Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

TJ wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

TJ wrote:Because he is continually denigrating the pro 12.

And??

So are you saying that if someone else had posted what he said, then you wouldn't regard it as daft?

Nope - it would still be daft cos its bollox.  

Ah I see - a cogently argued analysis.   It's bollox.

So Chunky said:

"Broadcasting revenue.
The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.
That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly."

And Mick Dawson said in summary: We have to give the Pro12 a makeover and get more TV revenue in or we will find it very hard to compete.

Is he talking "bollox" as well?  

Yes because he has no solutions. Without any suggestions its just a pointless whinge

How do you know that Dawson has no solutions? Why do you view it as a pointless whinge by the manager of one of the most successful clubs in the Pro 12??

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We should of course be trying to sqeeze every penny we can from the TV but I saw earlier on in the season (can't remember where) that the Ospreys Munster match on SKY only had 39000 people viewing it. If that is the case I don't know how people can expect us to be getting a big increase in our tv deals.

Might have had something to do with the fact that 90K were watching the Cricket World Cup highlights of Ireland v Zimbabwe on Sky!

Pot Hale wrote:How do you know that Dawson has no solutions?  Why do you view it as a pointless whinge by the manager of one of the most successful clubs in the Pro 12??

Dawson was the Irish rep on the Board of the Celtic League up to recently (he was also on the board of ERC). Why did he not produce some solutions for those?

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:How do you know that Dawson has no solutions?  Why do you view it as a pointless whinge by the manager of one of the most successful clubs in the Pro 12??

Dawson was the Irish rep on the Board of the Celtic League up to recently (he was also on the board of ERC). Why did he not produce some solutions for those?

Well for a start, neither of us know whether he did propose any solutions and/or if they were turned down or accepted.

But I don't think that's quite the issue. He was asked how does Leinster compete with the new levels of funding that have gone into the english and French leagues. to which he reasonably replied that it's not just a Leinster issue, it's a Pro12 issue. One for the four countries involved. And he indicated what he believed were the priorities areas that needed to be focussed on. I'd fault the journalists for not following up for more specifics of what he thought should happen across the makeover, and pursuing more TV revenue. but I certainly wouldn't regard his views as bollox or daft.

I don't think Pro12 needs rebranded at all. What it does need is a stronger image, and especially so after the infighting between WRU and the Regions, as well as the constant attacks on Pro12 by a few of the Regional fans online. They are tarnishing the brand. I think this is what TJ is referring too, and he's right.
Despite last seasons fall out caused by the fight over the European competition the Pro12 has actually grown in strength. We have SKY on board now, as well as a big name sponsor in Guinness. On top of that qualification into the Euro has changed, making it more competitive. Especially so for mid-table teams of which there remains 3 teams fighting it out for 6th place.

And still some moan...

Sure it could be improved - more TV money - bigger sponsorship deals - bigger crowds at some of the grounds. None of which the conspiracy theories and the constant bitching will help.

Dawson should have said that Leinster have found a rich sugar daddy to top up the pay of some of their more senior players (Sexton, SOB & Heislip). Denis O'Brien is the sugar daddy.

He could also have said that their new training centre was also paid for by a rich supporter (David Shubotham).

Dawson used to work with/for Shubotham at Davy Stockbrokers.

Munchkin wrote:I don't think Pro12 needs rebranded at all. What it does need is a stronger image, and especially so after the infighting between WRU and the Regions, as well as the constant attacks on Pro12 by a few of the Regional fans online. They are tarnishing the brand. I think this is what TJ is referring too, and he's right.
Despite last seasons fall out caused by the fight over the European competition the Pro12 has actually grown in strength. We have SKY on board now, as well as a big name sponsor in Guinness. On top of that qualification into the Euro has changed, making it more competitive. Especially so for mid-table teams of which there remains 3 teams fighting it out for 6th place.

And still some moan...

Sure it could be improved - more TV money - bigger sponsorship deals - bigger crowds at some of the grounds. None of which the conspiracy theories and the constant bitching will help.

