Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

Who is paying Sextons wages next season ?

I am.  I got a bit set by.  I ain't a scrooge.  I love me country and me rugby.  It's a given that I'd contribute 1.8M a year for Sexton to return home.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

There is no way Irish sides operate on much bigger budgets than a flush BT top AP sides  Less?

Of course they are. I posted up a  while ago how much they were spending on wages. It's way above most Aviva Premiership sides and near to most French sides.

Overall, the Irish sides are probably performing below where they should be given what they spend.

Bunk.

SecretFly wrote:I am.  I got a bit set by.  I ain't a scrooge.  I love me country and me rugby.  It's a given that I'd contribute 1.8M a year for Sexton to return home.

So you are Dennis O'Brien then SF ?

Look I do not agree with everything Quins is saying, but the salary cap of Leinster at least is higher than most clubs in Ireland/Britain, I would also wager that Ulster have quite a big salary bill as well.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

There is no way Irish sides operate on much bigger budgets than a flush BT top AP sides  Less?

Of course they are. I posted up a  while ago how much they were spending on wages. It's way above most Aviva Premiership sides and near to most French sides.

Overall, the Irish sides are probably performing below where they should be given what they spend.

Bunk.

Clearly not given the salary cap.

ME-109 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:wonder how much fans of the other provinces think heaslip's worth, given that they are subsidizing him via the irfu?

Its the way it works in Ireland. Money goes from the IRFU to the provinces and vice versa. Players contracts are a mix of central and provincial. Fine by me concerning Heaslip. Not sure what your problem is with it though

Yeah, what goes around comes around. All Ulster need to do is produce some players in the same bracket as Heaslip and we'll benefit as much as Leinster are.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I am.  I got a bit set by.  I ain't a scrooge.  I love me country and me rugby.  It's a given that I'd contribute 1.8M a year for Sexton to return home.

So you are Dennis O'Brien then SF ?

Look I do not agree with everything Quins is saying, but the salary cap of Leinster at least is higher than most clubs in Ireland/Britain, I would also wager that Ulster have quite a big salary bill as well.

Just look at the IRFU accounts. The wage budgets for the provinces are way above the PRL salary cap.

They're in denial again.

The Great Aukster wrote:Heaslip gets paid what the market is prepared to pay for him - that's professional sport for you. What's amazing is that all those elite English players who get only a fraction of that aren't tempted by offers from France, or maybe the market doesn't rate them?

And we are in a reactive position, forced to pay these high salaries and to do deals with the devil with the likes of this O'Brien chap, because the French clubs are distorting the market by offering massive salaries and taking on lots of debt.

We're not the ones driving the increase in salaries, we're begrudgingly being swept along with it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Just look at the IRFU accounts. The wage budgets for the provinces are way above the PRL salary cap.

It stands to reason Chunk, you cannot have the amount of players the provinces have and the quality to go with it without paying for it, although at the same time they are not doing anything wrong, but they are getting subsidised by very wealthy people so that they can pay these wages.

Notch wrote: the French clubs are distorting the market by offering massive salaries and taking on lots of debt.

It's called market forces. I went to waitrose last week to do some shopping. It was expensive. But I could afford it and the bread was of nicer quality than tesco.

Toulon just posted a profit by the way.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: the French clubs are distorting the market by offering massive salaries and taking on lots of debt.

It's called market forces. I went to waitrose last week to do some shopping. It was expensive. But I could afford it and the bread was of nicer quality than tesco.

Toulon just posted a profit by the way.

One of the voluntarily lobotomised is actually trying to condescend to me

Yes, I understand what market forces are!

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Heaslip gets paid what the market is prepared to pay for him - that's professional sport for you. What's amazing is that all those elite English players who get only a fraction of that aren't tempted by offers from France, or maybe the market doesn't rate them?

And we are in a reactive position, forced to pay these high salaries and to do deals with the devil with the likes of this O'Brien chap, because the French clubs are distorting the market by offering massive salaries and taking on lots of debt.

