Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

The Welsh, as you call it, have actually won the league a few times though. They bring more internationals to it and I'm willing to bet more cash(?). So perhaps it would actually be better off without the wooden spoon brigade. Anglo-Welsh and Irish league for the win.

If the supposed difference in the amount of revenue brought in by tv deals between pro12 nations is true it would be very interesting to see how the Pro12 would survive if we were to go. Would the provinces still be able to sign All Blacks (or even retain Irish stars) on the penuts they would have in comparision to the French and English then?

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No Fly, you're the one talking about a souless comp not me. I did and do want to see a comp of high class teams and not rubbish ones. It's supposed to be the premier comp so this makes sense to me.

If you mean competitive say that, souls haven't got anything to do with it.

There were plenty of 'souls' shafted out of the deal with no soul used in the decision - just money, power, influence and biz.  I say again, some of the money, power, biz and influence sides didn't show up to fight with soul when it most counted.  
This new competition was trademarked as an end of the dross and the emergence of real battles with genuine top sides.  I didn't see that fight in the Clermont quarter-final.  It was a Gladiator battle that didn't materialise.  The publicists got it wrong.

The old HEC was grinding and rusty and had it's one sided games - but it wasn't us complaining about it - it was the people who now claim the Clermont/Saints game to be a 'classic'?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

Eh? You're actually basing your entire opinion on 1 game of an out of sorts Saints? Who on earth is saying this is a classic?

There were too many poor teams in the last comp, there's still too many now, Saints aren't a poor team.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

Exactly, this, and this is what I am talking about, we have all been at fault, but for some reason, it is only the Welsh getting tarred and feathered.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

Yiz were walking out even then.

The last line in that article is the one you should be concentrating on.

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in Kate Bush.

marty2086 wrote:Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor? how much credibility do you think the league had in those negotiations with that hanging over them

The problem is that the regions want everyone else to make up for their shortcomings, its a recurring theme

Yes, we know what we are to be blamed for, but instead of finger pointing perhaps you should look at how the Irish provinces/IRFU have treated the league since it's inception, again, more Welsh blaming on here before you look at your own faults.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No Fly, you're the one talking about a souless comp not me. I did and do want to see a comp of high class teams and not rubbish ones. It's supposed to be the premier comp so this makes sense to me.

If you mean competitive say that, souls haven't got anything to do with it.

There were plenty of 'souls' shafted out of the deal with no soul used in the decision - just money, power, influence and biz.  I say again, some of the money, power, biz and influence sides didn't show up to fight with soul when it most counted.  
This new competition was trademarked as an end of the dross and the emergence of real battles with genuine top sides.  I didn't see that fight in the Clermont quarter-final.  It was a Gladiator battle that didn't materialise.  The publicists got it wrong.

The old HEC was grinding and rusty and had it's one sided games - but it wasn't us complaining about it - it was the people who now claim the Clermont/Saints game to be a 'classic'?

Fly, you could argue that fans from teams like the Exeter, Gloucester, Edinburgh and the Dragons have seen a real improvement from the new system for their sides. They are now in a tournament that suits them, and doesn't have big name sides dropping down from the above tier. All four of them are looking forward potential silverware, instead of knowing their seasons are all over and done with.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eh? You're actually basing your entire opinion on 1 game of an out of sorts Saints? Who on earth is saying this is a classic?

There were too many poor teams in the last comp, there's still too many now, Saints aren't a poor team.

No you know what I'm doing, I'm pointing out how bias works.  It's no secret that the people who cried for the new way and got their way forgot that a pretty important quarter final was a dud in competitiveness when they were lauding how great the competition now was - just as it's no secret why those of us who were against the grand new 'meritocratic' way Do remember that game and ask 'that's the end of dross??'

Follow the thread, follow though the path of my comments on the subject.  Someone says this competition is better, I point out the weaknesses in the argument..... and so back and forth until we all tire again...............................

