Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

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England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

May just isn't good enough, one bit of sloppy tackling by NZ has made him look far better than he actually is. Gas isn't enough at international level, although players like him and Wade are always going to be great club players.

At test level these days, your wingers need the physicality that Nowell and Yarde bring, they would be my first choice right now, although Watson is a very close 3rd. Yarde has come good towards the end of the season, his confidence is up, he's beating men regularly through his running lines, step and fend. Nowell I've always thought is class, shame he didn't get more time in an England shirt this season.

mid_gen wrote:May just isn't good enough, one bit of sloppy tackling by NZ has made him look far better than he actually is. Gas isn't enough at international level, although players like him and Wade are always going to be great club players.

At test level these days, your wingers need the physicality that Nowell and Yarde bring, they would be my first choice right now, although Watson is a very close 3rd. Yarde has come good towards the end of the season, his confidence is up, he's beating men regularly through his running lines, step and fend. Nowell I've always thought is class, shame he didn't get more time in an England shirt this season.

Fair points, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I certainly agree regarding Nowell. His game against Scotland was so great to watch. It was an industrious performance, and I'm glad he got a try for all of his hard work.  

Yarde might be physical going forward, but his defence it pretty awful. I'd be more anxious with Yarde starting on the wing than any other winger in the 50 man squad. 

May's try against New Zealand wasn't just down to sloppy defence- that's unfair. It's too easy to say that every try ever scored is down to poor defending. Certainly May has had some poor games in an England shirt, but he make so many breaks in the premiership for it to just be blind luck.  

Personally, I think he's an absolute class act and has way more to offer England.

bluestonevedder wrote:

mid_gen wrote:May just isn't good enough, one bit of sloppy tackling by NZ has made him look far better than he actually is. Gas isn't enough at international level, although players like him and Wade are always going to be great club players.

At test level these days, your wingers need the physicality that Nowell and Yarde bring, they would be my first choice right now, although Watson is a very close 3rd. Yarde has come good towards the end of the season, his confidence is up, he's beating men regularly through his running lines, step and fend. Nowell I've always thought is class, shame he didn't get more time in an England shirt this season.

Fair points, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I certainly agree regarding Nowell. His game against Scotland was so great to watch. It was an industrious performance, and I'm glad he got a try for all of his hard work.  

Yarde might be physical going forward, but his defence it pretty awful. I'd be more anxious with Yarde starting on the wing than any other winger in the 50 man squad. 

May's try against New Zealand wasn't just down to sloppy defence- that's unfair. It's too easy to say that every try ever scored is down to poor defending. Certainly May has had some poor games in an England shirt, but he make so many breaks in the premiership for it to just be blind luck.  

Personally, I think he's an absolute class act and has way more to offer England.

+1. May can be frustrating, but he is pretty special. He is exceptionally fast and its worth remembering that all aspects of his game are at least safe.

He won't score tries like the AB one every game, but he does score them on a regular enough basis against all opposition to be worthy of notice.

mid gen I agree with you to some extent. May is not good enough. Nowell has become a more complete player. Though disagree about Yarde and Watson in regards to physicality. Yarde did not have the best season for Quins and Watson has his own defensive frailties.

May is quite clearly overrated. He still has not proven he is international class. He's lucky to be in the 50 training squad let alone be in contention for a starting shirt.

Lostinwales regular enough basis? May did not manage one try in last year's 6 nations. He was one of the worst performing players in the 6 nations.

Nowell has improved immeasurably from his poor 6 nations debut - credit to the young man. May has not.

The only reason you think that May is special is that he can run fast, unfortunately quite often he fails to run in a straight line!

DaveM wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

I'd agree with most of that, but I think it would be a huge call to try Watson at fullback in the RWC. Brown's back in full training and while he will have a bit of fitness to make up, the one upside of a concussion layoff is that it allows time for any physical niggles to clear up.

I'd expect Brown to get game time in the warm ups, but even if he's not fully fit I can't see Watson playing FB except as backup to Goode. It would be a huge call to start an RWC game with an untried fullback, especially given the lack of caps in the backline.

You say untested, but he's first choice FB at probably the best side in English rugby. Ideally he'd have a year's worth of experience at 15 at international level, but he has at least played a bit at 14, and he's an amazing talent. I think he is destined to be regarded as a truly world class fullback, and I think he's ready to make that transition.

Goode is a good player, but I think Watson will be ahead of him by the autumn.  

