Pro 12 attendances

First topic message reminder :

Good article here:

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/editorials/some-stats-on-the-pro12-2014-15-season/

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I suggest we use one of the other threads to discuss the B&I league - don't want to take this one off topic.

Look at the Heading.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Funnily enough I actually agree with Chunky in that the only long-term solution is some form of B & I league but unfortunately it's not going to happen.

Don't bank on it.

Why's that Chunks, it's a nice idea for those of us on the outside (think deluded Celtic and Rangers fans hoping that one day the English will see sense and let them into the Premier League), but I don't see any benefit for the English clubs in doing so, at the top end of the league more competition and for the bottom end a possible road to obscurity and bankruptcy - a lose-lose for PRL.

I suggest we use one of the other threads to discuss the B&I league - don't want to take this one off topic.

SecretFly wrote:
Thus why I'd bring up Smit and AP club Saracens.  Are we going to keep this 'Logic is Logic' duelling contest going???

But I've been told I'm not allowed to use logic in my breakdown of the 32m. But you are, right?

rodders wrote:Finally the Scots are turning the corner

Wait hang on.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Thus why I'd bring up Smit and AP club Saracens.  Are we going to keep this 'Logic is Logic' duelling contest going???

But I've been told I'm not allowed to use logic in my breakdown of the 32m. But you are, right?

I'm asking you point blank to use logic. I'm inviting you. Break it down. Use your logic. How do IRFU do it? You must have a clue how it all pans out. Don't question. Profess. We want to hear.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Thus why I'd bring up Smit and AP club Saracens.  Are we going to keep this 'Logic is Logic' duelling contest going???

But I've been told I'm not allowed to use logic in my breakdown of the 32m. But you are, right?

logics not needed to break it down, the actual breakdowns provided in the IRFU accounts

marty2086 wrote:logics not needed to break it down, the actual breakdowns provided in the IRFU accounts

Can you post a link for that for me, I would genuinely be interested in seeing what the provinces pay in wages to their players.

we must have some amount of accountants on these forums. this tread is worse than a corporate audit

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:logics not needed to break it down, the actual breakdowns provided in the IRFU accounts

Can you post a link for that for me, I would genuinely be interested in seeing what the provinces pay in wages to their players.

I've posted the figures earlier in the thread, 28m of the IRFUs budget goes to player and management costs it doesn't give the complete breakdown and aren't required to

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How mcuh is Toulon's salary budget?

It's irrelevant, isn't it?

Obviosuly not, as Rodders wouldn't have compared Irish salaries to it.

12.5million euro payroll for 2014.

Toulon, Clermont and Racing all have an operating budget budget of greater than 25million Euros, with 32% accounting for payroll in the top 4 French clubs.

Source DNCAG.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:logics not needed to break it down, the actual breakdowns provided in the IRFU accounts

Can you post a link for that for me, I would genuinely be interested in seeing what the provinces pay in wages to their players.

...and could you pass me Ospreys, thanks.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:logics not needed to break it down, the actual breakdowns provided in the IRFU accounts

Can you post a link for that for me, I would genuinely be interested in seeing what the provinces pay in wages to their players.

...and could you pass me Ospreys, thanks.

the big question though is what shape is the P&L in???

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:logics not needed to break it down, the actual breakdowns provided in the IRFU accounts

Can you post a link for that for me, I would genuinely be interested in seeing what the provinces pay in wages to their players.

...and could you pass me Ospreys, thanks.

Fl that'd be the self imposed £3.5m plus whatever the WRU puts in to the dual contracted players

'Self imposed' is a nice compound word. Gone AWOL in recent months but that's for another thread and OFF-TOPIC of course

SecretFly wrote:...and could you pass me Ospreys, thanks.

What do you want that for ? We are not talking about them we are talking about Irelands budgets against the Englands budgets.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:...and could you pass me Ospreys, thanks.

What do you want that for ? We are not talking about them we are talking about Irelands budgets against the Englands budgets.

i thought we were talking about the increase in attendences in the Pro12

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How mcuh is Toulon's salary budget?

It's irrelevant, isn't it?

Obviosuly not, as Rodders wouldn't have compared Irish salaries to it.

12.5million euro payroll for 2014.

Toulon, Clermont and Racing all have an operating budget budget of greater than 25million Euros, with 32% accounting for payroll in the top 4 French clubs.