Exactly, the PRO12 has been rebranded recently with Guinness and Sky involved. The clubs/provinces/regions involved need to up their game and the Welsh Regions need to undo all the damage they have done to the League.

Sin é wrote:Dawson should have said that Leinster have found a rich sugar daddy to top up the pay of some of their more senior players (Sexton, SOB & Heislip). Denis O'Brien is the sugar daddy.

He could also have said that their new training centre was also paid for by a rich supporter (David Shubotham).

Dawson used to work with/for Shubotham at Davy Stockbrokers.

Why should he have said those things? The news about the training centre being paid for privately was known about over a year ago - reported in media. As was the support from Denis O'Brien for players' salaries. What relevance has that to the issue of improving the image and value of the Pro12 to broadcasters in order to continue to compete with the much greater revenues available to the other two leagues? As he said, it's not just an issue for Leinster, it's one for the whole of the Pro12.

PH - this is what you posted:   ''He was asked how does Leinster compete with the new levels of funding that have gone into the english and French leagues. to which he reasonably replied that it's not just a Leinster issue, it's a Pro12 issue.''

If he was asked how Leinster competed, he should have replied through private financing from some wealthy individuals.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I don't think Pro12 needs rebranded at all. What it does need is a stronger image, and especially so after the infighting between WRU and the Regions, as well as the constant attacks on Pro12 by a few of the Regional fans online. They are tarnishing the brand. I think this is what TJ is referring too, and he's right.
Despite last seasons fall out caused by the fight over the European competition the Pro12 has actually grown in strength. We have SKY on board now, as well as a big name sponsor in Guinness. On top of that qualification into the Euro has changed, making it more competitive. Especially so for mid-table teams of which there remains 3 teams fighting it out for 6th place.

And still some moan...

Sure it could be improved - more TV money - bigger sponsorship deals - bigger crowds at some of the grounds. None of which the conspiracy theories and the constant bitching will help.

Exactly, the PRO12 has been rebranded recently with Guinness and Sky involved. The clubs/provinces/regions involved need to up their game and the Welsh Regions need to undo all the damage they have done to the League.

I suspect that both of you are actually agreeing with him. He said the Pro12 brand needs a makeover, a stronger or better image than the one that the brand has at the moment. And that in turn needs to lead to greater crowds across some of the clubs, better squads in Wales with their high profile players back in Wales, and a more attractive product that can negotiate for a better TV deal and sponsorship to fund the clubs.

Sin é wrote:PH - this is what you posted:   ''He was asked how does Leinster compete with the new levels of funding that have gone into the english and French leagues. to which he reasonably replied that it's not just a Leinster issue, it's a Pro12 issue.''

If he was asked how Leinster competed, he should have replied through private financing from some wealthy individuals.

Sin é - I think you said you listened to the interview. If you recall, the question was phrased about the future, not about what they've done currently or in the past - how are they going to compete against that continuing threat of substantially increased funding for the other leagues. Top-ups from O'Brien or a one-off investment in a training facility is not really an answer to that. Sure the interviewers could have asked other questions - I'm just working off the ones asked and answered.

If they interviewed the Munster CEO (Garrett Fitzgerald), he would have told them about their development of a Patron Scheme (which they raised 2m euro last year from 30 patrons). Munster have a fairly powerful Commercial Board with some serious business heads who have developed this concept with Doug Howlett as the Corporate Ambassador.

And Garret Fitz is now the Irish rep on the Celtic League board!

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:We should of course be trying to sqeeze every penny we can from the TV but I saw earlier on in the season (can't remember where) that the Ospreys Munster match on SKY only had 39000 people viewing it. If that is the case I don't know how people can expect us to be getting a big increase in our tv deals.

Might have had something to do with the fact that 90K were watching the Cricket World Cup highlights of Ireland v Zimbabwe on Sky!

Well the Irish cricket team is a big draw It's a shame the ICC is doing everything they can to exclude them from the next world cup.

One thing which would really help the credibility of the league if they started using refs who actually know the laws of the game and stop using it as a development league for match officials.

