Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

I'd echo a few comments above. People talk about population etc but what if the Pro 12 was to become a European league?! There are 50 million people in Italy. Add in Spain, Germany and a few other countries and you'd find that the overall population would dwarf the English and French populations.

It would have to be planned long term with divisions or conferences set up etc. Teams might come and go such as Borders, Celtic Warriors, Aironi etc but more will come.

I'm sure the Romanians would love to be in the Pro 12 and would get decent crowds.

In the short team they can do plenty of things to improve it. Firstly though everyone have to be pulling in the same direction. You get the sense that there are plenty of damaged relationships after the European talks. Mend those bridges and move on.

Get more TV companies to fight it out for the rights to the pro 12. In the Rep Ireland the world cup will be shown on TV3/3E. Those channels NEVER show any rugby. Theres another new channel after starting recently also so along with RTE and TG4 thats 4 potential bidders.

The money in France and England rocketed up when Bein and BT Sport showed up. Another new broadcaster would make the Pro 12 more appealing. Also I'm sure Sky will up their bid the next time.

quinsforever wrote: Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams.

Crap quins.  When you can give me a confirmed print out of actual Saracens spending or Bath spending, then we'll talk.  But obviously even those sides don't seem to know what they're actually spending as distinct from the 'declared' spend.  That's one long investigation going on there by the way???  Any conclusions reached yet? Or maybe it's all over. I haven't been keeping up to date with it.

as you know notch i am not trying to foment trouble.

just observing.

pro12 will never have the commercial clout of PRL or top14. thats just the reality. But the bundesliga in football is a long way behind the english, spanish and italian leagues (in gross revenues of biggest sides), yet their club and national sides enjoy far greater success, and more consistently, than the others.

its about finding the right formula for whats important to you. Wales do very well at national side level, pants at club level as their best players dont play in Wales. that clearly needs to be sorted. Scotlands club and national sides perform in line with each other. And ireland do well at club and national level, without yet really make a decent run at a RWC.

for me, ireland's home support of provinces and filled stadia is the clear difference.

Ireland are the Germany

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote: Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams.

Crap quins.  When you can give me a confirmed print out of actual Saracens spending or Bath spending, then we'll talk.  But obviously even those sides don't seem to know what they're actually spending as distinct from the 'declared' spend.  That's one long investigation going on there by the way???  Any conclusions reached yet?  Or maybe it's all over.  I haven't been keeping up to date with it.

any side that can pay gopperth EUR275k is clearly awash in cash. add in heaslip on 700k and sexton coming back on 800k and you're already at 40% of the PRL wage cap. and thats not mentioning SOB, cronin, POC, POM, the kearneys, etc, etc.

Give me the print outs quins..... confirmed print-outs from post investigations by PRL.....

There is no way Irish sides operate on much bigger budgets than a flush BT top AP sides..... one would wonder why so many English players with such sleek skills stick around for such paltry wages????  

Creative accounting will do them thanks....

oh ps - what's Gopperth going back to AP for? Less?

quinsforever wrote:as you know notch i am not trying to foment trouble.

just observing.

pro12 will never have the commercial clout of PRL or top14. thats just the reality. But the bundesliga in football is a long way behind the english, spanish and italian leagues (in gross revenues of biggest sides), yet their club and national sides enjoy far greater success, and more consistently, than the others.

its about finding the right formula for whats important to you. Wales do very well at national side level, pants at club level as their best players dont play in Wales. that clearly needs to be sorted. Scotlands club and national sides perform in line with each other. And ireland do well at club and national level, without yet really make a decent run at a RWC.

for me, ireland's home support of provinces and filled stadia is the clear difference.

Ireland are the Germany

Not strictly true only 1 of our starting pack in last 3 games played outside Wales, admittedly 4 of the backs did but hopefully the DCs will at least address that.

Welshmushroom wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:WM,

Surely you are contradicting yourself there?  In the above post you say scrap the Challenge Cup as its a massive drain what with the trips to France and the like yet you feel the Pro 12 could benefit from adding teams from Romania.

