Welsh World Cup Squad part 2

First topic message reminder :

Anyone else think Ll Williams and Anscombe did well when they came on? Would definitely take them over Phillips and Hook at the moment.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

This is why I didn't want to see Hook called up, or (even more bizarre) Patchell. You have to play full back regularly to get that sense of where you'll need to be in defence.

Patchell does play FB regularly?...

He's never a Test full back though. I'm a fan of his, but he's an outside half, regardless of where they play him.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:He's never a Test full back though.

Ahh - OK. Good point.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Priestland is second choice whether you rate him or not; nobody rates him

That's clearly not true!

Okay, nobody rates him apart from Scarlets' fans. If our coach rated him highly then he would have more time in the fly-half jersey. Look to the last time he started for Wales as to why he will only feature as a desperate last resort . Cue people telling me "but he's amazing cuz he's going to the mighty Bath RFC innit."

I'm not a Scarlets fan.

And if you think I am, youre deluded

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Whats our starter back 3 now

I go for Amos, North and Williams and if fit its a killer attacking back 3.

We must preserve Biggar, problem we now have is familiarity with Davies but I am not sure who gets the nod at 9 now.

Right now my starting XV v Eng is this

Gethin, Owens, Lee if fit
AWJ/CHarters
Tips, Warbs, Faletau
? and Biggar
Doc and Scott
Sanjay, Amos and North

You thinking Sanjay at 14 or 15 ?

Def 15, he is awesome under the high ball on the counter and i think Amos would represent an easy target at 15 v England, however Amos simply must play but I think Cuthbert will. I am shocked that Anscombe hasn't been brought back injury or not as i feel he offers an extra boot if required and covers 10/15 but rest assured if Biggar goes down he will be,

Fair if you both rate Priestland, but he is not a good player at all. Look at his last test match start. Acknowledge the fact that he rarely makes it off the bench because he is the player most likely to lose Wales a test match single-handedly. Also acknowledge the fact that fans (yourselves included) can openly admit that if we lose Biggar in the group stages and have to rely on Priestland then we certainly will not be progressing from the pool - this is why I doubt that many fans actually rate him.

Gwlad wrote:

munkian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Whats our starter back 3 now

I go for Amos, North and Williams and if fit its a killer attacking back 3.

We must preserve Biggar, problem we now have is familiarity with Davies but I am not sure who gets the nod at 9 now.

Right now my starting XV v Eng is this

Gethin, Owens, Lee if fit
AWJ/CHarters
Tips, Warbs, Faletau
? and Biggar
Doc and Scott
Sanjay, Amos and North

You thinking Sanjay at 14 or 15 ?

Def 15, he is awesome under the high ball on the counter and i think Amos would represent an easy target at 15 v England, however Amos simply must play but I think Cuthbert will. I am shocked that Anscombe hasn't been brought back injury or not as i feel he offers an extra boot if required and covers 10/15 but rest assured if Biggar goes down he will be,

I'd be tempted tp put Baldwin at Hooker and Gareth Davies hopefully starts at 9

You wonder that if when Cuthbert gets the nod against the mighty Uruguay and bags a couple tries, that his form in a certain somebody's eyes will have miraculously 'returned.'

Gatland 'excuse the pun' likes his guys big and am sure he would love for both North and Cuthbert to be on form but one certainly isn't and the others defence isn't much better.

I fully expect Cuthbert to start against Uruguay with North being rested taht way at least one of the big boys will be on the wing.

Well, so long as Cuthbert isn't a main-stay in the team I'm okay with that. England, Aus and possibly the Fijian fliers will have a field day with him. I think with the way it is now, North will start, or at least be on the bench.

[quote="mikey_dragon"]
Priestland is second choice whether you rate him or not; and so he should be as Biggar has been outstanding
nobody rates him, What!!? have you got a crystal ball or can you read everyone's mind?
even the people that claim he is a good player are extremely hopeful of Biggar not picking up a tournament-ending injury. and yes all Welsh fans would hope that and the same with Jonathan Davies, 1/2p, Webb, AWJ because they are outstanding players but doesnt mean they are less worried than if Biggar was injured.
If they rate Priestland then surely they'd be less worried? I personally don't believe that the Priest is a good player and have only seen him play well in glimpses since the end of 2011 - most other matches (especially in a Wales jersey) he has been an absolute disaster. By the end of 2012 he was the complete disaster and only seemed to get worse ....... Can you give actual moments in any one match he was soley to blame in any single match in the Welsh jersey.

Even Ryan Jones, Warburton, Rob Jones, Gats, Howely thought the so called fans who made him the continual scapegoat for the least thing weren't true fans and at best tribal idiots who would rather deride a player from another region rather than get behind a committed loyal Welsh player.

I haven't seen The Priest play that much in the 2014/15 season but by all accounts he has been consistently good, perhaps not outstanding and not back to the 2011 pre-WC form but good enough for Bath, Wasps, Northants, and Clermont to have made serious bids for him.

So taking into account Patchell missed 7 out of 9 conversions and missed a couple of pens, and Priestland has pretty much impressed in 2015 pre-WC training, where is your rationale on "Priestland is Pants"

mikey_dragon wrote:Fair if you both rate Priestland, but he is not a good player at all

Opinion, not fact.

mikey_dragon wrote:He rarely makes it off the bench because he is the player most likely to lose Wales a test match single-handedly.

Opinion, not fact.

mikey_dragon wrote:If we lose Biggar in the group stages and have to rely on Priestland then we certainly will not be progressing from the pool

Opinion, not fact.

mikey_dragon wrote:You wonder that if when Cuthbert gets the nod against the mighty Uruguay and bags a couple tries, that his form in a certain somebody's eyes will have miraculously 'returned.'

Its a bit weird how May and Cuthbert aren't ever both in form at same time...

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Fair if you both rate Priestland, but he is not a good player at all

Opinion, not fact.

mikey_dragon wrote:He rarely makes it off the bench because he is the player most likely to lose Wales a test match single-handedly.

Opinion, not fact.

mikey_dragon wrote:If we lose Biggar in the group stages and have to rely on Priestland then we certainly will not be progressing from the pool

Opinion, not fact.

In fairness, basically the whole point of this board is to share opinions. If you are just interested in facts, try here - http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html

flyhalffactory wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Priestland is second choice whether you rate him or not; and so he should be as Biggar has been outstanding
nobody rates him, What!!? have you got a crystal ball or can you read everyone's mind?
even the people that claim he is a good player are extremely hopeful of Biggar not picking up a tournament-ending injury. and yes all Welsh fans would hope that and the same with Jonathan Davies, 1/2p, Webb, AWJ because they are outstanding players but doesnt mean they are less worried than if Biggar was injured.
If they rate Priestland then surely they'd be less worried? I personally don't believe that the Priest is a good player and have only seen him play well in glimpses since the end of 2011 - most other matches (especially in a Wales jersey) he has been an absolute disaster. By the end of 2012 he was the complete disaster and only seemed to get worse ....... Can you give actual moments in any one match he was soley to blame in any single match in the Welsh jersey.

Even Ryan Jones, Warburton, Rob Jones, Gats, Howely thought the so called fans who made him the continual scapegoat for the least thing weren't true fans and at best tribal idiots who would rather deride a player from another region rather than get behind a committed loyal Welsh player.

I haven't seen The Priest play that much in the 2014/15 season but by all accounts he has been consistently good, perhaps not outstanding and not back to the 2011 pre-WC form but good enough for Bath, Wasps, Northants, and Clermont to have made serious bids for him.

So taking into account Patchell missed 7 out of 9 conversions and missed a couple of pens, and Priestland has pretty much impressed in 2015 pre-WC training, where is your rationale on "Priestland is Pants"

It's quite simple. If Priest is highly regarded then supporters wouldn't have their stomachs churning every time he touches the ball.

We can deal with the loss of JD2, Webb and Halfpenny. Possibly not AWJ even thought he has able deputies, it's due to the fact he brings a lot more. We simply can't deal with losing Biggar and having to rely on Priestland as first choice. Time and again he has proved he can't play rugby at this level.

Matches against Australia and the recent one against Fiji just off the top of my head. But I guess that will be fine in your eyes when you inevitably reply stating that 'Evan Bloggs' also didn't play well.

The fans didn't make him into a media scapegoat. The fans were flabbergasted at his continued selection despite his poor form, especially ahead of Biggar. Those names actually then used the media to try and justify the selection. It didn't work for the fans who have eyes and a brain.

If you haven't seen him play much then you can't possibly say that he's been consistently good. He has been consistently erratic and often gives an error-strewn performance. The rest there is just predictable drivel.

I'm not sure why you're bringing Patchell into it? That's typical of a Priestland supporter though, try and big him up by bringing down other players. Ah,the old cliché - Priestland has apparently impressed in training (where did you read that btw?). That says all I need to know about your 'argument.'

Priestland is not 'highly regarded'….he had a great RWC 2011 and then has gone off the boil, he is ponderous in possession and apt to lose the ball in contact. He is indecisive and lacks confidence. He also isn't a great kicker.

As soon as Anscombe shows his worth and has the chance he will overtake him at 10.

I believe that Anscombe's cameo was a more assured and more complete fly-half performance - that is total opposite to Priestland's performances in a Wales jersey for the last year! Don't you just love being bored to death for having a valid opinion Gwlad.

Gwlad wrote:Priestland is not 'highly regarded'….he had a great RWC 2011 and then has gone off the boil, he is ponderous in possession and apt to lose the ball in contact. He is indecisive and lacks confidence. He also isn't a great kicker.

As soon as Anscombe shows his worth and has the chance he will overtake him at 10.

Who are these people?
Bath, Wasps, Clermont, Northants, off the top of my head all made serious bids for him in 2014, even considering he had a serious injury around that time, also Ryan Jones, Howley, Gatland, Rob Jones all called a small section of the Welsh crowd and the internet trolls a disgrace, so I would say to you who are these people who dont regard him highly.

Gatland even said he had a decent game against Australia!, so how come Gats says one thing and a few of you on here says another.... perhaps Gats doesnt know what he is talking about.
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/11594964.Warren_Gatland__Wales_fly_half_Rhys_Priestland_can_put_two_fingers_up_to_his_critics/

Opinions are great and I certainly think Priestland is a confidence player and if he could get back to the creative innovative 2011 form he is far away your best 10, but personally I dont think he will unless he doesn't read any social media whilst playing international rugby. Biggar is in outstanding form but Priestland if supported wont let you guys down.

mikey_dragon wrote:I believe that Anscombe's cameo was a more assured and more complete fly-half performance - that is total opposite to Priestland's performances in a Wales jersey for the last year! Don't you just love being bored to death for having a valid opinion Gwlad.

Provide actual instances because I cannae recall them

Trying to argue that one person's opinion that a player is not highly regarded is wrong is intrinsically flawed. YOU think he is, Gats thinks he is….is that why Gats stuck with him for ages and ages, he was Gats man, before dropping him for Biggar who was 10 when we beat SA for the first time in 15 years last autumn.

Priestland had his chance and blew it. he was good, in fact very good, at RWC 2011. Since then he has been very very disappointing for Wales

Priestland may not be as good a kicker as Biggar. But he is the only other player that Wales have who has international experience. That i know of any way. Some one may prove me wrong.

Gwlad wrote:Trying to argue that one person's opinion that a player is not highly regarded is wrong is intrinsically flawed. YOU think he is, Gats thinks he is….is that why Gats stuck with him for ages and ages, he was Gats man, before dropping him for Biggar who was 10 when we beat SA for the first time in 15 years last autumn.

Priestland had his chance and blew it. he was good, in fact very good, at RWC 2011. Since then he has been very very disappointing for Wales

Its the polar opposite of being intrinsically flawed, I have qualified my reply by providing evidence that various rugby professionals by their actions i.e. highly regarded serious transfer bids and individual (ex professional players, coaches, commentators) comments in the press to qualify that he must be highly regarded by at least a section of professionals in the actual game, in other words not just Gatland, who by the way at the time was on Lions duty and didnt have any input into the selection of the Welsh team. You have just made a sweeping statement "not highly regarded" without any basis of evidence to back it up...... In other words its YOUR opinion. My opinion is Biggar is by far the best 10 in Wales for the last three years but Priestland wont let you down.

Disappointing!....... Do you know in the Australia v Wales 2012 first test where he was crucified for two diabolical handling errors where tries were beckoning, Shaun Edwards said if it wasnt for Priestlands great defensive performance (9 out of 9 nailed tackles) Wales would have been in a much worst position

bbc wrote:"We're looking for a big performance from Rhys," said Howley.
"It was Rhys Priestland's best defensive performance in an international jersey last week.

Yes he was pi55 poor on two vital occasions in that game, and in areas which are regarded as his strength, but he was excellent in other areas (defence) but it seems people have selective memories

Why if he is so great has Gatland finally given up on him as starter after persisting for years with him?

Because he had a serious injury, Hook didnt cut it, and Biggar is/was the form 10 even when Priestland was selected at 10 in 2012 took his chance for an extended run and proved he is the man in the pivotal role

Ok fly you're a Priestland fan i get it…most Welsh fans aren't anymore.

Not so much a fan just like to see qualifications of opinions.

On the scottish thread we have a similar issue with Weir being selected ahead of Jackson. But Finn Russell is our number 1 choice as flyhalf because he plays ahead of Weir both at same club and in the national team. However the issue is Jackson v Weir and we seem to qualifiy our opinions based on actual game time. Not "most Scottish fans" dont like Weir or Jackson.

I would suggest that you havent met most Welsh fans to ask opinion!.... But I might be wrong bud

Not so much a fan just like to see qualifications of opinions.

On the scottish thread we have a similar issue with Weir being selected ahead of Jackson. But Finn Russell is our number 1 choice as flyhalf because he plays ahead of Weir both at same club and in the national team. However the issue is Jackson v Weir and we seem to qualifiy our opinions based on actual game time. Not "most Scottish fans" dont like Weir or Jackson.

I would suggest that you havent met most Welsh fans to ask opinion!.... But I might be wrong bud

Not so much a fan just like to see qualifications of opinions.

On the scottish thread we have a similar issue with Weir being selected ahead of Jackson. But Finn Russell is our number 1 choice as flyhalf because he plays ahead of Weir both at same club and in the national team. However the issue is Jackson v Weir and we seem to qualifiy our opinions based on actual game time. Not "most Scottish fans" dont like Weir or Jackson.

I would suggest that you havent met most Welsh fans to ask opinion!.... But I might be wrong bud

ah i see its like that is it…post 3 times and it has more gravitas?!!

Joking aside i am sure you haven't met most Welsh fans either and there is no debate here because it has been polarized by silly assertions that one person's opinion is righter than another's

Fact is Gats persisted with him and finally gave up. Biggar has come into his own at 10 and is a country mile ahead of Priestland. i have no confidence in prietsland, nor does Gats and, worst of all, nor does he have confidence in himself…roll on Anscombe.

Thats using a stupid mobile with chubby fingers instead of a lappy... Sorry.

So back to the "facts".

Gatland has got confidence in him otherwise he would have chosen half a dozen other young flyhalfs as the back up to Biggar.

Joking aside one part of my career a few years ago was to "advise" the Welsh Assy and yes I talked fairly in depth with a fair few players and administrators and I went down to the "Library" when Hook was the temporary king who was just about to be ousted by a much too cocky pup (according to the so called fickle welsh armchair fans).called Dan Bigger and if the Os were not playing in Swansea I went midweek to see the Scarlets and Schlong.

And yes I have many welsh fans blues dragons ospreys and scarlets I am sure most would think that Priestland based on last seasons Scarlets form is not as gash as "all the welsh fans"

IF and I know its a big IF bit IF Priestland could find his 2011 form then his style of play and the way he plays the game very flat and on the gain line is what Gatland likes as it encourages Roberts and others to run on to the ball at pace.

Problem being he hasn't found that form though was in good form for the Scarlets towards end of last season. Biggar is clearly No1 and at the moment I would still go with Priestland as 2nd choice.

I didn't and still don't agree with the way Anscombe was brought over and handed a DC etc but I think if he is given time then he could seriously challenge Biggar. I hope Owen Williams isn't cast aside either.

Truth is like him (rate him) or not, Priest is the second best fly half Wales have available to them for the RWC.

These back and forth continuous posts get a little tired some to be honest. As SS says, regardless of what you think, Priestland will be backup fly half.
I would rather discuss the merits of the hookers, back row or the right wing berth!

I think neither of the hookers will let us down, Baldwin was in great form last year and really stepped up to the mark. Owens I think is the more complete all rounder but I would be happy with either starting.

Amos would be my choice to start on the wing now and for me our best backrow is still Lydiate Faletau and Warburton

I have always thought that barring the 30-3 match, Tipuric has not shined strong enough when he has started big games. I would still be happier with the added physicality of Lydiate.

For everyone saying that Australia play two opensides, they are at 7 and 8. They play Fardy at 6, a real big tough workhorse.

Lydiate always gets my vote Chris, his defence allows the other to concentrate on their own roles and a lot of our attacks start with his defence.

Right wing is an interesting conundrum. If Liam Williams slots in at fifteen where, many of us previously preferred him, who will take the vacated birth?

Walker is an exciting prospect, Cuthbert can do a great job if he gets his form and improves his defence, Amos is also a talented guy and he gives us cover should Williams need to leave the fullback roll.

I would be quite tempted to give walker a go, Amos to bench and see if his eye for a gap that he made his name with at the Ospreys can prove an extra strong in our bow.

I am a bit concerned with having An easy game first up we will see Cuthbert paper the cracks with numerous easy tries and sneak in the first choice side.

As for the back row, especially after the Italy game, Tips and king will get a run out along side Taulupe in the 'easy' games, with Warburton and Lydiate being kept safe for the crunch matches. So unless one of the normal back row are unavailable I can't see them starting the big games.

And knowing Gatland, with the exception of Amos/Cuthbert and Owens/Baldwin (one starting the other on the bench), I think the side for England and Australia has been picked already, regardless of performances in other games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Lydiate always gets my vote Chris, his defence allows the other to concentrate on their own roles and a lot of our attacks start with his defence.

We need the right tight 5 v England to allow Tipuric AND Warbs in so that they can control breakdown. I think Lydiate is the perfect bench option and agree on his defensive supremacy but we need to go on the offensive v England i think Tips brings an x factor both in attack and also in defense.

I'd like to see this v Eng

Jenkins Owens Lee
AWJ Charters
Warbs, Faletau, TIps
? and Biggar
North
DOC and SWilliams
Amos
Sanjay

A bench of James, Baldwin, Francis, Davies, Lydiate, Philips, Priestland (ugh) and Morgan

Gwlad wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Lydiate always gets my vote Chris, his defence allows the other to concentrate on their own roles and a lot of our attacks start with his defence.

We need the right tight 5 v England to allow Tipuric AND Warbs in so that they can control breakdown. I think Lydiate is the perfect bench option and agree on his defensive supremacy but we need to go on the offensive v England i think Tips brings an x factor both in attack and also in defense.

I'd like to see this v Eng

Jenkins Owens Lee
AWJ Charters
Warbs, Faletau, TIps
? and Biggar
North
DOC and SWilliams
Amos
Sanjay

A bench of James, Baldwin, Francis, Davies, Lydiate, Philips, Priestland (ugh) and Morgan

Gwlad,

That side wouldn't bother me at all really like said I would most probably start Baldwin and but I would just go the other way start Lydiate then bring Tipuric on. Gareth Davies at No9

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Lydiate always gets my vote Chris, his defence allows the other to concentrate on their own roles and a lot of our attacks start with his defence.

We need the right tight 5 v England to allow Tipuric AND Warbs in so that they can control breakdown. I think Lydiate is the perfect bench option and agree on his defensive supremacy but we need to go on the offensive v England i think Tips brings an x factor both in attack and also in defense.

I'd like to see this v Eng

Jenkins Owens Lee
AWJ Charters
Warbs, Faletau, TIps
? and Biggar
North
DOC and SWilliams
Amos
Sanjay

A bench of James, Baldwin, Francis, Davies, Lydiate, Philips, