Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

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England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Saint wrote:No Francis? Reports are stating that he is to be named in the Wales squad (again). I hope he cap him this time, behind Lee he will be our only decent option at TH.

Good luck to the lad.

LondonTiger wrote:...First reason for 50 is that supposedly IRBRW have asked for 50 man provisional squads - maybe for marketing purposes, maybe OOC drug testing?..

Drugs and insurance, I think.

Looks like we've all forgotten the IRB specified 50 man preliminary squads 4 years ago too (I certainly had).

LondonTiger wrote:

The Saint wrote:No Francis? Reports are stating that he is to be named in the Wales squad (again). I hope he cap him this time, behind Lee he will be our only decent option at TH.

Good luck to the lad.

Aye, not our preferred method of promotion but everyone is at it these days so why not. Good THs are evidently still a rarity in Wales so he'll be knocking around with us for a while if he makes it.

bluestonevedder wrote:Every winger will have their downfall, whether it is rubbish defence, poor strike rate, crabbing across the pitch, or blowing the occasional overlap. I really don't think there's anything like the complete modern-day winger. If there was, the closet payer to it is Savea. It's what else they bring to the table that counts for them. 

Of course this entire conversation is entirely subjective since we all have our preferences, but I just feel May adds something that others don't. His strike rate doesn't necessarily grab your attention, but he's created a number of tries, and really is a dangerous runner from anywhere on the pitch. Personally, I would have loved to see what he could have done against France in the Six nations. That open game plan was designed for a player like him. I reckon May on the bench would be a lethal weapon. 

Absolutely no disrespect to Ashton, who I reckon has improved immeasurably this season. Yes, his kick chasing is very good beshocked, but May's chase against Wales was spot on, and it was so noticeable in the successive games when he was dropped.

Unless your called Savea

I do agree with what your saying though Eddie

Talking about tackling...I don't believe Wade's tackling is the issue...its his positioning.

Watson's tackling isn't great neither is Ashton.

May has been chastised for 1 missed tackle.

Now im not here defending May saying he should be starter. I believe (as Eddie mentioned above) that we have no complete wingers. They are all work in progresses and have strengths and weaknesses. I guess the question is who can become the nearest to complete (and who fits best in the current set up)...and that's difficult to judge.

no 7 & 1/2 you say Ashton is the worst defender. Based on what?

Ashton has taken on some of the best sides this season and he's held his own in defence. Did a try saving tackle vs Clermont in the semi final.

Londontiger perhaps but Ashton was recently dropped for struggling defensively against the best side in the world - NZ. The likes of Eastmond,Tuilagi and Yarde all struggled too but Ashton's defence was the only one highlighted.

Ashton's best form for England was with Flood at 10, perhaps with Ford at 10, Ashton might well be more useful, also if Ashton is allowed to utilise his natural game.

I doubt it's a coincidence that Ashton has struggled under Lancaster.

Lostinwales Italy and Edinburgh..... two of the best sides in the 6 nations and European rugby respectively.....

Oh and you're forgetting that May had a very poor 6 nations in 2014.

May got dropped by Lancaster because he's not been good enough for England.

Some poor positioning, tends to drop off tackles easily. Goes for big hits quite a lot which are risky as hell. His decision making for me is shaky as he doesn't trust his technique. The rest of of the wingers all have issues but Ashton is the worst for me. Can't remember his try saving tackle against Clermont though I did watch the game. He did do that stupid no arms tackle in one of your games though which is a brainless thing that could cost a team a lot; can't remember which game.

Just a point on your points against May, Ashton has been poor for England for a while and has been dropped by Lancaster because he's not been good enough for England.

no 7 & 1/2 some fair points, Ashton still needs work on his technique but he's not exactly been torn apart by opposition. Perhaps it helps that he plays in a team with players he is comfortable with. He trusts his team mates to make the tackles.

That might have been the try saving tackle.

How many times has Ashton played for England in the last two years?

I think only in this season's 6 nations have the wingers been good for England but even then Watson and May missed tackles.

Your point about Ashton is fair - he's not been great for England but I feel he deserves one more chance. Also I want to see what he could do with the likes of Ford and Joseph in a backline.

And I think that reflects what I feel about Ashton, but it must be close to his last chance.

So putting it out there....who do you guys think can become as complete a winger as possible out of our current ones...or do you think we have another coming through who will be that.

And will Watson ultimately become a FB

Nowell.

I would think only three wingers will be in the final 31 man squad.  Thus perhaps Watson, Nowell and one other.  Of those in the 50 man squad, I would probably go for May though Yarde's form a year or so back was good.

no 7 & 1/2 I agree with you. I have changed my tune on Nowell because he has improved his attacking game and has scored tries this season.