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor? how much credibility do you think the league had in those negotiations with that hanging over them

The problem is that the regions want everyone else to make up for their shortcomings, its a recurring theme

Yes, we know what we are to be blamed for, but instead of finger pointing perhaps you should look at how the Irish provinces/IRFU have treated the league since it's inception, again, more Welsh blaming on here before you look at your own faults.

How have we treated it? I think the Provinces have worked hard to increase the fan base - fill grounds - compete for the top - compete with the AP/T14 and top European seeding - make the league more attractive - attract Pro12 investors. They have been successful...

So what did we do to tarnish the Pro12 image exactly?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

That was a response to another AP attempt to weaken the Pro12. Something RRW were once again all to happy to lift their skirts for. Didn't work though

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

That was a response to another AP attempt to weaken the Pro12. Something RRW were once again all to happy to lift their skirts for. Didn't work though

What didn't work?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor? how much credibility do you think the league had in those negotiations with that hanging over them

The problem is that the regions want everyone else to make up for their shortcomings, its a recurring theme

Yes, we know what we are to be blamed for, but instead of finger pointing perhaps you should look at how the Irish provinces/IRFU have treated the league since it's inception, again, more Welsh blaming on here before you look at your own faults.

Which would be what exactly?

Munchkin wrote:So what did we do to tarnish the Pro12 image exactly?

OMG, you Irish are sitting so high on your horses you do not even realise how you behave. The IRFU have used the Celtic league as a development tool since it's inception, NEVER have I seen the centrally contracted players play in our league on a regular basis, since day one you have seen the European competition as the main prize, only playing your best players in that competition. Perhaps if you treated the league with less contempt over the years then our league would be held in a higher regard around Europe, but lets not let that get in the way of a good Welsh witch hunt.

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That horse isn't going get any deader mate. Lots of other posters have shown that the Edinburgh and Glasgow teams have less than a handful of Non Scottish qualified players. I'm not sure what anyone can say to convince you otherwise.

But hey, lets not allow facts to get in the way of your trolling attempts....

First off, please get your facts right, they might be SQ players but a massive chunk of those players are NOT Scottish, they are time serving players, why is it that on here nobody is willing to take responsibility for any of their faults ? I am fed up of people getting on their high horse when it concerns the Welsh.

Secondly, I do not come on here to TROLL, you just say that to hide behind you unions inadequacies. I admit that the in-fighting in Wales has not helped our league, but the worst run union in top tier rugby (SRU) does not do anything to help our league either, people should look in house before they come on here laying blame for everything on the doorstep of the Welsh.

We do not do things by halves, is you insist on slagging off the Scott (Johnson centre of excellence in) Rugby Union please do not belittle our inadequacies.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

That was a response to another AP attempt to weaken the Pro12. Something RRW were once again all to happy to lift their skirts for. Didn't work though

What didn't work?

Who takes the LV seriously?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

That was a response to another AP attempt to weaken the Pro12. Something RRW were once again all to happy to lift their skirts for. Didn't work though

What didn't work?

Who takes the LV seriously?

You're not answering the question. What didn't work?

I'd assume the attempt to weaken the Pro12?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So what did we do to tarnish the Pro12 image exactly?

OMG, you Irish are sitting so high on your horses you do not even realise how you behave. The IRFU have used the Celtic league as a development tool since it's inception, NEVER have I seen the centrally contracted players play in our league on a regular basis, since day one you have seen the European competition as the main prize, only playing your best players in that competition. Perhaps if you treated the league with less contempt over the years then our league would be held in a higher regard around Europe, but lets not let that get in the way of a good Welsh witch hunt.

"OMG" you old drama queen

You haven't seen them play on a regular basis? You don't watch much rugby then, eh? Take a peak at Ulsters fixtures last season, and your claim falls flat.

You say we have treated it with contempt, you say a lot of things, but have yet to actually provide any evidence for your tin hat conspiracy theories.

You also completely ignore the positive impact the Provinces have made on the Pro12, whilst largely ignoring the negative contribution of the Regions.