DaveM, I would agree with you that Watson has more potential than Goode, and perhaps as soon as the 6N I'd expect him (or Nowell) to become England's fullback cover. But given the reliance that England's defensive approach and exit strategy place on the back three and the fullback in particular, it would be a huge ask to put him there in an RWC where pretty much every game is critical.

However, I'd expect Nowell, Brown and Watson to be the starting trio, assuming all three are fit, with Goode in the squad as cover for Brown. The warm-ups will decide whether Yarde or May takes the final spot.

Given today's report about Strettle joining Clermont after the RWC, surely Wade should have been given his spot

Bambam if that is the case I do indeed feel sorry for Wade.

As for Strettle - don't blame him. Nice opportunity to top up his bank balance and try out his luck in the Top 14 for one of the top sides in France. Wish him the best of luck.

He'll be 32 when he signs for Clermont. Gives an opportunity for someone to take the 11 shirt at Saracens. Nathan Earle,Mike Ellery and Catalin Fercu - all potential contenders - also I expect they are on smaller salaries than Strettle too!

For the world cup squad proper, it depends on whether they are 17 forwards and 14 backs or an 18/13 split.

If only 13 then it might be difficult to justify both Goode and Watson, unless Goode is seen as the third fly-half.  Numbers will be tight.

cb wrote:For the world cup squad proper, it depends on whether they are 17 forwards and 14 backs or an 18/13 split.

If only 13 then it might be difficult to justify both Goode and Watson, unless Goode is seen as the third fly-half.  Numbers will be tight.

I think a lot of the non first XV players will be ones who can cover multiple positions. Lancaster has apparently said he wants to take a close look at Burgess as a 6 (and Vunipola as a 6) - the former would allow a 6/2 bench split with Burgess covering 6 and 12, or a 5/3 one allowing a spare outside back.

Dylan Hartley has been cited for headbutting Jamie George

Lets see if Lancasters word is worth anything then.

Gooseberry wrote:Lets see if Lancasters word is worth anything then.

lets see if he is convicted and of what before sending in the lynch mob

Wasnt much in it though he was clearly looking for a reaction which he got.

cb wrote:Oddly enough though I think Goode is good footballer, I am not sure FB is his best position.  However he does have the experience there at international level.

I agree. I think he's wasted at FB. He should probably still be a FH, but I reckon he could do a job in midfield too.

Poorfour wrote:

DaveM wrote:

You say untested, but he's first choice FB at probably the best side in English rugby. Ideally he'd have a year's worth of experience at 15 at international level, but he has at least played a bit at 14, and he's an amazing talent. I think he is destined to be regarded as a truly world class fullback, and I think he's ready to make that transition.

Goode is a good player, but I think Watson will be ahead of him by the autumn.  

DaveM, I would agree with you that Watson has more potential than Goode, and perhaps as soon as the 6N I'd expect him (or Nowell) to become England's fullback cover. But given the reliance that England's defensive approach and exit strategy place on the back three and the fullback in particular, it would be a huge ask to put him there in an RWC where pretty much every game is critical.

However, I'd expect Nowell, Brown and Watson to be the starting trio, assuming all three are fit, with Goode in the squad as cover for Brown. The warm-ups will decide whether Yarde or May takes the final spot.

Certainly I'd agree that the back 3 you mention would have started in the WC, and this may well still happen. Two things count against it:

- Watson playing FB well at a high level, and having that X-factor about him.
- The severity of Brown's injury: Until we see him on the pitch there is still the possibility it has been career ending, and assuming he does play again we can't know how it might have affected his play.

If it comes down to Watson versus Goode then after the summer camp I think SL will go with Watson. Having said that, it will be an interesting contest between the two of them this weekend.

BamBam wrote:Given today's report about Strettle joining Clermont after the RWC, surely Wade should have been given his spot

Why? Strettle is still playing in England and so meets the criteria.

DaveM wrote:

BamBam wrote:Given today's report about Strettle joining Clermont after the RWC, surely Wade should have been given his spot

Why? Strettle is still playing in England and so meets the criteria.

No only that I can think of other players who should be higher in the pe king order than Wade. Banahan for one. Wade needs to learn to defend before he can be considered which is what I suspect he has been told.

DaveM wrote:- The severity of Brown's injury: Until we see him on the pitch there is still the possibility it has been career ending, and assuming he does play again we can't know how it might have affected his play.

If it comes down to Watson versus Goode then after the summer camp I think SL will go with Watson. Having said that, it will be an interesting contest between the two of them this weekend.

