Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

And I agree, we need better tele deals and sponsorship, how would you suggest we do this, from an Irish point of view ?

More Irish Provinces?

So...who wants to become an Irish Province???  Any takers?  All you need is a bunch of ordinary players who take orders quite well and live in cottonwool for half a year????

I was asking a serious question, but seemingly as you have answered it sarcastically I will answer the same.

No thanks we do not need more Irish provinces treating OUR league as a development tool for non CC players, thanks.

Thanks.

So serious answer. Welsh regions or Scottish teams joining us a few times at the business end of Europe. That's the only game in town for making sponsors sit up and take note of the quality of rugby coming from Pro12. You can only sell something that you can prove it worth it.
I've tried that before and you didn't want to listen. That's Irish over-ambition talking above the Pro12 League.
Nope - it's what has to happen. No more talk. Action.

SecretFly wrote:We give the League value and a level of European respect, and we're killing it with skulduggery, stubbornness, over-ambition, cheating and hypocrisy.

No, you use the league to suit yourselves, and prioritise Europe over it. Stop doing that, and we will stop moaning about how crap the league is.

Munchkin wrote:

How is it not! He's attacking the very product that gives the Italians, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh (including Cardiff Blues of which he is Chairman!) a means to raise their profile, to challenge the home nations, to pit themselves against the European elite, to win something of value.

Attacking it? He's trying to identify the problems and make it better.

If the product needed to be changed then why would he continue to throw money at it?

Because he's chairman of Cardiff Blues and trying to keep them alive.

Why on earth would SKY and Guinness come on board?

For the pittance they pay, it's a drop in the ocean.

How on earth has Pro12 been so successful at challenging the very best in Europe and winning?

The Pro12 hasn't done anything of the sort you madman. 2 teams in Ireland have, who reap the benefits of the Irish structure.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Exactly. We try and look at what is wrong in our country with the regions, and we bring the game into disrepute.

Pathetic.

We give the League value and a level of European respect, and we're killing it with skulduggery, stubbornness, over-ambition, cheating and hypocrisy.

Pathetic.

You don't give the league any respect at all.

You don't, when you sneer everything about it.  You despise Pro12 Chunky.  I keep saying that to you and you keep evading.  You want the destruction of Pro12 so that a League more to your liking shows up.  You want it to fail.

Respect?  You never show a dime's worth.

SecretFly wrote:

You don't, when you sneer everything about it.

True

You despise Pro12 Chunky.

True

I keep saying that to you and you keep evading.  

Not true

You want the destruction of Pro12 so that a League more to your liking shows up.

Completely true

You want it to fail.

True

Respect?  You never show a dime's worth.

Not to the pro12. It doesn't deserve it. The fact I turn up to watch it once a fortnight is in itself a minor miracle.

So if the last few pages of debate are anything to go by, there'll be no gathering around the Pro12 campfire for toasted marshmallows any day soon.

In short, the Pro12 is finished as a happy camper's paradise.

Maybe it could survive on a potent mix of begrudgery, sarcasm, impatience, frustration and hatred though.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:We give the League value and a level of European respect, and we're killing it with skulduggery, stubbornness, over-ambition, cheating and hypocrisy.

No, you use the league to suit yourselves, and prioritise Europe over it. Stop doing that, and we will stop moaning about how crap the league is.

How many times have Irish sides been in a Pro12 final?

You're talking crap.

You want the 'European' players to show up and cricket score Zebre?

You think that brings value to the League.

You think Irish Provinces are that good, that they'd change the nature of games by playing all their best players all the time?  Why should the lack of said players make Welsh or Scottish teams play any better?

How many finals have Provinces been in, whilst showing contempt for the competition by playing second string sides?

Your logic doesn't work, Lord.  We've danced around it every which way.  Teams rotate - it's needed when you're small and have a lot of extra responsibilities like International and player fatigue and injury concerns for best players.  We've done all this.  Your logic doesn't work.

Pot Hale wrote:

In short, the Pro12 is finished as a happy camper's paradise.
 

Yup. It's now a case of seeing the contracts out. And getting the Unions in the right mindset to vote for change.

SecretFly wrote:So serious answer. Welsh regions or Scottish teams joining us a few times at the business end of Europe. That's the only game in town for making sponsors sit up and take note of the quality of rugby coming from Pro12. You can only sell something that you can prove it worth it.
I've tried that before and you didn't want to listen. That's Irish over-ambition talking above the Pro12 League.
Nope - it's what has to happen. No more talk. Action.

