Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2015-16-17

[Sin é]

First topic message reminder :

What it says in the title - a place to put all bits of news not worth starting a thread for the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland such as new signings, interviews that maybe of interest to others etc.

I've just added on 17 as its not a huge thread.

[Don Alfonso]

Do fans from any other country blether on about "familiarity" as endlessly Irish fans do? The Darcy/O'Driscoll obsession has seriously skewed our idea of what is necessary to make different units within a team work.

[Sin é]

Also no offence to 36 year old Mike Ross, but moving him to Connacht in any form of deal for Henshaw would be a slap in the face from the IRFU.

There is no deal. Henshaw is free to go where he wishes.

I agree I don't think it will happen , jut commenting on what was posted above. I'd like commitment from the IRFU that if it is his wish is to stay, it is as financially viable for him as it would be at any other province.

Ye I think he will stay too and Ross would certainly be a good short term signing for Connacht while they search for another TH .I just hate seeing people suggest that this is a decision the IRFU are making. This is his choice at the end of the day just like it was Mike McCarty's or anyone else who has moved between the provinces choice.

I think Ross has said he would prefer to stay in Leinster - he doesn't want to uproot his family for a year (though I suppose he could just commute).

The way it works I think is that he can either retire or go to Connacht.

[Guest]

Do fans from any other country blether on about "familiarity" as endlessly Irish fans do? The Darcy/O'Driscoll obsession has seriously skewed our idea of what is necessary to make different units within a team work.

Well those two spent as much time honing their telepathic powers as they did anything else. So Schmidt should invest in an ESP coach, or maybe a wizard.

So, IRFU should send Henshaw to Leinster to work with Sexton, and maybe Henderson to work with Toner. Best should move there as well. It can only be a real benefit to work with their front row. Henry and POM should go also and work with SOB. They need to dump Cullen, and bring Schmidt back in as well. It only makes sense. Head coach of Ireland Test side, and head coach of Ireland Club side.

The other three Provinces can be feeders/Development sides

[The Great Aukster]

Your first 4 points are ridiculous. Of course Leinster have more Test caps, have done better in Europe, have finished higher than Connacht in the league and have more players in the Test team. So what? None of that is relevant to the here and present.
Connacht are the ones at the top of the league, not Leinster.
Connacht are the team with great coaching, not Leinster.
Connacht are the team that brought Henshaw through, not Leinster

You haven't answered my question; Why Leinster?

Yes, Henshaw will face that opposition. So what? It isn't as if his going to Leinster will mean he no longer faces that level of competition, and it isn't as if Leinster have more to offer Henshaw than Connacht, in terms of coaching. Do you really think Henshaw is better under the coaching of Cullen than he would be under Lam? Not a chance. There is zero evidence to suggest this. Any evidence is to the contrary.

So what if he moved around at Connacht? By moved around I take you to mean between Fullback and centre. Schmidt would be all for it. He loves a versatile player, and actively encourages it.
What about Henderson? Should he move to Leinster as well? Sure it only makes sense. He will be partnered with Toner, and Leinster would never think of playing him in the backrow, unlike Ulster do!

How long will Cullen be in contract? How long will Kiss be in his contract? Clutching at straws there, Aukster...

Right now he is more likely to gain club honours at Connacht. I'm sure you've noticed that Connacht is the only Province moving forward....

Firstly Munchkin, I'd like to make it clear that I do not want to see Henshaw or anyone else be 'forced' to move. Neither do I want a super province to be formed where all the best players are sent. I'm playing Devil's advocate to tease out the debate to see if there is any merit in allocating players to certain provinces however abhorrent it may seem. Nucifora was brought in supposedly to facilitate such moves, but if he can't actually have any influence on these then what exactly is his responsibility?

Connacht have had a great start to the season no doubt - in a world cup year where they are one of the least affected sides in the League, so I'll reserve judgement until June. If Connacht gain a top 6 finish I'd say Lam is far more likely to be on the recuitment radar than Cullen or Kiss and would probably be easier to buy out as well.

Here are a few answers to your question of why Leinster?
1. the opportunity to regularly play alongside Sexton
2. the opportunity to learn from experienced Test players like Kearney, Kirchener or Nacewa
3. having potentially sterner competition for a place
4. having a higher profile and image rights
5. playing in front of larger crowds and the chance to play at the Aviva more often
6. having the most influential media base in Ireland supporting you

Maybe Henshaw can learn just as much by staying at Connacht, but usually players say they benefit from a move.

[The Great Aukster]

Aukster - firstly you are working from the premise that Robbie Henshaw will remain at 12. My question would be why he would prefer to play in the position where he gets less opportunity to show his considerable attacking prowess and where he will be in direct competition with more players at a similar age. If he pitches his claim for the 13 shirt he could actually have a very long career there and offer a real threat that has been lacking. In fact, the only challenger would be Garry Ringrose, who is still very green and currently lacks the physical attributes that Henshaw possesses.

Also, the past is rather irrelevant at the moment. The big name provinces look rather terrible and Ulster in particular seem to be regressing more than anything. Connacht look like they have a very good team, good coaching and a skill set that is currently above what the other provinces offer. Their success over the next few years could be crucial for both the province itself and for the national team.

Rory - I don't know if 12 is his best position or not. It is however the position that Schmidt has predominantly selected him so right now if he has been told to work on his Inside Centre skills then that should be where he plays. The past record is all we have to comment on but I agree it might be irrelevant - Schmidt may have told Robbie he wants him to play at 15 for all I know!

[profitius]

Henshaw was outstanding at 15 against Munster, a big improvement on what Rob Kearney brings. If Schmist wants someone to make the hard yards at 12, Stuart McCloskey can do that.

