Regional A teams

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It looks like the superclubs have now hijacked the B&I Cup for themselves now that the LV is over.

Richard Holland is about as slimy as you get. Look at the email he sent. What a tool.

My ex from Caerau is giving my grief again and I have decided I am definitely never going out with a Kaaaidiff girl again. They are all nuts mun

There might be a U turn on deciding who is playing in the B&I cup from Wales.

Welsh rugby chiefs have put off making a decision on the future of the British and Irish Cup and the Principality Premiership.

The directors of the WRU addressed both matters at a meeting of its full board today.

But, after taking advice from the governing body’s officers, decided to give more time so further investigations and another attempt at brokering peace between warring outfits Cardiff Blues and Pontypridd can take place.

The board is expected to reconvene next Wednesday, when it is hoped it will be in a position to rule on the thorny subjects.

Proposals had been on the table to change the nature of the four teams representing Wales in next season’s cross-border B & I Cup and to consider expanding the Premiership from 12 to 14, 15 or 16 clubs.

It was the former plan that caused the greatest controversy with Premiership champions Pontypridd vehemently opposed to the prospect of Regional A teams replacing club sides in the tournament, which provides a stepping stone between the semi-pro and professional game.

Ponty chief executive Steve Reardon accused the regions of a ‘conspiracy’ and of being ‘downright disrespectful’, claiming the Sardis Road club had an ‘undeniable argument’ to remain in the tournament.

They have reached the quarter-finals and semi-finals of the event in the past and taken large numbers of supporters to away games as well as drawing sizeable crowds for cross-border clashes.

Wales have had one finalist in the B & I Cup, village club Cross Keys, who were beaten by the A team of twice European Cup holders Munster in Cork a few years ago.

Keys represented the Dragons’ region, Aberavon the Ospreys, Carmarthen Quins the Scarlets and Pontypridd the Blues in last season’s B & I tournament.

But Pontypridd have a fractious relationship with power-brokers at the Cardiff Arms Park and have gone as far as to turn down the chance of staging first team regional matches at Sardis Road.

Now they are facing a new challenge on their doorstep with multi-millionaire Sir Stan Thomas, the brother of Blues chairman Peter Thomas, behind an ambitious project to propel Championship club Merthyr into the Premiership.

It’s believed Sir Stan is considering offering Ponty favourite and former coach Dale McIntosh - who has left his post as assistant at the Blues following the appointment of Danny Wilson as head man - the position of forwards guru at the Ironmen.

Sources have also claimed behind-closed-doors peace talks have taken place between the Blues and Pontypridd, though they failed to solve their differences with the meeting breaking up with them “agreeing to disagree”,

However, Ponty’s outcry against the plans for Regional A sides to take part in next term’s B & I Cup is understood to have resulted in a compromise being put forward with three of the four regions – Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets – preferring those teams to be called Premiership Select XVs.

So you would, for example, have a Scarlet Premiership Select team taking on the likes of Bristol or Leinster A.

The select sides would be made up the cream of the Premiership players from each region, including a number of regionally contracted players who turn out regularly at semi-pro level, which give them more chance of competing with the full-time professionals employed by the Irish provinces and English Championship club.

Significantly, all four regions have given their backing to the project. It’s likely both the regions and the Premiership clubs would have an input on the coaching front, with team colours and precise names to be decided.

If the WRU do opt to enter four Premiership Select sides in the B & I Cup, then the likelihood is that the Premiership clubs would compete in a separate cup competition on those weekends.

It’s felt that would be a better option than playing league fixtures as some clubs would be hit harder than others by B & I Cup call ups.

The clubs are open-minded about an expanding the Premiership but they want WRU rules on admission to the league adhered to.

As it stands, three Championship clubs – second-placed finishers Swansea, fourth-placed RGC and fifth-placed Pontypool – had the required A licence in place by the WRU-imposed deadline of August last year and which would enable them to take up a place in the Premiership.

But Championship winners Bargoed and ambitious Merthyr, who came third, do not have a licence, which is handed out when clubs meet certain standards in terms of facilities and other issues.

Sir Stan Thomas insists the ambitious Championship club will have all the required facilities in place at The Wern to join the Premiership, if it is expanded for next season.

However, should they be promoted at the expense of, for example, Pontypool, it could result in legal action being taken against the governing body.

LordDowlais wrote:However, Ponty’s outcry against the plans for Regional A sides to take part in next term’s B & I Cup is understood to have resulted in a compromise being put forward with three of the four regions – Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets – preferring those teams to be called Premiership Select XVs.

So for three of the four regions, the it is the same as it has been for the last few seasons. One team from the region entering, and fielding the best of the premiership level players (regional fringe players) from around the region. So for three of the four regions there is no problems what so ever.

SS,

Have they all been fielding the best of the premiership in their area though?

bedfordwelsh wrote:SS,

Have they all been fielding the best of the premiership in their area though?  

That is questionable, as generally the very best of the prem lads in their area have been playing in the LV= for the region (when the games are on the same weekends). This season with no LV= will be different I guess.

Wasn't there a bit of fuss with Quins dropping in a load of Scarlets fringe players or something like that.

I think Keys and would guess Ponty played their own players. If you put all the arguing aside (hard I know) but I like the idea of a Prem XV from individual Regions but they would have to have a bit of time together first.

Otherwise just chucking them together a few days before just wouldn't work and as I mentioned earlier in thread that mish mash side wouldn't do any better than a team who had been playing together regularly.

Keys didn't really play their own players last season.

Ponty had Filise and Knoyle playing for them.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Ponty had Filise and Knoyle playing for them.

2 Internationals. Damn those Blues, they never do ANYTHING for Pontypridd rugby.

Bedford, I know there were a few players when From Carm Quins refused to play for Llanelli rfc year before last (Cubby was one!) but last season the Quins only had the likes of Jordan and McCusker parachuted in, but that was when both were totally out of favour with Pivac and there was talk of both leaving at the end of the season. Quins also fielded Llanelli's third/fourth choice scrum half (a work mate of mine) at the same time. So it wasn't really a star packed team.

This season with no LV=, you have to expect the B&I sides to feature a fair few fringe players from a the regions 3/4/5th choice players or on the start of their return from injury.

Bumped into deepthroat today. AKA my Cardiff source.
Bloos/WRU aren't at all happy with Ponty, was the impression I got. Spose that's stating the bleeding obvious, but there we are.
No details i'm afraid. I really should pin him down next time and demand specific info, warts an orl.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Ponty had Filise and Knoyle playing for them.

2 Internationals. Damn those Blues, they never do ANYTHING for Pontypridd rugby.

Mightily cheesed off with the Cardiff/Ponty thing. I'll wager the vast majority of supporters on both sides would agree. Been banging on for years. Sort it once and for all I say.

Risca Rev wrote:Keys didn't really play their own players last season.

I'm even more confused now.
Not sure who's playing against who and for what.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Ponty had Filise and Knoyle playing for them.

2 Internationals. Damn those Blues, they never do ANYTHING for Pontypridd rugby.

Mightily cheesed off with the Cardiff/Ponty thing. I'll wager the vast majority of supporters on both sides would agree. Been banging on for years. Sort it once and for all I say.

there are only two things which will stop the animosity.

1. Blues are completely rebranded dropping Cardiff from name and colours

2. The WRU offer fixed term franchises for pro teams in Wales - in effect giving any other club/region/entity the opportunity to apply - and subject to meeting minimum criteria - and secure pro rugby

GavinDragon wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Ponty had Filise and Knoyle playing for them.

2 Internationals. Damn those Blues, they never do ANYTHING for Pontypridd rugby.

Mightily cheesed off with the Cardiff/Ponty thing. I'll wager the vast majority of supporters on both sides would agree. Been banging on for years. Sort it once and for all I say.

there are only two things which will stop the animosity.

1. Blues are completely rebranded dropping Cardiff from name and colours

2. The WRU offer fixed term franchises for pro teams in Wales - in effect giving any other club/region/entity the opportunity to apply - and subject to meeting minimum criteria - and secure pro rugby

A bit of that is good though isn't it?
As for your points, one and two...

Cardiff Dave wrote:Bloos/WRU aren't at all happy with Ponty

I appreciate Cardiff don't like Ponty as we won't bow down to the Pieman but why would the WRU have any issues with Ponty?