Yes but I did listen, and I gave you an answer that YOU did not want to listen to. The European competition is a different business to the Pro12, what happens in that competition does have no barring on who sponsors the Pro12, if that was the case we would have had offers coming in left right and center when Leinster, Munster were winning it, you do not see the Premiership football relying on the Champions league for sponsorship do we ?

What we need is for us Welsh to stop our in-fighting, which we seem to have done for now thankfully, and we need to see the league with it's best players playing against each other every week, which will not happen, because that does not suit the Irish and their agenda. Until we have a league when all the best players are on show, against each other on a regular basis, then we will never get bang for our buck. Look at what the S14 is doing, they are selling their tele rights all over the world, why ? Because they play all their stars against each other every week, imagine how that would work out if they rested all their internationals all the time, it would die a very painful death.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

You don't, when you sneer everything about it.

True

You despise Pro12 Chunky.

True

I keep saying that to you and you keep evading.  

Not true

You want the destruction of Pro12 so that a League more to your liking shows up.

Completely true

You want it to fail.

True

Respect?  You never show a dime's worth.

Not to the pro12. It doesn't deserve it. The fact I turn up to watch it once a fortnight is in itself a minor miracle.

There you go. Stamp it to your bedroom wall and look at it when you next feel like making a 'constructive' comment on the League.

SecretFly wrote:

There you go.  Stamp it to your bedroom wall and look at it when you next feel like making a 'constructive' comment on the League.  

This thread has been very constructive thanks.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:"Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product"

And I agree, we need better tele deals and sponsorship, how would you suggest we do this, from an Irish point of view ?

You agree the Rabo has no chance?

We need the Welsh to fully commit to it. To raise their game. To work out a healthy relationship between WRU and the Regions. That's doable. It would be a massive bonus if the Italians would raise their game as well. I don't really want the Pro12 to go pay for view, but having one broadcaster would solve more than one problem, and raise the profile further.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:We give the League value and a level of European respect, and we're killing it with skulduggery, stubbornness, over-ambition, cheating and hypocrisy.

No, you use the league to suit yourselves, and prioritise Europe over it. Stop doing that, and we will stop moaning about how crap the league is.

How many times have Irish sides been in a Pro12 final?

You're talking crap.

You want the 'European' players to show up and cricket score Zebre?

You think that brings value to the League.

You think Irish Provinces are that good, that they'd change the nature of games by playing all their best players all the time?  Why should the lack of said players make Welsh or Scottish teams play any better?

How many finals have Provinces been in, whilst showing contempt for the competition by playing second string sides?

Your logic doesn't work, Lord.  We've danced around it every which way.  Teams rotate - it's needed when you're small and have a lot of extra responsibilities like International and player fatigue and injury concerns for best players.  We've done all this.  Your logic doesn't work.

SF, this is not about strength in depth, FFS it feels like I am going mad on here. The Irish provinces will always be at the top of the league, they have a bigger budget to work with, this is about attracting MORE revenues for our league, you wonder why people outside of our four countries laugh at our league ? It is because they see players who they do not know playing all the time. I wonder how many times an English person has tuned in to watch the Pro12 and asked himself, I wonder where Cain Healy is ? Or words to that affect. Unless we play our best players against each other every week, then we will not have a decent product to sell to anyone, but this will never happen because it will upset the status quo in Ireland.

I'd love to see UK viewing figures for the PRO12 matches on Sky. Are there any available?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So serious answer. Welsh regions or Scottish teams joining us a few times at the business end of Europe. That's the only game in town for making sponsors sit up and take note of the quality of rugby coming from Pro12. You can only sell something that you can prove it worth it.
I've tried that before and you didn't want to listen. That's Irish over-ambition talking above the Pro12 League.
Nope - it's what has to happen. No more talk. Action.

Yes but I did listen, and I gave you an answer that YOU did not want to listen to. The European competition is a different business to the Pro12, what happens in that competition does have no barring on who sponsors the Pro12, if that was the case we would have had offers coming in left right and center when Leinster, Munster were winning it, you do not see the Premiership football relying on the Champions league for sponsorship do we ?