Brown's injury has at no point been reported as anywhere remotely that severe. It's a concussion and he took a while to clear completely, but both Englanf and Quins were being ultra-cautious - unlike Wales and Racing Metro were with North and Sexton. He wasn't allowed to train until he had completed the return to play protocols, and that meant being completely free of headaches and dizziness before returning to training. He reported that he was back in training about 2 weeks ago.

He'll have lost a little fitness but nothing that he can't make up in a long pre-season. I also suspect that the enforced break will have given any residual niggles time to clear up.

Well if Lancaster is looking for multi positional players ...

why not Ewers (6/8 and I bet he could cover emergency lock)
Barritt can cover Flanker aswell...

Ill not mention Garvey (lock / 6)

One thing that hasn't really been discussed is how many players are missing from the squad due to injuries / unavailability?

I think overall we're in a pretty good spot at the moment, as I would only have expected the following to be included in an absolute first choice squad:

Manu (rightly unavailable because of his stupidity) - Pity from a squad / matchday 23 perspective.
Foden - would still be my choice for the 2nd full back / bench back 3 player if fit
Croft - Would undoubtedly make the extended squad but I'm not convinced would have made the final squad (maybe just making it because of his capacity to cover second row as well as 6).

OK, so there are some discussion points in the 50 picked, especially amongst the wingers, but I think most would agree with at least 45 of the players picked especially when you consider the likes of Itoje and perhaps Slade have been included for future development more than as likely final squad members.

Most of the locks have played and could cover in the backrow.  No quite so sure about the other way round, except for Easter.

Among the backs, there is quite a lot of utility with players like Farrell, Slade and Watson amongst others.  Even May at a pinch could cover full-back (slightly concerned) and maybe outside centre (interesting thought?).

The fifteen below could form a good side but are not currently destined for the world cup for various reasons and are not in the main squad

Foden
Rokoduguni
Manu
Devoto
Wade
Burns
Simpson
Waldron
Ewers
Amitage
Garvey
Kitchener
Waller
George
Thomas

I think 9 of these have been capped.

would be funny if Hartley were to be banned that he would most likely be replaced in the squad by George.

cb wrote:Most of the locks have played and could cover in the backrow.  No quite so sure about the other way round, except for Easter.

Among the backs, there is quite a lot of utility with players like Farrell, Slade and Watson amongst others.  Even May at a pinch could cover full-back (slightly concerned) and maybe outside centre (interesting thought?).

Very true - Lawes, Launchbury and Kruis (And Slater if he is in)

I'd like to see Eastmond in there. He can cover a few positions aswell.

That Bath performance this weekend was pretty special.

Exiledinborders wrote:

DaveM wrote:

BamBam wrote:Given today's report about Strettle joining Clermont after the RWC, surely Wade should have been given his spot

Why? Strettle is still playing in England and so meets the criteria.

No only that I can think of other players who should be higher in the pe king order than Wade. Banahan for one.  Wade needs to learn to defend before he can be considered which is what I suspect he has been told.  

Given Strettle is at best 5th in the pecking order at wing at the moment (Watson, Nowell, May, Ashton, Strettle/Yarde), if he's off to France he's not going to have any future with England so surely a youngster who has shown massive attacking talent should be given a place in the squad.

Of course, if you go by the argument that the RWC takes precedence and its all about the here and now, i'd direct you towards Messrs Armitage and Abendanon

cb wrote:Among the backs, there is quite a lot of utility with players like Farrell, Slade and Watson amongst others.  Even May at a pinch could cover full-back (slightly concerned) and maybe outside centre (interesting thought?).

There's more utility than before, but I think we're still light in the place-kicking department.

I'm thinking of a situation where Ford is our first choice fly-half, and he's running the game well, but having a shocker when going for the posts.

You don't necessarily want to sub Ford in those circumstances but, as it stands, our alternative kicking options are usually on the bench, so someone would have to make way to bring another kicker on.

In the best case, another kicker is already in the starting XV. However, Farrell and Twelvetrees aren't first choice inside centres, Goode isn't first choice full back, and Slade and Daly have to go some to make their case as centres.

Meanwhile, our two main rivals in the group will both have other kickers on the pitch.

Ford's kicking has really come on - the stats on screen in the semi-final said that he's running at about 80% this season - better than Burns. Twelvetrees has actually looked fairly good as a replacement and has a reliable boot, and I'd be confident with Farrell in the centres to close a game out (remember they played international age grade rugby with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12)

I thought Ford's kicking in the France game was excellent - missed one medium-long kick he should have got early one when he slipped a bit, but then was striking the ball really nicely and landing from all angles despite the scoreboard pressure. From what I understand, his club form has mostly been good this season, with just the occasional real off-day.

OK, I don't think any of us would trust him as much as prime-era Wilkinson, but he's good enough and brings so much else to the game.

It's pretty unusual for teams to change kickers mid game unless the starting kicker goes off (or for an exceptional kick from long range as 1/2p and previously Henson used to take for Wales), so I don't see the absence of a second front-line kicker as that big a deal.

I think if Ford was having a real shocker from the tee, it might be best to bring Farrell on, though arguably they can play together.  I do remember Youngs kicking well for Leicester versus the Boks some years ago?

Poorfour wrote:Ford's kicking has really come on - the stats on screen in the semi-final said that he's running at about 80% this season - better than Burns. Twelvetrees has actually looked fairly good as a replacement and has a reliable boot, and I'd be confident with Farrell in the centres to close a game out (remember they played international age grade rugby with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12)

Imagine we are playing Australia, winning scrum penalties, but Ford is 0 from 4 after 25 minutes while Foley/Beale/Giteau/O'Connor/Lealiifano has slotted one or two, putting us behind on the scoreboard.

Options are:

1. Keep Ford going for goal
2. Turn down kicks in favour of trying to score from attacking lineouts or scrums
3. Replace Ford with the bench flyhalf
4. Replace our inside centre with Farrell, Twelvetrees and hand them kicking duties (could be Slade or Daly too, I suppose)
5. Replace Brown with Goode and get him to kick

Any one of those strategies might work but they all feel like they compromise our main attacking threats. If those other kickers were the best inside centre options, then they would start. Switching one in means breaking up our starting backline.

There's a slightly less nuclear option, RF, which is to narrow the range and angle where Ford kicks for goal - go for the corner until he has a sitter to get his eye in, and then decide how best to play it.

I think the likelihood of the 2015 Ford being 0/4 is pretty low, too.

(As an aside, it's always surprised me that Brown, who generally has an excellent boot in open play, has never developed place kicking as a backup option. He tried it once for Quins and was dire)

Was that in the Bloodgate game when Evans was hobbling? I remember people also used to talk about Delon Armitage as a long range option when he was at his London Irish best, but whenever I saw him place kick it was appalling.

Youngs, Care and Wiggy should all be practising goal kicking. Youngs used to be pretty good.

Delon's taken a couple of long ones in Europe for Toulon this season, not sure whether Halfpenny was playing or not, or whether he knocked them over.

Hartley banned for 4 weeks, suspension ending 3 days after Englands opening RWC game. Is that it for him?

LondonTiger wrote:Hartley banned for 4 weeks, suspension ending 3 days after Englands opening RWC game.  Is that it for him?

Doesn't make Lancaster's life any easier certainly. Not as bad as Manu (obviously) and so in isolation should not be automatic exclusion from the squad, but missing the warm up games and the first match of the tournament is a serious negative. Would be worse if the first match was against one of the top opponents, but we should be able to beat Fiji with any members of the squad playing

It also seems to be message board wisdom that Hartley was on some kind of 'final warning' from the England management - would this be enough of an incident to be counted against him?

I'd be surprised if he is dropped from the squad, but Lancaster has been quite ruthless with dropping players for behaviour issues, so not THAT surprised if he is axed.

Well if Lancaster is consistent he should drop Hartley. Plus he misses all the build up of the WC and misses match practice.

It would then be Tom Youngs starting with webber and George....though George has impressed me and has the size..

That would also probably signal the end of Hartleys England career.

Leaving aside the moral issue, if Lancaster wants four hookers in training and names someone else, then, from a practical viewpoint, he may need to discard Hartley.

He could still be in broad consideration as injury cover, but pushed down to fifth choice.

If Lancaster decides on the nuclear option instead, then you'd think he would make a statement soon.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well if Lancaster is consistent he should drop Hartley. Plus he misses all the build up of the WC and misses match practice.

It would then be Tom Youngs starting with webber and George....though George has impressed me and has the size..

That would also probably signal the end of Hartleys England career.

It should be noted that LCD was the fourth choice hooker in the 50 man squad, not George.