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Bloos/WRU aren't at all happy with Ponty

I appreciate Cardiff don't like Ponty as we won't bow down to the Pieman but why would the WRU have any issues with Ponty?

Probably because it has been a decade, and there has been no progress with Ponty being integrated into the region. And whether the Blues want Ponty or not, they do make the right noises in the press (Phil Davies banged on about embracing the region etc), where as Ponty seem to make the wrong noises in the press.

the trouble is defining 'embracing the region' to Cardiff that means player pathways, sending players to feeder clubs and doing events in the regional community.

To Ponty it means a re-brand of Cardiff Blues and games played away from Arms Park

GavinDragon wrote:the trouble is defining 'embracing the region' to Cardiff that means player pathways, sending players to feeder clubs and doing events in the regional community.

To Ponty it means a re-brand of Cardiff Blues and games played away from Arms Park

I totally agree the whole 'embracing the region' thing is pretty subjective. And lets face it, with the exception of the Ospreys (not sure why), we all get accused from people outside of the region for not doing our bit to embrace the region properly. And there are always different reasons for why we are not doing it.

However, in simple terms, the Blues are giving out the impression via sound bites etc, that they are attempting to do things, where as the noises we all hear from Ponty (official and un-official) tend to be the opposite. Whether this is the case in their actions or not may be different, but that would be a pretty good reason for the WRU to be miffed with Ponty.

GavinDragon wrote:

2. The WRU offer fixed term franchises for pro teams in Wales - in effect giving any other club/region/entity the opportunity to apply - and subject to meeting minimum criteria - and secure pro rugby

What would your "minimum criteria" be?

facilities, business plan, sponsorship, player development to start with.

GavinDragon wrote:facilities, business plan, sponsorship, player development to start with.

Nobody will come close to the regions on any of those things. Not in the same ball park.

CN one benefactor with deep enough pockets and they could be - it is the only thing that has kept the Blues and Dragons going all this time

anyway if you give people the opprtunity and they can't make the grade then that is their problem - however not giving them the opportunity, that is where it is wrong.

What was to happen if lets say Merthyr were an appropriate option for pro rugby?

Say a big influx of money, new facilities and on pitch success etc...

all hypothetical but why if you are the WRU and you are pumping money into a team with the sole purpose (from your perspective) of developing players for the national side would you not want to consider other options if they were available?

GavinDragon wrote:all hypothetical but why if you are the WRU and you are pumping money into a team with the sole purpose (from your perspective) of developing players for the national side would you not want to consider other options if they were available?

Because the money is better spent concentrated on development streams already in place. I really don't think people understand how much money it would take for a club like Merthyr, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale etc to get up to speed professionally on a par with the regions, in terms of player base, fan base, training facilities, infrastructure, employees, match day arrangemets, safety, coaching staff etc etc etc

yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:all hypothetical but why if you are the WRU and you are pumping money into a team with the sole purpose (from your perspective) of developing players for the national side would you not want to consider other options if they were available?

Because the money is better spent concentrated on development streams already in place. I really don't think people understand how much money it would take for a club like Merthyr, Pontypridd, Ebbw Vale etc to get up to speed professionally on a par with the regions, in terms of player base, fan base, training facilities, infrastructure, employees, match day arrangemets, safety, coaching staff etc etc etc

About as much as the average Toulon player earns...

I'm sorry I am joking!!!

I understand it isn't a possibility yet, but lets say the investment in Merthyr gets to the point where they have some on field success, they develop their facilities etc, and have developed a business plan in which they guarentee X amount of years investment before the club is funded independantly, could the WRU really pass that up?

GavinDragon wrote:yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

So your saying the Dragon, Blues, and Scarlets should all be open to relegation?

Fanster wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

So your saying the Dragon, Blues, and Scarlets should all be open to relegation?

Why are the Ospreys not in the same category?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Fanster wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

So your saying the Dragon, Blues, and Scarlets should all be open to relegation?

Why are the Ospreys not in the same category?

Well they may well be, I was just asking the question. Although off the top of my head, Neath colours playing in a differing venue in Swansea to either club that actually collaberated unlike the others, who dual named the team etc...

Fanster wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Fanster wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

So your saying the Dragon, Blues, and Scarlets should all be open to relegation?