[Guest]

Your first 4 points are ridiculous. Of course Leinster have more Test caps, have done better in Europe, have finished higher than Connacht in the league and have more players in the Test team. So what? None of that is relevant to the here and present.
Connacht are the ones at the top of the league, not Leinster.
Connacht are the team with great coaching, not Leinster.
Connacht are the team that brought Henshaw through, not Leinster

You haven't answered my question; Why Leinster?

Yes, Henshaw will face that opposition. So what? It isn't as if his going to Leinster will mean he no longer faces that level of competition, and it isn't as if Leinster have more to offer Henshaw than Connacht, in terms of coaching. Do you really think Henshaw is better under the coaching of Cullen than he would be under Lam? Not a chance. There is zero evidence to suggest this. Any evidence is to the contrary.

So what if he moved around at Connacht? By moved around I take you to mean between Fullback and centre. Schmidt would be all for it. He loves a versatile player, and actively encourages it.
What about Henderson? Should he move to Leinster as well? Sure it only makes sense. He will be partnered with Toner, and Leinster would never think of playing him in the backrow, unlike Ulster do!

How long will Cullen be in contract? How long will Kiss be in his contract? Clutching at straws there, Aukster...

Right now he is more likely to gain club honours at Connacht. I'm sure you've noticed that Connacht is the only Province moving forward....

Firstly Munchkin, I'd like to make it clear that I do not want to see Henshaw or anyone else be 'forced' to move. Neither do I want a super province to be formed where all the best players are sent. I'm playing Devil's advocate to tease out the debate to see if there is any merit in allocating players to certain provinces however abhorrent it may seem. Nucifora was brought in supposedly to facilitate such moves, but if he can't actually have any influence on these then what exactly is his responsibility?

Connacht have had a great start to the season no doubt - in a world cup year where they are one of the least affected sides in the League, so I'll reserve judgement until June. If Connacht gain a top 6 finish I'd say Lam is far more likely to be on the recuitment radar than Cullen or Kiss and would probably be easier to buy out as well.

Here are a few answers to your question of why Leinster?
1. the opportunity to regularly play alongside Sexton
2. the opportunity to learn from experienced Test players like Kearney, Kirchener or Nacewa
3. having potentially sterner competition for a place
4. having a higher profile and image rights
5. playing in front of larger crowds and the chance to play at the Aviva more often
6. having the most influential media base in Ireland supporting you

Maybe Henshaw can learn just as much by staying at Connacht, but usually players say they benefit from a move.

I'm not saying that you do want anyone to be forced to move. You did seem to favour a super Province, but I understand you playing Devils Advocate. For my part, I don't yet believe any player will be forced to move, regardless of some of the rumours circulating.

My understanding was that Nucifora was to help movement of players between the Provinces, by encouraging Players who are not getting much game time to move on to somewhere they will get more games. Not moving players that will weaken sides.I know all this would be for the greater good of the Ireland team, but it's something that could prove counter productive in the long term. If this is true.

Yes, he gets to play alongside Sexton. Does the positive (experience with sexton) outweigh the negative (impact on Connacht team)? I'm not convinced it does, and even if it does, where does it stop? Which player would be next to move because it helps the Ireland team?

Point 2 is fair enough, although experience can be overrated.

Potentially sterner competition for a place? I don't buy it. It isn't as if Leinster are blessed with quality at centre. Certainly no more than Connacht. In fact the way things are going at Connacht, Henshaw would probably get more of a challenge there.

If he want's to move to increase his profile, that's fair enough. That's something that is personal to him, and I've already stated that if he want's to move then he should be free to do so.

point 5 is also a personal thing. It seems a bit lame though.

Point 6) Why do you think Henshaw isn't supported by the media?

[neilthom7]

Ian Nagle having a good game so far in the varsity match

[Rory_Gallagher]

Ian Nagle having a good game so far in the varsity match

There was also an Ulster academy/ravens young man playing - Daniel Dass.

[The Great Aukster]

I'm not saying that you do want anyone to be forced to move. You did seem to favour a super Province, but I understand you playing Devils Advocate. For my part, I don't yet believe any player will be forced to move, regardless of some of the rumours circulating.

My understanding was that Nucifora was to help movement of players between the Provinces, by encouraging Players who are not getting much game time to move on to somewhere they will get more games. Not moving players that will weaken sides.I know all this would be for the greater good of the Ireland team, but it's something that could prove counter productive in the long term. If this is true.

Yes, he gets to play alongside Sexton. Does the positive (experience with sexton) outweigh the negative (impact on Connacht team)? I'm not convinced it does, and even if it does, where does it stop? Which player would be next to move because it helps the Ireland team?

Point 2 is fair enough, although experience can be overrated.

Potentially sterner competition for a place? I don't buy it. It isn't as if Leinster are blessed with quality at centre. Certainly no more than Connacht. In fact the way things are going at Connacht, Henshaw would probably get more of a challenge there.

If he want's to move to increase his profile, that's fair enough. That's something that is personal to him, and I've already stated that if he want's to move then he should be free to do so.

point 5 is also a personal thing. It seems a bit lame though.

Point 6) Why do you think Henshaw isn't supported by the media?

I don't think Henshaw isn't supported by the media. However as an Ulster fan you will appreciate that Leinster players get a lot more leeway in the Dublin based press than other provincial players do - e.g. when Bowe was scapegoated after the French game in 2006. (Munster might argue the same case with regards to Zebo.)

If a player is worth moving then by definition he is worth keeping. The lack of game time is really a function of luck, injury, selection whim, etc. Dom Ryan and Rhys Ruddock have seen Jennings and McLaughlin retire, Jordi Murphy called up to Ireland so things looking up but then Conan and VdFlier emerging so competition all the fiercer. How can anyone predict how a rookie will perform?