Not really and I'll explain why.  Firstly I don't believe playing 6 European matches a year does provide enough high level gametime for Romanians to improve.  If you really want them to develop you need to feature them in professional league with 20 games a year.  That would without doubt increase the level of their week in week out fixtures.

Secondly, in my eyes any benefit of the Romanians joining the Pro12 league would exclusively remain within the Pro12.  The long term financial benefits wouldn't have to be shared with anyone.  Under the current format in Europe our English and French counterparts would no doubt remain at getting equal splits from the funded money from Europe regardless if Pro 12 did end up creating a larger slice of the income for the tournament.  That's just the precedent that has been set with the recent changes.  So if Romania did become very commercially viable (not that I'm saying they will as I'm just using them as an example) it would further enhance the gap between French, English and Pro 12 rugby.

I hope this logic makes sense - ive had a beer.

Yeah can see the logic but in a league where logistics/travelling is already a problem I don't see how adding other 'overseas' teams will help at the moment.

profitius wrote:I'd echo a few comments above. People talk about population etc but what if the Pro 12 was to become a European league?! There are 50 million people in Italy. Add in Spain, Germany and a few other countries and you'd find that the overall population would dwarf the English and French populations.

It would have to be planned long term with divisions or conferences set up etc.

And that's my view. There isn't a limit to the way it could be setup in terms of team numbers and countries involved. Although I think ERC do have to approve any additions to the Pro12 as I believe they have special rights that prevent additional nations joining a league format instead of Europe. That said given the teams joining would be developing nations I cant see them standing in the way there at the beginning.

I wouldn't have divisions in terms of Upper and lower. Instead I would copy the American Basketball and Baseball formats with West and East League divisions. That way say you could bunch 3/4 countries in one league and the same in the other with the top 4 from each qualifying for Pro 12 qtr final matches. Until there was enough teams to balance the 2 divisions correctly they could increase to 22 teams but scrap home and away games. Basically each team only plays the other once a season. So if Leinster played Munster at home one year they would face them away next season and so on.

That also could serve as a potential increase in crowds as these matches would be far less regular and should increase the aura of fixtures. Similar to how internationals years ago would only see SH opposition arrive very infrequently which served to increase the popularity of these fixtures. I reckon potentially 24 teams could be more than enough to accommodate a whole host of countries. That said it would have to be fazed in gradually. So once the Italians start becoming competitive another nation could be looked at. Granted this cycle could turn out to take 30 years but could be magnificent by the end of it.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:WM,

Surely you are contradicting yourself there?  In the above post you say scrap the Challenge Cup as its a massive drain what with the trips to France and the like yet you feel the Pro 12 could benefit from adding teams from Romania.

Not really and I'll explain why.  Firstly I don't believe playing 6 European matches a year does provide enough high level gametime for Romanians to improve.  If you really want them to develop you need to feature them in professional league with 20 games a year.  That would without doubt increase the level of their week in week out fixtures.

Secondly, in my eyes any benefit of the Romanians joining the Pro12 league would exclusively remain within the Pro12.  The long term financial benefits wouldn't have to be shared with anyone.  Under the current format in Europe our English and French counterparts would no doubt remain at getting equal splits from the funded money from Europe regardless if Pro 12 did end up creating a larger slice of the income for the tournament.  That's just the precedent that has been set with the recent changes.  So if Romania did become very commercially viable (not that I'm saying they will as I'm just using them as an example) it would further enhance the gap between French, English and Pro 12 rugby.

I hope this logic makes sense - ive had a beer.

Yeah can see the logic but in a league where logistics/travelling is already a problem I don't see how adding other 'overseas' teams will help at the moment.  

See my previous post above. The conference style setup above could in the long term keep commitments the same. For example lets assume Scotland, Ireland and Wales provided 4 teams each in the Western conference. Italy, Romania and another close locational deserving nation could form the other conference. The only time those sides would then have to travel substantially would be in the qtr final stages and with those attendances should subsidize itself. Granted I think it would take 30 years to develop the teams within the new nations to allow 2 competitive divisions.