Competely and totally wrong. All the Sponsors have seen to date is 'Irish' sides succeeding in Europe. They don't see that as Pro12's doing. Pro12 is a joke because one Nation allegedly dominates it. That's a fallacy of course but the outside sponsors looking in only judge on highest contests and all they see is Irish sides turning up.

Let's see what Pro12 can demand when in the next few years Ospreys or Glasgow might show up without us or with us. Let's see how they'd have to sit up and take notice when an Irish side And a Welsh side or a Welsh and Scottish side turn up in the semis. You seriously think that couldn't be used as leverage for the quality of the game played in the League??

Rubbish. To propel Pro12 you need to market it to people who don't watch it.................... Catch 22 unless you show what it does to people who watch European contests. Dominating that Would make the Pro12 itself more marketable. That it's even clinging to the money it gets now is due to the lingering memory of Munster and Leinster exploits in Europe. It wouldn't be getting close to what it gets had we all remained backwater sides. I doubt it would still even exist.

Maybe that's why Chunky resents Irish success so much - we've delayed his ideal solution He's impatient. This Pro12 thing must be brought to its knees!!!!

Munchkin wrote:We need the Welsh to fully commit to it.

Oh the hypocrisy of it all. I will tell you what, I will get on board with that, when the Irish stop treating our league as a development tool for the non CC players.

SecretFly wrote:Let's see how they'd have to sit up and take notice when an Irish side And a Welsh side or a Welsh and Scottish side turn up in the semis.

Again you keep banging on about this, but in recent memory, Edinburgh, Blues and Scarlets have got to semi finals along with the Irish teams, and it still made not one jot of a difference.

I'll tell you one thing, perhaps the Irish playing their best players in Europe is the reason why that competition can get so much sponsors.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's see how they'd have to sit up and take notice when an Irish side And a Welsh side or a Welsh and Scottish side turn up in the semis.

Again you keep banging on about this, but in recent memory, Edinburgh, Blues and Scarlets have got to semi finals along with the Irish teams, and it still made not one jot of a difference.

I'll tell you one thing, perhaps the Irish playing their best players in Europe is the reason why that competition can get so much sponsors.

And you, Lord, want Irish sides to sacrifice Europe to give their all to a less marketably visible contest.  No.  It won't happen.  You Upgrade the Regions,  We will try our hardest NOT to downgrade the Provinces.
Six or Seven sides in Pro12 with the actual strength to push hard in Europe is six or seven sides in Pro12 that can't afford to rest in it, can't afford to take their foot off the gas and competitiveness increases in a Real way.

You can't avoid the logic of it.  If you're good enough to be great in Pro12 then you'll also have enough to be great in Europe.  You still haven't answered how Irish sides allegedly not playing their best players over the years have still kept themselves roughly at the top of the League?  What is that saying about the quality of the opposition, that allegedly have had all their best players on show?  
Somebody who was showing up, wasn't trying!!!!  Absence of the heart is as noticeable as absence of the body.  Where were all the hearts of Welsh players?  Thinking of Gatland and International?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:We need the Welsh to fully commit to it.

Oh the hypocrisy of it all. I will tell you what, I will get on board with that, when the Irish stop treating our league as a development tool for the non CC players.

So you keep saying.

It's the Provinces that have raised the profile of the Pro12. The Regions have been bogged down in fighting with the WRU, and this in turn has had an adverse effect on the Pro12. Do you deny this?
It would benefit the Regions to have a much more improved relationship with the WRU, and this wouldn't only benefit the WRU/Regions, but also the Pro12. Do you deny this?

LD, you asked what it is that I think would help attract investors? I answer honestly, and you accuse me of hypocrisy... I don't agree with your view that we treat it as a development league. We are quite serious about winning it. To challenge to be the best we have to build strength in depth. To do that we must blood new IQ players, and to do that we have to start them against Pro12 opposition. It would be brainless to start them against strong teams, unless forced too, and so if there's a choice, play them against weaker opposition. If you think there's a better alternative let me know.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's see how they'd have to sit up and take notice when an Irish side And a Welsh side or a Welsh and Scottish side turn up in the semis.

Again you keep banging on about this, but in recent memory, Edinburgh, Blues and Scarlets have got to semi finals along with the Irish teams, and it still made not one jot of a difference.

I'll tell you one thing, perhaps the Irish playing their best players in Europe is the reason why that competition can get so much sponsors.

You can't truly believe that can you?You realise that Europe has a much larger audience to sell to and unless you can quadruple the population of Ireland,Scotland and Wales while also creating a rugby boom in Italy then we have no chance of matching or even getting close to the tv and sponsorship money that the AP and Top14 get.All your bleating about the Irish teams not playing their best players seems to ignore the basic economic facts.How much more do you think the league can possibly get and where do you think it can get this money from?

asoreleftshoulder wrote: unless you can quadruple the population of Ireland,Scotland and Wales while also creating a rugby boom in Italy then we have no chance of matching or even getting close to the tv and sponsorship money that the AP and Top14 get.

So if you acknowledge this fact - why don't you want to join a competition that CAN get close to that kind of sponsorship money?

LordDowlais wrote:

SF, this is not about strength in depth, FFS it feels like I am going mad on here. The Irish provinces will always be at the top of the league, they have a bigger budget to work with, this is about attracting MORE revenues for our league, you wonder why people outside of our four countries laugh at our league ? It is because they see players who they do not know playing all the time. I wonder how many times an English person has tuned in to watch the Pro12 and asked himself, I wonder where Cain Healy is ? Or words to that affect. Unless we play our best players against each other every week, then we will not have a decent product to sell to anyone, but this will never happen because it will upset the status quo in Ireland.

Where were the blasted Welsh????

Where were they in all this time that people were moaning about not seeing Cian fecking Healy?  

The Welsh were scampering off to France to be seen there because the Regions wouldn't say hello to the WRU is a corridor, because of tons of age old baggage about clubs not being Regions and Moffett doing something good but then coming back and winding up the Welsh to cause more mayhem. Turmoil, turmoil, strife and trouble.

Where were the wonderful Welsh Internationals kicking the fecking butts off the Irish Provinces that dared to show up with their academy players?

Why is it always the Irish who must do most marketing?  And when we say "We have done most marketing" - you say: "Arrogance - yous never showed up for Pro12"  

When the better players Did show up, at least they played like best players.  The Welsh best players were off dreaming of their next GS

We all have had Priorities.  I said that before.  Stop making me endlessly repeat myself.  We all rotate OUT OF NECESSITY and we ALL HAVE HAD OUR PRIORITIES.

Do you admit the truth of those two things, Lord?

SecretFly wrote:You still haven't answered how Irish sides allegedly not playing their best players over the years have still kept themselves roughly at the top of the League?

Yes I have, but to keep you amused I will answer it again, you stay at the to because you have a bigger budget to work with and have better strength in depth, but that still does not mean you play your star players.

Look, you lot keep making excuses or keep trying to justify the reasons why you do not prioritise our league, I do not care, but the bold hard facts are, that you treat the league the same as we do, you just do it in different ways, the Pro12 does need a re-vamp, and not playing our best players in it is only damaging for the league, no matter how you try and polish it, and saying doing better in another competition is good for a different competition is the biggest load of bollox I have ever heard.

Munchkin wrote:It's the Provinces that have raised the profile of the Pro12. The Regions have been bogged down in fighting with the WRU, and this in turn has had an adverse effect on the Pro12. Do you deny this?

Read through this debate, not once have I denied anything, I have accepted OUR part in the Pro12 failings, it others who fail to look at what they have done as well, and then try and justify it by talking nonsense.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote: unless you can quadruple the population of Ireland,Scotland and Wales while also creating a rugby boom in Italy then we have no chance of matching or even getting close to the tv and sponsorship money that the AP and Top14 get.

So if you acknowledge this fact -  why don't you want to join a competition that CAN get close to that kind of sponsorship money?

What kind of sponsorship money?  More money and more teams to share it out.  Where is the BIG injection of money to an individual team?  
The Welsh keep talking as if they needed the Irish Provinces to come in on the B&I League idea to make it a viable selling point to the English, who allegedly don't want the Welsh on their own???

Why not have confidence to move into the English threads and fight your case 'constructively' there, Chunky?  
Why don't you camp with the English in their International and Club threads and constantly provide them with constructive ideas on the Welsh and English joining up in a common League.  Four Welsh Regions joining the AP - that's the AP16 that some PRL people have already alluded to wanting. Talk them into it.

Don't you have the courage to believe enough in Welsh regional rugby to be of the opinion that you don't need the Irish Provinces at all in any negotiation with the English?

The Regions certainly showed they didn't need us when they were plotting on leaving the Pro12 last year.  Not a care in the world about the rest or the threats - just Biz and survival.

So away with you - do the same again, coax the English posters to let the Welsh Regions play in an Anglo Welsh Super League.

Already done that:

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You still haven't answered how Irish sides allegedly not playing their best players over the years have still kept themselves roughly at the top of the League?

Yes I have, but to keep you amused I will answer it again, you stay at the to because you have a bigger budget to work with and have better strength in depth, but that still does not mean you play your star players.

Look, you lot keep making excuses or keep trying to justify the reasons why you do not prioritise our league, I do not care, but the bold hard facts are, that you treat the league the same as we do, you just do it in different ways, the Pro12 does need a re-vamp, and not playing our best players in it is only damaging for the league, no matter how you try and polish it, and saying doing better in another competition is good for a different competition is the biggest load of bollox I have ever heard.

Bollix is the word, Lord.  You mentioned it.  I second it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's the Provinces that have raised the profile of the Pro12. The Regions have been bogged down in fighting with the WRU, and this in turn has had an adverse effect on the Pro12. Do you deny this?

Read through this debate, not once have I denied anything, I have accepted OUR part in the Pro12 failings, it others who fail to look at what they have done as well, and then try and justify it by talking nonsense.

Then why accuse me of hypocrisy if you agree with me?!?

It isn't nonsense to say that we must build strength in depth. Nor that we must do so by blooding IQ players. Nor that we must blood them in the Pro12. This is necessity. It's also necessity that we will be without the star players for chunks of the season due to International duty, IRFU orders to rest, or injury.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Already done that:

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league

No, no.  That's us again.  Trying to convince us to go along with you.

I'm saying why can't you talk up the Anglo Welsh League... you know the thing the Regions already threatened last year if they didn't get their way.

Have the courage of your convictions.  Drop us - we're stubborn, we're non-cooperative, we're overly self-ambitious.  
Drop us from your plans and simply bypass the idea of needing us at all.  

Talk to the English directly: "How's about us having a Super League of 16 teams?  Four Welsh, Twelve English?  What do ya think?"

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You still haven't answered how Irish sides allegedly not playing their best players over the years have still kept themselves roughly at the top of the League?

Yes I have, but to keep you amused I will answer it again, you stay at the to because you have a bigger budget to work with and have better strength in depth, but that still does not mean you play your star players.

Look, you lot keep making excuses or keep trying to justify the reasons why you do not prioritise our league, I do not care, but the bold hard facts are, that you treat the league the same as we do, you just do it in different ways, the Pro12 does need a re-vamp, and not playing our best players in it is only damaging for the league, no matter how you try and polish it, and saying doing better in another competition is good for a different competition is the biggest load of bollox I have ever heard.

Bollix is the word, Lord.  You mentioned it.  I second it.

OK SF, so the IRFU/Provinces/Branches and every one else in Ireland all get together and say, "I know, we will not play our best players in the league, we will keep them for Europe, because by doing better in Europe it raises the profile of the league" ? Come on SF please do not take me for an idiot, the provinces keep their best players for Europe to raise the profile of Irish rugby, not the Welsh, not the Scottish and not the Italians, you are looking after your own, there is nothing wrong with this, you just need to admit it. We are all guilty of neglecting OUR league, nit just us Welsh, so just live with it.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Already done that:

https://www.606v2.com/t57753-a-british-irish-league

No, no.  That's us again.  Trying to convince us to go along with you.

I'm saying why can't you talk up the Anglo Welsh League... you know the thing the Regions already threatened last year if they didn't get their way.

Have the courage of your convictions.  Drop us - we're stubborn, we're non-cooperative, we're overly self-ambitious.  
Drop us from your plans and simply bypass the idea of needing us at all.  

Talk to the English directly: "How's about us having a Super League of 16 teams?  Four Welsh, Twelve English?  What do ya think?"

I think it would work better as a British and Irish League. If you read the thread I just posted you wouldn't have to ask these things.

Also for the record, I have no interest in a British and Irish league, I am only interested in MY league, the Pro12, and what we can do to make it better, but as it seems, it's only us Welsh who need to change, everyone else can stay as they are apparently. Now, where have I heard this before ? Oh I know, when we were arguing with the English and French over Europe, funny thing is, I now seem to be having the same argument with the Irish.

