in the control of private interests, and the Irish provinces seem to be heading somewhat in that direction.

There's work to be done - by all parties.

Sin é wrote:Pot Hole - I listened to the Mick Dawson interview. He gave the reason for the need to rebrand the Pro12 as being down to all the infighting recently. A major component of the rebranding is that the Welsh Regions will have to undo all the damage they have done with their continued rubishing of the Pro12.

Did he give that as the reason, Sin é?. I don't recall it well enough. Can you remember the quote he gave?

Pot hale - sorry thats not how I see it.

Undervalued? Market value is low surely - perhaps that can be changed but value is what people will pay for it

Poorly branded - how could it be improved? Again I don't see how its poorly branded at all.

Its got a very strong identity.

I agree th eWelsh with thir continual knocking of it is unhelpful but it produces a great product overall.

Munster would not have got it because Thomond Park is hosting Ireland v Barbarians on Thur 28 May in Thomond Park (Pro 12 Final is on Sat 30th May in Belfast).

Oh and Lord D., how do you explain Guinness launching their sponsorship of the league in their HQ in London?

Pot Hale wrote:

Sin é wrote:Pot Hole - I listened to the Mick Dawson interview. He gave the reason for the need to rebrand the Pro12 as being down to all the infighting recently. A major component of the rebranding is that the Welsh Regions will have to undo all the damage they have done with their continued rubishing of the Pro12.

Did he give that as the reason, Sin é?.  I don't recall it well enough.  Can you remember the quote he gave?

I can't remember the exact quote, but he used the word 'infighting'.

Sin é wrote:Pot Hole - I listened to the Mick Dawson interview. He gave the reason for the need to rebrand the Pro12 as being down to all the infighting recently. A major component of the rebranding is that the Welsh Regions will have to undo all the damage they have done with their continued rubishing of the Pro12.

Chunky take note.

Secondly, he said that the Aviva Premieship (through McCafferty) have no interest in a B&I League. However, he said that talking to the clubs themselves privately they say they would like to be in a league with Munster, Leinster & Ulster because (take note Chunky) of the huge support they have.

i.e., the Welsh Regions will need to bring something to the table if they want this B&I league.

You've completely twisted his words here Sin to fit your own argument, and in doing so lose all respect. On your first point, he says nothing about Welsh infighting damaging the image of the league. He never mentions the welsh once. He said internal league infighting, which could be the arguments over Europe or could be to do with moving the goal posts over the final. The Welsh stuff has not been league infighting, it's Welsh infighting, which he doesn't even mention. So you've assumed and jumped to conclusions. Poor analysis.

On your second point, he said that Mark McCafferty is happy with the English Premiership but privately some of the club owners would like to play in a league with the 3 Irish sides due to big attendances. But he never implies or mentions that it would JUST be those 3 Irish teams an no-one else from the Pro12. He was simply saying that some of the English clubs privately seem to like the B&I idea even if McCafferty doesn't.

Here's the interview:

http://downtheblindside.com/episode-20/

The only infighting is amongst the welsh or the welsh over the euro cup. Everyone else is solid both publicly and privately - so Sin is correct.

TJ wrote:The only infighting is amongst the welsh or the welsh over the euro cup.  Everyone else is solid both publicly and privately - so Sin is correct.

No, there has been infighting over the final. And also over the split and generation of tv income.

Really ? I have not heard or seen any at all. None. Links?

Listen to the interview and make up your own mind. If you think he is implicating the Welsh in tarnishing the brand of the league, then let me know the time of the podcast so I can have a re-listen. But he never mentions us once.

No - you put up some proof of this infighting you claim is happening.

griff wrote:
You've completely twisted his words here Sin to fit your own argument, and in doing so lose all respect. On your first point, he says nothing about Welsh infighting damaging the image of the league. He never mentions the welsh once. He said internal league infighting, which could be the arguments over Europe or could be to do with moving the goal posts over the final. The Welsh stuff has not been league infighting, it's Welsh infighting, which he doesn't even mention. So you've assumed and jumped to conclusions. Poor analysis.