SecretFly wrote:Give me the print outs quins..... confirmed print-outs from post investigations by PRL.....

There is no way Irish sides operate on much bigger budgets than a flush BT top AP sides..... one would wonder why so many English players with such sleek skills stick around for such paltry wages????  

Creative accounting will do them thanks....

oh ps - what's Gopperth going back to AP for?  Less?

yes

What's he getting?

Less

You don't know, that's what.....

And neither do his employers............... "Oh it's Gopher back again??? ....right Gopphy, what we got for you is something along the lines of a proper wage like, but with maybe a house or two thrown in that we'll put on the team books that won't be yours but you'll own...Oh I don't bleedin' know really yet - we'll sort something out, mate"

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote: Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams.

Crap quins.  When you can give me a confirmed print out of actual Saracens spending or Bath spending, then we'll talk.  But obviously even those sides don't seem to know what they're actually spending as distinct from the 'declared' spend.  That's one long investigation going on there by the way???  Any conclusions reached yet?  Or maybe it's all over.  I haven't been keeping up to date with it.

any side that can pay gopperth EUR275k is clearly awash in cash. add in heaslip on 700k and sexton coming back on 800k and you're already at 40% of the PRL wage cap. and thats not mentioning SOB, cronin, POC, POM, the kearneys, etc, etc.

Not all of that money is paid by Leinster of course, but they still have a formidable wage bill even when the IRFUs share is deducted.

The main reason Leinster can afford to pay Gopperth that much is that the number of internationals they have surely means the IRFU subsidises their wage bill more than any other province.

I think we'll go on a spending spree and buy young Ford, Nowell and Billy now to replace Gopperth. The three of them together must be the same price as Gopperth on his own.

SecretFly wrote:You don't know, that's what.....  

And neither do his employers...............  "Oh it's Gopher back again??? ....right Gopphy, what we got for you is something along the lines of a proper wage like, but with maybe a house or two thrown in that we'll put on the team books that won't be yours but you'll own...Oh I don't bleedin' know really yet - we'll sort something out, mate"

if he goes to wasps he will be first choice 10. and he will still be paid less that as generalist backs cover at leinster. isnt that all one needs to know?

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote: Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams.

Crap quins.  When you can give me a confirmed print out of actual Saracens spending or Bath spending, then we'll talk.  But obviously even those sides don't seem to know what they're actually spending as distinct from the 'declared' spend.  That's one long investigation going on there by the way???  Any conclusions reached yet?  Or maybe it's all over.  I haven't been keeping up to date with it.

any side that can pay gopperth EUR275k is clearly awash in cash. add in heaslip on 700k and sexton coming back on 800k and you're already at 40% of the PRL wage cap. and thats not mentioning SOB, cronin, POC, POM, the kearneys, etc, etc.

Not all of that money is paid by Leinster of course, but they still have a formidable wage bill even when the IRFUs share is deducted.

The main reason Leinster can afford to pay Gopperth that much is that the number of internationals they have surely means the IRFU subsidises their wage bill more than any other province.

am sure you are right.

bet the irfu are kicking themselves over heaslips fat contract. is he really worth 3 TOD's?

"if he goes to wasps he will be first choice 10. and he will still be paid less that as generalist backs cover at leinster. isnt that all one needs to know?"

all one needs to know is how much he'll get.....

quinsforever wrote:

bet the irfu are kicking themselves over heaslips fat contract. is he really worth 3 TOD's?

Yeah. 3 Pro12 titles, 3 HECs, 3 6Ns. Yeah, he's worth a bit. It's always strange how much Irish players have to achieve before people are willing to say they're worth it. I have a lot of fun with that one.

wonder how much fans of the other provinces think heaslip's worth, given that they are subsidizing him via the irfu?

quinsforever wrote:wonder how much fans of the other provinces think heaslip's worth, given that they are subsidizing him via the irfu?