SecretFly wrote:I'd assume the attempt to weaken the Pro12?

So the Welsh, knowing that they were signed up to the celtic league for years to come, deliberately hatched a plan with the English to weaken the very league they play in, by sideloading a development cross border league with the English.

And WE ARE THE ONES doing the conspiracy theories?

This is fantastic.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eh? You're actually basing your entire opinion on 1 game of an out of sorts Saints? Who on earth is saying this is a classic?

There were too many poor teams in the last comp, there's still too many now, Saints aren't a poor team.

No you know what I'm doing, I'm pointing out how bias works.  It's no secret that the people who cried for the new way and got their way forgot that a pretty important quarter final was a dud in competitiveness when they were lauding how great the competition now was - just as it's no secret why those of us who were against the grand new 'meritocratic' way Do remember that game and ask 'that's the end of dross??'

Follow the thread, follow though the path of my comments on the subject.  Someone says this competition is better, I point out the weaknesses in the argument..... and so back and forth until we all tire again...............................

It's more meritocratic, it should be more still. This being sport you'll always get games that end in a humping. You really not see the difference?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

That was a response to another AP attempt to weaken the Pro12. Something RRW were once again all to happy to lift their skirts for. Didn't work though

What didn't work?

Who takes the LV seriously?

You're not answering the question. What didn't work?

There was a bold clue contained within my reply. Have a think.

Leinster have reached every final since the inception of the playoff system. We even managed to get 17k to the home Treviso match around this time last year which is what the Ospreys Scarlets derby match had this season...Not bad for not taking the league seriously.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So what did we do to tarnish the Pro12 image exactly?

OMG, you Irish are sitting so high on your horses you do not even realise how you behave. The IRFU have used the Celtic league as a development tool since it's inception, NEVER have I seen the centrally contracted players play in our league on a regular basis, since day one you have seen the European competition as the main prize, only playing your best players in that competition. Perhaps if you treated the league with less contempt over the years then our league would be held in a higher regard around Europe, but lets not let that get in the way of a good Welsh witch hunt.

Maybe had more Welsh sides joined us at the top of Europe more often that would have been an even bigger endorsement of Pro12???

Maybe had Welsh players played with the meaty intensity they often saved for International during European competition, that might have helped the Pro12 brand?

Why is the success of some Pro12 teams in Europe deemed to have been a killer on the League itself?  _ Do not tell me that Welsh fans were longing to see Irish A players show up in Wales, and would have turned up in their droves to see them!    We ain't ever that popular or that glorified - even when Leinster were on their winning spree in Europe, their opponents always seemed to have all the 'star' players according to commentators and pundits  

No, Irish famous players not showing up in Wales didn't keep Welsh fans away from Regional games.  Try something else, Lord.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So what did we do to tarnish the Pro12 image exactly?

OMG, you Irish are sitting so high on your horses you do not even realise how you behave. The IRFU have used the Celtic league as a development tool since it's inception, NEVER have I seen the centrally contracted players play in our league on a regular basis, since day one you have seen the European competition as the main prize, only playing your best players in that competition. Perhaps if you treated the league with less contempt over the years then our league would be held in a higher regard around Europe, but lets not let that get in the way of a good Welsh witch hunt.

Its gone so badly that the Welsh have adopted the same approach

If you compare Heaslip and Faletau as both are regulars and rarely injured
                 JH                  TF
2014/15     6+1                8+2
2013/14      11                12+2
2012/13      10                13+1
2011/12     6+1                  7
2010/11     10+2              11+2

Faletaus played 11 more league games in the last 5 seasons, that's a difference of two or three games a season and when you factor in resting Heaslip for big European games as has been done this past weekend its hardly a huge difference.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eh? You're actually basing your entire opinion on 1 game of an out of sorts Saints? Who on earth is saying this is a classic?

There were too many poor teams in the last comp, there's still too many now, Saints aren't a poor team.