Source DNCAG.

And the 12.5m only accounts for the players paid directly by the club:-

As Toulon president Mourad Boudjellal explained to the Midi Olympique last season, players do not receive all their remuneration from the club.

"With five or six players we put in place a system, which is completely legal and not at all secret, that allows some of their salary to be paid in a way that doesn't fall under the cap," explained Boudjellal.

"Along with Jonny Wilkinson we created a business that commercialised the products of his brand 10.

"That business makes money through caps, t-shirts, polos etc. of Jonny. Should the money brought in and the image rights count under the salary cap? I don't think so. Of course these are only top-ups to his salary, and constitute six-figure sums, not seven."

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9432522,00.html

rodders wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How mcuh is Toulon's salary budget?

It's irrelevant, isn't it?

Obviosuly not, as Rodders wouldn't have compared Irish salaries to it.

12.5million euro payroll for 2014.

Toulon, Clermont and Racing all have an operating budget budget of greater than 25million Euros, with 32% accounting for payroll in the top 4 French clubs.

Source DNCAG.

And the 12.5m only accounts for the players paid directly by the club:-

As Toulon president Mourad Boudjellal explained to the Midi Olympique last season, players do not receive all their remuneration from the club.

"With five or six players we put in place a system, which is completely legal and not at all secret, that allows some of their salary to be paid in a way that doesn't fall under the cap," explained Boudjellal.

"Along with Jonny Wilkinson we created a business that commercialised the products of his brand 10.

"That business makes money through caps, t-shirts, polos etc. of Jonny. Should the money brought in and the image rights count under the salary cap? I don't think so. Of course these are only top-ups to his salary, and constitute six-figure sums, not seven."

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9432522,00.html

Weren't Toulon and a few other Franch clubs also playing fast and loose with the eligibility criteria that were in place back in the old HC days?

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How mcuh is Toulon's salary budget?

It's irrelevant, isn't it?

Obviosuly not, as Rodders wouldn't have compared Irish salaries to it.

12.5million euro payroll for 2014.

.

Wow, that's quite alot when the salary cap is 10m Euros.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

How mcuh is Toulon's salary budget?

It's irrelevant, isn't it?

Obviosuly not, as Rodders wouldn't have compared Irish salaries to it.

12.5million euro payroll for 2014.

.

Wow, that's quite alot when the salary cap is 10m Euros.

And he just explained why in his last post but why pay attention to that

marty2086 wrote:

And he just explained why in his last post but why pay attention to that

I didn't see any explanation of why the claim that Toulon's salary is above the salary cap.The figure is a crock of crap.

SecretFly wrote:'Self imposed' is a nice compound word.  Gone AWOL in recent months but that's for another thread and OFF-TOPIC of course

So what is the issue with a self imposed cap? The regions self imposed salary cap was organised by RRW. And would it not be the case the cap in the Jeff is actually a self imposed cap as it is imposed by the PRL?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And he just explained why in his last post but why pay attention to that

I didn't see any explanation of why the claim that Toulon's salary is above the salary cap.The figure is a crock of crap.

As Toulon president Mourad Boudjellal explained to the Midi Olympique last season, players do not receive all their remuneration from the club.

"With five or six players we put in place a system, which is completely legal and not at all secret, that allows some of their salary to be paid in a way that doesn't fall under the cap," explained Boudjellal.

"Along with Jonny Wilkinson we created a business that commercialised the products of his brand 10.

"That business makes money through caps, t-shirts, polos etc. of Jonny. Should the money brought in and the image rights count under the salary cap? I don't think so. Of course these are only top-ups to his salary, and constitute six-figure sums, not seven."

Since you need big arrows and neon lights here you go

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And he just explained why in his last post but why pay attention to that

I didn't see any explanation of why the claim that Toulon's salary is above the salary cap.The figure is a crock of crap.

As Toulon president Mourad Boudjellal explained to the Midi Olympique last season, players do not receive all their remuneration from the club.

"With five or six players we put in place a system, which is completely legal and not at all secret, that allows some of their salary to be paid in a way that doesn't fall under the cap," explained Boudjellal.

"Along with Jonny Wilkinson we created a business that commercialised the products of his brand 10.

"That business makes money through caps, t-shirts, polos etc. of Jonny. Should the money brought in and the image rights count under the salary cap? I don't think so. Of course these are only top-ups to his salary, and constitute six-figure sums, not seven."

Since you need big arrows and neon lights here you go

Eh? That's additional money for image rights and clothing ranges. That's not Toulon's annual salary. Rodders must know what it is because he compared Irish salaries to it. The fact that I've just been told that it is 12.5m when the salary cap is 10m shows how misguided and confused some of you are.

So what is Toulon's salary per year?

I've kind of lost all sense of reality. Why is even an issue if the Irish spend the same as the English clubs salary cap?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:...and could you pass me Ospreys, thanks.

What do you want that for ? We are not talking about them we are talking about Irelands budgets against the Englands budgets.

?

You really are bizarre debaters.

Chunky wants to debate the fantasy 'Reality' of an English Cap against the Unknown Reality of the IRFU salary details... he accepts that both are clouded due to lack of detail yet he continues to use the English Cap as a solid foundation arguing tool?

You on the other hand don't want to compare like with like at all - and claim Welsh Salary Budgets (including a supposed Cap) are out of bounds as pertinent to the debate even though YOU and Chunky are Welsh, biased, and are making claims that Irish salaries are much closer to French top spending than English hidden spending.

Don't you see the madness?

Show me the Ospreys accounts (and throw in the others too) so that I can myself remove them from the debate.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And he just explained why in his last post but why pay attention to that

I didn't see any explanation of why the claim that Toulon's salary is above the salary cap.The figure is a crock of crap.

As Toulon president Mourad Boudjellal explained to the Midi Olympique last season, players do not receive all their remuneration from the club.

"With five or six players we put in place a system, which is completely legal and not at all secret, that allows some of their salary to be paid in a way that doesn't fall under the cap," explained Boudjellal.

"Along with Jonny Wilkinson we created a business that commercialised the products of his brand 10.

"That business makes money through caps, t-shirts, polos etc. of Jonny. Should the money brought in and the image rights count under the salary cap? I don't think so. Of course these are only top-ups to his salary, and constitute six-figure sums, not seven."

Since you need big arrows and neon lights here you go

Eh? That's additional money for image rights and clothing ranges. That's not Toulon's annual salary. Rodders must know what it is because he compared Irish salaries to it. The fact that I've just been told that it is 12.5m when the salary cap is 10m shows how misguided and confused some of you are.

So what is Toulon's salary per year?

'Midi Olympique reported last month that Dan Carter’s salary when he joins Racing Metro after the World Cup will be around €500,000; but on top of that it is alleged the All Blacks fly-half will receive a similar sum from his image rights including an estimated €300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92'

'It’s a strategy long employed by Mourad Boudjellal, the canny president of Toulon, who has made no secret of the fact the club has been imaginative in ensuring its top players receive the sort of sums they deserve for their talent. In an interview last season he explained that Toulon’s total wage bill was €8.55m – well within the €10m salary cap – but that nonetheless a star such as Jonny Wilkinson earned income on top of his salary.'

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/france-countries/top-14-finances-salary-cap-strongly-policed-france-42028

Chunky Norwich wrote:

So what is Toulon's salary per year?

Let's see.... about 42 players or thereabouts I'd reckon. On about £200,000 each for about the top 10 players and maybe £150,000 for the others.

That's...let me get out my calculator..... that's about 6.8M?

So about 2M less than Irish Provinces.

marty2086 wrote:

'Midi Olympique reported last month that Dan Carter’s salary when he joins Racing Metro after the World Cup will be around €500,000; but on top of that it is alleged the All Blacks fly-half will receive a similar sum from his image rights including an estimated €300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92'

'It’s a strategy long employed by Mourad Boudjellal, the canny president of Toulon, who has made no secret of the fact the club has been imaginative in ensuring its top players receive the sort of sums they deserve for their talent. In an interview last season he explained that Toulon’s total wage bill was €8.55m – well within the €10m salary cap – but that nonetheless a star such as Jonny Wilkinson earned income on top of his salary.'

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/france-countries/top-14-finances-salary-cap-strongly-policed-france-42028

YAY. The corect answer. Finally. Which is £6.07m

Which is round about what Ulster's annual wage budget is, perhaps even elss.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And he just explained why in his last post but why pay attention to that

I didn't see any explanation of why the claim that Toulon's salary is above the salary cap.The figure is a crock of crap.