Also, I think that the league will continually be looked at as a joke league as the best players rarely play in it, with the Irish centrally contracted players and now the Welsh DC players will we ever see the best players playing in our league ? I can count on one hand the amount of times I have see the likes of BOD and ROG playing in the league, also Warburton hardly ever plays for Blues, so until ALL the unions start treating the league seriously then we will never get out of the status quo.

Sin é wrote:One thing which would really help the credibility of the league if they started using refs who actually know the laws of the game and stop using it as a development league for match officials.

I agree Sin, but be careful as TJ has stated that the Welsh whingeing about this is tarnishing the league. Wouldn't want you tarred with the same brush as us.

Griff wrote:I agree Sin, but be careful as TJ has stated that the Welsh whingeing about this is tarnishing the league. Wouldn't want you tarred with the same brush as us.

Yeah, you have got to laugh haven't you ? It's all the fault of the Welsh that the league has no credibility because of our in fighting, but at least we have always tried to put out our strongest sides in the league, I do not think I have EVER seen a full strength Irish side rock up at the regions for a league game.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:I agree Sin, but be careful as TJ has stated that the Welsh whingeing about this is tarnishing the league. Wouldn't want you tarred with the same brush as us.  

Yeah, you have got to laugh haven't you ? It's all the fault of the Welsh that the league has no credibility because of our in fighting, but at least we have always tried to put out our strongest sides in the league, I do not think I have EVER seen a full strength Irish side rock up at the regions for a league game.

This confuses me LD, Munster regularly put out their strongest side available in the Pro-12, just on Saturday POC, POM, Murray, Zebo, Jones etc (all Irish representatives) played for Munster against Edinburgh...

There is bound to be squad rotation but you cant blame the Irish sides for having that extra strength in depth that others may not. Teams will always look at where they are in Europe as well and pick accordingly as that is the highest honor in club rugby. The English do it, The French do it, The Scottish do it and even the Welsh do it. This is not something that only Irish sides do...

When available, all clubs in the Pro-12 put out their strongest sides I feel.

LD - the irony of your post - of course its all about the Welsh! Everything has to be about the Welsh in the PRO12.

Why in the name of god would the Irish send a full strength team out when you get the likes of Leighton Hodges to ref your game?

And here comes the Irish wolf packs again, look, I am willing to recognise that the infighting in Wales does not help our league, then why can't you Irish accept that the way YOUR union treats the league does not help it either ?

I don't consider myself part of any wolf pack LD, mine was a response to your claim that Irish sides don't put out full strength sides, something I believe to be factually wrong.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I don't consider myself part of any wolf pack LD, mine was a response to your claim that Irish sides don't put out full strength sides, something I believe to be factually wrong.

Then would you care to evaluate the Leinster side at RP yesterday ?

AHHHH............home

The Welsh/Irish Love-in thread continues.......


Wot's the news this morning?  

The Irish never show up for Pro12 duty and the Welsh sides always try hard?  

I heard Warburton was playing at the weekend?  I even watched the game.  But I didn't see him playing.  What team was he on?  Always try hard?  The man never rose out of 2nd gear - if he even reached that gear.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I don't consider myself part of any wolf pack LD, mine was a response to your claim that Irish sides don't put out full strength sides, something I believe to be factually wrong.

Then would you care to evaluate the Leinster side at RP yesterday ?

The Dragons are saying it was a great win for them?  They're very happy and good for them - they fully deserved it.  Are you denigrating the win by saying they played against fodder, Lord?

SecretFly wrote:I heard Warburton was playing at the weekend? I even watched the game. But I didn't see him playing. What team was he on? Always try hard? The man never rose out of 2nd gear - if he even reached that gear.

I have recognised Warburtons lack of game time a few answer up SF.

I just do not care for this attitude that it is all the fault of the Welsh why they Pro12 does not get much credability.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I don't consider myself part of any wolf pack LD, mine was a response to your claim that Irish sides don't put out full strength sides, something I believe to be factually wrong.