We're not the ones driving the increase in salaries, we're begrudgingly being swept along with it.

Nobody is saying you are doing anything wrong Notch, neither are anybody blaming you for anything, it is just being pointed out that the Irish provinces are working on higher budgets than most, which is fine, and that is what is helping bring success to the provinces.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Just look at the IRFU accounts. The wage budgets for the provinces are way above the PRL salary cap.

It stands to reason Chunk, you cannot have the amount of players the provinces have and the quality to go with it without paying for it, although at the same time they are not doing anything wrong, but they are getting subsidised by very wealthy people so that they can pay these wages.

The Irish system is great. It works for them and they should be proud of it. But this constant denial that their wage budgets are below the English is concerning, as it means they don't even understand their own finances. They are underperforming massively when you look at how much money they are spending.

Notch wrote:

One of the voluntarily lobotomised

Lovely. Cheers for that.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish system is great. It works for them and they should be proud of it.

Which brings us around full circle and the reasons why the Pro12 will never get the revenue streams it needs to survive.

I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free!   Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

That's roughly what I hear during International windows and such.....

So does it matter what we pay our much sloggers when nobody else thinks they're worth a penny of it anyway?  Chunky says it's the loadsa money that Leinster throw at their team that brings about their success.  How is that then when it's mostly the same idiots on the team now for a century and they needed 'good coaches' to make them play even reasonably well because they don't have sufficient instincts to meet the true stars of Wales or England on a level playing field?

This continues to be the drone - MORE money means more success.   Yes, it can do when you buy in most of your players and then pretend you've always had the history of being Big and Strong.  
But when you use your money to develop your own players, off your own production line and then use money to hold onto them (or get them back! ) - nope, there'll be not meek apology from me for that.  Leinster players, created in Leinster, being paid for and rewarded for their continued loyalty to Leinster.  

I repeat again though, we're not in French rugby's league in terms of finances thrown at players and neither do we know the incentives and extras dropped on English players in the top four or five sides.  There is already a very lonnnnngggg investigation (maybe we could just drop it and nobody would remember with all the WC fuss ) into two of those top clubs.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Just look at the IRFU accounts. The wage budgets for the provinces are way above the PRL salary cap.

It stands to reason Chunk, you cannot have the amount of players the provinces have and the quality to go with it without paying for it, although at the same time they are not doing anything wrong, but they are getting subsidised by very wealthy people so that they can pay these wages.

All these private investors/backers (or whatever else you wish to call them) are evil and destroying the game purely for their own ego kicks, or so I have read somewhere.

SecretFly wrote:I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free! Wink Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

I have never, ever heard anybody say this, so please Fly, if you are going to make any accusations please bring some evidence with you.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free! Wink   Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

I have never, ever heard anybody say this, so please Fly, if you are going to make any accusations please bring some evidence with you.

While you're at it, can we have the evidence that the regions have "brought the game into disrepute by demeaning the pro12 in public"

I'm still sniggering at that.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free! Wink   Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

I have never, ever heard anybody say this, so please Fly, if you are going to make any accusations please bring some evidence with you.

Quite. The only time I ever hear those sort of comments about Irish players is when the cross-provincial bunfights are taking place (ie all the time).

Oh give over Lord.  It's always the taunt.  The Irish players are always 'reasonably good' as a team...but separate them from their Borg Collective and none of them would hold a candle to all the eulogised Stars across the way.  

Even this year's 6N, the people that know couldn't work out how all the 'superstars' in the fancy sides were being undone by the heavy legged boys from company Green.  The Journalistic Best Lists through the weeks were stuffed with mostly anybody but de Irish.  It was only in after the final week that the idea that a few of them might be okay started to appear.  
Even the player of the Tournament, Paulie the Great , had the notion that he won because he was simply on the winning team thrown his way by some here.