Never mind us, you don't like us.

What's wrong with having more money but less of it to share out?  An Anglo/Welsh League.  No nuisances looking for their share.  No more Irish ref hassle.  More money share for the Regions on their own.  More cross linking of players between Welsh Regions and English clubs.  BT.  Money.  End of Salary Cap.  Being able to buy back Welsh players playing in France.

What's wrong with what the Regions already threatened last year?  It's a solution of benefits in twofold.  You get the bigger market and you get rid of us.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote: unless you can quadruple the population of Ireland,Scotland and Wales while also creating a rugby boom in Italy then we have no chance of matching or even getting close to the tv and sponsorship money that the AP and Top14 get.

So if you acknowledge this fact -  why don't you want to join a competition that CAN get close to that kind of sponsorship money?

What competition is that,if we had an equal share of power and couldn't be politically hamstrung like we were in Europe then I'd love to see us sign up to this competition.However the old saying "hold out both your hands,wish into one,take a dump in the other and see which fills up faster" comes to mind.

LordDowlais wrote:Also for the record, I have no interest in a British and Irish league, I am only interested in MY league, the Pro12, and what we can do to make it better, but as it seems, it's only us Welsh who need to change, everyone else can stay as they are apparently. Now, where have I heard this before ? Oh I know, when we were arguing with the English and French over Europe, funny thing is, I now seem to be having the same argument with the Irish.

That's why I love you, Lord. Keeping the faith through the topsy turvy years.

SecretFly wrote:Never mind us, you don't like us.

What's wrong with having less money to share out?  An Anglo/Welsh League.  No nuisances looking for their share.  No more Irish ref hassle.  More money share for the Regions on their own.  More cross linking of players between Welsh Regions and English clubs.  BT.  Money.  End of Salary Cap.  Being able to buy back Welsh players playing in France.

What's wrong with what the Regions already threatened last year?  It's a solution of benefits in twofold.  You get the bigger market and you get rid of us.

There won't be less money to share out.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

What competition is that,if we had an equal share of power and couldn't be politically hamstrung like we were in Europe then I'd love to see us sign up to this competition.However the old saying "hold out both your hands,wish into one,take a dump in the other and see which fills up faster" comes to mind.

So you have no interest in trying to garner support for such a competition which could see UK and Irishdomestic rugby catch up with the French in terms of money?

Just a wee look at a random selection of Irish and Welsh players and their appearances in Pro12 games. Just as they occurred to me and not as an equivalence. Not in any order. Not taking into account injuries.

Just to spark some sober, reflective discussion, you understand. You can all draw your own conlusions about any discrepancy.

Sam Warburton 9
Jamie Heaslip 8+1
Taulupe Faletau 8 + 2
Liam Williams 9
Tommy Bowe 8
Peter O’Mahony 5+1
Rory Best 9 +1
AW Jones 9+2
Rhys Webb 9+2
Conor Murray 7
Devin Toner 8+1
Samson Lee 5+1
Robbie Henshaw 9
Simon Zebo 10
Justin Tipuric 11
Dan Biggar 11+1
Gethin Jenkins 6+1
Sean O’Brien 1


And also, as a bit of a thought experiment:

International, big-name players who played zero minutes in the Pro12 and therefore added precisely nothing to its attractiveness to either audiences or sponsors:

Irish
Jonathon Sexton

Welsh
George North, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Jonathan Davies, Mike Phillips, Richard Hibbard, Luke Charteris


P.S.
This thread is full-on mental.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Never mind us, you don't like us.

What's wrong with having less money to share out?  An Anglo/Welsh League.  No nuisances looking for their share.  No more Irish ref hassle.  More money share for the Regions on their own.  More cross linking of players between Welsh Regions and English clubs.  BT.  Money.  End of Salary Cap.  Being able to buy back Welsh players playing in France.

What's wrong with what the Regions already threatened last year?  It's a solution of benefits in twofold.  You get the bigger market and you get rid of us.

There won't be less money to share out.

I reworked that sentence. I meant less of the MORE money to share out. More money for Regions alone. Why do I never see you chatting to the English boys about ideas like that?

Full mental jacket

SecretFly wrote:Keeping the faith through the topsy turvy years.

I kept on supporting Wales through the nineties as well.