Looks like he pleaded guilty to the charge despite knowing it would be 4 weeks minimum (because there's no chance of him ever getting a reduction. That suggests to me he was assured that he'd keep his place in the wc squad. Otherwise he'd surely take a punt and contest it?

what a tool to do this now,,,,question is will Stewie forgive him,,,,based on what happened with manu's crimes i think he will bin him

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Looks like he pleaded guilty to the charge despite knowing it would be 4 weeks minimum (because there's no chance of him ever getting a reduction. That suggests to me he was assured that he'd keep his place in the wc squad. Otherwise he'd surely take a punt and contest it?

Listening to the radio while I was driving daughter to airport, the consensus from the different rugby correspondents seems to be he will be included in the WC squad. Now while Lancaster never said he was on a last warning, Hartley himself had said this. It will however feel a touch hypocritical if Hartley is included in the squad - and sadly another stick for the haters to beat us up with as they ignore the fallibilities and hypocrisies of their own causes.

Rugby Fan wrote:Leaving aside the moral issue, if Lancaster wants four hookers in training and names someone else, then, from a practical viewpoint, he may need to discard Hartley.

He could still be in broad consideration as injury cover, but pushed down to fifth choice.

If Lancaster decides on the nuclear option instead, then you'd think he would make a statement soon.

There is a press conference tomorrow ahead of the BaaBaas game on Sunday so SL will have an opportunity then......

He was already on his "last chance" before he was banned for elbow at christmas.
If Lancasters word and authority means anything then he wont be going to the world cup. If his pragmatism and desire to win the thing does, he will. Either way its going to be both the right and wrong thing to do.

To be fair on Hartley a lot of folk do see this as a technically hes guilty but is that what they really intended to punish sort of thing. Theres a lot more vicious strikes that happen quite regularly and dont even get reported.

In terms of being a repeat offender and thugs hes nothing on Haluafia.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well if Lancaster is consistent he should drop Hartley. Plus he misses all the build up of the WC and misses match practice.

It would then be Tom Youngs starting with webber and George....though George has impressed me and has the size..

That would also probably signal the end of Hartleys England career.

It should be noted that LCD was the fourth choice hooker in the 50 man squad, not George.

Yeah but looked an oversight on his performances...and if Hartley is banned (which based on this would be harsh) then he should come in and leap over LCD.

LondonTiger wrote:

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Looks like he pleaded guilty to the charge despite knowing it would be 4 weeks minimum (because there's no chance of him ever getting a reduction. That suggests to me he was assured that he'd keep his place in the wc squad. Otherwise he'd surely take a punt and contest it?

Listening to the radio while I was driving daughter to airport, the consensus from the different rugby correspondents seems to be he will be included in the WC squad. Now while Lancaster never said he was on a last warning, Hartley himself had said this. It will however feel a touch hypocritical if Hartley is included in the squad - and sadly another stick for the haters to beat us up with as they ignore the fallibilities and hypocrisies of their own causes.

Agreed. It would bring the whole Tuilagi thing back in to light. And other players who have been dropped for disciplinary reasons.

If Lancaster is going to ban Hartley, we'll hear about it soon. He could decide to demote him instead, making him fifth choice if he had to name another hooker to the squad for training.

I don't think they'll ban him however.

They'll stick with Youngs, Webber, LCD.

Gooseberry wrote:He was already on his "last chance" before he was banned for elbow at christmas.
If Lancasters word and authority means anything then he wont be going to the world cup. If his pragmatism and desire to win the thing does, he will. Either way its going to be both the right and wrong thing to do.

To be fair on Hartley a lot of folk do see this as a technically hes guilty but is that what they really intended to punish sort of thing. Theres a lot more vicious strikes that happen quite regularly and dont even get reported.  

In terms of being a repeat offender and thugs hes nothing on  Haluafia.

I agree Gooseberry - I dont think SL has much of a choice in this matter. There was a public announcement saying that Hartley was on his last chance and now this happens.
In my mind options that are already in the squad are - T.Youngs, R.Webber (who isnt starting for Bath), LCD. If you were going to bring in a 4th from outside the squad then the options are J.George or you could go outside the convention at the moment and look at a guy like D.Ward (who is playing for the BaaBaas against the England 15 on the weekend). Also been a Saxon. In the past the default selection for experienced Hooker has been D.Paice - but I dont think he is in the running this time.

propdavid_london wrote: There was a public announcement saying that Hartley was on his last chance and now this happens.

Was there?

Thought only Hartley himself had suggested this while talking about his visits to a psychologist*.






*There will be some suggesting he should have been going to a psychiatrist.