When is the final 31 squad picked cb?

Apparently August 31 is the deadline

Nowell has also looked good in the centres for the Chiefs. He's got good distribution and seems to play with his head up.

I wonder whether some of our backs are in danger of being too 'utility'.

Nowell is certainly a complete rugby player, his body shape means that he rucks like a flanker and he can certainly defend! He lines up at 10 on opposition set piece ball a position quite often occupied by flankers across the board. Although Exeter play a very expansive game they never have really used wingers as finishers! Highlighted by Ian Whitten and Matt Jess being first choice this season even though they had Tom James and Fetu Vainikolo in the squad who are much more accomplished finishers and flair players.

In fact Exeter and England pretty much line up exactly the same in the backs.

Steenson ( Ford )
Jess ( Watson )
Hill ( Barrit )
Slade ( Joseph ) Exeter go for a kicking game here.
Whitten ( Nowell )
Nowell ( Brown )

it looks like Lancaster wants a bit more flair from his forwards which is why Ewers and Waldrom have been left out! They offer and immense power game but it looks like Lancaster wants forwards who are a bit lighter on foot.

Bambam wow that sounds quite late.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Rugby_World_Cup_warm-up_matches

That means the squad would be announced after the two warm up games vs France but before the Ireland one.

Is it just me who thinks it is weird that the warm up games seem to be NH vs NH, SH vs SH?

I think England's warm up games are good but seems odd that England aren't taking on Argentina or Samoa for example.

beshocked, not sure I'd want to play Samoa in a 'friendly' just before the World Cup!

It's pretty standard to play NH v NH just before the World Cup though, isn't it?

In 2007 England played South Africa before the World Cup. It was around this time actually. Kevin Yates, Roy Winters starting. Jamie Noon on the wing?!

Funny that Mike Brown was full back and Abendanon on the bench.

Think that might have stopped England playing southern hemisphere teams before a world cup anyways.

Hmmm, that didn't exactly set them up well for the pool game vs SA did it?

Cyril you don't think France x 2 and Ireland are going to be physical encounters?

Why should it be the standard? To be honest I think England's warm up games are good but seems a shame there are no NH vs SH match ups.

All games are physical, of course. It was a bit of a joke

I'm not saying it should be the standard, I'm just saying that's the way it seems have become. Given that the 6 Nations sides are spread across separate groups helps of course (you rarely play against a side in the same group pre-tournament, although noting the SA game above).

Logisitics and when SH sides are in the right place for a NH World Cup (and vice versa) is also factored in.

MichaelT wrote:In 2007 England played South Africa before the World Cup. It was around this time actually. Kevin Yates, Roy Winters starting. Jamie Noon on the wing?!

Funny that Mike Brown was full back and Abendanon on the bench.

Think that might have stopped England playing southern hemisphere teams before a world cup anyways.

http://en.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/25445.html


Leicester and Wasps had played the HC final two weeks previously and were, among other first choice players, rested.

Cyril wrote:All games are physical, of course. It was a bit of a joke

I'm not saying it should be the standard, I'm just saying that's the way it seems have become. Given that the 6 Nations sides are spread across separate groups helps of course (you rarely play against a side in the same group pre-tournament, although noting the SA game above).

Logisitics and when SH sides are in the right place for a NH World Cup (and vice versa) is also factored in.

All games are physical but some teams are going to give you more of a challenge.

I expect England playing France x 2 and Ireland is better than playing Scotland x 2 and Italy for example in terms of intensity and physicality.

Perhaps but England plays the 6 nations every year. England don't play the likes of Argentina,Samoa,USA,Canada often.

LondonTiger wrote:

MichaelT wrote:In 2007 England played South Africa before the World Cup. It was around this time actually. Kevin Yates, Roy Winters starting. Jamie Noon on the wing?!

Funny that Mike Brown was full back and Abendanon on the bench.

Think that might have stopped England playing southern hemisphere teams before a world cup anyways.

http://en.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/25445.html


Leicester and Wasps had played the HC final two weeks previously and were, among other first choice players, rested.

So the farce of last years first NZ test is not a new thing and we have a history of doing it.

beshocked wrote:Perhaps but England plays the 6 nations every year. England don't play the likes of Argentina,Samoa,USA,Canada often.

England toured Argentina in 2013 (and have played them a decent number of time in the last decade) and played Samoa in the last AIs. I'm not sure Canada or USA would be particularly useful warm-up games (even taking into account the heavy rotation of players during these games).