No you know what I'm doing, I'm pointing out how bias works.  It's no secret that the people who cried for the new way and got their way forgot that a pretty important quarter final was a dud in competitiveness when they were lauding how great the competition now was - just as it's no secret why those of us who were against the grand new 'meritocratic' way Do remember that game and ask 'that's the end of dross??'

Follow the thread, follow though the path of my comments on the subject.  Someone says this competition is better, I point out the weaknesses in the argument..... and so back and forth until we all tire again...............................

It's more meritocratic, it should be more still. This being sport you'll always get games that end in a humping. You really not see the difference?

I see that the English still have six automatic entries in this new meritocratic contest, that France still have six automatic entries in this new meritocratic contest, and that the rest of us have gone down to one auto entry apiece.  That's what I continue to see, 7&1/2.  I think six auto chances to win each year whilst other nations only get one is far from being meritocratic.

But we've been there so often.  We'll leave it there.  We won't be agreeing on the definition of 'meritocratic'.

The League is not perfect we all admit that but is it as bad as some would have you believe?

Since the inception of Regions Wales have had their most successful period since the 70s, is that because of the league or despite it?

The Irish have also had a very successful period Internationally and have enjoyed numerous successes in Europe with theie Provinces, again is that because or despite the league system?

We know the Welsh regions can't compete with the English and French but the clubs couldn't have either and in fact the clubs were always poaching off each other and offering 'incentives' to players to join them long before the pro era.

We also know that the Provinces rested players early on in the season and saved them for Europe but now with the new qualifying system I think we will see that change and there will be more meaningful games towards end of the season.

Will these new DCs help the Regions, again only time will tell. There is too much rugby on TV but as its a big slice of the revenue for the league it won't change anytime soon but the Regions/Provinces/Clubs should have more say in when they play their games rather than the TVs dictate.

The Dragons have been hammered this year with Sunday games and as Chunky has eluded to in previous posts who in their right mind arranges a Welsh derby match on a Sunday FFS. The games should be at prime time as to attract the biggest amount of fans possible. But public transport to West Wales on a Sunday is poor at best.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eh? You're actually basing your entire opinion on 1 game of an out of sorts Saints? Who on earth is saying this is a classic?

There were too many poor teams in the last comp, there's still too many now, Saints aren't a poor team.

No you know what I'm doing, I'm pointing out how bias works.  It's no secret that the people who cried for the new way and got their way forgot that a pretty important quarter final was a dud in competitiveness when they were lauding how great the competition now was - just as it's no secret why those of us who were against the grand new 'meritocratic' way Do remember that game and ask 'that's the end of dross??'

Follow the thread, follow though the path of my comments on the subject.  Someone says this competition is better, I point out the weaknesses in the argument..... and so back and forth until we all tire again...............................

It's more meritocratic, it should be more still. This being sport you'll always get games that end in a humping. You really not see the difference?

I see that the English still have six automatic entries in this new meritocratic contest, that France still have six automatic entries in this new meritocratic contest, and that the rest of us have gone down to one auto entry apiece.  That's what I continue to see, 7&1/2.  I think six auto chances to win each year whilst other nations only get one is far from being meritocratic.

But we've been there so often.  We'll leave it there.  We won't be agreeing on the definition of 'meritocratic'.

3 leagues Fly, this isn't internationals.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So what did we do to tarnish the Pro12 image exactly?

OMG, you Irish are sitting so high on your horses you do not even realise how you behave. The IRFU have used the Celtic league as a development tool since it's inception, NEVER have I seen the centrally contracted players play in our league on a regular basis, since day one you have seen the European competition as the main prize, only playing your best players in that competition. Perhaps if you treated the league with less contempt over the years then our league would be held in a higher regard around Europe, but lets not let that get in the way of a good Welsh witch hunt.

Its gone so badly that the Welsh have adopted the same approach

If you compare Heaslip and Faletau as both are regulars and rarely injured
                       JH                  TF
2014/15     6+1                8+2
2013/14      11                12+2
2012/13      10                13+1
2011/12     6+1                  7
2010/11     10+2              11+2

Faletaus played 11 more league games in the last 5 seasons, that's a difference of two or three games a season and when you factor in resting Heaslip for big European games as has been done this past weekend its hardly a huge difference.