Apologies - total payroll is 12 million, 8.55 accounts for players only, excluding those paid outside the club via club owned brands.

Either way total player salary is way in excess of the cap, even the club admit it.

Toulouse own the airport and a lot of other local businesses around the city and pay the players through corporate sponsorship, Racing do the same.

The fact that the salary cap is 10m and still the clubs are looking for ways round it says a lot.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

'Midi Olympique reported last month that Dan Carter’s salary when he joins Racing Metro after the World Cup will be around €500,000; but on top of that it is alleged the All Blacks fly-half will receive a similar sum from his image rights including an estimated €300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92'

'It’s a strategy long employed by Mourad Boudjellal, the canny president of Toulon, who has made no secret of the fact the club has been imaginative in ensuring its top players receive the sort of sums they deserve for their talent. In an interview last season he explained that Toulon’s total wage bill was €8.55m – well within the €10m salary cap – but that nonetheless a star such as Jonny Wilkinson earned income on top of his salary.'

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/france-countries/top-14-finances-salary-cap-strongly-policed-france-42028

YAY. The corect answer. Finally. Which is £6.07m

Which is round about what Ulster's annual wage budget is.

And where do you get Ulsters figure from?

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And he just explained why in his last post but why pay attention to that

I didn't see any explanation of why the claim that Toulon's salary is above the salary cap.The figure is a crock of crap.

Apologies - total payroll is 12 million, 8.55 accounts for players only, excluding those paid outside the club via club owned brands.

Either way total player salary is way in excess of the cap, even the club admit it.

Toulouse own the airport and a lot of other local businesses around the city and pay the players through corporate sponsorship, Racing do the same.

The fact that the salary cap is 10m and still the clubs are looking for ways round it says a lot.

So are you telling me that players like Ruan Pienar receive no money for image rights etc, outside of their annual salary?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

'Midi Olympique reported last month that Dan Carter’s salary when he joins Racing Metro after the World Cup will be around €500,000; but on top of that it is alleged the All Blacks fly-half will receive a similar sum from his image rights including an estimated €300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92'

'It’s a strategy long employed by Mourad Boudjellal, the canny president of Toulon, who has made no secret of the fact the club has been imaginative in ensuring its top players receive the sort of sums they deserve for their talent. In an interview last season he explained that Toulon’s total wage bill was €8.55m – well within the €10m salary cap – but that nonetheless a star such as Jonny Wilkinson earned income on top of his salary.'

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/france-countries/top-14-finances-salary-cap-strongly-policed-france-42028

YAY. The corect answer. Finally. Which is £6.07m

Which is round about what Ulster's annual wage budget is, perhaps even elss.

Where have Ulster published their wage bill? can you send the link.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

'Midi Olympique reported last month that Dan Carter’s salary when he joins Racing Metro after the World Cup will be around €500,000; but on top of that it is alleged the All Blacks fly-half will receive a similar sum from his image rights including an estimated €300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92'

'It’s a strategy long employed by Mourad Boudjellal, the canny president of Toulon, who has made no secret of the fact the club has been imaginative in ensuring its top players receive the sort of sums they deserve for their talent. In an interview last season he explained that Toulon’s total wage bill was €8.55m – well within the €10m salary cap – but that nonetheless a star such as Jonny Wilkinson earned income on top of his salary.'

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/france-countries/top-14-finances-salary-cap-strongly-policed-france-42028

YAY. The corect answer. Finally. Which is £6.07m

Which is round about what Ulster's annual wage budget is.

And where do you get Ulsters figure from?

I told you, it's in that 32m that I'm not allowed to disect. Because if I were to dsect it, then the Irish get all angry and defensive.

Question: Why do Toulon players run to Toulon?

Because they love the brand and the fans.

Even POC is seriously thinking about leaving his Million plus IRFU contract for the chance to play with Toulon for 200,000 and a Cup.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
So are you telling me that players like Ruan Pienar receive no money for image rights etc, outside of their annual salary?

I'll tell you that you haven't produced a jot of evidence to support your claims.

Only things that are published can be discussd on here right?
Jesus lads, you need to open your deluded eyes.

£4.5m

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I told you, it's in that 32m that I'm not allowed to disect.

