Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, I am of the opinion, that if every side in the league played their best players against each other week in week out, then not only would it raise the profile of our league, it would attract more money, more fans, and command a lot more respect off our rivals.

Unrealistic and naive. Are you willing to give up the international games? They would have to play less internationals, and shorten the length of the season so that players can get adequate rest and play to the best of their ability.

Rugby is a squad game. In the World Cup you won't see the best players lining up at every game.

A British & Irish league is not going to happen. Waste of time even thinking about it.

The Premiership is too interested in preserving what they have, ring fencing themselves into possibly a 14 team league, and removing the salary cap. That, in their view, will allow them to compete more with the French. Bringing in regional, poorly supported teams from Wales will provide the occasional bit of Anglo-Welsh excitement, but just more problems than benefits in the long-term. And whilst some CEOs of AP Clubs might like to say off the record that they'd like to be playing the likes of Ulster, Munster and Leinster for the crowds they attract home and away, they're not going to step out of line with PRL HQ.

And even if there were to be consideration of it, it's a long way off. So right now, the focus has to be on improving the lot of the Pro 12 - and making it more saleable, attractive to TV, sponsors, and potentially down the line, other league owners such as the AP who might start to see some value in it, through the clubs that play in it.

The Welsh teams need to get their best players back, so at least they have the option of resting and rotating them during the season. Two welsh teams need to be in the playoffs on a consistent basis, and not always the same two.
Scottish teams to be more competitive in the league and in Euro comps - either of the comps. Edinburgh to win the Challenge Cup this season or next - why not?
Irish teams to play their best players every week, and not bother with Euro comps for next couple of seasons. Or else be more competitive and get four Irish teams qualified for European rugby the following season, and at least three of them in the Pro12 playoffs.
Italian teams need to do one.

A B&I league isn't going to happen as pointed out before. However lumping the Welsh regions in with the AP sounds like a reasonable idea - along the same lines as the cricket. The AP would only need a 33% increase in sponsorship to break even rather than 100% for a B&I league - so surely that's doable.

They would rekindle old rivalries and be able to keep all their players at home. The benefactors would fit in nicely at the PRL soirees and they would have better referees to ensure they would get fairly treated on-field too.

Travelling costs would be greatly reduced for the working man and there would be no ridiculous Sunday fixtures. What's holding them back?

The Great Aukster wrote:A B&I league isn't going to happen as pointed out before. However lumping the Welsh regions in with the AP sounds like a reasonable idea - along the same lines as the cricket. The AP would only need a 33% increase in sponsorship to break even rather than 100% for a B&I league - so surely that's doable.

They would rekindle old rivalries and be able to keep all their players at home. The benefactors would fit in nicely at the PRL soirees and they would have better referees to ensure they would get fairly treated on-field too.

Travelling costs would be greatly reduced for the working man and there would be no ridiculous Sunday fixtures. What's holding them back?

Just what this debate needs - more sarcasm.

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:In all seriousness, it's a good point. If every nation had it's star players on it's Pro12 teams, we'd be a much more attracive proposition. North and Roberts must be two of the biggest names in NH Rugby. Same for Parisse.

Thank you, and this is all I am saying, big names attract more fans, better sponsors, more money. I remember a few years back when Leinster were the European champs, and they came to Swansea to play Ospreys, there was a paltry crowd of about 7000 at the game, everybody was saying what a poor show it was, that the European champions were in town and hardly anybody turned up to watch Ospreys play them, the thing is, they were only European champions in name, all the players that won that cup were not in Swansea, they were at home with their feet up, if the players who actually won the cup were there I bet there would have been more fans there. The European cup proves this, when better players are out, more fans turn up to watch.

What year was this, LD?

Coincidentally, there's 400 tickets left for the final. Of 18,000. Despite the fact that until very recently, people justifiably thought Ulster would fall out of the top four.

Those sales are precisely why the Ulster bid won.