Then would you care to evaluate the Leinster side at RP yesterday ?

As I mentioned earlier, ALL sides rest rotate squads with an eye on the biggest prize in club rugby, this is nothing new and certainly not something that is only done by Irish sides. Leinster are effectively only left in 1 competition so it stands to reason that they would have an eye on the Toulon match. I also gave an example of Munster fielding their strongest side on the weekend which also disproves your point that Irish sides do not field their strongest sides in the Pro-12.

Regarding CN's original post - the finance is an issue and longer term will continue to be - as it is in every other sport in GB and I - the English league will always have the most money as they have the most people. It is therefore incumbent on the Pro12 to maximise it's income, whether this is on a club by club basis, playing devil take the hindmost, or by working together to raise funding collectively.

If we take the assumption that the PRL do not want (and are likely never to want) any form of B & I League as it would damage their product, dilute the funding available to them and probably see the deimse of at least four teams in England - not to mention hugely urinate off the various RFUs - then the only other option is for the Pro12 to grow as a seperate entity and to be honest the key to that is very simple it means that there need to be strong Welsh teams and on that point the WRU and PRW have to sort that, and that has to start with a recognition that the Regions are the only way forward, that the club game immeadiately below has to be supportive of this, and the fans also have to get on board with the reality of the situation. I really wish I had the answer to this - link access to the Millenium to Regional membership rather than the clubs ? Would go down like a cup of cold sick but "something must be done" to change things?

Competitive Welsh teams will impact on the Irish as well as they won't be able to rotate the top players if they need to qualify for the HEC replacement.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:As I mentioned earlier, ALL sides rest rotate squads with an eye on the biggest prize in club rugby, this is nothing new and certainly not something that is only done by Irish sides. Leinster are effectively only left in 1 competition so it stands to reason that they would have an eye on the Toulon match. I also gave an example of Munster fielding their strongest side on the weekend which also disproves your point that Irish sides do not field their strongest sides in the Pro-12.

Rubbish. Dragons are only left in one competition as well, in fact they have a day less to organise themselves yet they put their best side out yesterday, so please do not give me this concentrating on Europe tripe, in fact, that is all the Irish provinces have ever done, concentrate on Europe, the Irish provinces never put a full side out during the league unless it is an Irish derby. Doing that, along with our in fighting, rubbish Italian sides, and Scottish teams rammed packed full of NSQ players, this is what is dragging our league down.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:As I mentioned earlier, ALL sides rest rotate squads with an eye on the biggest prize in club rugby, this is nothing new and certainly not something that is only done by Irish sides. Leinster are effectively only left in 1 competition so it stands to reason that they would have an eye on the Toulon match. I also gave an example of Munster fielding their strongest side on the weekend which also disproves your point that Irish sides do not field their strongest sides in the Pro-12.

Rubbish. Dragons are only left in one competition as well, in fact they have a day less to organise themselves yet they put their best side out yesterday, so please do not give me this concentrating on Europe tripe, in fact, that is all the Irish provinces have ever done, concentrate on Europe, the Irish provinces never put a full side out during the league unless it is an Irish derby. Doing that, along with our in fighting, rubbish Italian sides, and Scottish teams rammed packed full of NSQ players, this is what is dragging our league down.

No, the difference is. Leinster actually have much more strength in depth than the Dragons so were able to put out a side with an eye on the semi final. Do you still not have a response to the side that Munster put out against Edinburgh or is your focus purely on what Irish sides are perceived to do only against the Welsh sides?

Look, the Irish provinces have done it since the league started, NEVER have I seen a full strength Irish province other than Connacht bring a full strength side to Wales in the league, and that is PART of the reason why people do not take our league seriously, it's not just that though, there are other factors from all four countries that are not helping, it's just that people like you only want to focus on the Welsh squabbles with each other and blame everything on the Welsh, when in reality it is everybody's fault.