Its the way it works in Ireland. Money goes from the IRFU to the provinces and vice versa. Players contracts are a mix of central and provincial. Fine by me concerning Heaslip. Not sure what your problem is with it though

no problem at all. he's your player. pay him what you will. his compensation is just a good example of how ireland are leagues ahead of the rest of their pro12 rivals.

and also AP clubs.

and i have no problem with that either. i just like to remind people of their hypocrisy in claiming that PRL were destroying rugby by bidding up player values.

Well the main difference is the sustainability factor. IRFU are not a sugardaddy with bottomless pockets...some players in Ireland are worth slightly more but in terms of bidding up player values you should also note that we dont have a huge amount of non irish qualified players within the provinces and there are specific rules concerning that. Not rules the PRL or Top14 have.

The real salaries of the top four AP sides when all inducements and financial incentives are added in.....

No hypocrisy - the taunt was always directed at French rugby and the idea was that English rugby would finally feel the pressure and enter the cappless race too. It's already been talked about and will be talked about again.

Meanwhile all financial inducements given to current top players in England would need to be on the table before we can deduce where caps start and where they get bypassed.

ME-109 wrote:Well the main difference is the sustainability factor. IRFU are not a sugardaddy with bottomless pockets...some players in Ireland are worth slightly more but in terms of bidding up player values you should also note that we dont have a huge amount of non irish qualified players within the provinces and there are specific rules concerning that. Not rules the PRL or Top14 have.

agreed. that's why the sugardaddies fund your top players directly, in addition to province and irfu pay.

people in glass houses...

ME-109 wrote:Well the main difference is the sustainability factor. IRFU are not a sugardaddy with bottomless pockets...some players in Ireland are worth slightly more but in terms of bidding up player values you should also note that we dont have a huge amount of non irish qualified players within the provinces and there are specific rules concerning that. Not rules the PRL or Top14 have.

AP clubs have a 65% EQ rule. and current run rate in matchday squads is over 70%.

There is some sponsorship deals alright and maybe some individuals forking out for the odd player but thats it. As Fly said all financial inducements need to be on the table. The IRFU and the provinces publish their accounts...

Quins - any eviedence for "Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams." because by my understanding all teams are on similar amounts.

Heaslip gets paid what the market is prepared to pay for him - that's professional sport for you. What's amazing is that all those elite English players who get only a fraction of that aren't tempted by offers from France, or maybe the market doesn't rate them?

The Great Aukster wrote:Heaslip gets paid what the market is prepared to pay for him - that's professional sport for you. What's amazing is that all those elite English players who get only a fraction of that aren't tempted by offers from France, or maybe the market doesn't rate them?

I think it may be more to do with SL rigidly sticking to the play in England to play for England rule. I wonder if he did select Armitage would that open the flood gates?

The Great Aukster wrote:Heaslip gets paid what the market is prepared to pay for him - that's professional sport for you. What's amazing is that all those elite English players who get only a fraction of that aren't tempted by offers from France, or maybe the market doesn't rate them?

Depends what kind of market pays them - white or black?

The Great Aukster wrote:Heaslip gets paid what the market is prepared to pay for him - that's professional sport for you. What's amazing is that all those elite English players who get only a fraction of that aren't tempted by offers from France, or maybe the market doesn't rate them?

no, unlike the irish, scots and welsh, the RFU have a policy of not picking overseas players for the national side. that is why the top english players who still have national team ambitions stay. irrespective of the money offered in france. wilkinson got paid a lot more than sexton btw...

is no surprise that three of the current top players of the top two french sides are english. abendanon, and the two armitages. they left because they thought their chances with the national side were over.

try reading before posting.

The English players get big bonuses though from the RFU as well as being rested in a number of AP matches. So there are some sweetners thrown in for them.