Henshaw himself only got his opportunity when Duffy got injured and Connacht had few options. At Connacht he was give more licence to make mistakes because of the circumstances there than he would have got at Leinster, so arguably if Duffy hadn't got injured and RH had been seeing little gametime, it would have still been wrong to move him.

[neilthom7]

Ian Nagle having a good game so far in the varsity match

There was also an Ulster academy/ravens young man playing - Daniel Dass.

Don't specifically remember how he played but he must be good at defence on his own try line since thats where cambridge where most of the 2nd half

[Marshes]

Also no offence to 36 year old Mike Ross, but moving him to Connacht in any form of deal for Henshaw would be a slap in the face from the IRFU.

There is no deal. Henshaw is free to go where he wishes.

I agree I don't think it will happen , jut commenting on what was posted above. I'd like commitment from the IRFU that if it is his wish is to stay, it is as financially viable for him as it would be at any other province.

Ye I think he will stay too and Ross would certainly be a good short term signing for Connacht while they search for another TH .I just hate seeing people suggest that this is a decision the IRFU are making. This is his choice at the end of the day just like it was Mike McCarty's or anyone else who has moved between the provinces choice.

I think Ross has said he would prefer to stay in Leinster - he doesn't want to uproot his family for a year (though I suppose he could just commute).

The way it works I think is that he can either retire or go to Connacht.

The IRFU on a par with Cromwell now! That bodes pretty well!

[wayne]

Was anybody from this site watching the B&I Cup match between Munster A and Ospreys PS last night, if they were can they give some insight on how some of our youngsters performed, according to our website it was pretty even up to about the hour mark, it said our O/H missed a few easy kicks especially early on, any insight would be gratefully received.

[profitius]

Was anybody from this site watching the B&I Cup match between Munster A and Ospreys PS last night, if they were can they give some insight on how some of our youngsters performed, according to our website it was pretty even up to about the hour mark, it said our O/H missed a few easy kicks especially early on, any insight would be gratefully received.

I just checked Munsterfans but theres no report on it. Maybe Munster will put up a video during the week.

[wayne]

Was anybody from this site watching the B&I Cup match between Munster A and Ospreys PS last night, if they were can they give some insight on how some of our youngsters performed, according to our website it was pretty even up to about the hour mark, it said our O/H missed a few easy kicks especially early on, any insight would be gratefully received.

I just checked Munsterfans but theres no report on it. Maybe Munster will put up a video during the week.

Thanks Profitius for looking.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Fair to say the IRFU won't even be talking about reducing the amount of NIQ at the provinces for years to come. There is a good chance we will have no teams get through the group stage.

[LondonTiger]

How many season tickets do the provinces sell?

I noticed that yesterdays attendance at Thomond was a very healthy 22k+, but checking attendances over the season they have dropped to half that for some games. Also do they sell different season tickets for Munster as they have the two locations?

[neilthom7]

I know Ulster have drew 14-17.5 thousand this season for home games except the opening game v Ospreys which was during the world cup and I think an early kick off i remember right? that drew 13.5 thousand

[rodders]

Ah well, as Meatloaf said - 2 out of 4 ain't bad.

[the-goon]

In terms of inter provincial moves, where are teams stacked with quality/numbers and where are they missing some? To me, this is how I see it.

Leinster:

Stacked:

Tighthead, Backrow, Back 3

Weak:

Lock, Scrum half

Ulster:

Stacked:

Centre

Weak:

Backrow, Backup fly half, Tight head

Munster:

Stacked:

I would say back row, but there are plenty of injuries at the moment

Weak:

Centre, Fly-half

Connacht

Stacked:

Again an injury crisis makes it header to say, but i'll go with Scrum half.

Weak:

Fly half

With this in mind I do think the following moves would be quite beneficial to Irish rugby as a whole. And where a club loses out hopefully they gain elsewhere.

J Murphy and D Leavy to Ulster
Cave or L. Marshall to Munster, perhaps the other to Leinster with Teo leaving
Cooney to Leinster (as long as Boss and Redden are dropped)
Madigan to Connacht or Munster
Ross to Ulster or Connacht


Any others? Agree, disagree. This is ideal world, and not taking player wishes into account. It's spread out our test quality players around.

[rodders]

Leinster and Munster are stacked with average players and short on quality ones I'd say....

[marty2086]

Ulster:

Stacked:

Centre

Weak:

Backrow, Backup fly half, Tight head

Ulster may have an abundance of centres but I don't think we've ever had Cave, Marshall, Payne, Olding and McCloskey all available at the same time and hopefully Olding will come back to full fitness in the New Year. I've always been of the opinion he should be used as a utility player and could provide cover at 10 if needs be.

At tighthead Luttons looked solid when used this season and hopefully Herbst turned a corner on Friday night, with Ross as third choice and McCall can cover too Ulster aren't as things seemed in the past

[toml]

Not wanting to be a wind up... But surely the big Derby over christmas is Ulster vs Connacht rather than Leinster vs Munster this year.

Connacht are the form team in Ireland, Pat Lam has turned them round from being the 4th province to being a match for anyone in the Pro12

Ulster have had an average start to the season but it appears Les Kiss has had a big influence over the last month and Ulster have gone from looking very average and playing awful rugby to playing very nice heads up rugby and player like Jackson and McCloskey looking dangerous.

Munster appear to be mid rebuilding phase and whilst they still have undoubted quality Murray, Earls, Stander, they don't appear to have the leadership and grit of years gone by. Foley seems to have underwhelmed since his appointment.