Why are the Ospreys not in the same category?

Well they may well be, I was just asking the question. Although off the top of my head, Neath colours playing in a differing venue in Swansea to either club that actually collaberated unlike the others, who dual named the team etc...

Sorry, but what has that got to do with anything? If your going to have a system where your Pro sides are on a licence to play with the big boys, then all of the teams need to be in the same boat, or you have the same stuff happening as we are having now.

Fanster wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

So your saying the Dragon, Blues, and Scarlets should all be open to relegation?

If they were to revert to Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli then yes I think they should be. And tbh the team most at threat would be my team but at least it would be a fairer system

GavinDragon wrote:

Fanster wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

So your saying the Dragon, Blues, and Scarlets should all be open to relegation?

If they were to revert to Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli then yes I think they should be.

Not sure about the Dragons, as the are still NGD (for now), but why would the Scarlets (who have changed their name and stadium) want to revert to being Llanelli if that would mean they would be up for relegation?

Also seeing as the Dragons and Scarlets are pulling in fans from around their regional boundaries etc, it wouldn't really make any sense to revert to pre-regional names, and create even more 'disenfranchised' fans.

What do Dragons have to do to become a "real region"?

I'll be honest, I find the idea of this meritocracy laughable too. How is a team like Ponty (I'll use them as they're top of the tree currently) going to step up to the fitness levels for a start?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:

Fanster wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:yes and those teams in place should also concentrate on better representing those areas their pro side have ursurped!

You either be a real region and represent all areas or you be a superclub and be open to "relegation" to semi pro rugby.

You can't have your cake of being a pro side with massive WRU funding and then also eat it by not representing the geographical region that ensured (and continues to ensure) your pro status.

And as for how much money it woudl take - millions i imagine - and may never ever happen but if we are going to drop the regional pretence in Wales then there needs to be a mechanism through which other teams/entities have the opportunity to make the grade

So your saying the Dragon, Blues, and Scarlets should all be open to relegation?

If they were to revert to Newport, Cardiff and Llanelli then yes I think they should be.

Not sure about the Dragons, as the are still NGD (for now), but why would the Scarlets (who have changed their name and stadium) want to revert to being Llanelli if that would mean they would be up for relegation?

Also seeing as the Dragons and Scarlets are pulling in fans from around their regional boundaries etc, it wouldn't really make any sense to revert to pre-regional names, and create even more 'disenfranchised' fans.

I'm sorry, and I don't want to get back into the Llanelli thing, but changed name and changed stadiums? Come on, they ditched the official Llanelli and stuck with the unofficial Llanelli, and built another Stradey a little up the road with money they didn't have. That doesn't compare to the comprimises Swansea and Neath fans endured.

I'm not sure why the Dragons, Blues or Scarlets would have to revert to what they already are, 'regions' based upon club history. I know all regions do things in their region to help rugby, but the polish on the car is clearly Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (+ friends), surely people from outside these towns and cities understands that?

Risca Rev wrote:What do Dragons have to do to become a "real region"?

That is the real question, and there are 2 answers I think, one realistically and one fantastically, although I'm not sure any realistic methods would be sufficient.

Fanster wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:What do Dragons have to do to become a "real region"?

That is the real question, and there are 2 answers I think, one realistically and one fantastically, although I'm not sure any realistic methods would be sufficient.

Honestly - my opinion only - I would like to see us drop Newport from the name and also take a few games to EXP.

However can completely understand why NRFC diehards who see their club as financing the NGD's will never allow it.

Either way I am tired of the fudge

Fanster wrote:I'm not sure why the Dragons, Blues or Scarlets would have to revert to what they already are, 'regions' based upon club history. I know all regions do things in their region to help rugby, but the polish on the car is clearly Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (+ friends), surely people from outside these towns and cities understands that?

I think you really need to get out and about amongst these faux regions that you are claiming. Mix with the people, see what is getting done and what isn't, and then maybe, just maybe you will have a clue about what you are posting. Because right now your looking like someone who has rad a few little snippets of information here and there, and are trying to tell people in the know that they know nothing!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Fanster wrote:I'm not sure why the Dragons, Blues or Scarlets would have to revert to what they already are, 'regions' based upon club history. I know all regions do things in their region to help rugby, but the polish on the car is clearly Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (+ friends), surely people from outside these towns and cities understands that?