TJ wrote:Quins - any eviedence for "Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams." because by my understanding all teams are on similar amounts.  

no proof but lots of evidence.

did back of envelope few months back and reckon leinster pay 50% more per player than AP clubs. lots of factors -
AP clubs have bigger squads
leinster have more centrally contracted IRFU players
leinster have smaller squad
RFU policy of not picking overseas players means there is no need to overpay to keep players in England (Sexton, Heaslip, SOB, etc bidding nonsense last season wrt Toulon and others)
connact have 50% of the funding from irfu of the other 3 provinces

and thats ignoring the personal sponsorship of dennis o'brien of certain players

and also ignoring the speculated payments of bath and sarries who fly frequently claims are over the salary cap.

We know Wilko got more than Sexton, quins.  Are we meant to be boasting about how little or how much we all pay our players?

I'm confused.  If I knew the game I'd try to play the proper tactics.

Anyway, count yourself lucky, quins, that you have 12 teams to collect a nice hoard together at any time that would form a functional International squad.  Nice numbers when you have them but some of us just don't.

But then that's pretty much half the debate on the new Euro contest anyway!!!!

quinsforever wrote:

TJ wrote:Quins - any eviedence for "Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams." because by my understanding all teams are on similar amounts.  

no proof but lots of evidence. stuff I made up without looking at the full facts.

did back of envelope few months back and reckon leinster pay 50% more per player than AP clubs. lots of factors -
AP clubs have bigger squads
leinster have more centrally contracted IRFU players
leinster have smaller squad
RFU policy of not picking overseas players means there is no need to overpay to keep players in England (Sexton, Heaslip, SOB, etc bidding nonsense last season wrt Toulon and others)
connact have 50% of the funding from irfu of the other 3 provinces

and thats ignoring the personal sponsorship of dennis o'brien of certain players

and also ignoring the speculated payments of bath and sarries who fly frequently claims are over the salary cap.

D- for lack of facts. A+ for lots of made up stuff

profitius wrote:The English players get big bonuses though from the RFU as well as being rested in a number of AP matches. So there are some sweetners thrown in for them.

yeah i heard they get bonuses that would make bankers envious. all 44 members of the EPS. whether they play or not. whatever the result.

in fact their 6N's bonuses per match were almost as much as the irish players....except no tax advantage...

SecretFly wrote:We know Wilko got more than Sexton, quins.  Are we meant to be boasting about how little or how much we all pay our players?

I'm confused.  If I knew the game I'd try to play the proper tactics.

Anyway, count yourself lucky, quins, that you have 12 teams to collect a nice hoard together at any time that would form a functional International squad.  Nice numbers when you have them but some of us just don't.

But then that's pretty much half the debate on the new Euro contest anyway!!!!

no, i was just responding to a particularly stupid snide remark from someone forgettable about hoe english players are too crap to command decent salaries from french clubs

quinsforever wrote:

TJ wrote:Quins - any eviedence for "Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams." because by my understanding all teams are on similar amounts.  

no proof but lots of evidence.

did back of envelope few months back and reckon leinster pay 50% more per player than AP clubs. lots of factors -
AP clubs have bigger squads
leinster have more centrally contracted IRFU players
leinster have smaller squad
RFU policy of not picking overseas players means there is no need to overpay to keep players in England (Sexton, Heaslip, SOB, etc bidding nonsense last season wrt Toulon and others)
connact have 50% of the funding from irfu of the other 3 provinces

and thats ignoring the personal sponsorship of dennis o'brien of certain players

and also ignoring the speculated payments of bath and sarries who fly frequently claims are over the salary cap.

So your facts are all circumstantial thinking?

Do try to circumstantially think about what bonuses and incentives the best English players might be getting above normal salaries?  You keep evading that thought experiment

ME-109 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

TJ wrote:Quins - any eviedence for "Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams." because by my understanding all teams are on similar amounts.  

no proof but lots of evidence. stuff I made up without looking at the full facts.

did back of envelope few months back and reckon leinster pay 50% more per player than AP clubs. lots of factors - WILL DIG IT UP
AP clubs have bigger squads - TRUE
leinster have more centrally contracted IRFU players - TRUE COMPARED TO OTHER PROVINCES
leinster have smaller squad - TRUE VS AP SQUADS
RFU policy of not picking overseas players means there is no need to overpay to keep players in England (Sexton, Heaslip, SOB, etc bidding nonsense last season wrt Toulon and others) - TRUE
connact have 50% of the funding from irfu of the other 3 provinces - TRUE. IS ON IRFU WEBSITE

and thats ignoring the personal sponsorship of dennis o'brien of certain players - TRUE

and also ignoring the speculated payments of bath and sarries who fly frequently claims are over the salary cap.