SecretFly wrote:
I reworked that sentence.  I meant less of the MORE money to share out.  More money for Regions alone.  Why do I never see you chatting to the English boys about ideas like that?

If they're not in the thread I can't chat to them. They're probably so p1ss bored of the rantings about the tiresome Prolapse12 they stay well away whenever it's mentioned.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

What competition is that,if we had an equal share of power and couldn't be politically hamstrung like we were in Europe then I'd love to see us sign up to this competition.However the old saying "hold out both your hands,wish into one,take a dump in the other and see which fills up faster" comes to mind.

So you have no interest in trying to garner support for such a competition which could see UK and Irishdomestic rugby catch up with the French in terms of money?

The French are rivals and the English never tried to control French 'advantages' whilst trying to eat into 'Pro12 advantages'.

A little late in the day for us to be concerned about English concerns about the French.

The English I consider rivals - not partners - rivals.
The French I consider rivals - not partners - rivals.

Now why should logic presume that I would more like to see English rugby gain on the French (which they will do on their own anyway, all they have to do is say the capping system is Over; - they have the money already to make their increased buying power tell when and if they decide to)?

Why do you see English rugby as a Natural ally against the big bad French?

I don't see it that way.  They're all rivals.  I don't want to be consumed, controlled, directed by either.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
I reworked that sentence.  I meant less of the MORE money to share out.  More money for Regions alone.  Why do I never see you chatting to the English boys about ideas like that?

If they're not in the thread I can't chat to them. They're probably so p1ss bored of the rantings about the tiresome Prolapse12 they stay well away whenever it's mentioned.

Doesn't really have to be about the Pro12. Start a new thread on how an Anglo Welsh/Anglo Irish will be better for the English than the AP

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
I reworked that sentence.  I meant less of the MORE money to share out.  More money for Regions alone.  Why do I never see you chatting to the English boys about ideas like that?

If they're not in the thread I can't chat to them. They're probably so p1ss bored of the rantings about the tiresome Prolapse12 they stay well away whenever it's mentioned.

You know where they are. They're around abouts. One thread entry is as easy as another. The trick is you never mention Pro12...only AngloWelsh League.

Don Alfonso, I am not talking so much about this season, as things HAVE started to change, both with our in-fighting and how the CC are being played, I am talking about over time, and the damage we have all done. Also, on that list you have selected almost all the Welsh internationals, yet I cannot see as much CC Irish players on that list. There are only 9 CC Irish players, how many games have all the rest played ?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
I reworked that sentence.  I meant less of the MORE money to share out.  More money for Regions alone.  Why do I never see you chatting to the English boys about ideas like that?

If they're not in the thread I can't chat to them. They're probably so p1ss bored of the rantings about the tiresome Prolapse12 they stay well away whenever it's mentioned.

You know where they are.  They're around abouts.  One thread entry is as easy as another.  The trick is you never mention Pro12...only AngloWelsh League.

But I want a British and Irish League.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

What competition is that,if we had an equal share of power and couldn't be politically hamstrung like we were in Europe then I'd love to see us sign up to this competition.However the old saying "hold out both your hands,wish into one,take a dump in the other and see which fills up faster" comes to mind.

So you have no interest in trying to garner support for such a competition which could see UK and Irishdomestic rugby catch up with the French in terms of money?

As much interest as I have in winning the lotto.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

What competition is that,if we had an equal share of power and couldn't be politically hamstrung like we were in Europe then I'd love to see us sign up to this competition.However the old saying "hold out both your hands,wish into one,take a dump in the other and see which fills up faster" comes to mind.

So you have no interest in trying to garner support for such a competition which could see UK and Irishdomestic rugby catch up with the French in terms of money?

As much interest as I have in winning the lotto.

Lots of interest then?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

What competition is that,if we had an equal share of power and couldn't be politically hamstrung like we were in Europe then I'd love to see us sign up to this competition.However the old saying "hold out both your hands,wish into one,take a dump in the other and see which fills up faster" comes to mind.

So you have no interest in trying to garner support for such a competition which could see UK and Irishdomestic rugby catch up with the French in terms of money?

As much interest as I have in winning the lotto.

Lots of interest then?

Yep lots,but with the caveat that I don't think there's any realistic shot of it happening, I would be willing to make a minimal investment of time and money to help it along but it would be very minimal.