I agree that we need variety but I would say it's more about playing sides with similar styles to those in your upcoming pool games from a 'usefulness' point of view. Having said that, England will be well-versed with the playing styles of both the Aussies and Wales so it's maybe more about getting players to the right level of intensity and match fitness. France and Ireland will be good for this as they are at a similar level to England, even if it does feel a bit same-old, same-old.

Given other fixtures (it's a very congested period) and geography there are only a certain number of sides that are both available and suitable to play during that window.

Didn't England play France twice just before 2003? Good omens...

Cyril it's not the same as every year though.

England will have played France 3 times this year in total.

Don't disagree about the usefulness - I am just saying there should be a collective effort from all NH and SH sides to have a bit more variety in the warm ups.

beshocked wrote:Cyril it's not the same as every year though.

England will have played France 3 times this year in total.

Don't disagree about the usefulness - I am just saying there should be a collective effort from all NH and SH sides to have a bit more variety in the warm ups.

I agree with that. Was it last year that England played NZ three matches on the bounce? I forget, but anyway, it would be much more useful for England to have played Oz, SA and NZ for example, like other teams did. England know already that on the odd occasion they can beat the All Blacks, so why try three times on the trot and maybe dent confidence? I'm not saying that England would have won the other matches I suggested either, but I reckon its better to get the measure of a variety of likely opponents than simply bashing away against just one.

Agreed Jimpy. Very true - especially as England were also weakened in the first match too. Also it was at the end of our season away from home.

Ashton was at his best with an in-form Flood running things at 10, even with the no-so-creative Tindall and Hape in the centre. I think he'd fit in well with the current England team and return to form playing off Ford and Joseph with Barrit in for some stability and leadership. He reads attacking moves better than any other England winger IMHO and has a knack of being in the right place at the right time.

fantastic weekend to view many of these 50 squad players. fringe players doing well so far (20mins into saints sarries) are strettle, itoje, corbs.

great weekends rugby

Banahan is doing for Bath. 2 try's so far.

majesticimperialman wrote:Banahan is doing for Bath. 2 try's so far.

and burgess pulled off…what are we to make of that

My team for the first warm-up game:

Marler, T. Youngs, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw (C), B. Vunipola, B. Youngs, Ford, May, Eastmond, Joseph, Nowell, Watson.
Cowan-Dickie, Corbisiero, Brookes, Itoje, Morgan, Care, Slade, Daly.

For the first warm-up game against France, I would love to see Ford, Eastmond and Joseph get a run-out. Let's put the Bath midfield together and see what they can do on the International stage. Also, let's see how they cope with Bastareud running at them all day, because if they can deal with his size they can deal with anyone's size. Hopefully, they can put to bed any concerns about their defence and get England playing some good attacking rugby. I'd possibly even have Watson at full-back, because if he can cover there Internationally then we won't need a second full-back.

Barritt and Brown would be in my World Cup squad and starting XV at the moment, so I would hold them off until the second test. Farrell as well is one we know we can rely on.

In the pack I've gone with what I believe is my strongest 8. And then on the bench I've put all my bolters on so I can have a look at them and, potentially, rule most of them out. I also want to see how Corbisiero and Morgan do back from injury, and want to look at Vunipola and Morgan in the same back row. Care would be playing for his place as his form has been a bit ropey.

Obviously with 50 names not everyone is going to play in the first two tests, but you would imagine all of the squad will need to have played a game, so Lancaster is going to have to make a number of decisions on the training park.

Farrell is someone we should be able to rely on, but to be honest I'd really like him to put together a couple of performances to show that. Past performances and reputation can only get you so far.

lostinwales wrote:Farrell is someone we should be able to rely on, but to be honest I'd really like him to put together a couple of performances to show that. Past performances and reputation can only get you so far.

I totaly agree with you there.

Infact past reputations should not count in my opinion. It is what they ( the players) are doing now that counts.

The way the Sarries and Bath players have played this week end, Lancaster is going to have a real headache sorting out who the best players are for the England 23.

Rewatching the Bath game Banahan can be a little disappointed at missing out on that squad.

yappysnap wrote:Rewatching the Bath game Banahan can be a little disappointed at missing out on that squad.

I think there is a big feeling that that ship has sailed. But if you did want a big lump at 12 who can offload/ giant winger you could do a lot worse

Yea I get that, it's just off though that guys like Strettle and Ashton have been picked but not him.

I'm not sure if Banahan will get another look-in but I was really pleased for him yesterday. Not just the tries, but that purple patch he had where he was plucking high balls out of the air and performing booming clearance kicks was great to see.

It must be great playing in that Bath backline!

yappysnap wrote:Yea I get that, it's just off though that guys like Strettle and Ashton have been picked but not him.