The only infighting has been coming from Wales - we have had the WRU and Welsh Regions infighting and then we have the Welsh Regions threatening to leave the Pro12 and join the English premiership. Of course the English went along with this because it suited their European agenda.

Griff wrote:On your second point, he said that Mark McCafferty is happy with the English Premiership but privately some of the club owners would like to play in a league with the 3 Irish sides due to big attendances. But he never implies or mentions that it would JUST be those 3 Irish teams an no-one else from the Pro12. He was simply saying that some of the English clubs privately seem to like the B&I idea even if McCafferty doesn't.

You are clutching at straws now Griff. The English clubs have no interest in having the Welsh regions in the English Premiership because they bring nothing to the table (unlike the Irish Provinces). In fact, it probably suits the English clubs because they can pick off the best Welsh players cheaply if the Welsh Regions are kept poor.

Sin é wrote:

griff wrote:
You've completely twisted his words here Sin to fit your own argument, and in doing so lose all respect. On your first point, he says nothing about Welsh infighting damaging the image of the league. He never mentions the welsh once. He said internal league infighting, which could be the arguments over Europe or could be to do with moving the goal posts over the final. The Welsh stuff has not been league infighting, it's Welsh infighting, which he doesn't even mention. So you've assumed and jumped to conclusions. Poor analysis.

The only infighting has been coming from Wales - we have had the WRU and Welsh Regions infighting and then we have the Welsh Regions threatening to leave the Pro12 and join the English premiership. Of course the English went along with this because it suited their European agenda.

Griff wrote:On your second point, he said that Mark McCafferty is happy with the English Premiership but privately some of the club owners would like to play in a league with the 3 Irish sides due to big attendances. But he never implies or mentions that it would JUST be those 3 Irish teams an no-one else from the Pro12. He was simply saying that some of the English clubs privately seem to like the B&I idea even if McCafferty doesn't.

You are clutching at straws now Griff. The English clubs have no interest in having the Welsh regions in the English Premiership because they bring nothing to the table (unlike the Irish Provinces). In fact, it probably suits the English clubs because they can pick off the best Welsh players cheaply if the Welsh Regions are kept poor.

I don't want the Welsh clubs to join the English league, I don't believe they ever will and I don't believe the English want us. I haven no agenda there. So not sure what straws I'm clutching at. I'm Mr Pro 12. I f*cking love it. No league beef here. But I'm merely pointing out that you are twisting the words of Dawson from that interview to suit your argument. Which you are.

TJ wrote:No - you put up some proof of this infighting you claim is happening.  

Google it yourself, you work shy fop.

Oi - just 'cos I am an Edinburgh supporter and we are the most beautiful team in world rugby that does not make me a fop - and workshy? I ain't from the west ;-)

The straw you are clutching is your denial that the carry-on in the Welsh regions is one of the main reasons why the Pro12 isn't as highly regarded as it should. You may personally like it, but I haven't seen the need for the local press in Ireland or Scotland to run articles about how the Welsh should stop giving out about the Pro12 (Wales on Line).

Sin é wrote:The straw you are clutching is your denial that the carry-on in the Welsh regions is one of the main reasons why the Pro12 isn't as highly regarded as it should. You may personally like it, but I haven't seen the need for the local press in Ireland or Scotland to run articles about how the Welsh should stop giving out about the Pro12 (Wales on Line).

Mick Dawson still didn't say it in that interview. Stop squirming.

Griff wrote:

Sin é wrote:The straw you are clutching is your denial that the carry-on in the Welsh regions is one of the main reasons why the Pro12 isn't as highly regarded as it should. You may personally like it, but I haven't seen the need for the local press in Ireland or Scotland to run articles about how the Welsh should stop giving out about the Pro12 (Wales on Line).

Mick Dawson still didn't say it in that interview. Stop squirming.

He was hardly going to say that publicly and add fuel to the infighting. Not very hard to read between the lines though.

It is with the lines he gave. You need to guess and jump to conclusions otherwise.

Evidence based arguments is what we like on here!

Do we???????????????

That's a Very New Rule I'm not sure the locals will take to such stringent attention to facts.

Extracts from Dawson interview:

On TV deals in other leagues and threats it poses for Leinster.

"It's not just a Leinster problem. It's a Pro12 problem. It's a problem for all clubs... in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. It needs a makeover for the overall brand. And do a better TV deal. We need to attack the tv market, probably through the UK..... problem for the clubs and the international teams.....We need the Welsh clubs to make serious effort to get players back from France and England. We need the Scottish clubs, particularly Edinburgh to up their game in terms of competitiveness and the people that go through the turnstiles.
But I think the big action for us is the makeover of the brand of the Pro12 and also the sponsorship and Tv arrangements that are currently in place.
And it's been difficult because the internal wranglings in recent years haven't helped to give us a credible product really."

On the point of views of PRL vs individual clubs re B&I league:

"If you talk to individual club chief executives they would tell you they would love to be in a league where they would play Ulster, Munster and Leinster. I think they feel what we would bring to the party would be good crowds in the UK and good crowds at home here."

On European Cup

"I think with the money now flowing into game, and post World Cup with the amount of overseas players that are going to flood north, it's going to be harder and harder for us, obviously there's only 20 teams now, which means it's more competitive. I still think the likes of Munster, Ulster, Glasgow and Ospreys are going to be there or thereabouts, but it's up to us now over the next 2-3 years, to commercialise the Pro12 particularly through the TV. If we don't do that, I think we're going to struggle to compete."

He has a cheek talking about Edinburgh upping their game in terms of competitiveness after tonight....

Thanks, PH.

As someone observed above, Mick Dawson isn't going to add fuel to the fire by finger pointing on the wrangling.  Nonetheless, he was happy enough to point at what he thinks the Welsh and Scots need to do.  But not the Italians.

But leaving that aside, the PRo12 is undervalued, but needs a makeover before they can bring it to market.  Unfortunately, the two journalists didn't think to ask what he meant by that.

The brand of the Pro12 is not where it should be in his view.  And I'd share that view.   It's good that Sky have come on board to paper over some of the cracks, but its lack of appeal in some of its own domestic markets, the external public perceptions of wrangling amongst the constituent unions/owners, the endless arguments and outright obduracy over the European deal - whether valid or not - have not helped.  It is seen as the poor relation in market terms, in population, in crowd appeal and ultimately in receiving or being deserving of greater financial support through commercial deals in sponsorship and TV revenues.

And I'd argue that all fans on here of the relevant Pro12 clubs on here have a role to play in that makeover too.
Is it just the bread and butter? is it just a development league? Is it just a stepping stone to play in Europe? Or does it have its own intrinsic value and appeal, so that whether the final is played in Belfast or Glasgow or Swansea or Rome, fans will go and make the effort to support their team because it matters?

PS - I think Chunky's post is one of the best on here all season. It's pithy, gets to the point, and gives rise to a good debate that's actually worthwhile having about the league we support - or should be supporting week in, week out.

A debate that might usefully find the common grounds of agreement amongst fans as opposed to the needless pointing fingers of difference.

I disagree really Pot. chunky has an agenda of hating the pro 12 and constantly denigrating it and paranoia about slights on the welsh.

The only infighting is amongst the welsh adn from the PRW.

TJ wrote:I disagree really Pot.  chunky has an agenda of hating the pro 12 and constantly denigrating it and paranoia about slights on the welsh.

The only infighting is amongst the welsh adn from the PRW.  

But that's playing the man, not the ball. I think the point he raises is an entirely valid one and perfectly in tune with recent comments from some of the top CEOs in the league.

And frankly, where the internal wrangling occurs is irrelevant. It just needs to stop - certainly publicly. If people have disagreements about matters, fine - have it out behind closed doors - not have them pursued and inevitably skewed through public media.