SecretFly wrote:Oh give over Lord.  It's always the taunt.  The Irish players are always 'reasonably good' as a team...but separate them from their Borg Collective and none of them would hold a candle to all the eulogised Stars across the way.   

Even this year's 6N, the people that know couldn't work out how all the 'superstars' in the fancy sides were being undone by the heavy legged boys from company Green.  The Journalistic Best Lists through the weeks were stuffed with mostly anybody but de Irish.  It was only in after the final week that the idea that a few of them might be okay started to appear.  
Even the player of the Tournament, Paulie the Great , had the notion that he won because he was simply on the winning team thrown his way by some here.

SF, well if that is the case then I need to see the evidence, because for me I have always held certain Irish players in the highest regard, Sexton, Healy, Kearney, POC, SOB, Heaslip, amongst a few are players I seriously rate, and I have seen numerous others rate them highly as well. I am sorry but these accusations that you have voiced seem a little unfounded, but if you can prove otherwise I will apologise.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh give over Lord.  It's always the taunt.  The Irish players are always 'reasonably good' as a team...but separate them from their Borg Collective and none of them would hold a candle to all the eulogised Stars across the way.   

Even this year's 6N, the people that know couldn't work out how all the 'superstars' in the fancy sides were being undone by the heavy legged boys from company Green.  The Journalistic Best Lists through the weeks were stuffed with mostly anybody but de Irish.  It was only in after the final week that the idea that a few of them might be okay started to appear.  
Even the player of the Tournament, Paulie the Great , had the notion that he won because he was simply on the winning team thrown his way by some here.

SF, well if that is the case then I need to see the evidence, because for me I have always held certain Irish players in the highest regard, Sexton, Healy, Kearney, POC, SOB, Heaslip, amongst a few are players I seriously rate, and I have seen numerous others rate them highly as well. I am sorry but these accusations that you have voiced seem a little unfounded, but if you can prove otherwise I will apologise.

The post wasn't directed at you, Lord.  I address the issues that crop up.  I didn't accuse you of anything.  

I do know what my memories are of this place over the years though.  I don't care - not offended.  Even our own Rodders for a long while under Kidney kept telling us all our players just weren't up to the standards required to meet our European opponents in International battle.  I remember hearing from some English friends here that we shouldn't be blaming Kidney so much when it's clear he didn't have the players to work with. Quins only recently questioned the worth of a 3 times Pro12 champ, a three times HEC champ and a three times 6N champ.  In England such a player would be a God by now.  But because he's Heaslip, he ain't all that and ain't worth his salary neither  And I remember Welsh posters say they wouldn't change one Welsh player for an Irish one. 

The players that brought us to 9th in the World (and nobody batted an eye because we had our considered 'player limitations') are mostly the same players that have brought us up to 3rd (and people the world over - in New Zealand as well - look curiously and say 'How'? - 'How is it happening?' - 'It's that damn meddling Kiwi Coach, that's how' because the fecking players ain't much to look at on their own.  

So the case remains.  A mediocre crew, that few would pay for over one of their own stars, is said to be good enough to get prizes simply because they're paid better than the Welsh or English stars.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free! Wink   Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

I have never, ever heard anybody say this, so please Fly, if you are going to make any accusations please bring some evidence with you.

While you're at it, can we have the evidence that the regions have "brought the game into disrepute by demeaning the pro12 in public"

I'm still sniggering at that.

Peter Thomas. While threatening that the Regions were about to pull out of the Pro12:



"The product we have in the Pro12 is not selling. To be blunt, we don't have a product. We are in the wrong competition."


“There are two basic ingredients to any business, the people, and we’ve got them, and the product (RaboDirect Pro12),” said a frustrated Thomas.

“The product we have got isn’t acceptable to the public and players, and it’s not selling.

“If you have a product that doesn’t sell, you either have to improve or change it.


“The regions have put forward a RCC (European) or a B & I Cup that maybe is the solution for us.


“Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product.”







He who laughs last.....

SecretFly wrote: And I remember Welsh posters say they wouldn't change one Welsh player for an Irish one

To be fair SF, if you asked me that question now, I would not swap any either, well perhaps Healy for the front row, but that is because I am a very passionate Welshman who loves his country, that does not mean to say though, that we do not hold the Irish players in a high regard, if anybody offered us any of the Irish CC players to play for Wales or our regions we would rip your bloody arms off.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free! Wink   Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

I have never, ever heard anybody say this, so please Fly, if you are going to make any accusations please bring some evidence with you.

While you're at it, can we have the evidence that the regions have "brought the game into disrepute by demeaning the pro12 in public"

I'm still sniggering at that.

Peter Thomas. While threatening that the Regions were about to pull out of the Pro12:


"The product we have in the Pro12 is not selling. To be blunt, we don't have a product. We are in the wrong competition."
“There are two basic ingredients to any business, the people, and we’ve got them, and the product (RaboDirect Pro12),” said a frustrated Thomas.
“The product we have got isn’t acceptable to the public and players, and it’s not selling.
“If you have a product that doesn’t sell, you either have to improve or change it.
“The regions have put forward a RCC (European) or a B & I Cup that maybe is the solution for us.
“Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product.”


He who laughs last.....

(just removed the spaces in the quote, to save space)

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free! Wink   Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

I have never, ever heard anybody say this, so please Fly, if you are going to make any accusations please bring some evidence with you.

While you're at it, can we have the evidence that the regions have "brought the game into disrepute by demeaning the pro12 in public"

I'm still sniggering at that.

And you'll of course send me a copy of Reffing orders given out by IRFU that demands they stall Welsh ambitions at every turn.  Proof that the Pro12 is weighed heavily in Ireland favour from an administration point of view.

You still don't get irony, Chunky.  If you attack - someone else attacks in a similar vein to show up the idiocy.

If the Welsh regions have claimed everything is wrong with Pro12, the WRU, the arrangements for days of the week and venues for Finals...if the regions say all this then I'll say yep???  - all that stuff is wrong and you're not happy with it?  
Right, I say that now you boys should be fined for bringing the Pro12 into disrepute with all your public moans and whines over the last year.  You've actively dissuaded big sponsors from showing up and have given the ones that do the ability to give less then they might have been asked:
"Hey, wait a second," they'd have said, "we're not paying that.  We're buying a mess as it is, we're buying a dysfunctional League that's going nowhere fast with all the fights we been listening to the last few years!  So you'll take what you get and be best pleased with it.  You're lucky we showed up at all!"



Get it?

The Regions lost us loadsa bleedin' money! Someone just gotta pay for the loss of earnings. I suggest Welsh Regions

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: the French clubs are distorting the market by offering massive salaries and taking on lots of debt.

It's called market forces. I went to waitrose last week to do some shopping. It was expensive. But I could afford it and the bread was of nicer quality than tesco.

Toulon just posted a profit by the way.

Top 14 clubs recorded losses of 34million last season according to the 42.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do laugh though because when the subject of Irish based players come up, the usual line coming from our friends to the right of us on the map (Welsh and English) is that the wouldn't take most of them if they were given them for free! Wink   Nope, 'our boys is much better than your turnip eating farmer-boy cowshit-welly wearing boys.'

I have never, ever heard anybody say this, so please Fly, if you are going to make any accusations please bring some evidence with you.

While you're at it, can we have the evidence that the regions have "brought the game into disrepute by demeaning the pro12 in public"

I'm still sniggering at that.

And you'll of course send me a copy of Reffing orders given out by IRFU that demands they stall Welsh ambitions at every turn.  Proof that the Pro12 is weighed heavily in Ireland favour from an administration point of view.

You still don't get irony, Chunky.  If you attack - someone else attacks in a similar vein to show up the idiocy.