I think you really need to get out and about amongst these faux regions that you are claiming.  Mix with the people, see what is getting done and what isn't, and then maybe, just maybe you will have a clue about what you are posting.  Because right now your looking like someone who has rad a few little snippets of information here and there, and are trying to tell people in the know that they know nothing!

:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Fanster wrote:I'm not sure why the Dragons, Blues or Scarlets would have to revert to what they already are, 'regions' based upon club history. I know all regions do things in their region to help rugby, but the polish on the car is clearly Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (+ friends), surely people from outside these towns and cities understands that?

I think you really need to get out and about amongst these faux regions that you are claiming.  Mix with the people, see what is getting done and what isn't, and then maybe, just maybe you will have a clue about what you are posting.  Because right now your looking like someone who has rad a few little snippets of information here and there, and are trying to tell people in the know that they know nothing!

Also this notion that purely because a team play in one ground that they don't represent the people is horse muck.

For god sake Wales play in Cardiff, and to my recollection have never played an international game in West Wales (and only trained here once during Nigel Davies' reign of one game), when was the last time they played up north too? They spend more time in Qatar, and Poland than they do around their own country. Should they just be honest and call themselves Cardiff, as that is pretty much all they are going by your argument.

I find the name thing neither here nor there to be honest. I know what gets shouted on the terrace and that's all that matters.

As much as I'd be on board with taking games to other grounds, is it worth it really when you lose so much on facilities. If you take that Northampton game we took to EXP, I'd wager they took a huge hit on hospitality income and the vast majority of people got soaked. At least on my usual terrace I stay pretty dry.

Risca Rev wrote:I find the name thing neither here nor there to be honest. I know what gets shouted on the terrace and that's all that matters.

As much as I'd be on board with taking games to other grounds, is it worth it really when you lose so much on facilities. If you take that Northampton game we took to EXP, I'd wager they took a huge hit on hospitality income and the vast majority of people got soaked. At least on my usual terrace I stay pretty dry.

yes I got soaked too - which is why I advocate for a few games and not half of all fixtures

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Fanster wrote:I'm not sure why the Dragons, Blues or Scarlets would have to revert to what they already are, 'regions' based upon club history. I know all regions do things in their region to help rugby, but the polish on the car is clearly Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (+ friends), surely people from outside these towns and cities understands that?

I think you really need to get out and about amongst these faux regions that you are claiming.  Mix with the people, see what is getting done and what isn't, and then maybe, just maybe you will have a clue about what you are posting.  Because right now your looking like someone who has rad a few little snippets of information here and there, and are trying to tell people in the know that they know nothing!

I think this is extremlely insulting and patronising for no reason, you knwo 2 things about me, and that was that I was brought up in London and am Welsh. You don't know where my family is from, or is, you don't know how ofter I've been to Wales, or how many times I've moved there and away again, you know nothing yet tell me my comments are of an outsider who has merely read an article, how dare you.

I have dipped my toe into regional rugby here and there, and as I mentioned in previous threads always try to follow all the regions and Welsh rugby whenever possible, sometimes at great cost to myself, and with what can only be described as poor travelling support at times!

I have friend from all over, some love club rugby some hate it, but its clear to see from anyone with 2 eyes open is that every region has a larger than it should group of those who have fallen from club rugby due to numerous reasons.

People bicker about names, strips, regional outlines, why certain towns were allowed regional status at all etc.. So when a club such as Cardiff Blues keep the name, and then start releasing strips that are incredibly similar to the old blue and black striped kit you can't really argue they are not looking like a representitive Cardiff side. Same can easily be said of Newport or LLanelli, and moreso has been said by plenty of people!

Maybe if you left LLanelli once in a while and saw the outside world you would understand what I mean?

Fanster wrote:Maybe if you left LLanelli once in a while and saw the outside world you would understand what I mean?

Point proven my friend, game set and match.

To be fair the very fact that ScarletSpiderman has the internet and knows how to use it...is proof that he is neither from or living in Llanelli

Steffan wrote:To be fair the very fact that ScarletSpiderman has the internet and knows how to use it...is proof that he is neither from or living in Llanelli