Leinster look very average. They have plenty of talented Irish internationals, but watching them play is bloody hard work. Maybe the have the biggest world cup hangover, but Cullen doesn't appear to have added much over MOC and Sexton looks in awful form at the moment. The bright lights are Van der Flier and Fitzgerald in the centre.

In general the appointments of experienced SH coaches appears to have added value, whereas the unexperienced home grown coaches look out of their depth. Ronan O'Gara seems to have his head screwed on and is gaining experience from a different perspective and I reckon he will develop into a top coach. Other coaches getting experience abroad like McCall, Jackman and Davidson look to be developing well in a way they probably wouldn't at home

[Marshes]

Ben Teo off to England for next season: http://www.the42.ie/ben-teo-leinster-worcester-transfer-2515719-Dec2015/

I think this probably paves the way for Henshaw to Leinster no? Maybe see Ringrose move the other way on a loan deal?

[rodders]

Ben Teo off to England for next season: http://www.the42.ie/ben-teo-leinster-worcester-transfer-2515719-Dec2015/

I think this probably paves the way for Henshaw to Leinster no? Maybe see Ringrose move the other way on a loan deal?

Henshaw is a cert but no way Leinster will let Ringrose go - they'd be nuts!

I'd imagine the IRFU would have hoped to persuade Madigan to move, or at least shuffle with Keatley but doesn't look like that will happen.

Teo is a big loss I think. He added a lot of physicality and cutting edge to an otherwise pedestrian Leinster back-line.

[VinceWLB]

When Teo went off against Toulon Leinster didn't have any go forward anymore as well as aggression in defense, i reckon they would have won the game had he stayed on. They complement each other very well with Fitzgerald.

Worcester? You have to laugh at that though.

[Marshes]

Early start for me to today!

Just been reading Nucifora's interview recently regarding movement of players between the provinces. Looks like there was also little support for the Moore to Munster move from the IRFU. Plenty of talk about finding in-house solutions

My questions to posters here is how can we have a system of transfers between the four provinces that is equitable and beneficial for all? How much say would the clubs have in who comes in or out? And what transfers could be made to solve current problems in other provinces? Maybe:

- Henshaw to Leinster?
- Ulster Centre to Munster?
- Leinster Back row to Ulster?
- Decent props to Connacht?

[marty2086]

From an Ulster point of view, we'd love one of Leinsters backrows. SOB would be a decent back up to Chris Henry.

The problem is though that I think Leinsters backrow is the same as Ulsters centre. Plenty of quality there but they are never all available at the same time. Of Cave, Payne, Olding, Marshall, McCloskey and Arnold there are only Marshall and McCloskey available at the minute, come the 6Ns there may only be three available or maybe four at most.

[VinceWLB]

Don't rate Moore, sorry. Munster would be better sticking with Archer who improved dramatically last season and John Ryan who has done well recently. Furlong is a much better prospect imo.

Decent props to Connacht?
In Dennis Buckley they arguably have the best scrummaging loosehead in Ireland (although McCall been great recently) and with Ah You and Nathan White on the tight it doesn't look too shabby, not sure they want a past his sell by date Ross in exchange with Henshaw.

[rodders]

Early start for me to today!

Just been reading Nucifora's interview recently regarding movement of players between the provinces.

I was really impressed with his interview actually - he really clarified a lot of things and it looks to me that there is a bit of a sinister agenda out there in the media at the minute against the IRFU and scapegoating Nucifera in particular with Munster and Leinster recent poor (last 2 seasons) performances.

Really both these clubs are suffering from poor succession planning during their successful periods and replacing high quality players and coaches with lower quality ones.

Success in cyclical and will take some time to rebuild these sides to the levels they were at in the mid - late noughties. The problem is unlike Ulster, based on the last few weeks, neither seem to be even moving in the right direction and look to be still on a downward trajectory.

[Sin é]

Don't be fooled by that interview from Nucifora, Rodders.

Basically, he organised a select press conferences (obviously journos who won't ask awkward questions) and explained how he reviewed his own performance in the world cup - and it was all down to injuries. He moaned about Madigan not getting gametime with Leinster as being the reason why Ireland didn't succeed. He never critiqued the selection policy and why Paddy Jackson wasn't in the mix who was playing regularly at 10? But no, it was all Matt O'Connor's fault because he played Goppert ahead of Madigan last season.

As for Stephen Moore - Munster were obviously trying to bring in a player of stature to try and fill the void of Paul O'Connell with regard to Leadership (who the IRFU & Munster agreed to let leave early) and while Nucifora said he didn't stop them, Munster obviously needed help financially to do so which wasn't forthcoming from the IRFU (Munster lost O'Connell on a Central Contract a year earlier than planned).

[marty2086]

Don't be fooled by that interview from Nucifora, Rodders.

Basically, he organised a select press conferences (obviously journos who won't ask awkward questions) and explained how he reviewed his own performance in the world cup - and it was all down to injuries. He moaned about Madigan not getting gametime with Leinster as being the reason why Ireland didn't succeed. He never critiqued the selection policy and why Paddy Jackson wasn't in the mix who was playing regularly at 10? But no, it was all Matt O'Connor's fault because he played Goppert ahead of Madigan last season.

As for Stephen Moore - Munster were obviously trying to bring in a player of stature to try and fill the void of Paul O'Connell with regard to Leadership (who the IRFU & Munster agreed to let leave early) and while Nucifora said he didn't stop them, Munster obviously needed help financially to do so which wasn't forthcoming from the IRFU (Munster lost O'Connell on a Central Contract a year earlier than planned).

Sin if I'm not mistaken, was it not that POC was going to retire if he didn't take up the Toulon offer?