Have you got it on the table? Have you got your instruments? Dissect away.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
So are you telling me that players like Ruan Pienar receive no money for image rights etc, outside of their annual salary?

Do any of the Welsh boys?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
So are you telling me that players like Ruan Pienar receive no money for image rights etc, outside of their annual salary?

Do any of the Welsh boys?

Yes, all the internationals certainly do.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've kind of lost all sense of reality. Why is even an issue if the Irish spend the same as the English clubs salary cap?

Ok, a quick summary of how we got there.

Chunky posted the OP.
Ladyboy commented with a clear dig at Chunky's past posting styles, and a dig at the Welsh nation having the English as our 'Natural Overlords'
Numerous other posters all gave Ladyboy a pat on the back for it
I complained about how it was a pathetic post, and how there are double standards
Notch said it was all ok
Lord saying the mafia will always allow their lot to say what they want and censor the others
Rodders (??? sorry if it wasn't you, but it was another Ulster fan) came in and started an old issue with from the Jeff Salary Cap Cheats thread

And here we are now......

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I told you, it's in that 32m that I'm not allowed to disect.

Have you got it on the table?  Have you got your instruments?  Dissect away.  

Only £1 goes on salary, the rest goes on ham rolls and chicken portions and bucks fizz for the blazers on match day.

Good summary.

+1

SecretFly wrote:Good summary.

+1

Memory of an elephant, temperament of camel, that's me.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
I told you, it's in that 32m that I'm not allowed to disect. Because if I were to dsect it, then the Irish get all angry and defensive.

31,871,014 is the amount the IRFU spend running the national team and pro game. Where did you get the 32m from?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I told you, it's in that 32m that I'm not allowed to disect.

Have you got it on the table?  Have you got your instruments?  Dissect away.  

Only £1 goes on salary, the rest goes on ham rolls and chicken portions and bucks fizz for the blazers on match day.

Finally you're talking sense. And of course Kelleher gets most of that £1.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've kind of lost all sense of reality. Why is even an issue if the Irish spend the same as the English clubs salary cap?

Ok, a quick summary of how we got there.

Chunky posted the OP.
Ladyboy commented with a clear dig at Chunky's past posting styles, and a dig at the Welsh nation having the English as our 'Natural Overlords'
Numerous other posters all gave Ladyboy a pat on the back for it
I complained about how it was a pathetic post, and how there are double standards
Notch said it was all ok
Lord saying the mafia will always allow their lot to say what they want and censor the others
Rodders (??? sorry if it wasn't you, but it was another Ulster fan) came in and started an old issue with from the Jeff Salary Cap Cheats thread

And here we are now......

So what does it matter if the Irish spend the same at the English salary cap? Why is it important?

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
I told you, it's in that 32m that I'm not allowed to disect. Because if I were to dsect it, then the Irish get all angry and defensive.

31,871,014 is the amount the IRFU spend running the national team and pro game. Where did you get the 32m from?  

He also picked up some £18. something million thing when I read £17M from off a WRU official site.

Accuracy people!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

'Midi Olympique reported last month that Dan Carter’s salary when he joins Racing Metro after the World Cup will be around €500,000; but on top of that it is alleged the All Blacks fly-half will receive a similar sum from his image rights including an estimated €300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92'

'It’s a strategy long employed by Mourad Boudjellal, the canny president of Toulon, who has made no secret of the fact the club has been imaginative in ensuring its top players receive the sort of sums they deserve for their talent. In an interview last season he explained that Toulon’s total wage bill was €8.55m – well within the €10m salary cap – but that nonetheless a star such as Jonny Wilkinson earned income on top of his salary.'

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/france-countries/top-14-finances-salary-cap-strongly-policed-france-42028

YAY. The corect answer. Finally. Which is £6.07m

Which is round about what Ulster's annual wage budget is.

And where do you get Ulsters figure from?

I told you, it's in that 32m that I'm not allowed to disect. Because if I were to dsect it, then the Irish get all angry and defensive.

No the figure spent on players and management is 28m we've been through this but you seem incapable of comprehending your using the wrong figure

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Rodders (??? sorry if it wasn't you, but it was another Ulster fan) came in and started an old issue with from the Jeff Salary Cap Cheats thread

It was LordDowlis who brought it up that thread and the reference to the salaries, I'm guessing he's not a big Ulster fan.