D- for lack of facts. A+ for lots of made up stuff

mostly true actually

You could say that the play in England to play for England has been detrimental to the National side. When did it start to become so rigidly enforced Quins? Was it under Jonno or before?

Wales and Ireland haven't been as strict with their rulings and Wales certainly can't compete with the French but it hasn't really affected us on the International stage.

quinsforever wrote:

AP clubs have bigger squads - TRUE
leinster have smaller squad - TRUE VS AP SQUADS

Saracens site - squad 43
Northampton Saints site - squad 41
Bath site - squad 36
Leicester site - squad 49
Exeter Chiefs site - squad 52
Wasps site - squad 45
Harlequins site - squad 37

Leinster site - squad 42


?  

That's two solid facts you had, quins, was it?

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote: Irish provinces have far higher wage bills (when you include central contracts) than PRL teams.

Crap quins.  When you can give me a confirmed print out of actual Saracens spending or Bath spending, then we'll talk.  But obviously even those sides don't seem to know what they're actually spending as distinct from the 'declared' spend.  That's one long investigation going on there by the way???  Any conclusions reached yet?  Or maybe it's all over.  I haven't been keeping up to date with it.

any side that can pay gopperth EUR275k is clearly awash in cash. add in heaslip on 700k and sexton coming back on 800k and you're already at 40% of the PRL wage cap. and thats not mentioning SOB, cronin, POC, POM, the kearneys, etc, etc.

If an AP squad is say 50, that would mean every player on average gets 90k euro p.a. which is equivalent to £65k. They aren't all elite players being tied to the national selection policy so why don't they move to France where they would get paid double?

Because I guess the French are only interested in elite/marque signings.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Because I guess the French are only interested in elite/marque signings.

So it is market forces...

It's all supposition about salaries and contracts because patently no one knows. Pity that a troll ruined an otherwise sensible debate though.

It would be interesting though to see how many would go if they suddenly picked Armitage.

bedfordwelsh wrote:It would be interesting though to see how many would go if they suddenly picked Armitage.

None. The day a foreign based player is picked is the day PRL prod again about ending the artificial limits on English Premiership sides employing such players in the first place.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I do get the point though, but to just say having a Euro Champ in the league will mean more money into the league, as if that is the law, just doesn't work.

Just so I understand you, you believe that having a European champ in the Pro-12 actually brings nothing to the league and it stays the same?


As I have said previously, keeping sponsorship these days is as good as getting one. It also brings extra exposure, garners more interest in the league (by means of attendance and even shirt sales) that benefit all clubs. Of course success breeds more money, its the way of the world in all walks of life.

I am saying I can not remember any new sponsors suddenly appearing after a HEC championship. I am saying that you can not prove that a sponsor has stayed purely because of a HEC championship. I am also saying, as Fly pointed out, the league actually have a bigger sponsor since having no HEC champions than we did when we had a reigning HEC champion.

SecretFly wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:It would be interesting though to see how many would go if they suddenly picked Armitage.

None.  The day a foreign based player is picked is the day PRL prod again about ending the artificial limits on English Premiership sides employing such players in the first place.  

There are continued rumblings about SL ignoring Armitage so you can never say never.

SecretFly wrote:

There is no way Irish sides operate on much bigger budgets than a flush BT top AP sides  Less?

Of course they are. I posted up a while ago how much they were spending on wages. It's way above most Aviva Premiership sides and near to most French sides.

Overall, the Irish sides are probably performing below where they should be given what they spend.