Don Alfonso wrote:Coincidentally,  there's 400 tickets left for the final. Of 18,000. Despite the fact that until very recently,  people justifiably thought Ulster would fall out of the top four.

Those sales are precisely why the Ulster bid won.

I still say we give it to the region that gets 7000 for their own team against the European champions

Notch wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Coincidentally,  there's 400 tickets left for the final. Of 18,000. Despite the fact that until very recently,  people justifiably thought Ulster would fall out of the top four.

Those sales are precisely why the Ulster bid won.

I still say we give it to the region that gets 7000 for their own team against the European champions

Nice Notch.

While I am not going to follow Notch down the comedy route, I will say that I am proud of that. Can't wait to see what else is organised for the day.

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Coincidentally,  there's 400 tickets left for the final. Of 18,000. Despite the fact that until very recently,  people justifiably thought Ulster would fall out of the top four.

Those sales are precisely why the Ulster bid won.

I still say we give it to the region that gets 7000 for their own team against the European champions

Nice Notch.

Just too add: by your logic (sarcastic or not) the European Champions Cup should never be played anywhere else apart from England due to the fact they get the best crowds (e.g. Twickers sell outs). But who would vote for that?

No-one. And I would personally not vote for a Final in Ireland next year (if I had a vote, which of course I do not). It should go to Wales, Scotland and Italy before it comes back here again.

But for the very first one to be played under this new arrangement and with less time to sell tickets than future finals- a final outside Ireland was too risky this year. Only Ulster, Leinster or Munster could guarantee the ticket sales we've gotten.

Don Alfonso wrote:While I am not going to follow Notch down  the comedy route,  I will say that I am proud of that. Can't wait to see what else is organised for the day.

It's awesome Don. No doubt about it. And really chuffed for Ulster. Not that I doubted they could get a good crowd though. But I hope it doesn't set a precedent in that it can only go to the club that can get the biggest crowd. It shouldn't be about that. If it is about that then host it in a national stadium and you'd probably get even more.

I hope other countries do bid for the Final. Glasgow seems the logical choice for 2016, but if the Welsh regions and Italian clubs don't put in any bids (which is very possible, due to financial concerns and concerns over being able to sell enough ticket to make their stake back) we probably will be back in Ireland in 2017.

That would be damaging for the league.

No - it would be good for the league if they bent a few of the rules next season and the Ospreys got it. Or Cardiff.

There has to be a fair bidding process, but a vibrant Ospreys home final would be good.

Notch wrote:I hope other countries do bid for the Final. Glasgow seems the logical choice for 2016, but if the Welsh regions and Italian clubs don't put in any bids (which is very possible, due to financial concerns and concerns over being able to sell enough ticket to make their stake back) we probably will be back in Ireland in 2017.

That would be damaging for the league.

But isn't the bid dependent on certain criteria like number of 5 star hotels in a certain radius? And stadium capacity? So unless someone builds a few more 5 star hotels in Wales by next year then we're out of the running, again. So Ireland by default.

What's wrong with using national stadiums anyway?

Frankly, if you don't have that infrastructure you have no right to be thinking of hosting events like that. It's such an incredibly basic requirement. Even Limerick has two hotels which fit the bill!

Cardiff has loads of hotels...

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-g186460-zfc5-Cardiff_Southern_Wales_Wales-Hotels.html

Nothing wrong with using national stadiums if you can sell the tickets.

Don Alfonso wrote:There has to be a fair bidding process,  but a vibrant Ospreys home final would be good.

That would be good. Fantastic in fact. And not very likely. But at the very least it has to happen even if future discussions about the Final afterwards contain a lot of phrases like "We gave you a chance with the Final, and you f*cked it up". The Welsh regions have to at least be given the chance to succeed in hosting it.

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:I hope other countries do bid for the Final. Glasgow seems the logical choice for 2016, but if the Welsh regions and Italian clubs don't put in any bids (which is very possible, due to financial concerns and concerns over being able to sell enough ticket to make their stake back) we probably will be back in Ireland in 2017.

