Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Yep lots,but with the caveat that I don't think there's any realistic shot of it happening, I would be willing to make a minimal investment of time and money to help it along but it would be very minimal.

Good man. I wish others felt the same.

Lord D - I don't know - I am not going to look it up - I think I was 100% crystal clear in saying they were just names that occurred to me. I was going by the big names. If you want a proper comparison do one - I did all (three seconds) of donkey work to find out if Marshall Kilgore was always the video ref at Ravenhill.

Two thoughts though.

One - have the WRU screwed the Pro12 by letting so many of their big name players play elsewhere? I know that's starting to change, and they're bringing them back, but have they contributed considerably to this league being viewed as a poor cousin to the AP and Top 14? You might see little of Conor Murray in the Pro12 - you are guaranteed to see none of George North.

Also, does bringing in big name marquee SH talent not raise the interest in the league? Do you think having Rocky Elsom, Jerry Collins et al playing in the league made it of more interest to sponsors etc? Has that been discussed?

Don, I am not denying what the Welsh/WRU have done, I have admitted it and condemned it, what I cannot sit with though is people from other countries thinking they are faultless in all this, they/you are not.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
I reworked that sentence.  I meant less of the MORE money to share out.  More money for Regions alone.  Why do I never see you chatting to the English boys about ideas like that?

If they're not in the thread I can't chat to them. They're probably so p1ss bored of the rantings about the tiresome Prolapse12 they stay well away whenever it's mentioned.

You know where they are.  They're around abouts.  One thread entry is as easy as another.  The trick is you never mention Pro12...only AngloWelsh League.

But I want a British and Irish League.

You can only control what you have.  You're Welsh.  The truth is that you need the Irish to make the project viable.  Viable and controlling for the PRL/RFU and their partners BT.  

No.  

We're too small to control or bully Welsh rugby (proof of the pudding is all the unrest!! )  That's why the Pro12 should work if the Welsh finally buy into it.  No Nation is big enough to bully the other one out of existence.
English rugby is big enough and has influence enough to control a League for its benefits and suck all life out of the excess................ and then open up the trap-door to let the excess drop into their dungeon of Tier Two or Three, as they seal the Top into a Premiership of perhaps 10 English sides, one Irish and one Welsh or Scottish.

No.  You want to be a turkey that votes for Christmas, that's your prerogative.  Not me.

Can't say fairer than that, LD.

It owudl be impossible, but wouldn't it be great if every team in the league had, say, two fantastic, attention-grabbing names playing for them.

Don Alfonso wrote:Lord D - I don't know - I am not going to look it up - I think I was 100% crystal clear in saying they were just names that occurred to me. I was going by the big names. If you want a proper comparison do one - I did all (three seconds) of donkey work to find out if Marshall Kilgore was always the video ref at Ravenhill.

Two thoughts though.

One - have the WRU screwed the Pro12 by letting so many of their big name players play elsewhere? I know that's starting to change, and they're bringing them back, but have they contributed considerably to this league being viewed as a poor cousin to the AP and Top 14? You might see little of Conor Murray in the Pro12 - you are guaranteed to see none of George North.

Also, does bringing in big name marquee SH talent not raise the interest in the league? Do you think having Rocky Elsom, Jerry Collins et al playing in the league made it of more interest to sponsors etc? Has that been discussed?

Just a thought, and trying to fling the muck elsewhere too. Don't the Scottish also have to take some blame? How many of their 6Ns squad play outside of the Pro12 (wiki says 9), and after the summer there will be even more playing elsewhere. The Italians only had 11 players playing outside of the Pro12. And the Welsh had 11 (even though some of those were are not capped yet).

SecretFly wrote:That's why the Pro12 should work if the Welsh finally buy into it

Again more hypocrisy, when the IRFU buy into it, then so will we.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Lord D - I don't know - I am not going to look it up - I think I was 100% crystal clear in saying they were just names that occurred to me. I was going by the big names. If you want a proper comparison do one - I did all (three seconds) of donkey work to find out if Marshall Kilgore was always the video ref at Ravenhill.

Two thoughts though.

One - have the WRU screwed the Pro12 by letting so many of their big name players play elsewhere? I know that's starting to change, and they're bringing them back, but have they contributed considerably to this league being viewed as a poor cousin to the AP and Top 14? You might see little of Conor Murray in the Pro12 - you are guaranteed to see none of George North.

Also, does bringing in big name marquee SH talent not raise the interest in the league? Do you think having Rocky Elsom, Jerry Collins et al playing in the league made it of more interest to sponsors etc? Has that been discussed?

Just a thought, and trying to fling the muck elsewhere too.  Don't the Scottish also have to take some blame?  How many of their 6Ns squad play outside of the Pro12 (wiki says 9), and after the summer there will be even more playing elsewhere.  The Italians only had 11 players playing outside of the Pro12.   And the Welsh had 11 (even though some of those were are not capped yet).

Yes. Bloody Scots. Bloody Italians.

Well, I am of the opinion, that if every side in the league played their best players against each other week in week out, then not only would it raise the profile of our league, it would attract more money, more fans, and command a lot more respect off our rivals.

Don Alfonso wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Lord D - I don't know - I am not going to look it up - I think I was 100% crystal clear in saying they were just names that occurred to me. I was going by the big names. If you want a proper comparison do one - I did all (three seconds) of donkey work to find out if Marshall Kilgore was always the video ref at Ravenhill.

Two thoughts though.

One - have the WRU screwed the Pro12 by letting so many of their big name players play elsewhere? I know that's starting to change, and they're bringing them back, but have they contributed considerably to this league being viewed as a poor cousin to the AP and Top 14? You might see little of Conor Murray in the Pro12 - you are guaranteed to see none of George North.

Also, does bringing in big name marquee SH talent not raise the interest in the league? Do you think having Rocky Elsom, Jerry Collins et al playing in the league made it of more interest to sponsors etc? Has that been discussed?

Just a thought, and trying to fling the muck elsewhere too.  Don't the Scottish also have to take some blame?  How many of their 6Ns squad play outside of the Pro12 (wiki says 9), and after the summer there will be even more playing elsewhere.  The Italians only had 11 players playing outside of the Pro12.   And the Welsh had 11 (even though some of those were are not capped yet).

Yes. Bloody Scots. Bloody Italians.

My thoughts exactly!

The Scottish (for arguments sake) sided with the Irish in being anti-RCC.

And the Italians (well Treviso for sure) lead the way for the Regions, but actually undermining the league by pulling out of it when sponsors were being searched for.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The Scottish (for arguments sake) sided with the Irish in being anti-RCC.

And the Italians (well Treviso for sure) lead the way for the Regions, but actually undermining the league by pulling out of it when sponsors were being searched for.

Yes SS, like I have been saying from the start, we are all guilty, not just the Welsh.

In all seriousness, it's a good point. If every nation had it's star players on it's Pro12 teams, we'd be a much more attracive proposition. North and Roberts must be two of the biggest names in NH Rugby. Same for Parisse.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:That's why the Pro12 should work if the Welsh finally buy into it

Again more hypocrisy, when the IRFU buy into it, then so will we.

You have a strange way with the word hypocrisy, Lord.  

So we'll sit on a log together and whittle a few sticks into the shapes of turkeys, and the IRFU will wait for the Welsh to buy into Pro12 first and the WRU will in turn wait for the IRFU to buy into it first?

That's constructive thinking.

I know...................... I think the problem might be solved by making a Money-Making machine in some not used Factory.  That way, all parties could sit it out and not commit and sulk and whine as the money poured in from the Money-Making machine....

Whatd'ya All Think??????????????????????

Agreement????

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The Scottish (for arguments sake) sided with the Irish in being anti-RCC.

And the Italians (well Treviso for sure) lead the way for the Regions, but actually undermining the league by pulling out of it when sponsors were being searched for.

Yes SS, like I have been saying from the start, we are all guilty, not just the Welsh.

The thing is we don't have any Italians on here to argue for the Italians (unless the Don wants to step up for them), so they don't get into boobie for tat arguments. And the Scottish posters on here, are generally either to busy jovially abusing each other or they are doing their Neil Patterson impression (officially being Scottish, but acting as thought heir Irish ). So that just leave us to have a Welsh/Irish bicker.

Don Alfonso wrote:In all seriousness, it's a good point. If every nation had it's star players on it's Pro12 teams, we'd be a much more attracive proposition. North and Roberts must be two of the biggest names in NH Rugby. Same for Parisse.

And those players, perhaps on central contracts of some nature with their Unions, would be allowed break their necks in Pro12 each and every week at the expense of them showing up for International duty or holding off for European pools?

I go back to Warburton.  For sure a Welsh star?  One of their biggest.  BIG match player with oodles of physicality and stamina, is none too slow and Breakdown work legendary................................. he played a week or so ago and I never seen him.  Very low key performance.  Trotted through without working up a sweat.

Just because Stars show doesn't mean they're going to play like stars.  The Pro12 has proven it over and over.  Has the Pro12 really become an X-Factor gig, that fans want to see LIVE the people they see on the Big Screen even though they know they probably can't or won't sing perfect on the day.  

Is Pro12 not about rugby being played that excites?

There are a number of quirky things getting said around this topic that makes one wonder has rugby really turned into just another Reality Show where money is attracted to simply 'Celebs' doing things like going to the toilet or chatting about why they've fallen out with Keith Chegwin??

Is it all just about seeing Stars in real life and Selfies with them???

ScarletSpiderman wrote:or they are doing their Neil Patterson impression (officially being Scottish, but acting as thought heir Irish ).  

like letting Lord's Ospreys win??? Yes..................

Don Alfonso wrote:Lord D - I don't know - I am not going to look it up - I think I was 100% crystal clear in saying they were just names that occurred to me. I was going by the big names. If you want a proper comparison do one - I did all (three seconds) of donkey work to find out if Marshall Kilgore was always the video ref at Ravenhill.

Two thoughts though.

One - have the WRU screwed the Pro12 by letting so many of their big name players play elsewhere? I know that's starting to change, and they're bringing them back, but have they contributed considerably to this league being viewed as a poor cousin to the AP and Top 14? You might see little of Conor Murray in the Pro12 - you are guaranteed to see none of George North.

Also, does bringing in big name marquee SH talent not raise the interest in the league? Do you think having Rocky Elsom, Jerry Collins et al playing in the league made it of more interest to sponsors etc? Has that been discussed?

Don, don't forget that wales is not Ireland. The clubs are independent businesses here (sort of). The clubs let the players go, not the wru. With the new DCs coming in the wru has an influence going forward, but they didnt previously (at least not in terms of contracts). Can't blame the wru for this one.

Don Alfonso wrote:In all seriousness, it's a good point. If every nation had it's star players on it's Pro12 teams, we'd be a much more attracive proposition. North and Roberts must be two of the biggest names in NH Rugby. Same for Parisse.

Thank you, and this is all I am saying, big names attract more fans, better sponsors, more money. I remember a few years back when Leinster were the European champs, and they came to Swansea to play Ospreys, there was a paltry crowd of about 7000 at the game, everybody was saying what a poor show it was, that the European champions were in town and hardly anybody turned up to watch Ospreys play them, the thing is, they were only European champions in name, all the players that won that cup were not in Swansea, they were at home with their feet up, if the players who actually won the cup were there I bet there would have been more fans there. The European cup proves this, when better players are out, more fans turn up to watch.

Griff wrote:

Don, don't forget that wales is not Ireland. The clubs are independent businesses here (sort of). The clubs let the players go, not the wru. With the new DCs coming in the wru has an influence going forward, but they didnt previously (at least not in terms of contracts). Can't blame the wru for this one.

Er, the WRU wanted to rollover an agreement that saw the biggest exodus of Welsh rugby players since the days of rugby league poaching. Only thanks to the benefactors of the regions did that not come about and a new deal which included DCs happen.

I know Griff - I was being a bit stirr-y to be honest.

Could the WRU not refuse to pick foreign-based players though, like Lancaster? If all uniosn agreed to do that, it might be the single most important improvement to the league as a whole.

Don Alfonso wrote:Could the WRU not refuse to pick foreign-based players though, like Lancaster? If all uniosn agreed to do that, it might be the single most important improvement to the league as a whole.

As much as I would like to see that happen, we do not have enough strength in depth to enforce it, YET. I bet as soon as the DC are sorted any player leaving Wales will find themselves in the international wilderness.

LordDowlais wrote:
As much as I would like to see that happen, we do not have enough strength in depth to enforce it, YET. .

Or money.

What gives a player the value he seeks?

An agent who over-prices him?

International reputation?

Club reputation?

Are some of these players simply over-priced anyway when considering the market they are being offered to?

That is to say..... should a club player get stacks of money from a club for turning it on at International level and turning it back off at club level?

The club is landed with a price tag on a player who sometimes might only perform to the standards of the price tag at International!

It's a conundrum for sure.  What is the right price for some of these players and maybe there should be some way for the payers to ask the players to prove their International class price tag at Club level before paying all their International reputation fee .....

I hope all that guff makes sense

The only thing that makes sense to me is, that people want to see the internationals playing as often as possible, if they are not there, then people will not go and watch.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The Scottish (for arguments sake) sided with the Irish in being anti-RCC.

And the Italians (well Treviso for sure) lead the way for the Regions, but actually undermining the league by pulling out of it when sponsors were being searched for.

Yes SS, like I have been saying from the start, we are all guilty, not just the Welsh.

The thing is we don't have any Italians on here to argue for the Italians (unless the Don wants to step up for them), so they don't get into boobie for tat arguments.  And the Scottish posters on here, are generally either to busy jovially abusing each other or they are doing their Neil Patterson impression (officially being Scottish, but acting as thought heir Irish ).  So that just leave us to have a Welsh/Irish bicker.

Leave us out of this. We are enjoying it

Don Alfonso wrote:Just a wee look at a random selection of Irish and Welsh players and their appearances in Pro12 games. Just as they occurred to me and not as an equivalence. Not in any order. Not taking into account injuries.

Just to spark some sober, reflective discussion, you understand. You can all draw your own conlusions about any discrepancy.

Sam Warburton 9
Jamie Heaslip 8+1
Taulupe Faletau 8 + 2
Liam Williams 9
Tommy Bowe 8
Peter O’Mahony 5+1
Rory Best 9 +1
AW Jones 9+2
Rhys Webb 9+2
Conor Murray 7
Devin Toner 8+1
Samson Lee 5+1
Robbie Henshaw 9
Simon Zebo 10
Justin Tipuric 11
Dan Biggar 11+1
Gethin Jenkins 6+1
Sean O’Brien 1


And also, as a bit of a thought experiment:

International, big-name players who played zero minutes in the Pro12 and therefore added precisely nothing to its attractiveness to either audiences or sponsors:

Irish
Jonathon Sexton

Welsh
George North, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Jonathan Davies, Mike Phillips, Richard Hibbard, Luke Charteris


P.S.
This thread is full-on mental.

It is, but it's encouraging to see at least someone has some degree of sense!

LordDowlais wrote:The only thing that makes sense to me is, that people want to see the internationals playing as often as possible, if they are not there, then people will not go and watch.

I would not necessarily agree with that. People turn up to watch the best players play, sometimes there are internationals who really are not as big a draw as other non-international players. I'm thinking more people would turn up to watch Regan playing at PYS than would to watch Adam Warren for instance.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The only thing that makes sense to me is, that people want to see the internationals playing as often as possible, if they are not there, then people will not go and watch.

I would not necessarily agree with that.  People turn up to watch the best players play, sometimes there are internationals who really are not as big a draw as other non-international players.  I'm thinking more people would turn up to watch Regan playing at PYS than would to watch Adam Warren for instance.

Would more people turn out to watch John Davies, George North, Liam Williams, Ken Owens ect, rather than who they would be replaced with at the regions ? Also, sorry if I was not clear, but I know Adam Warren has a Welsh cap, but I am talking about regular internationals. Webb, Biggar, AWJ, Faletau, Lydiate, Tuperic, Scott Williams, Liam Davies ect. playing against Cain Healy, Ian Madigan, Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell ect. Players who are household names.

Don Alfonso wrote:I know Griff - I was being a bit stirr-y to be honest.

Could the WRU not refuse to pick foreign-based players though, like Lancaster? If all uniosn agreed to do that, it might be the single most important improvement to the league as a whole.

They could, and that would work well in a union controlled rugby nation like Ireland or NZ. But we've got a sort of half way house between the English/French model and theIreland/NZ one. So Gats could refuse to pick foreign based players, but the wru doesnt hasn't previously had a say in who the 4 businesses sign up for their teams so those players in exodus may just stay in exodus. Just as an example, Peter Thomas a few years back at the Blues was so annoyed at having to pay Jamie Robert' full wages when he only played for the Blues once or twice in a season that he said that it made no sense the Welsh regions having any welsh internationals playing for them! Ouch! He said something along the lines of not having any internationals  on the books. His tune seems to have changed a bit lately wih the intro of Dual Contracts, but I do sympathise with the clubs on this to some extent. This whole half way house, quasi-provincial, independent clubs vs Union involved model is the root cause of all these problems we see here! Would the foreign rule stop them leaving in the first place? Quite possibly. But previously, as in the example above, having internationals on the books from a club perspective was uneconomical. The DCs will go some way (a long way actually) to addressing that.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The only thing that makes sense to me is, that people want to see the internationals playing as often as possible, if they are not there, then people will not go and watch.

I would not necessarily agree with that.  People turn up to watch the best players play, sometimes there are internationals who really are not as big a draw as other non-international players.  I'm thinking more people would turn up to watch Regan playing at PYS than would to watch Adam Warren for instance.

Agreed. Dragons crowds have been roughly similar in the years we had no internationals playing to now when we have 1 or 2 playing

Griff, again I find myself agreeing with you, I sense a wind of change here in Wales, with Roger Lewis leaving, players returning, I can see a very bright future for Welsh rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:The only thing that makes sense to me is, that people want to see the internationals playing as often as possible, if they are not there, then people will not go and watch.

Then rugby is dead.  

I want to see my Internationals Performing as much as possible.  They don't have to play often, but I expect them to perform when they do.

I absolutely loved the Leinster's Schmidt years - not because Leinster were winning a few things (though that was obviously nice) - but because of the rugby he was getting the side to play................. and that didn't need the Internationals to play it.  
I actually looked forward to times when the Big nternationals weren't playing because then we could see what the future hopes looked like - and it genuinely was an exciting time because you were often looking at rookies. But because Schmidt treated them with respect and actually coached them to play at their best, the games were often electrifying - again not because of what was actually getting played but because of being excited at seeing so much hope in the un-knowns playing it.  

It really gets you into looking at your Team as a continuing evolving entity, and any fan that groans when their younger players show up is not much of a fan in my eyes.  That's the real time to hope and be excited that even behind the old Pros there is something really exciting coming behind.
That to me is rugby.  The continuation of hope.  Not one offs or vintage crop.... continuation and hoping for more to come and better players to emerge.

SecretFly wrote:Then rugby is dead

For you it might be. But not everybody wants what you want.

Also, it is not about not playing youngsters, it's about not playing star players on mass. The Irish provinces over the years have always kept their star Irish players away from the league outside of Ireland, this has added to the negative affect on our league, along with everything else that has been mentioned on the subject.

Yeah we have. And so f'ing what? Ideally players would be able to play in every game, but even if the provinces want to play them in every game they can't because of the input of the IRFU. Everybody acknowledges it would be easier to sell the league if internationals could play in every game, the problem is that's pie in the sky fantasy land. There's no solution to it. It's the way things are and we are neither inclined to change it or capable of doing anything about it.

No-one is denying that this happens. It's just very much your problem, not ours. We can get big crowds in to watch Welsh teams who never, ever play their best homegrown stars on account of them having moved to France. If you can't sell tickets to watch Leinster or Munster without a few internationals, it's down to a lack of support for your regions and a lack of interest in your fan base.

You'd be taken more seriously if you didn't lay your problems at our feet.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Then rugby is dead

For you it might be. But not everybody wants what you want.

There you go.  We're all so different even though we presume we love the same sport.  

It's natural that we'll hardly ever agree on much because our priorities are always different.  Internationals showing up just to be seen and photographed or whatever even though they cruise through certain games whilst saving themselves for bigger days.  Yeah, that's dead rugby to me.  Want no part of that image conscious show.

But if they were Forced to play when they showed up............. now that's the work for the sides that criticise. Let the competition be a competition.

Reading this, it's as if the Irish provinces are doing this to spite Welsh fans instead of being bound to a strict limit of minutes they can play each player every season being stipulated in their contracts

If you have players you can only play in about 50% of games, you give them more home games than away games because you are running a business and a large part of that business is selling tickets for your home games. Is that so difficult to understand? What would you say if the regions only started playing dual contracted players in away games?

We are all responsible for promoting the league. But we're only responsible for selling tickets to games in Ireland. We can't be made responsible for the failure of the regions to sell tickets in Wales.

Christ almighty.

Notch wrote:You'd be taken more seriously if you didn't lay your problems at our feet.

I think it is you lot who laying the problems at OUR feet. God, why dont some of you Irish on here just get down off your high horse to just take a look at how you behave on times, this debate is about selling OUR league, and we are being told that we cannot get much for it because of how the WELSH behave. When I point out that NONE of us are perfect, I get nonsense quotes like this off you Notch.

Please stop being so arrogant and except that the Irish are not faultless in the leagues failings to get the best we can for our product.

I bet you are part of the Irish crowd who believe that none of your supporters boo kickers, and all your players respect the refs, and none of your players cheat or give others cheap shots.

You would be taken more seriously if you just admitted your failings when it comes to OUR league instead of just telling us ours.

If you fight fire with fire, I suppose the only way to fight horsesh!t is with horsesh!t.

When I will learn this lesson and realise it is pointless even engaging with the likes of you I don't know.

Notch wrote:We are all responsible for promoting the league. But we're only responsible for selling tickets to games in Ireland. We can't be made responsible for the failure of the regions to sell tickets in Wales.

Again, WTF has selling tickets in Wales got to do with promoting OUR league ? We know what our problems are thank you, god knows we've been told it enough by the likes of you. We are trying to sort ourselves out, but by doing this we are only looking after ourselves, I make no excuse for it, it's about time that you started admitting a few things, I have said all through this debate that the Irish/IRFU/Branches or what ever else are doing nothing wrong by resting their star players, BUT IT IS NOT HELPING OUR LEAGUE EITHER, and that is what this debate is about isn't it ?

Notch wrote:When I will learn this lesson and realise it is pointless even engaging with the likes of you I don't know.

Some of you Irish on here have real high opinions of yourself, that's for sure.

As I mentioned earlier no one Nation is at fault in the same as no one Nation is whiter than white each have their own agendas. If they could find a way to pull together then that would be great but when you have elements within one Nation that can't agree what chances are there of 4 Nations agreeing on a common goal.

I think we might actually be reaching a crux here.  Perhaps a central cultural point that throws up all the disagreements.

I do honestly think that Irish sides and Irish fans LOVE the idea of players creeping up from the bottom to the top within the same team.  We love to see our academy players come through and show what they have.  The good ones move into Pro12 for occasional outings, then they become more integrated, then before you know it they seem to have always been there - and then they start to become absentee - fecking International taking them! - another thing to secretly savour; you only have to look at the inter-tribal wars between the Provincial fans to know how proud they are of their own players and how much a token of that pride is refected in the arguments about which Provincial players should be in the Irish side by fecking right!!!!!  Zebo was wronged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All that stuff.  But that's the development.  We love it all... from academy, to Pro12, to Europe and International; and the new academy guys perhaps showing again to keep the cycle going.

With Wales?

Well, because of the oft explained more Privatisation aspect to the Regions, they seem to be more interested in generating product by offering a product that sells tickets.  Therefore, as Lord alluded to, top players of International recognition are assumed to be the players that will draw Welsh crowds.

It seems the story is they don't have much patience for young triers.  If the big boys aren't injured, they're the ones that should be playing because after all, it's a business and they are getting best money to push their Region along.  You can't be paying through the nose for players who are kept on sidelines.  
So it seems Welsh Regions need loads more money to finance the impatience of prospective fans.  Their prospective fans want big names playing and therefore they have to try to satisfy that potential market.  More money to buy back Welsh top players but also to buy in top players from elsewhere so that the fans will always be served a diet of top quality players.  And that becomes a self financing continuum of buying and selling top players to keep it a diet of always Best players on show.

That's the way I'm interpreting what Welsh posters are saying anyway.  But is that not the French way?  And is French rugby itself within that format not suffering because of it?  No time or patience for rookies - just buy in the players you need.  Use the credit card to fill a hole that an inexperienced player might fill slower but eventually bring more long term value to?

That's the pressures of falling in with the fans who demand it all - comfort, food, drink and famous stars - most weeks, all season long.

It's two different philosophies and the demands do seem to be different from fans in both Nations, and the obligations are different from the teams involved.

We're a multi-National League and it shows!

Maybe the final solution is realignment back within National borders?  Wales find a way to re-ignite internal Club competition in a self contained League.  We here try to find a similar way to do the same.  Nobody steps on nobody else's toes - distinct philosophies continue without outside interference...................... and we take 6 Places each in Europe!

bedfordwelsh wrote:As I mentioned earlier no one Nation is at fault in the same as no one Nation is whiter than white each have their own agendas.  If they could find a way to pull together then that would be great but when you have elements within one Nation that can't agree what chances are there of 4 Nations agreeing on a common goal.

Your comment should have come after mine. Didn't see you there before I posted. But damn similar conclusion. We're doomed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32314431

Just while we''re talking abot the draw-backs of your internationals playing elsewhere...

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:We are all responsible for promoting the league. But we're only responsible for selling tickets to games in Ireland. We can't be made responsible for the failure of the regions to sell tickets in Wales.

Again, WTF has selling tickets in Wales got to do with promoting OUR league ? We know what our problems are thank you, god knows we've been told it enough by the likes of you. We are trying to sort ourselves out, but by doing this we are only looking after ourselves, I make no excuse for it, it's about time that you started admitting a few things, I have said all through this debate that the Irish/IRFU/Branches or what ever else are doing nothing wrong by resting their star players, BUT IT IS NOT HELPING OUR LEAGUE EITHER, and that is what this debate is about isn't it ?

They are the same thing,you promote the league in order to sell tickets and by selling tickets and getting people in to watch games you are promoting it.This is fairly simple stuff.

Don Alfonso wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32314431

Just while we''re talking abot the draw-backs of your internationals playing elsewhere...

To be honest I think it's a bit of a non starter in terms of a story. The only player who it will really affect is Hibbard, most wouldn't have Priestland in the squad anyway though I am sure he agreed to sign for Bath after the WC so shouldn't be affected. James will be an Osprey player by then so won't be affected and North has a full release clause so won't be affected.

Even in Hibbards case after the recent 6 nations I would pick him as 3rd choice now.

"Leading French clubs can also take the approach of England's top teams.

That could cause difficulties for Jamie Roberts, Luke Charteris and Mike Phillips (all Racing Metro), plus Jonathan Davies (Clermont Auvergne) and Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon). "

You'd best hope it's a non-story.

LordDowlais wrote:The only thing that makes sense to me is, that people want to see the internationals playing as often as possible, if they are not there, then people will not go and watch.

Edit: sorry I misread your post.
I agree, without big names you can't have big crowds.

LD,

That's not strictly true us Dragons have not be loaded with Internationals yet our crowd numbers have been pretty steady.

bedfordwelsh wrote:LD,

That's not strictly true us Dragons have not be loaded with Internationals yet our crowd numbers have been pretty steady.

They have always been the same though, haven't they ? Imagine if you had Welsh internationals playing week in week out, I bet your attendances would go up. The thing is if you had Dai Jones from Tredegar who always goes down to Cardiff for the internationals but does not go to the regions, seeing the internationals at RP for half price, I bet you could entice the fair weather fans to RP. After all if he is willing to pay sixty quid to watch them in Cardiff, I bet he would pay twenty quid to see them kick ass in the league at RP.

Sadly though I doubt we will ever see this, as other unions prioritise other competitions over their bread and butter, if I had it my way, I would stick two fingers up to the scraps off the table that the English and French have given us in Europe and just play the "lesser" players in that comp, and put all our recources into our bread and butter, the Pro12.