Heaslip picks up a fair few knocks doesn't he where as Faletau is very rarely injured plus the Jones boys have huge trouble trying to rest Taulupe as he wants to play every game. Which as I understand is one of the main stumbling blocks in him signing a DC as he deosn't want to be limited to 16 games a season.

For what it's worth I've come to quite enjoy the league, the slagging off of each other by the Celtic Nations is ridiculous however, the Top 4 has at least one of each in, and the top eight has at least 2 so sitting around arguing over petty points about who brings more makes little sense. Furthermore criticising the Irish for prioritising the European Cup only works if they didn't keep winning both of them, laughing at Scotland for winning the wooden spoon is completely irrelevant as Glasgow are currently on top of the Pro12 and the fact that the Ospreys are the joint most successful competition suggests that the Welsh bring something to the competition.
As well as that the league is beginning to grow it's own little rivalries akin to the English League, Glasgow have built up rivalries with the Ospreys, Munster, and Leinster and seem to have a fairly friendly relationship with Ulster
I think the truth is no one has any issues at all with the League itself but rather you'd rather that the highest standard of rugby in your country was your national competition.That's never ever going to happen there simply isn't the money or population to sustain 8+ quality professional clubs from one sport, in no international sport does any of the three nations have anything worth speaking of in terms of a national league. The SPL gets worse every year, Ireland's best football players play in England and Scotland and Wales' best clubs even left Wales. The combined population of the three nations is 12 millions, a fifth of the English so let's abandon the hope of competing with them numbers wise, it won't happen, but if we accept that we have together have a product just as good if not better and continue to work with it eventually we will see parity in economic value as will the Broadcasters. Why the Welsh and Irish argue about it I don't know because you keep winning it and you've won the last four six nations between you.
The only change I'd make it to remove at least one of the Italian teams, they don't improve the league, they've got no fans, no history, no rivalries and it would cut down travelling time. I'd replace them with a team from Aberdeen and then look into the standard of the remaining one in relation to a team from the Borders or North Wales.
I do like the idea of the Stay in Pro12 rule mentioned further up, it would improve the quality a lot more and would mean that no longer would any player moving clubs only look at the Aviva or Top 14. Off the top of my head a combined team of Celtic players playing outside the league would be:

1. Paul James
2. Hibbard
3. Cross
4. Hamilton
5. Charteris
6. Barclay
7. Cowan
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Max Evans
15. Halfpenny

123456789 wrote:
6. Barclay

Who's this?

bedfordwelsh wrote:The League is not perfect we all admit that but is it as bad as some would have you believe?

Since the inception of Regions Wales have had their most successful period since the 70s, is that because of the league or despite it?

The Irish have also had a very successful period Internationally and have enjoyed numerous successes in Europe with theie Provinces, again is that because or despite the league system?

We know the Welsh regions can't compete with the English and French but the clubs couldn't have either and in fact the clubs were always poaching off each other and offering 'incentives' to players to join them long before the pro era.

We also know that the Provinces rested players early on in the season and saved them for Europe but now with the new qualifying system I think we will see that change and there will be more meaningful games towards end of the season.

Will these new DCs help the Regions, again only time will tell.  There is too much rugby on TV but as its a big slice of the revenue for the league it won't change anytime soon but the Regions/Provinces/Clubs should have more say in when they play their games rather than the TVs dictate.

The Dragons have been hammered this year with Sunday games and as Chunky has eluded to in previous posts who in their right mind arranges a Welsh derby match on a Sunday FFS.  The games should be at prime time as to attract the biggest amount of fans possible.  But public transport to West Wales on a Sunday is poor at best.

No, it isn't bad at all. It's improving, and it's growing, despite the wails of the disgruntled few.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

123456789 wrote:
6. Barclay

Who's this?