None of the teams rotate by choice (unless you're Schmidt who used it as a weapon).  but no sides are good enough or have sufficient quality in squads to rotate by choice....  It's simply necessity.  If you're in two contests with one squad where there is a big distinction between Best players and Training Field players then you must select where and when to play players accordingly as the year progresses and determined by which competitions you're in the running for.
ADD to that that smaller nations will have more players being used up in each team by International, then it's obvious you can't function at premium level at all times in a season.  It's maths and strategic planning that gets you as far as you can.

There is NO way on this planet that ANY Pro12 team will have their Best teams out all year in Pro12 IF they have ambitions to do well in other European contest and if they have International duties.  It doesn't matter how you market Pro12 or change this rule or that rule - full all-out attention given to Pro12 games week in and week out will not happen.
Indeed, to do so it another self foot-shot as it gets back to Schmidt and how he used his rotation policy as a weapon.  He gave his lesser players their time but he demanded the same standards from them and gave them his full attention before the game at the weekend.  HE COACHED.  He didn't whistle and smoke and moan as he waited for his Best Players to return to him.  He used his time to COACH better standards from his lesser players so that when they did step up into European level, they were more ready to play a real part.

Best Players always out and run into the ground for the sake of Crowds and TV is balderdash.  And if TV forces it then it's they who are controlling where competitiveness goes in Europe...yep, back to the big boys in England and France....where the lovely Moneeeeee is.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, the Irish provinces have done it since the league started, NEVER have I seen a full strength Irish province other than Connacht bring a full strength side to Wales in the league, and that is PART of the reason why people do not take our league seriously, it's not just that though, there are other factors from all four countries that are not helping, it's just that people like you only want to focus on the Welsh squabbles with each other and blame everything on the Welsh, when in reality it is everybody's fault.

Ok, so its just the Welsh that the Irish don't take seriously then given the fact that when proof of Irish sides (Munster) fielding their strongest team you have no counter argument.

I have never blamed the Welsh for anything myself but it seems very clear that you have a strong issue with the Irish.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I don't consider myself part of any wolf pack LD, mine was a response to your claim that Irish sides don't put out full strength sides, something I believe to be factually wrong.

Then would you care to evaluate the Leinster side at RP yesterday ?

You mean 11 Irish internationals, a Springbok, plus their first choice 10 and 13 isn't a strong side?

LordDowlais wrote:I seen a full strength Irish province other than Connacht bring a full strength side to Wales in the league

Brian O'Driscoll didn't play a league game in Wales during the last 6 years of his career.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, the Irish provinces have done it since the league started, NEVER have I seen a full strength Irish province other than Connacht bring a full strength side to Wales in the league, and that is PART of the reason why people do not take our league seriously, it's not just that though, there are other factors from all four countries that are not helping, it's just that people like you only want to focus on the Welsh squabbles with each other and blame everything on the Welsh, when in reality it is everybody's fault.

You're going to see exactly the same thing happening with the dual contracted players in Wales now. If Sam Warburton can play 16 games a season maximum, will Cardiff Blues pick him in front of their home fans to sell tickets and season tickets, with kids wanting to see the best players and the internationals... or will they play him in away games with few traveling supporters?

I would be of the view that it's better to have the Union bear the bulk of the cost of retaining our best players and see them in 50% of games due to them having rest schedules designed to make them peak for test rugby, than have the provinces be solely responsible for their contracts and have them play 100% of their club rugby in England and France. It seems the Welsh regions have finally come around to that way of thinking themselves.

It's a false equivalence drawn between the leagues. We can never be like the Top14 and English premiership in terms of selection policy and have a competitive international team. It's easy to say that it's a fault with the league- and I suppose it is- but a realist understands why it is that way, its not perfect but the alternative is way worse. The regions proved it; going it alone leads to a player drain. Munster are a damn sight more likely to field Paul O'Connell and Conor Murray in Wales than Scarlets are to field George North in Ireland.