Munster also had DOC with a year to go on his contract and allowed him to leave early, that wasn't the best decision to take if they were lacking leadership in their ranks

[Sin é]

Don't be fooled by that interview from Nucifora, Rodders.

Basically, he organised a select press conferences (obviously journos who won't ask awkward questions) and explained how he reviewed his own performance in the world cup - and it was all down to injuries. He moaned about Madigan not getting gametime with Leinster as being the reason why Ireland didn't succeed. He never critiqued the selection policy and why Paddy Jackson wasn't in the mix who was playing regularly at 10? But no, it was all Matt O'Connor's fault because he played Goppert ahead of Madigan last season.

As for Stephen Moore - Munster were obviously trying to bring in a player of stature to try and fill the void of Paul O'Connell with regard to Leadership (who the IRFU & Munster agreed to let leave early) and while Nucifora said he didn't stop them, Munster obviously needed help financially to do so which wasn't forthcoming from the IRFU (Munster lost O'Connell on a Central Contract a year earlier than planned).

Sin if I'm not mistaken, was it not that POC was going to retire if he didn't take up the Toulon offer?

Munster also had DOC with a year to go on his contract and allowed him to leave early, that wasn't the best decision to take if they were lacking leadership in their ranks

No, POC was released a year early from his contract.

DOC didn't want to remain in Munster if he wasn't starting games. Similar situation to Stringer. Thats what made them the players they are and Munster wasn't going to stand in their way.

[marty2086]

Don't be fooled by that interview from Nucifora, Rodders.

Basically, he organised a select press conferences (obviously journos who won't ask awkward questions) and explained how he reviewed his own performance in the world cup - and it was all down to injuries. He moaned about Madigan not getting gametime with Leinster as being the reason why Ireland didn't succeed. He never critiqued the selection policy and why Paddy Jackson wasn't in the mix who was playing regularly at 10? But no, it was all Matt O'Connor's fault because he played Goppert ahead of Madigan last season.

As for Stephen Moore - Munster were obviously trying to bring in a player of stature to try and fill the void of Paul O'Connell with regard to Leadership (who the IRFU & Munster agreed to let leave early) and while Nucifora said he didn't stop them, Munster obviously needed help financially to do so which wasn't forthcoming from the IRFU (Munster lost O'Connell on a Central Contract a year earlier than planned).

Sin if I'm not mistaken, was it not that POC was going to retire if he didn't take up the Toulon offer?

Munster also had DOC with a year to go on his contract and allowed him to leave early, that wasn't the best decision to take if they were lacking leadership in their ranks

No, POC was released a year early from his contract.

DOC didn't want to remain in Munster if he wasn't starting games. Similar situation to Stringer. Thats what made them the players they are and Munster wasn't going to stand in their way.

I'm aware he was released but had he not been at least leaning towards retiring before Toulon came in?

From what I read around the situation that was at least implied in places

[Marshes]

Early start for me to today!

Just been reading Nucifora's interview recently regarding movement of players between the provinces.

I was really impressed with his interview actually - he really clarified a lot of things and it looks to me that there is a bit of a sinister agenda out there in the media at the minute against the IRFU and scapegoating Nucifera in particular with Munster and Leinster recent poor (last 2 seasons) performances.

Really both these clubs are suffering from poor succession planning during their successful periods and replacing high quality players and coaches with lower quality ones.

Success in cyclical and will take some time to rebuild these sides to the levels they were at in the mid - late noughties. The problem is unlike Ulster, based on the last few weeks, neither seem to be even moving in the right direction and look to be still on a downward trajectory.  

Yeah I was also pretty impressed rodders, he was making a lot of the right noises and to be honest want someone a bit hard headed to cut through the provincialism. I think the media are often as invested in that when it suits them, particularly if they can make the noises that they saw the storm coming before everyone else.

I think we do need to be smarter about how we share resources across the island when a problem could be solved without bringing in a ringer, simply that it benefits the national side in the long run if some players can get around the bottlenecks and continue their develop.

It might be short term pain for long term gain for Munster and Leinster, after you build successful teams the transition will pinch a bit. But I don't think bringing in players of Moore's quality will be the answer. Concentrating NIQ resources to bring in big quality is the way forward I think, with a bit of critical thinking about how what is available in Ireland could be used to fill the other gaps.

[Sin é]

Early start for me to today!

Just been reading Nucifora's interview recently regarding movement of players between the provinces.

I was really impressed with his interview actually - he really clarified a lot of things and it looks to me that there is a bit of a sinister agenda out there in the media at the minute against the IRFU and scapegoating Nucifera in particular with Munster and Leinster recent poor (last 2 seasons) performances.

Really both these clubs are suffering from poor succession planning during their successful periods and replacing high quality players and coaches with lower quality ones.

Success in cyclical and will take some time to rebuild these sides to the levels they were at in the mid - late noughties. The problem is unlike Ulster, based on the last few weeks, neither seem to be even moving in the right direction and look to be still on a downward trajectory.  

Yeah I was also pretty impressed rodders, he was making a lot of the right noises and to be honest want someone a bit hard headed to cut through the provincialism. I think the media are often as invested in that when it suits them, particularly if they can make the noises that they saw the storm coming before everyone else.

I think we do need to be smarter about how we share resources across the island when a problem could be solved without bringing in a ringer, simply that it benefits the national side in the long run if some players can get around the bottlenecks and continue their develop.

It might be short term pain for long term gain for Munster and Leinster, after you build successful teams the transition will pinch a bit. But I don't think bringing in players of Moore's quality will be the answer. Concentrating NIQ resources to bring in big quality is the way forward  I think, with a bit of critical thinking about how what is available in Ireland could be used to fill the other gaps.

I disagree with you. The national side is also chronically short of leaders - they need to learn that from somewhere and they are not going to pick up anything in leadership/decision making stakes from the likes of Saili, Teo, Bundi etc. (who are actually all sort of failures in that they are not first choice for their country). Mark Chisolm is a good buy as a player, but he is just out of a 3 year battle fighting relegation against Bourgoine. You need more guys like Brad Thorn, Howlett, Pienaar to inject confidence into teams in transition. It could very easily slip to getting used to losing and that will affect the national squad.

Interesting piece by Gordon D'Arcy in IT where he described how Leinster got used to losing until Cheika stopped the bus in the middle of Dublin and lay into them for getting over a loss so easily. Cheika brought in a couple of winner to get that mentality going in Leinster.

PS - i think Nucifora is just a front man for Schmidt - he might have control over the coaching staff, but he has little control over the players and they will walk. A lot of players coming out of contract at the moment who are taking their time resigning and if you think any of them (particularly the younger guys who don't have wives/kids) will not hang around if the provinces are not successful. Why would say Paddy Butler (who moved to Pau and getting very good reviews in France) move to Ulster for gametime when a) he will be paid better in France and b) he will have an option of moving back to Munster in a couple of years?

Similarly with regard to JJ Hanrahan. Why would he have moved to Connacht when there is no way Connacht/IRFU would entice him to stay because a) he is never going to get a chance with Ireland/Schmidt and b) probably be offered half of what Northampton will pay him?

[Notch]

Nucifora is like the bogeyman. Lots of stories, but no-one has actually seen his handiwork first hand.

[Notch]

Seems like the only thing we have proof of is him blocking Munster from getting into a bidding war for a player who will remain a current international. Seems they were allowed to offer him an amount proportionate to his availability and that offer fell short.

If the same rules were applied, Ulster would probably not have been allowed to sign Pienaar so I have mixed feelings about it. There is no doubt Pienaar has been excellent, but not as excellent as he could have been without the mental and physical fatigue of a 12-month season. The demands of playing club rugby in the NH and test rugby in the SH would only be more intense on a front row player. Despite this, Pienaar has been a game-breaking player and made a huge contribution. But landing someone like him is the absolute best case scenario when it comes to this kind of deal- you couldn't ask for a more dedicated, hard-working and loyal overseas player. For every Pienaar there are 9 more guys who would treat their club rugby contract as a pension fund. There is sound logic for both spending the cash and saying its a bad deal.

Personally I would say if Munster have the money for a player like that you should be throwing it at coaches. They've taken a big backwards step in terms of coaching, which reminds me of Ulsters constant failure to identify the right man at the top and the handing of important jobs to coaches who've barely set foot outside the province. Ulster for years went for the player-led winning mentality route while neglecting the coaching side and it got us close, but never fully over the line. Senior players are important, but without a top-level coach its not necessarily a winning strategy. Don't think guys like Brad Thorn or Rocky Elsom would have given Leinster that extra push over the line if they were coming into an O'Connor or Cullen coached team, as opposed to a Cheika or Schmidt outfit.

Thats not to say Foley or Cullen don't have the makings of being good coaches. But really, I think starting at your home province is not the way to go at all. If you've spent most of your whole playing career at a team, and then you go straight into coaching them, you're not going to be bringing anything new to the table. And whats more, you're not going to be exposed to any new ideas either. Its just a recipe for stagnation, both for the coach and the team. Better to go off to somewhere else and build your knowledge and reputation like Jackman, McCall and O'Gara.

[Sin é]

Nucifora is like the bogeyman. Lots of stories, but no-one has actually seen his handiwork first hand.

How about Munster signing two players (one Ireland qualified) that they are not allowed play unless everyone else is injured?

[Sin é]

Seems like the only thing we have proof of is him blocking Munster from getting into a bidding war for a player who will remain a current international. Seems they were allowed to offer him an amount proportionate to his availability and that offer fell short.

And you know there was going to be a bidding war? Moore has long expressed his desire to play for an Irish Province (probably because he is an Irishman with very close ties here).

If the same rules were applied, Ulster would probably not have been allowed to sign Pienaar so I have mixed feelings about it. There is no doubt Pienaar has been excellent, but not as excellent as he could have been without the mental and physical fatigue of a 12-month season. The demands of playing club rugby in the NH and test rugby in the SH would only be more intense on a front row player. Despite this, Pienaar has been a game-breaking player and made a huge contribution. But landing someone like him is the absolute best case scenario when it comes to this kind of deal- you couldn't ask for a more dedicated, hard-working and loyal overseas player. For every Pienaar there are 9 more guys who would treat their club rugby contract as a pension fund. There is sound logic for both spending the cash and saying its a bad deal.

Ulster might have needed Pienaar to play a lot more than he actually does, but Munster would not needed the same from Moore as there are plenty of hookers who could continue their development in his absence (which is now being done in his complete absence). Playing international rugby should not have been an issue for Munster.

Personally I would say if Munster have the money for a player like that you should be throwing it at coaches. They've taken a big backwards step in terms of coaching, which reminds me of Ulsters constant failure to identify the right man at the top and the handing of important jobs to coaches who've barely set foot outside the province. Ulster for years went for the player-led winning mentality route while neglecting the coaching side and it got us close, but never fully over the line. Senior players are important, but without a top-level coach its not necessarily a winning strategy. Don't think guys like Brad Thorn or Rocky Elsom would have given Leinster that extra push over the line if they were coming into an O'Connor or Cullen coached team, as opposed to a Cheika or Schmidt outfit.