Both Bath wingers might feel a little unlucky. Banahan has had a good season but he was indifferent for a while. Austin Healey said on commentary that he could still be an England option, although he hasn't come good in time for World Cup consideration.

Rugby Fan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Yea I get that, it's just off though that guys like Strettle and Ashton have been picked but not him.

Both Bath wingers might feel a little unlucky. Banahan has had a good season but he was indifferent for a while. Austin Healey said on commentary that he could still be an England option, although he hasn't come good in time for World Cup consideration.

How has he not come good in time? He has been excellent all season.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Yea I get that, it's just off though that guys like Strettle and Ashton have been picked but not him.

Both Bath wingers might feel a little unlucky. Banahan has had a good season but he was indifferent for a while. Austin Healey said on commentary that he could still be an England option, although he hasn't come good in time for World Cup consideration.

How has he not come good in time? He has been excellent all season.

It wouldve been handy if hed come good 5 years ago really. Now hes only going to get a look in under the Nick Easter/ Danny Cipriani clause of no-one else being available and Lancaster having to eat his hat.

As it stands England have moved on from the days of wanting a big unit on the wings

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Banahan is doing for Bath. 2 try's so far.

and burgess pulled off…what are we to make of that

Tactical change.


What Burgess offers England (as he did Bath) is the opportunity to have a 6 2 split on the bench but also till have cover for the centers.
Im gradually warmin to the idea of him as a squad/bench option.

Everyone can see that Itoje has something about him, but I did wonder if his inclusion in this squad was just a self-fulfilling prophesy - SL name checked him at interview and was perhaps aware of that when it came to putting the extended squad together. However, he was very impressive against Saints. He's bulked up to my eye over this season, and I think he'll have a long international career at lock. For this WC I now think he might make the final squad as a utility back.

I think Banahan will be called up when the inevitable injuries happen. Whether he can make it into the final squad at this late stage I doubt.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So putting it out there....who do you guys think can become as complete a winger as possible out of our current ones...or do you think we have another coming through who will be that.

And will Watson ultimately become a FB

I think, in decreasing order of likelihood: Nowell, Yarde and May all have the potential to become 'complete' wingers. Nowell could play anywhere from 11-15 (at least at club level) in my view, which makes him a pretty complete back.

And yes Watson will end up at FB. I'd expect him to start there in the next 6 Nations, and I wouldn't rule out him playing there in the WC given Brown's lack of game-time. Nowell might have ended up focussing on FB, but with Watson specialising there at club level I think he'll generally play at 13 for Exeter (as Slade focusses on 10 and 12) and wing for England.

DaveM wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So putting it out there....who do you guys think can become as complete a winger as possible out of our current ones...or do you think we have another coming through who will be that.

And will Watson ultimately become a FB

I think, in decreasing order of likelihood: Nowell, Yarde and May all have the potential to become 'complete' wingers. Nowell could play anywhere from 11-15 (at least at club level) in my view, which makes him a pretty complete back.

And yes Watson will end up at FB. I'd expect him to start there in the next 6 Nations, and I wouldn't rule out him playing there in the WC given Brown's lack of game-time. Nowell might have ended up focussing on FB, but with Watson specialising there at club level I think he'll generally play at 13 for Exeter (as Slade focusses on 10 and 12) and wing for England.

I'd agree with most of that, but I think it would be a huge call to try Watson at fullback in the RWC. Brown's back in full training and while he will have a bit of fitness to make up, the one upside of a concussion layoff is that it allows time for any physical niggles to clear up.

I'd expect Brown to get game time in the warm ups, but even if he's not fully fit I can't see Watson playing FB except as backup to Goode. It would be a huge call to start an RWC game with an untried fullback, especially given the lack of caps in the backline.

Poorfour wrote:

I'd agree with most of that, but I think it would be a huge call to try Watson at fullback in the RWC. Brown's back in full training and while he will have a bit of fitness to make up, the one upside of a concussion layoff is that it allows time for any physical niggles to clear up.

I'd expect Brown to get game time in the warm ups, but even if he's not fully fit I can't see Watson playing FB except as backup to Goode. It would be a huge call to start an RWC game with an untried fullback, especially given the lack of caps in the backline.

You say untested, but he's first choice FB at probably the best side in English rugby. Ideally he'd have a year's worth of experience at 15 at international level, but he has at least played a bit at 14, and he's an amazing talent. I think he is destined to be regarded as a truly world class fullback, and I think he's ready to make that transition.

Goode is a good player, but I think Watson will be ahead of him by the autumn.

Oddly enough though I think Goode is good footballer, I am not sure FB is his best position.  However he does have the experience there at international level.