The trick to the attendance difference between Ireland and Wales is Ireland we're good at getting people to come out to watch the home team, and not worry about who the visitors might be fielding.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:As I mentioned earlier, ALL sides rest rotate squads with an eye on the biggest prize in club rugby, this is nothing new and certainly not something that is only done by Irish sides. Leinster are effectively only left in 1 competition so it stands to reason that they would have an eye on the Toulon match. I also gave an example of Munster fielding their strongest side on the weekend which also disproves your point that Irish sides do not field their strongest sides in the Pro-12.

Rubbish. Dragons are only left in one competition as well, in fact they have a day less to organise themselves yet they put their best side out yesterday, so please do not give me this concentrating on Europe tripe, in fact, that is all the Irish provinces have ever done, concentrate on Europe, the Irish provinces never put a full side out during the league unless it is an Irish derby. Doing that, along with our in fighting, rubbish Italian sides, and Scottish teams rammed packed full of NSQ players, this is what is dragging our league down.

Edinburgh v Munster - starting XV 12 SQ, 3 NSQ; bench 5 SQ, 3 NSQ
Edinburgh v LI - starting XV 12 SQ, 3 NSQ; bench 5 SQ, 3 NSQ

Warriors v Cardiff - starting XV 13 SQ, 2 NSQ; bench 6 SQ, 2 NSQ
Warriors v Leinster - starting XV 12 SQ, 3 NSQ; bench 6 SQ, 2 NSQ

Not quite rammed packed full

Notch wrote:You're going to see exactly the same thing happening with the dual contracted players in Wales now.

I know, and that is what is going to make our league less attractive to sponsors. It is not all down to the Welsh squabbling with each other though.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:You're going to see exactly the same thing happening with the dual contracted players in Wales now.

I know, and that is what is going to make our league less attractive to sponsors. It is not all down to the Welsh squabbling with each other though.

I'd rather sponsor a league that can put out players like North and Jonathon Davies and Halfpenny only some of the time than sponsor a league with those guys absent altogether.

There's no perfect solution. I won't blame teams for resting their dual contracted players in Ravenhill. You'll find it's better in the long run for everyone. I'm looking at the way Josh Navidi is shining for the Blues now, wouldn't have had so many chances if it wasn't for Warburtons international duty and injuries. Ospreys just lost a fine open side flanker who was behind Tipuric.

You need to be able to give players behind the internationals games too.

Notch wrote: I'm looking at the way Josh Navidi is shining for the Blues now, wouldn't have had so many chances if it wasn't for Warburtons international duty and injuries. .

Navidi and Warburton play different positions though.

Weegie Wizard wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:As I mentioned earlier, ALL sides rest rotate squads with an eye on the biggest prize in club rugby, this is nothing new and certainly not something that is only done by Irish sides. Leinster are effectively only left in 1 competition so it stands to reason that they would have an eye on the Toulon match. I also gave an example of Munster fielding their strongest side on the weekend which also disproves your point that Irish sides do not field their strongest sides in the Pro-12.

Rubbish. Dragons are only left in one competition as well, in fact they have a day less to organise themselves yet they put their best side out yesterday, so please do not give me this concentrating on Europe tripe, in fact, that is all the Irish provinces have ever done, concentrate on Europe, the Irish provinces never put a full side out during the league unless it is an Irish derby. Doing that, along with our in fighting, rubbish Italian sides, and Scottish teams rammed packed full of NSQ players, this is what is dragging our league down.

Edinburgh v Munster - starting XV 12 SQ, 3 NSQ; bench 5 SQ, 3 NSQ
Edinburgh v LI - starting XV 12 SQ, 3 NSQ; bench 5 SQ, 3 NSQ

Warriors v Cardiff - starting XV 13 SQ, 2 NSQ; bench 6 SQ, 2 NSQ
Warriors v Leinster - starting XV 12 SQ, 3 NSQ; bench 6 SQ, 2 NSQ

Not quite rammed packed full

How many of those SQ have become qualified on residency ? The thing is, sponsors want to see British/Irish star players, they want household names, they do not want Johnny mercenary from South Africa who nobody has ever heard of, we could ALL be doing a lot better for our league, it is not all down to us Welsh squabbling with each other.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I seen a full strength Irish province other than Connacht bring a full strength side to Wales in the league

Brian O'Driscoll didn't play a league game in Wales during the last 6 years of his career.

In France they just send their 2nd team to away games and mostly lose them (except for the Toulons of this world who have a high quality squad of aging imports).

Its acceptable to lose your away games in France - probably do it that way so that it looks competitive.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I seen a full strength Irish province other than Connacht bring a full strength side to Wales in the league

Brian O'Driscoll didn't play a league game in Wales during the last 6 years of his career.

That's why he lasted the six years

Sin é wrote:

In France they just send their 2nd team to away games and mostly lose them (except for the Toulons of this world who have a high quality squad of aging imports).

Wow, Oyonnaux must have some depth then, they just beat Clermont in Clermont.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:I agree Sin, but be careful as TJ has stated that the Welsh whingeing about this is tarnishing the league. Wouldn't want you tarred with the same brush as us.  

Yeah, you have got to laugh haven't you ? It's all the fault of the Welsh that the league has no credibility because of our in fighting, but at least we have always tried to put out our strongest sides in the league, I do not think I have EVER seen a full strength Irish side rock up at the regions for a league game.

Ulster XV and replacements to face Scarlets, Guinness PRO12, Parc Y Scarlets, Saturday 6th September (kick off 14:40): (15-9) L Ludik, M Allen, J Payne, S Olding, C Gilroy, I Humphreys, P Marshall; (1-9); C Black, R Herring, W Herbst, D Tuohy, F van der Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson (C); Replacements: J Andrew, A Warwick, D Fitzpatrick, L Stevenson, N Williams, M Heaney, L Marshall, A Trimble.

Pienaar, Bowe and Jackson missing through injury and Trimble was rested

Ulster starting XV & replacements to play Cardiff Blues, Guinness PRO12, BT Sport Cardiff Arms Park, Friday 19th September, 7.35pm: (15-9): L Ludik A Trimble, D Cave, S Olding, T Bowe; P Jackson, P Marshall; (1-8): A Warwick, R Best (c), W Herbst, D Tuohy, F van der Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, B Ross, N McComb, R Wilson, M Heaney, I Humphreys, C Gilroy.

Pienaar was out injured so missed this game

Ulster: L Ludik; T Bowe, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; I Humphreys, R Pienaar; A Warwick, R Best (capt), D Fitzpatrick; D Tuohy, F vd Merwe; R Diack, C Ross, R Wilson

Jackson and Trimble the only ones missing from a full strength side

So from 4 games in Wales, Ulster played as strong a team as they could in two and had one player from their strongest possible team on the bench and the forth game was during the international window when players were on international duty

Not to mention that all but one Irish international plays in Ireland, meaning that many of them miss games through international commitments which isn't the same for the Welsh

LordDowlais wrote:
How many of those SQ have become qualified on residency ? The thing is, sponsors want to see British/Irish star players, they want household names, they do not want Johnny mercenary from South Africa who nobody has ever heard of, we could ALL be doing a lot better for our league, it is not all down to us Welsh squabbling with each other.

Bullschit Lord.  They want to see great rugby - period.  I remember sitting through one of BOD's last games against Munster......... all the Irish Internationals involved!  Seismic stuff at Lansdowne with all the marketing hype anyway...................................... a snoozefest.  And no not worth it to see all the big stars playing.  
It's just a myth.  Going back to Warburton - no his fans don't want to see him cruise through a game in 1st gear.  It's better he didn't show up for those kind of games.  They want to see those players PLAY.  It's the game that counts and when Stars show, the crowd think they might have a game.  But that's a myth.  The game doesn't always follow the stars.

This thread has been a very interesting read. Some genuine debate. Shame I'm just a troll /WUM.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:I agree Sin, but be careful as TJ has stated that the Welsh whingeing about this is tarnishing the league. Wouldn't want you tarred with the same brush as us.  

Yeah, you have got to laugh haven't you ? It's all the fault of the Welsh that the league has no credibility because of our in fighting, but at least we have always tried to put out our strongest sides in the league, I do not think I have EVER seen a full strength Irish side rock up at the regions for a league game.