No decent coach would touch any Irish Province with Schmidt & Nucifora dictating everything. You are lucky you got Les Kiss who has the inside track (knows the system )

As for the input of senior players - here is an interesting quote from Warren Gatland about that win in Paris published today on the the42.ie

Warren Gatland: We brought back Mick Galwey. You couldn’t deny the Munster element. Galwey, Anthony Foley, Peter Clohessy – when those guys put the Irish jersey on they could go to another level and it took me a while to understand that. They weren’t the best players but they could get themselves to an emotional pitch that others couldn’t. The Munster factor was a turning point and bringing in Mick had a big influence. He was brilliant at getting the best out of other players.

Well worth a read:

http://www.the42.ie/brian-odriscoll-no-borders-2457694-Dec2015/

Thats not to say Foley or Cullen don't have the makings of being good coaches. But really, I think starting at your home province is not the way to go at all. If you've spent most of your whole playing career at a team, and then you go straight into coaching them, you're not going to be bringing anything new to the table. And whats more, you're not going to be exposed to any new ideas either. Its just a recipe for stagnation, both for the coach and the team. Better to go off to somewhere else and build your knowledge and reputation like Jackman, McCall and O'Gara.

Pretty much every coach fails with Ulster, so its hardly surprising that McCall was successful elsewhere. Maybe Ulster keep blaming the coaches for their lack of success?

You forget that Foley has had several coaching influencers in his career - Munster have had a procession of Southern Hemisphere coaches which is probably a lot better than spending time elsewhere - i.e., whats the point in coaching in France when you can buy in any player you want, when in Ireland you have to make do with what you have. If McCall came back to Ulster, he would fail. Don't be fooled by ROG heading off the France - he is just having a bit of downtime after a very pressurised career. I doubt if Jackman (despite the huge budget he has) would be any more successful than Leo is at the moment with Leinster.

[profitius]

Nucifora is doing a good job. Munster signing Stephen Moore would be madness. It sounds desperate so its lucky Nucifora blocked the move. Mike Sherry is just coming into form now and could very well break into the Ireland squad for the 6 nations.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Mike Sherry, alongside Stander and Cronin, has been one of the bright sparks in a rather lacklustre Munster pack. Very happy to see him back as I have always rated him highly. A very intelligent and hard working player who has been severely blighted by injuries.

[Sin é]

Nucifora is doing a good job. Munster signing Stephen Moore would be madness. It sounds desperate so its lucky Nucifora blocked the move. Mike Sherry is just coming into form now and could very well break into the Ireland squad for the 6 nations.

It just happened that Stephen Moore is a hooker - its his leadership that is badly needed. Poor old CJ is carrying the team on his own.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Whatever about Moore, the recruitment in the provinces has been a shambles in recent years especially in Leinster. Signing players like Goodman, Berquist,Zane Kirchner, Triggs, Maks Van Dyk (seriously wtf?) etc instead of even quality PI or other tier 2 players has been infuriating. Very poor scouting.

[Sin é]

Mike Sherry, alongside Stander and Cronin, has been one of the bright sparks in a rather lacklustre Munster pack. Very happy to see him back as I have always rated him highly. A very intelligent and hard working player who has been severely blighted by injuries.

Duncan Casey was overplayed last year and is now crocked. The same might happen to Sherry and I'd worry with his injury record.

Its not as if Sherry wouldn't get a look in if Moore had come - firstly he would miss a fair bit of the season on international duty and secondly, its a 23 man game now - all props, hookers and scrumhalfs have been selected for Ireland on a similar rotation.

Munster actually succeeded in giving plenty of gametime to developing props with BJ in situ, so its not as if they ignored their development requirements.

EDIT: shouldn't Jerry Flannery get all the credit for Sherry & Cronin (and John Ryan put in a good showing last week) The only coaching experience he has is with the Arsenal Academy!

[Notch]

And you know there was going to be a bidding war? Moore has long expressed his desire to play for an Irish Province (probably because he is an Irishman with very close ties here).

"(Coach) Stephen Larkham and I worked extremely hard to create a deal that was acceptable to Moore and his agent.We were given a deadline and moved heaven and earth to satisfy that deadline, including late night calls to South Africa where Moore was holidaying. After speaking with Stephen personally, he spoke passionately about wanting to remain a Brumbie and pleaded with us to come up with an offer to meet his demands and counter offers from Europe.

He clearly expressed the desire to stay in Canberra, to extend his career through to the next Rugby World Cup, and ultimately finish his career here. We met every one of those demands, so we were surprised and disappointed to find out he has agreed to join the Reds."

Sounds like a bidding war to me.

As for the input of senior players - here is an interesting quote from Warren Gatland about that win in Paris published today on the the42.ie

Of course the entire culture that produced those players was around for years before Gatland and we won nothing- in fact, we were somewhat of a laughing stock in world rugby. It was only under his tenure we started to challenge. We always had leaders and good players who went on Lions tours but that wasn't enough. It was foreign coaches coming in at the start of professionalism who kickstarted our game. Of course senior experienced players are important, as are coaches, but you need to get both of those ingredients right. And you already have the players- not O'Connell level leaders but who is? Guys like Murray, O'Mahony, Donnacha Ryan should be stepping up. Thats not to say that a few marquee players won't help- they are important, probably very important. But the IRFU is smart enough not to throw good money after bad and it might be a bit of a transitional period for a few years while they and the Munster branch find the right man to take you forward. Thats what happened with Ulster. We were underfunded for a long time because of our CEO being just not at the calibre to take us forward and any money passed on being poorly spent. I wonder how Garrett Fitzgerald is viewed in Dublin, personally. I think the whole Munster set-up could use a root and branch review.