John Barclay, although he does actually still play in the Pro12. Sorry I made a mistake, it was not my fault, it was the fault of the Welsh and Irish because that's how Pro12 discussions work.

123456789 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

123456789 wrote:
6. Barclay

Who's this?

John Barclay, although he does actually still play in the Pro12. Sorry I made a mistake, it was not my fault, it was the fault of the Welsh and Irish because that's how Pro12 discussions work.

I have to laugh at some of the Irish excuses on this thread, comparing single players and how many times they have played, but the facts speak for themselves, the IRFU prioritised Europe over their own league, why the Irish on here are denying this is beyond me, they all seem happy to blame everything on the Welsh, then they are saying with a sarcastic tone that the Welsh fans would all turn out for the Irish internationals, but this debate is about marketing our league, and because the IRFU did not take the league as serious as it did Europe over the years, sponsors do not see it as a marketable franchise.

I am not saying that this is the only reason though, I am saying it is part of the reason, along with our in-fighting, and other reasons from other unions, but for what ever reason the Irish and a few Scottish on here want to plant the blame entirely on the Welsh, what it must be like to be perfect and faultless like the Scottish and the Irish, oh well we can but dream.

LordDowlais wrote: what it must be like to be perfect and faultless like the Scottish and the Irish, oh well we can but dream.

Hopefully, one day they'll get a chance to create the perfect league on their own.

LordDowlais wrote:I have to laugh at some of the Irish excuses on this thread, comparing single players and how many times they have played, but the facts speak for themselves, the IRFU prioritised Europe over their own league, why the Irish on here are denying this is beyond me, they all seem happy to blame everything on the Welsh, then they are saying with a sarcastic tone that the Welsh fans would all turn out for the Irish internationals, but this debate is about marketing our league, and because the IRFU did not take the league as serious as it did Europe over the years, sponsors do not see it as a marketable franchise.

I am not saying that this is the only reason though, I am saying it is part of the reason, along with our in-fighting, and other reasons from other unions, but for what ever reason the Irish and a few Scottish on here want to plant the blame entirely on the Welsh, what it must be like to be perfect and faultless like the Scottish and the Irish, oh well we can but dream.

Oh the irony

Not so much that we are happy top blame the Welsh. More that when you point a finger of blame, three point back.

LordDowlais wrote:I have to laugh at some of the Irish excuses on this thread, comparing single players and how many times they have played, but the facts speak for themselves, the IRFU prioritised Europe over their own league, why the Irish on here are denying this is beyond me, they all seem happy to blame everything on the Welsh, then they are saying with a sarcastic tone that the Welsh fans would all turn out for the Irish internationals, but this debate is about marketing our league, and because the IRFU did not take the league as serious as it did Europe over the years, sponsors do not see it as a marketable franchise.

I am not saying that this is the only reason though, I am saying it is part of the reason, along with our in-fighting, and other reasons from other unions, but for what ever reason the Irish and a few Scottish on here want to plant the blame entirely on the Welsh, what it must be like to be perfect and faultless like the Scottish and the Irish, oh well we can but dream.

Because its not the IRFU its individual provinces that make those calls, if Welsh regions could progress in the HC or ERCC then they'd do the same. Its an approach used by the French and English teams too just like Clermont and Toulon did at the weekend

LordDowlais wrote:I have to laugh at some of the Irish excuses on this thread, comparing single players and how many times they have played, but the facts speak for themselves, the IRFU prioritised Europe over their own league, why the Irish on here are denying this is beyond me, they all seem happy to blame everything on the Welsh, then they are saying with a sarcastic tone that the Welsh fans would all turn out for the Irish internationals, but this debate is about marketing our league, and because the IRFU did not take the league as serious as it did Europe over the years, sponsors do not see it as a marketable franchise.

I am not saying that this is the only reason though, I am saying it is part of the reason, along with our in-fighting, and other reasons from other unions, but for what ever reason the Irish and a few Scottish on here want to plant the blame entirely on the Welsh, what it must be like to be perfect and faultless like the Scottish and the Irish, oh well we can but dream.