Its showing its a daft post from a man who has history of hating the pro 12. Numerous posts stating how he hates it and what a micky mouse league it is -= quite honestly its tiresome. I usually block him for this very reason. . the only wrangling comes out of wales - find a single piece from ireland scotland or Italy ( bar Italy winning the point over pay to play which did not need to be made public)

I don't know what a new 'branding' would mean.  I'd assume the only 'branding' that will work is better games and better crowds all through the league.

That will be difficult as before all the crowds and great games must come the truly great squads to keep the games going (even when International players are away on International duty or getting their needed breaks during the year) - and great squads require money to buy them as they won't immediately pop up from such small player pools.  

So in a sense, talk becomes cheap, because the problem remains the same problem (even for Irish Provinces that have sustained a degree of competitiveness for a long enough time in both League and Europe.)  
It's the power of Squads rather than Teams that will be the true test of worth into the future in League and in Europe.  

With France practically salary capless in all but name and Aviva really giving itself more and more reasons to quit its capping shackles too - the fringe countries in Pro12 will find it very very difficult to sustain Squads of sufficient quality to compete unless they keep buying from abroad.  But that becomes the dangerous Catch 22 because as soon as you 'employ' your needs rather than 'train' up your requirements, you weaken the indigenous Player Pool even more. You make the Pool smaller in size and quality.

So I'd say talking is easy - finding Practical routes to success on the Rugby Field itself is where the 'Brand' will prove itself - the fluff of the extras like marketing will remain fluff.  

Being a Fringe Nation playing rugby to the standards of the English and French will always be a tough assignment.  That's the luck of the draw of being small and not big.  But New Zealand remains a proving ground that the right structures and attitude can have a small Nation rise above those limitations and dominate the sport.
We have to resist, resist, and resist the pressure to buy and buy and buy our squads.  The more-money talk seems to be always with an eye on entering that buying market fully when caps do collapse.  Better coached rugby from school to Provinces/Regions/Clubs - on the field - tactics, ability, best coaching.... that's where the Pro12 brand has the only chance of proving itself.

TJ wrote:Its showing its a daft post from a man who has history of hating the pro 12.  Numerous posts stating how he hates it and what a micky mouse league it is -= quite honestly its tiresome.  I usually block him for this very reason.  .  the only wrangling comes out of wales - find a single piece from ireland scotland or Italy ( bar Italy winning the point over pay to play which did not need to be made public)

Why is it a daft post to point up the disparity of TV income for the three leagues in the midst of two Pro12 CEOs coming out publicly in talking about the need for the Pro12 to get its collective act together, and that it needs to market itself better and attract more TV revenues to strengthen its future. I would have thought it was a perfectly reasonable and relevant topic to introduce.

Secondly, I don't believe it was him who disagreed with whoever said that it was Welsh rugby that Dawson was referring to.
And it doesn't really matter where it comes from. It just needs to stop - publicly.

Because he is continually denigrating the pro 12.

SecretFly wrote:I don't know what a new 'branding' would mean.  I'd assume the only 'branding' that will work is better games and better crowds all through the league.

That will be difficult as before all the crowds and great games must come the truly great squads to keep the games going (even when International players are away on International duty or getting their needed breaks during the year) - and great squads require money to buy them as they won't immediately pop up from such small player pools.  

So in a sense, talk becomes cheap, because the problem remains the same problem (even for Irish Provinces that have sustained a degree of competitiveness for a long enough time in both League and Europe.)  
It's the power of Squads rather than Teams that will be the true test of worth into the future in League and in Europe.  

With France practically salary capless in all but name and Aviva really giving itself more and more reasons to quit its capping shackles too - the fringe countries in Pro12 will find it very very difficult to sustain Squads of sufficient quality to compete unless they keep buying from abroad.  But that becomes the dangerous Catch 22 because as soon as you 'employ' your needs rather than 'train' up your requirements, you weaken the indigenous Player Pool even more.  You make the Pool smaller in size and quality.