If the Welsh regions have claimed everything is wrong with Pro12, the WRU, the arrangements for days of the week and venues for Finals...if the regions say all this then I'll say yep???  - all that stuff is wrong and you're not happy with it?  
Right, I say that now you boys should be fined for bringing the Pro12 into disrepute with all your public moans and whines over the last year.  You've actively dissuaded big sponsors from showing up and have given the ones that do the ability to give less then they might have been asked:
"Hey, wait a second," they'd have said,  "we're not paying that.  We're buying a mess as it is, we're buying a dysfunctional League that's going nowhere fast with all the fights we been listening to the last few years!  So you'll take what you get and be best pleased with it.  You're lucky we showed up at all!"



Get it?

The Regions lost us loadsa bleedin' money!  Someone just gotta pay for the loss of earnings.  I suggest Welsh Regions

I guess that would be in the same places as Pat Lam's documents from Leighton Hodges telling him how Connacht are going to lose.

Back at you, your turn....

What is Peter Thomas saying that is wrong though ? The Pro12 is NOT selling, this is what we have been discussing on here from the start, we need a product that makes money, lots of it. But as has been alluded to already in this debate, EVERY union just wants to suit themselves and NOT do what is best for the league. But it's ok, lets find more truthful comment from a Welshman and keep blaming the Welsh for the leagues failings.

SecretFly wrote:The Regions lost us loadsa bleedin' money! OK Someone just gotta pay for the loss of earnings. I suggest Welsh Regions Cool

Yep, lets just keep blaming the Welsh, and lets pretend that the Irish have not ever treated our league as a development competition for their non CC players over the years. I wonder how much MORE sponsorship monies we could have made over the years if the Irish played their star players in the league.

LordDowlais wrote:What is Peter Thomas saying that is wrong though ? The Pro12 is NOT selling, this is what we have been discussing on here from the start, we need a product that makes money, lots of it. But as has been alluded to already in this debate, EVERY union just wants to suit themselves and NOT do what is best for the league. But it's ok, lets find more truthful comment from a Welshman and keep blaming the Welsh for the leagues failings.

Not selling for who though, and why?

SKY and Guinness have just signed up. They obviously see value in the Pro12, even if Peter pies does not.

If Peter Thomas honestly believed what he was saying then why on earth is he wasting millions of his own money on it, while encouraging investors to do the same? He was either lying at the time, or he is dense.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I guess that would be in the same places as Pat Lam's documents from Leighton Hodges telling him how Connacht are going to lose.

Back at you, your turn....

PAT.... LAM.... WAS.... FINED....

Munchkin wrote:He was either lying at the time, or he is dense.

I very much doubt the man is dense, you do not become one of the richest men in the UK by being dense, I think he was just stating the obvious. When he said these comments, SKY and Guinness were not involved, I think what he said is right.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The Regions lost us loadsa bleedin' money! OK Someone just gotta pay for the loss of earnings. I suggest Welsh Regions Cool

Yep, lets just keep blaming the Welsh, and lets pretend that the Irish have not ever treated our league as a development competition for their non CC players over the years. I wonder how much MORE sponsorship monies we could have made over the years if the Irish played their star players in the league.

Pay Up, Lord. We're waiting for the money we lost out on when Guinness said: "You must be joking? Pay that for a dud league that's falling apart at the seams that the Welsh been telling us about all through last year and some of this????"

Pay Up - the greedy Irish is out of pocket here. We're smarting. We're livid. We're mad as hell and we're not taking it no more!!!!!!!

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:He was either lying at the time, or he is dense.

I very much doubt the man is dense, you do not become one of the richest men in the UK by being dense, I think he was just stating the obvious. When he said these comments, SKY and Guinness were not involved, I think what he said is right.

That doesn't answer the question: If he was stating the obvious why would he continue to throw millions of his own money at it? If he's not dense and if he was being honest, then why waste his money on a failed product?