I think the reason the league isn't marketable is the fact that there are 12.5 million people in Celtic nations and 60 Million in England. Therefore there is 5 times the amount of people to sell the product to.  Also there is more money in England than elsewhere, Londoners were  27.7% richer than the average UK person in 2012, so if you think that London only sustains four/five professional rugby teams with a population of roughly 10 million who are richer than the rest of the UK then you get the reasons why the Aviva Premiership is worth more.
TV companies work to get the best price for the things that most of their audience want to watch in order to advertisers to pay more and subscribers to accept higher prices, hence why most of the money for the SPL is for the Old Firm alone, therefore BT knows that the English league has a potential fanbase of 60 million English people including 10 million of the Richest in the country whereas Sky knows that it has only 12 Million people to cater for  and it shares the rights with the BBC and S4C etc. so of course the value of the  Pro12 will be lower than the Aviva and the Top14. The way to work against that is to ensure the top players stay in the league and that it, over time, becomes a potential destination for the top players that people watch in Super Rugby like Dan Carter rather than Ben Atiga. Super Rugby has a big fanbase in England because of the quality on show , if you look at it from an economic perspective you can therefore put some of the blame on the Welsh and Scottish players as they seem more inclined to leave the league than the Irish, however that hasn't damaged their chances of winning the league as Welsh and Scottish teams regularly reach the play-offs so you really have to accept that the Irish don't always play their best players. But why should they? In an era where players seem to be injured moe often than not and player welfare is becoming a bigger issue it doesn't seem right to criticise the Irish for resting their players. The truth is a lot of the time for a variety of reasons the top celtic players aren't playing often in the Celtic league, also the foreign signings aren't often the big names. If you played a team of non-celtic players playing in the Celtic League against Celtic Players playing outside the league I know who I'd back.

So rather than sit around pointing fingers at nations as a whole in relation to a club competition it's probably best to look at the statistics which seem to speak for themselves, if it was merely the fault of the Welsh or the Scottish or the Irish, why does the Six Nations work commercially?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

3 leagues Fly, this isn't internationals.

We won't go over all this in detail again, 7&1/2.  This is survival of rugby in the Nations - not three Leagues.  You only have to look at all the LOVE on this site between the Welsh and Irish to realise our League is a multi-National one. We ain't in the League together, we're in it for our own National rugby interests - as would AP sides if they were connected to a Franglo League.

Those facts can't be made different just by trying to rethink a truth.  The truth is that AP is a National League.  Top14 is a National League.  And Pro12 is a Multi-National League.  They are different.  It's a fact.  All the benefits accruing out of six auto places each for English and French rugby goes directly into those specific Rugby nations - and that DOES travel down to affect International and travels up to support International.  English rugby benefits from six entries on a national level and into National teams - same for France.

You two lost nothing in the NEW Way - the others Did.  That's all that matters.

marty2086 wrote:Its an approach used by the French and English teams too just like Clermont and Toulon did at the weekend

We are not talking about their leagues though are we ? We are talking about getting the best deal we can for OUR league, and the other leagues dwarf what we are getting. People on here are saying we do not get as much as the others because of us Welsh squabbling with each other all the time, when that's only part of the truth, it is NOT all down to us Welsh, perhaps if other unions changed how they treated the league then perhaps we would get more bang for our buck, but it is very unfair to lay the blame at the feet of the Welsh. Perhaps if the Irish did not prioritise Europe over the league then we would have more sponsors willing to put money into it.

I get that Fly. Your league had more entrants and losing it is a kick in the teeth but if you're setting up a comp with 3 leagues you wouldn't start by giving bias to 1 of them. Internationals are separate try not to cloud the issue as this is the sticking point. Saracens main priority is Saracens not England, Toulon are bothered about Toulon not France. This is club rugby. Anyway like you said all been trawled over and this is about the clubs league.