Ulster XV and replacements to face Scarlets, Guinness PRO12, Parc Y Scarlets, Saturday 6th September (kick off 14:40): (15-9) L Ludik, M Allen, J Payne, S Olding, C Gilroy, I Humphreys, P Marshall; (1-9); C Black, R Herring, W Herbst, D Tuohy, F van der Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson (C); Replacements: J Andrew, A Warwick, D Fitzpatrick, L Stevenson, N Williams, M Heaney, L Marshall, A Trimble.

Pienaar, Bowe and Jackson missing through injury and Trimble was rested

Ulster starting XV & replacements to play Cardiff Blues, Guinness PRO12, BT Sport Cardiff Arms Park, Friday 19th September, 7.35pm: (15-9): L Ludik A Trimble, D Cave, S Olding, T Bowe; P Jackson, P Marshall; (1-8): A Warwick, R Best (c), W Herbst, D Tuohy, F van der Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, B Ross, N McComb, R Wilson, M Heaney, I Humphreys, C Gilroy.

Pienaar was out injured so missed this game

Ulster: L Ludik; T Bowe, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; I Humphreys, R Pienaar; A Warwick, R Best (capt), D Fitzpatrick; D Tuohy, F vd Merwe; R Diack, C Ross, R Wilson

Jackson and Trimble the only ones missing from a full strength side  

So from 4 games in Wales, Ulster played as strong a team as they could in two and had one player from their strongest possible team on the bench and the forth game was during the international window when players were on international duty

Not to mention that all but one Irish international plays in Ireland, meaning that many of them miss games through international commitments which isn't the same for the Welsh

Still not full strength though, so what I am saying is right.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:I agree Sin, but be careful as TJ has stated that the Welsh whingeing about this is tarnishing the league. Wouldn't want you tarred with the same brush as us.  

Yeah, you have got to laugh haven't you ? It's all the fault of the Welsh that the league has no credibility because of our in fighting, but at least we have always tried to put out our strongest sides in the league, I do not think I have EVER seen a full strength Irish side rock up at the regions for a league game.

Ulster XV and replacements to face Scarlets, Guinness PRO12, Parc Y Scarlets, Saturday 6th September (kick off 14:40): (15-9) L Ludik, M Allen, J Payne, S Olding, C Gilroy, I Humphreys, P Marshall; (1-9); C Black, R Herring, W Herbst, D Tuohy, F van der Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson (C); Replacements: J Andrew, A Warwick, D Fitzpatrick, L Stevenson, N Williams, M Heaney, L Marshall, A Trimble.

Pienaar, Bowe and Jackson missing through injury and Trimble was rested

Ulster starting XV & replacements to play Cardiff Blues, Guinness PRO12, BT Sport Cardiff Arms Park, Friday 19th September, 7.35pm: (15-9): L Ludik A Trimble, D Cave, S Olding, T Bowe; P Jackson, P Marshall; (1-8): A Warwick, R Best (c), W Herbst, D Tuohy, F van der Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, B Ross, N McComb, R Wilson, M Heaney, I Humphreys, C Gilroy.

Pienaar was out injured so missed this game

Ulster: L Ludik; T Bowe, D Cave, L Marshall, M Allen; I Humphreys, R Pienaar; A Warwick, R Best (capt), D Fitzpatrick; D Tuohy, F vd Merwe; R Diack, C Ross, R Wilson

Jackson and Trimble the only ones missing from a full strength side  

So from 4 games in Wales, Ulster played as strong a team as they could in two and had one player from their strongest possible team on the bench and the forth game was during the international window when players were on international duty

Not to mention that all but one Irish international plays in Ireland, meaning that many of them miss games through international commitments which isn't the same for the Welsh

Still not full strength though, so what I am saying is right.

So you expect injured players to play now? Even the Dragons game was the strongest Ulster could field with internationals away and injuries. Dragons didn't have Faletau as he was away with Wales and Byrne was out injured so they weren't at full strength either