But don't worry, I'm sure Foley will lead you to the promised land. And if he does I'm genuinely happy. Seeing Munster back to their best would be great for the national team. I'm not happy if he makes a pigs ear of it, but so long as he doesn't do so badly that he chases away your best talent I really don't care that much. Tbh, the biggest problem I have with Foley is the way Hanrahan was handled. Two sides to that story but was somewhat perturbed he was happy to put all his eggs in the Keatley basket.

[Sin é]

[quote="Notch"]

And you know there was going to be a bidding war? Moore has long expressed his desire to play for an Irish Province (probably because he is an Irishman with very close ties here).

"(Coach) Stephen Larkham and I worked extremely hard to create a deal that was acceptable to Moore and his agent.We were given a deadline and moved heaven and earth to satisfy that deadline, including late night calls to South Africa where Moore was holidaying. After speaking with Stephen personally, he spoke passionately about wanting to remain a Brumbie and pleaded with us to come up with an offer to meet his demands and counter offers from Europe.

He clearly expressed the desire to stay in Canberra, to extend his career through to the next Rugby World Cup, and ultimately finish his career here. We met every one of those demands, so we were surprised and disappointed to find out he has agreed to join the Reds."

Sounds like a bidding war to me.

Seriously, you think Munster would have been throwing money at Moore? Lets not forget both Munster & Leinster turned down Bundi Aki because they thought he was too expensive. Connacht paid 40K a year more. No wonder Moore stayed in Australia if he was only offers he got were from Munster

As for the input of senior players - here is an interesting quote from Warren Gatland about that win in Paris published today on the the42.ie

Of course the entire culture that produced those players was around for years before Gatland and we won nothing- in fact, we were somewhat of a laughing stock in world rugby. It was only under his tenure we started to challenge.

If you read the article in the42.ie you would have read that Mick Galwey hadn't been involved much with Ireland for about 3 years up to then - so no, he certainly wasn't around. (between 1994 and 2000 Mick Galwey had two sub appearances and 1 start for Ireland).

Many of that Munster team were to become the mainstay of the Ireland team after beating Ireland on the way to the world cup in 99. None of the following were around much up to then: Marcus Horan, Frankie Sheahan, John Hayes, Mick Galwey, Alan Quinlan, David Wallace, Anthony Foley, Peter Stringer & Ronan O'Gara.

Gatland said in that piece he was going to be sacked if Ireland lost to Scotland. Some revolution in his coaching skills in a very short time.

We always had leaders and good players who went on Lions tours but that wasn't enough. It was foreign coaches coming in at the start of professionalism who kickstarted our game. Of course senior experienced players are important, as are coaches, but you need to get both of those ingredients right.

Gatland wouldn't be noted for throwing compliments around to anyone, so Mick Galwey must have been very impressive.

And you already have the players- not O'Connell level leaders but who is? Guys like Murray, O'Mahony, Donnacha Ryan should be stepping up. Thats not to say that a few marquee players won't help- they are important, probably very important. But the IRFU is smart enough not to throw good money after bad and it might be a bit of a transitional period for a few years while they and the Munster branch find the right man to take you forward. Thats what happened with Ulster. We were underfunded for a long time because of our CEO being just not at the calibre to take us forward and any money passed on being poorly spent. I wonder how Garrett Fitzgerald is viewed in Dublin, personally. I think the whole Munster set-up could use a root and branch review.

Stephen Moore could be an O'Connell level leader (or close to him anyway). O'Mahony will be another O'Connell (and he is sorely missed by both Munster and Ireland). Conor Murray isn't a natural leader. Neither is Donnacha Ryan.

But don't worry, I'm sure Foley will lead you to the promised land. And if he does I'm genuinely happy. Seeing Munster back to their best would be great for the national team. I'm not happy if he makes a pigs ear of it, but so long as he doesn't do so badly that he chases away your best talent I really don't care that much. Tbh, the biggest problem I have with Foley is the way Hanrahan was handled. Two sides to that story but was somewhat perturbed he was happy to put all his eggs in the Keatley basket.

Keatley would not have been a problem for JJ. JJ wanted to play 10 only and that wasn't possible. He was offered a 3 year contract while Keatley was offered a 2 year one. I'd imagine his big worry was Tyler Bleyendaal. If JJ thought he wasn't up to getting ahead of Keatley, his problem at Northampton is worse and he certainly isn't been given any special treatment. If he had hung around he would be the starting outhalf at Munster with probably a chance at getting into the 6Ns squad while at the moment he is rotated more at Northampton than he ever was at Munster.

Anyway, I think he will be back soon enough.

[Marshes]

I think Moore is not the quality that Nucifora was talking about or what Munster need, and I agree with him. After Best, Ireland have Strauss who is injury prone and Cronin who is great in the loose but inconsistent with his darts. Do Munster or Ireland really need 32 year old Moore blocking up the way for IQ hookers? Moore is not POC level leader, and not the level of quality that provinces should bother looking at.

[JmD]

I think Moore is not the quality that Nucifora was talking about or what Munster need, and I agree with him. After Best, Ireland have Strauss who is injury prone and Cronin who is great in the loose but inconsistent with his darts. Do Munster or Ireland really need 32 year old Moore blocking up the way for IQ hookers? Moore is not POC level leader, and not the level of quality that provinces should bother looking at.

Stephen Moore, captain of the number 2 international side in the world, is not a good enough leader...

[mikey_dragon]

Moore is certainly a great leader and world class player, but no provincial team, as far as I am aware are in need of a hooker. There's also the point of looking to develop more Irish players in that position that was previously mentioned. I would back the IRFU stance on this one. It has been a while since an Irish team signed a marquee player with an identical calibre to Howlett, hasn't it? But I guess the strength of Irish rugby has grown a little since then and there is less room for these type of players.

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