Indeed, the fact that SKY and Guinness came on board >after< Peter Thomas, and RRW, did their best to weaken the value of Pro12, only strengthens the argument that they value it regardless.

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I guess that would be in the same places as Pat Lam's documents from Leighton Hodges telling him how Connacht are going to lose.

Back at you, your turn....

PAT.... LAM.... WAS.... FINED....

Lucky Pat, can we just pay a fine, and avoid the non-stop persecution on here?

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The Regions lost us loadsa bleedin' money! OK Someone just gotta pay for the loss of earnings. I suggest Welsh Regions Cool

Yep, lets just keep blaming the Welsh, and lets pretend that the Irish have not ever treated our league as a development competition for their non CC players over the years. I wonder how much MORE sponsorship monies we could have made over the years if the Irish played their star players in the league.

Pay Up, Lord.  We're waiting for the money we lost out on when Guinness said: "You must be joking?  Pay that for a dud league that's falling apart at the seams that the Welsh been telling us about all through last year and some of this????"

Pay Up - the greedy Irish is out of pocket here.  We're smarting.  We're livid.  We're mad as hell and we're not taking it no more!!!!!!!

They might have came in sooner if the the Provinces played their CC players in the league, how much has all that lost income cost us ? Years of waste, for everbody else, but at least the Irish blooded a few players in their development league during that time.

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Heaslip gets paid what the market is prepared to pay for him - that's professional sport for you. What's amazing is that all those elite English players who get only a fraction of that aren't tempted by offers from France, or maybe the market doesn't rate them?

And we are in a reactive position, forced to pay these high salaries and to do deals with the devil with the likes of this O'Brien chap, because the French clubs are distorting the market by offering massive salaries and taking on lots of debt.

We're not the ones driving the increase in salaries, we're begrudgingly being swept along with it.

Lots of debt? 34M euros for top 14 and proD2, so 30 teams. And 75% of these debt is because of 3 clubs: Racing, Stade Français and Castres.
And two clubs are earning money: Brive and Toulon.
So the average debt for the remaining club is 340 000. Nothing huge, and given our history of "suggar daddies" in our championship ( I think Quillan in 1929 was the first case of it) it will not affect us. It's not a dangerous situation because we have the DNACG which control the financial situation of each club during the season. They have to put money on a bank account before each season, and to have a guarantor for their (eventual) debt. In a case like Racing, Lorenzetti had to pay each season to clear the debts.
We couldn't have a club like Saracens with a (unpaid?) mounting debt of £40m.

LordDowlais wrote:What is Peter Thomas saying that is wrong though ? The Pro12 is NOT selling, this is what we have been discussing on here from the start, we need a product that makes money, lots of it. But as has been alluded to already in this debate, EVERY union just wants to suit themselves and NOT do what is best for the league. But it's ok, lets find more truthful comment from a Welshman and keep blaming the Welsh for the leagues failings.

Exactly. We try and look at what is wrong in our country with the regions, and we bring the game into disrepute.

Pathetic.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What is Peter Thomas saying that is wrong though ? The Pro12 is NOT selling, this is what we have been discussing on here from the start, we need a product that makes money, lots of it. But as has been alluded to already in this debate, EVERY union just wants to suit themselves and NOT do what is best for the league. But it's ok, lets find more truthful comment from a Welshman and keep blaming the Welsh for the leagues failings.

Exactly. We try and look at what is wrong in our country with the regions, and we bring the game into disrepute.

Pathetic.

Peter Thomas wasn't highlighting what's wrong with the Regions:

"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What is Peter Thomas saying that is wrong though ? The Pro12 is NOT selling, this is what we have been discussing on here from the start, we need a product that makes money, lots of it. But as has been alluded to already in this debate, EVERY union just wants to suit themselves and NOT do what is best for the league. But it's ok, lets find more truthful comment from a Welshman and keep blaming the Welsh for the leagues failings.

Exactly. We try and look at what is wrong in our country with the regions, and we bring the game into disrepute.

Pathetic.

Peter Thomas wasn't highlighting what's wrong with the Regions:

"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

How is that "bringing the league into disrepute?"

The product needed to be changed then. He was right. And it still needs to be changed further.

Munchkin wrote:"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

And I agree, we need better tele deals and sponsorship, how would you suggest we do this, from an Irish point of view ?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I guess that would be in the same places as Pat Lam's documents from Leighton Hodges telling him how Connacht are going to lose.

Back at you, your turn....

PAT.... LAM.... WAS.... FINED....

Lucky Pat, can we just pay a fine, and avoid the non-stop persecution on here?  

Yeah.  That's doable.

Now we'll have to work out what percentage of Lam's wage packet he had to fork out to keep the Pro12 Reptation Committee happy and transfer that percentage over to the Regions...of course adding your bit into the fine given you used the word 'persecution' when of course it's our ears suffering years of persecution from sundry Welsh cries after each and every Pro12 game involving one of their sides....

Yeah...I think if that payment reached us in 28 days or less we could stop court proceedings and move on like true friends....................................................................................

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

And I agree, we need better tele deals and sponsorship, how would you suggest we do this, from an Irish point of view ?

More Irish Provinces?

So...who wants to become an Irish Province??? Any takers? All you need is a bunch of ordinary players who take orders quite well and live in cottonwool for half a year????

LordDowlais wrote:What is Peter Thomas saying that is wrong though ? The Pro12 is NOT selling, this is what we have been discussing on here from the start, we need a product that makes money, lots of it. But as has been alluded to already in this debate, EVERY union just wants to suit themselves and NOT do what is best for the league. But it's ok, lets find more truthful comment from a Welshman and keep blaming the Welsh for the leagues failings.

I've read this thread and I'm glad our championship is for teams of our country only.
Too difficult to make it works with 4 Unions.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

And I agree, we need better tele deals and sponsorship, how would you suggest we do this, from an Irish point of view ?

More Irish Provinces?

So...who wants to become an Irish Province???  Any takers?  All you need is a bunch of ordinary players who take orders quite well and live in cottonwool for half a year????

I was asking a serious question, but seemingly as you have answered it sarcastically I will answer the same.

No thanks we do not need more Irish provinces treating OUR league as a development tool for non CC players, thanks.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What is Peter Thomas saying that is wrong though ? The Pro12 is NOT selling, this is what we have been discussing on here from the start, we need a product that makes money, lots of it. But as has been alluded to already in this debate, EVERY union just wants to suit themselves and NOT do what is best for the league. But it's ok, lets find more truthful comment from a Welshman and keep blaming the Welsh for the leagues failings.

Exactly. We try and look at what is wrong in our country with the regions, and we bring the game into disrepute.

Pathetic.

Peter Thomas wasn't highlighting what's wrong with the Regions:

"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

How is that "bringing the league into disrepute?

The product needed to be changed then. He was right. And it still needs to be changed further.

How is it not! He's attacking the very product that gives the Italians, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh (including Cardiff Blues of which he is Chairman!) a means to raise their profile, to challenge the home nations, to pit themselves against the European elite, to win something of value.

If the product needed to be changed then why would he continue to throw money at it? Why on earth would SKY and Guinness come on board? How on earth has Pro12 been so successful at challenging the very best in Europe and winning?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Exactly. We try and look at what is wrong in our country with the regions, and we bring the game into disrepute.

Pathetic.

We give the League value and a level of European respect, and we're killing it with skulduggery, stubbornness, over-ambition, cheating and hypocrisy.

Pathetic.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Exactly. We try and look at what is wrong in our country with the regions, and we bring the game into disrepute.

Pathetic.

We give the League value and a level of European respect, and we're killing it with skulduggery, stubbornness, over-ambition, cheating and hypocrisy.

Pathetic.

You don't give the league any respect at all.