So I'd say talking is easy - finding Practical routes to success on the Rugby Field itself is where the 'Brand' will prove itself - the fluff of the extras like marketing will remain fluff.  

Being a Fringe Nation playing rugby to the standards of the English and French will always be a tough assignment.  That's the luck of the draw of being small and not big.  But New Zealand remains a proving ground that the right structures and attitude can have a small Nation rise above those limitations and dominate the sport.
We have to resist, resist, and resist the pressure to buy and buy and buy our squads.  The more-money talk seems to be always with an eye on entering that buying market fully when caps do collapse.  Better coached rugby from school to Provinces/Regions/Clubs - on the field - tactics, ability, best coaching.... that's where the Pro12 brand has the only chance of proving itself.

I think that what Dawson is referring to is a makeover of the current Pro12 brand and what it currently represents in the minds of its various publics - fans, players, coaches, unions, shareholders, business supporters, TV companies, etc. Is there a collective positive perception of what the Pro12 means to these various disparate groups? Probably not - at this point. More likely a collective negative perception of what the Pro12 represents. Clubs, squads, players, coaches, CEOs, unions and fans are the lifeblood. Bringing in more revenue is what will help to grow and sustain squads. Right now, Pro12 it has to make do with what it has, and do more with what it has. Yes marketing may be regarded as fluff, but the right kind of marketing gets more people engaged with he game, more footfall through the gates, greater ancillary spend by travelling fans, etc, etc.

Nothing breeds success quite like success. So I for one, hope that Glasgow win the Pro12 this season in Belfast from under the noses of Ospreys. It'll do wonders for the team, its fans, build its local support, and hopefully wider support in Scotland.

It breaks the hegemony of the Irish, and Welsh/Ospreys hold on the trophy which is a good thing. And maybe it'll give a boost to Glasgow for next season in the Champions Cup to enable them make the knockout stages on a more regular basis. And at the same time, it gives a fillip or kick in the aras to up it game.

Perversely, for an Irish fan, it would be a good thing for the league if the four playoff teams for next season were Glasgow, Ospreys, Scarlets and just one of the Irish provinces

I would say Sky don't pay good enough money for the quality of games they are showing, for instance Connacht-Ulster yesterday was an absolute cracker. Thats just one example among many.
I guess they will show both semis and final too, really i think the pro 12 brand should have got a better deal out of Sky.

TJ wrote:Because he is continually denigrating the pro 12.

And??

So are you saying that if someone else had posted what he said, then you wouldn't regard it as daft?

Pot Hale, you've posted some great stuff this evening.

Griff, Pot Hale - don't feed the troll!

We should of course be trying to sqeeze every penny we can from the TV but I saw earlier on in the season (can't remember where) that the Ospreys Munster match on SKY only had 39000 people viewing it. If that is the case I don't know how people can expect us to be getting a big increase in our tv deals.

Pot Hale wrote:

TJ wrote:Because he is continually denigrating the pro 12.

And??

So are you saying that if someone else had posted what he said, then you wouldn't regard it as daft?

Nope - it would still be daft cos its bollox. However when it comes from somone with a long history of negativity towards the pro 12 and with nothing realistic positive to replace it it becomes ridiculous
I do find it very odd I have to say the way some of the welsh see everything in such a negative light. Hate the regions, hate the pro 12. think all pro 12 refs are useless and biased against wales everyone hates the welsh etc etc. I don't understand where it comes from. constant streams of negativity

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We should of course be trying to sqeeze every penny we can from the TV but I saw earlier on in the season (can't remember where) that the Ospreys Munster match on SKY only had 39000 people viewing it. If that is the case I don't know how people can expect us to be getting a big increase in our tv deals.

Thats the problem with putting it on pay TV. I would much prefer it on free to air tv so more people watch and become fans. same as teams like ~Edinbuergh with big stadia and small crowds should be letting kids in free and charging £5 a ticket to get bums on seats