That would be damaging for the league.

But isn't the bid dependent on certain criteria like number of 5 star hotels in a certain radius? And stadium capacity? So unless someone builds a few more 5 star hotels in Wales by next year then we're out of the running, again. So Ireland by default.

What's wrong with using national stadiums anyway?

What's wrong with any of it? Who is deciding all this stuff that nobody wants? I keep asking the question. So far very slim on real answers coming back. Who said 5 Star Hotels are required? Who objected to it? What kind of fecking meetings are these? Are people walking away pretending they're okay with the conditions then going public with their anger and bitterness?

Notch wrote:Frankly, if you don't have that infrastructure you have no right to be thinking of hosting events like that. It's such an incredibly basic requirement. Even Limerick has two hotels which fit the bill!

Cardiff has...

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-g186460-zfc5-Cardiff_Southern_Wales_Wales-Hotels.html

Nothing wrong with using national stadiums if you can sell the tickets.

There's only one 5* hotel in that list so Cardiff is out. And if the capital is out then I guess the rest of Wales is out. Oh well. We've hosted a Rugby World Cup final, Rugby League finals, FA Cup Finals, Heineken Cup finals, but the Pro12 final might be a step too far...

I'd say the chances of Cardiff being ruled out due to lack of accommodation are between zero and nil.

Notch wrote:I'd say the chances of Cardiff being ruled out due to lack of accommodation are between zero and nil.

Notch, I'm only going on what was quoted on the previous thread about the location of the final. Admittedly I'm therefore going on another posters words, but it seemed to be accepted on that thread that the criteria was as stated above. I'll do some more digging to find out. Accommodation volume is not a problem in Cardiff, but the 5* might be. I'll check.

The IRFU members like gold plated toilet flushing handles. They have rights. The 5 stars are for them and their envelopes. A lot of smooching and glad-handing to be done at a Final Trade Fair. The following year's winner has got to be chosen with a few nods, winks and champagne corks ....

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Just a thought, and trying to fling the muck elsewhere too. Don't the Scottish also have to take some blame? How many of their 6Ns squad play outside of the Pro12 (wiki says 9), and after the summer there will be even more playing elsewhere. The Italians only had 11 players playing outside of the Pro12. And the Welsh had 11 (even though some of those were are not capped yet).

Scotland have only two teams. If we only selected from them we would have an even smaller pool. also players benefit from exposure in other leagues - Take Laidlaw for one.

I don't think Scotland have any issues over this - our best players by and large play for the two scottish teams - its just that they do not get the media attention. One international this year 14 of the 15 starters were from Glasgow IIRC. also we have players wgo are not Scotland qualified who would light up any team - Matowalo for example or DTH van der Merwe

Matowalo also clearly shows the difference in attitude. he was released by Glasgow to play in a fiji game outside of the international window unlike many of his compatriots who play in England and France many of who sat on the bench or even did not make the matchday squad for their clubs but still were not released - and also he was allowed to play in the melrose sevens rather than for Glasgow. This shows the attitude of the SRU towards the wider game. This for me is a key thing - looking after the wider game

So actually I refute this argument its just bogus.

The Great Aukster wrote:A B&I league isn't going to happen as pointed out before. However lumping the Welsh regions in with the AP sounds like a reasonable idea - along the same lines as the cricket. The AP would only need a 33% increase in sponsorship to break even rather than 100% for a B&I league - so surely that's doable.

They would rekindle old rivalries and be able to keep all their players at home. The benefactors would fit in nicely at the PRL soirees and they would have better referees to ensure they would get fairly treated on-field too.

Travelling costs would be greatly reduced for the working man and there would be no ridiculous Sunday fixtures. What's holding them back?

This is never going to happen - 'cos it would mean some AP teams falling out of the top flight. It was a carrot dangled at the welsh teams and they were gullible enough to take it.

Its very noticable how its only the welsh teams who carp on about the pro 12 being rubbish - the rest of us enjoy a good competative league with a high standard of rugby.

TJ wrote:Its very noticable how its only the welsh teams who carp on about the pro 12 being rubbish - the rest of us enjoy a good competative league with a high standard of rugby.

Do the Welsh teams carp on about it or SOME Welsh fans. I enjoy the league as do many others on here and with the changes made I think it will grow.

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:I'd say the chances of Cardiff being ruled out due to lack of accommodation are between zero and nil.

Notch, I'm only going on what was quoted on the previous thread about the location of the final. Admittedly I'm therefore going on another posters words, but it seemed to be accepted on that thread that the criteria was as stated above. I'll do some more digging to find out. Accommodation volume is not a problem in Cardiff, but the 5* might be. I'll check.

The BBC link in the OP of the aforementioned thread says a minimum capacity of 18,000 was required. So the Dragons, Scarlets and Blues are excluded and I'm guessing Glasgow too (if, as it looks like, it needs to be at club ground)? Cant find the 5* thing in the thread but remember it vividly! Will search some more.

Griff wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:I'd say the chances of Cardiff being ruled out due to lack of accommodation are between zero and nil.

Notch, I'm only going on what was quoted on the previous thread about the location of the final. Admittedly I'm therefore going on another posters words, but it seemed to be accepted on that thread that the criteria was as stated above. I'll do some more digging to find out. Accommodation volume is not a problem in Cardiff, but the 5* might be. I'll check.

The BBC link in the OP of the aforementioned thread says a minimum capacity of 18,000 was required. So the Dragons, Scarlets and Blues are excluded and I'm guessing Glasgow too (if, as it looks like, it needs to be at club ground)? Cant find the 5* thing in the thread but remember it vividly! Will search some more.

Griff,

Whats the capacity of PYS thought it was 20K?

TJ wrote:Its very noticable how its only the welsh teams who carp on about the pro 12 being rubbish - the rest of us enjoy a good competative league with a high standard of rugby.

Chunky Norwich is the only one who carps on about it being rubbish. If you think that is representative of 'the Welsh teams' then I think you need to go back to school.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:I'd say the chances of Cardiff being ruled out due to lack of accommodation are between zero and nil.

Notch, I'm only going on what was quoted on the previous thread about the location of the final. Admittedly I'm therefore going on another posters words, but it seemed to be accepted on that thread that the criteria was as stated above. I'll do some more digging to find out. Accommodation volume is not a problem in Cardiff, but the 5* might be. I'll check.

The BBC link in the OP of the aforementioned thread says a minimum capacity of 18,000 was required. So the Dragons, Scarlets and Blues are excluded and I'm guessing Glasgow too (if, as it looks like, it needs to be at club ground)? Cant find the 5* thing in the thread but remember it vividly! Will search some more.

Griff,

Whats the capacity of PYS thought it was 20K?

Glasgows bid was to host the game in Kilmarnock, at Rugby Park. That was their undoing I think. Belfast is certainly no Berlin or Barcelona, but anything's better than a trip to Kilmarnock.

I know exactly how much it sucks to miss out on a Final due to not having the right facilities because it happened to Ulster in 2013. We were investing in our stadium for exactly this purpose. The culmination of years of hard work, to make us an option for hosting big games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:I'd say the chances of Cardiff being ruled out due to lack of accommodation are between zero and nil.

Notch, I'm only going on what was quoted on the previous thread about the location of the final. Admittedly I'm therefore going on another posters words, but it seemed to be accepted on that thread that the criteria was as stated above. I'll do some more digging to find out. Accommodation volume is not a problem in Cardiff, but the 5* might be. I'll check.

The BBC link in the OP of the aforementioned thread says a minimum capacity of 18,000 was required. So the Dragons, Scarlets and Blues are excluded and I'm guessing Glasgow too (if, as it looks like, it needs to be at club ground)? Cant find the 5* thing in the thread but remember it vividly! Will search some more.

Griff,

Whats the capacity of PYS thought it was 20K?

Nah, 15k according to Wiki. Although I do wonder how these criteria are agreed. Where do you draw the line? Why 18k? Why not 15k? Why not 22k? What's the formula?!

Notch wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:I'd say the chances of Cardiff being ruled out due to lack of accommodation are between zero and nil.

Notch, I'm only going on what was quoted on the previous thread about the location of the final. Admittedly I'm therefore going on another posters words, but it seemed to be accepted on that thread that the criteria was as stated above. I'll do some more digging to find out. Accommodation volume is not a problem in Cardiff, but the 5* might be. I'll check.

The BBC link in the OP of the aforementioned thread says a minimum capacity of 18,000 was required. So the Dragons, Scarlets and Blues are excluded and I'm guessing Glasgow too (if, as it looks like, it needs to be at club ground)? Cant find the 5* thing in the thread but remember it vividly! Will search some more.

Griff,

Whats the capacity of PYS thought it was 20K?

Glasgows bid was to host the game in Kilmarnock, at Rugby Park. That was their undoing I think. Belfast is certainly no Berlin or Barcelona, but anything's better than a trip to Kilmarnock.

I know exactly how much it sucks to miss out on a Final due to not having the right facilities because it happened to Ulster in 2013. We were investing in our stadium for exactly this purpose. The culmination of years of hard work, to make us an option for hosting big games.

Notch, as I said earlier I'm chuffed for Ulster. My mum's from Belfast so I have a soft spot for everything Ulster, including the rugby team (I own a few shirts actually!). And kudos for redeveloping the stadium and getting the gig. Truly. I just like the notion of finals moving around the participating nations as in the European cup. Yes, it makes sense to go for somewhere that could get 18k fans guaranteed this year at short notice (although 'guaranteed' is not guaranteed, if you know what I mean) so no probs with that. But I'd hate really stringent criteria to preclude others going forward.

So do I Griff

I hope for all our sakes the other three nations can make an equally good go of it

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Its very noticable how its only the welsh teams who carp on about the pro 12 being rubbish - the rest of us enjoy a good competative league with a high standard of rugby.

Chunky Norwich is the only one who carps on about it being rubbish. If you think that is representative of 'the Welsh teams' then I think you need to go back to school.

No problem - I stand corrected - I thought the saint did as well but as above - I don't see the saints posts anymore.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

TJ wrote:Its very noticable how its only the welsh teams who carp on about the pro 12 being rubbish - the rest of us enjoy a good competative league with a high standard of rugby.

Do the Welsh teams carp on about it or SOME Welsh fans. I enjoy the league as do many others on here and with the changes made I think it will grow.

As above - apologies - sloppy wording. Its been a long day and I am tired. I accept the correction.

TJ:

My last words on this. Things coming out of the Welsh camp are easily considered poor but these were all mainly done before the signing of the sponsorship deals. Peter Thomas was right in his comments (ill at times as perceived by many but right they were).

I do also believe that playing the stars in the Pro-12 would draw more attention but European success will always be the benchmark to securing and benefitting from sponsorship.

I like the way it is going and will support it.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:My last words on this. Things coming out of the Welsh camp are easily considered poor but these were all mainly done before the signing of the sponsorship deals. Peter Thomas was right in his comments (ill at times as perceived by many but right they were).

I do also believe that playing the stars in the Pro-12 would draw more attention but European success will always be the benchmark to securing and benefitting from sponsorship.

I like the way it is going and will support it.

Having the best players play most of the time would be ideal but a serious restructuring of the season would be needed. It is simply impossible for that to happen at the minute.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:My last words on this. Things coming out of the Welsh camp are easily considered poor but these were all mainly done before the signing of the sponsorship deals. Peter Thomas was right in his comments (ill at times as perceived by many but right they were).

I do also believe that playing the stars in the Pro-12 would draw more attention but European success will always be the benchmark to securing and benefitting from sponsorship.

I like the way it is going and will support it.

Having the best players play most of the time would be ideal but a serious restructuring of the season would be needed. It is simply impossible for that to happen at the minute.

Agreed. Someone earlier harped on about Leinster fetching up at Ospreys the following season after winning the European and being disappointed that only 7,000 fans turned up to watch the European Champions at the Liberty. Except that in 2009, only three players from the Final team didn't play that were avilable in the subsequent Ospreys match. In 2011, both teams were missing players because they were away at RWC. And in 2012, the match was played the week before November Internationals when players would have been in International window. This one high-profile example demonstrates that it's simply impossible to have all the top players from any country playing week in, week out. Unrealistic and detrimental to the wider squad too.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

TJ wrote:Its very noticable how its only the welsh teams who carp on about the pro 12 being rubbish - the rest of us enjoy a good competative league with a high standard of rugby.

Do the Welsh teams carp on about it or SOME Welsh fans.  I enjoy the league as do many others on here and with the changes made I think it will grow.

Well said bedfordwelsh, it's very easy, especially on this forum, to get sucked in by the volume and intensity of a few posters saying it's rubbish. It can also get irritating when posters just seem to be put at polar opposites to each other (if I say something positive about the league I 100% pro, if I criticise it or look at how to improve then I must be 100% against it kind of thing).

See my apology above

Pot Hale wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:My last words on this. Things coming out of the Welsh camp are easily considered poor but these were all mainly done before the signing of the sponsorship deals. Peter Thomas was right in his comments (ill at times as perceived by many but right they were).

I do also believe that playing the stars in the Pro-12 would draw more attention but European success will always be the benchmark to securing and benefitting from sponsorship.

I like the way it is going and will support it.

Having the best players play most of the time would be ideal but a serious restructuring of the season would be needed. It is simply impossible for that to happen at the minute.

Agreed.   Someone earlier harped on about Leinster fetching up at Ospreys the following season after winning the European and being disappointed that only 7,000 fans turned up to watch the European Champions at the Liberty.   Except that in 2009, only three players from the Final team didn't play that were avilable in the subsequent Ospreys match.   In 2011, both teams were missing players because they were away at RWC.  And in 2012, the match was played the week before November Internationals when players would have been in International window.   This one high-profile example demonstrates that it's simply impossible to have all the top players from any country playing week in, week out.  Unrealistic and detrimental to the wider squad too.  

It is a league competition as well which means it is a marathon not a sprint. It isn't as if other leagues don't have rotation of players etc. Bath rested more front line players than Leinster did the week before their European QF if I'm not mistaken (and i'm open to correction there). And personally, I like to see the youngster stepping up and standing out a fixture, making you ask the person next to you "who is that kid that's tearing it up?" and then hopefully seeing that player develop both in the league and maybe onto Test level. Seeing Navidi, watching Bennett, the spark that was benvenuti(spelling is probably way off).

TJ wrote:See my apology above

Hey TJ, didn't mean that to be a shot at you, just wanted to compliment bedfords post, that's all.

Pot Hale wrote:What year was this, LD?

Sorry for the late reply PH, it was when you were last Euro champs. I have seen the reason you gave above, and it is a valid reason, but the players were not there. Perhaps not playing games during the internationals is a route we can take for improving our league.

Anyway, this is starting to drag a bit now, I think we should all agree, that ALL the unions/Countries have been guilty of neglecting OUR league, and if anybody wants to suggest how we could improve, that would be another great thread to start for a nice, grown up, mature debate, without sarcasm.

TJ wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Just a thought, and trying to fling the muck elsewhere too.  Don't the Scottish also have to take some blame?  How many of their 6Ns squad play outside of the Pro12 (wiki says 9), and after the summer there will be even more playing elsewhere.  The Italians only had 11 players playing outside of the Pro12.   And the Welsh had 11 (even though some of those were are not capped yet).

Scotland have only two teams.  If we only selected from them we would have an even smaller pool.  also players benefit from exposure in other leagues - Take Laidlaw for one.  

I don't think Scotland have any issues over this - our best players by and large play for the two scottish teams - its just that they do not get the media attention.  One international this year 14 of the 15 starters were from Glasgow IIRC.  also we have players wgo are not Scotland qualified who would light up any team - Matowalo for example or DTH van der Merwe

Matowalo also clearly shows the difference in attitude.  he was released by Glasgow to play in a fiji game outside of the international window unlike many of his compatriots who play in England and France many of who sat on the bench or even did not make the  matchday squad for their clubs but still were not released - and also he was allowed to play in the melrose sevens rather than for Glasgow.  This shows the attitude of the SRU towards the wider game.  This for me is a key thing - looking after the wider game

So actually I refute this argument its just bogus.

I can't see how the fact that 9 of the Scottish squad play outside of the Pro12 can be bogus. It is a fact.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

TJ wrote:Its very noticable how its only the welsh teams who carp on about the pro 12 being rubbish - the rest of us enjoy a good competative league with a high standard of rugby.

Do the Welsh teams carp on about it or SOME Welsh fans.  I enjoy the league as do many others on here and with the changes made I think it will grow.

Well said bedfordwelsh, it's very easy, especially on this forum, to get sucked in by the volume and intensity of a few posters saying it's rubbish. It can also get irritating when posters just seem to be put at polar opposites to each other (if I say something positive about the league I 100% pro, if I criticise it or look at how to improve then I must be 100% against it kind of thing).

I am in the boat that it is a work in progress and theoretically could be something really good. However I am also of the opinion that if there is going to be a witch hunt for who is to blame for it not being a success I will stand up and defend our corner.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I am in the boat that it is a work in progress and theoretically could be something really good. However I am also of the opinion that if there is going to be a witch hunt for who is to blame for it not being a success I will stand up and defend our corner.

You will not be alone SS, as you have witnessed with my debating all through this thread.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TJ wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Just a thought, and trying to fling the muck elsewhere too.  Don't the Scottish also have to take some blame?  How many of their 6Ns squad play outside of the Pro12 (wiki says 9), and after the summer there will be even more playing elsewhere.  The Italians only had 11 players playing outside of the Pro12.   And the Welsh had 11 (even though some of those were are not capped yet).

Scotland have only two teams.  If we only selected from them we would have an even smaller pool.  also players benefit from exposure in other leagues - Take Laidlaw for one.  

I don't think Scotland have any issues over this - our best players by and large play for the two scottish teams - its just that they do not get the media attention.  One international this year 14 of the 15 starters were from Glasgow IIRC.  also we have players wgo are not Scotland qualified who would light up any team - Matowalo for example or DTH van der Merwe

Matowalo also clearly shows the difference in attitude.  he was released by Glasgow to play in a fiji game outside of the international window unlike many of his compatriots who play in England and France many of who sat on the bench or even did not make the  matchday squad for their clubs but still were not released - and also he was allowed to play in the melrose sevens rather than for Glasgow.  This shows the attitude of the SRU towards the wider game.  This for me is a key thing - looking after the wider game

So actually I refute this argument its just bogus.

I can't see how the fact that 9 of the Scottish squad play outside of the Pro12 can be bogus. It is a fact.

But the inference this is bad for the pro 12 is the bogus bit. Plus its essential for Scottish rugby.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

TJ wrote:See my apology above

Hey TJ, didn't mean that to be a shot at you, just wanted to compliment bedfords post, that's all.

No worries

TJ wrote:But the inference this is bad for the pro 12 is the bogus bit. Plus its essential for Scottish rugby.

It is not bogus TJ, and please do not take this as an attack, because the Scottish Union are only looking after themselves there is nothing wrong with this, but by not having the best Scottish/Welsh/Irish/Italian players on show in our league is bad for it. Scotland in my opinion need to sort themselves out, two pro teams for a top tear nation is not on, you need at least three, perhaps even four pro teams.