What I find odd is that Welsh fans have grumblings about a league that they're not doing very well in, that's not working out for them, and that they struggle to attract fans to. This is tarnishing the league, apparently. The Irish have a number of similar grumblings about the new Premier Europ Comp, how it's not working out for them, how they'd make some changes to better suit them (or not make the recent changes in the first place), yet this grumbling is somehow seen as different? I don't see the Welsh, Scottish or Italians with similar complaints about the comp. Surely that bellyaching from Irish fans will 'tarnish the league' (the 606 catch phrase of the week) and damage it from the point of view of potential sponsors too? For shame.

If something is not working out for you then I think it's right to discuss, debate, analyse, suggest ideas for a way forward for your own business/league/cup interests. But everyone should be afforded the right to do it. For the Welsh its the Pro12, for the Irish it's the Euro Comp. Next week it might be something different...

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor?

But this behaviour is fine right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4599583.stm

Well, they got this wrong:

The Welsh authorities believe an Anglo-Welsh cup can be fitted into the fixture list early in the season and that it will be a big money spinner.

Did the promised massive crowds turn up for the cup between all those traditional rivals?

I agree with Griff on this. SecretFly suggested that we all talk about the positive things in our league, and what we could do to make it better, and I agreed with him, but I said to do that we all need to look in house and accept where we ALL have gone wrong, but only us Welsh are admitting anything at the moment, the Irish and the Scottish on this debate still think they have done nothing wrong, ever. It makes you wonder doesn't it ?

Sin é wrote:Did the promised massive crowds turn up for the cup between all those traditional rivals?

Yes they did, in their droves, and we had sell out double headers at the MS for the semi finals and a sell out at Twickenham for the final, I went to the final when Blues beat Gloucester by 50pts what a day that was.

To be honest Lord I don't think they have done anything 'wrong'. And I've personally never blamed any other nation for our own inability to grow Pro12 rugby in Wales. But I do get annoyed when our suggestions for change are met aggressively. Rugby it would seem is hunky dory in Scotland and Ireland so should we in Wales just carry on, maintain the status quo, until our 4 rugby businesses are bankrupt. Or do we try to find a way of changing and evolving? It's very difficult to change when your partners are content with their lot as change will affect them. I get that, and I sympathise. But if they want a strong Pro12 then something drastic is going to have to happen with the Welsh and that's bound to affect the Irish and Scottish in some way too. Will they be willing to accept that knock-on effect though?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Did the promised massive crowds turn up for the cup between all those traditional rivals?

Yes they did, in their droves, and we had  sell out double headers at the MS for the semi finals and a sell out at Twickenham for the final, I went to the final when Blues beat Gloucester by 50pts what a day that was.

Yes, that was great. Unfortunately since then it's become a development competition so time to knock it on the head IMO.

Griff wrote:To be honest Lord I don't think they have done anything 'wrong'. And I've personally never blamed any other nation for our own inability to grow Pro12 rugby in Wales. But I do get annoyed when our suggestions for change are met aggressively. Rugby it would seem is hunky dory in Scotland and Ireland so should we in Wales just carry on, maintain the status quo, until our 4 rugby businesses are bankrupt. Or do we try to find a way of changing and evolving? It's very difficult to change when your partners are content with their lot as change will affect them. I get that, and I sympathise. But if they want a strong Pro12 then something drastic is going to have to happen with the Welsh and that's bound to affect the Irish and Scottish in some way too. Will they be willing to accept that knock-on effect though?

Yes Griff, I agree, but what I do not like is everyone else blaming the Welsh when they are not so perfect themselves, if the Irish want to prioritise Europe over the league and rest there CC players, then fine, thats up to them, if the SRU are happy to fill Edinburgh full of time serving players then that up to them as well, and if the Italians are happy being at the bottom of the league every season, then hey, thats their weekend, but to put the failings of the league squarely at the feet of the Welsh is unfair. If everybody made a concerted effort, then we would all get more bang for our buck.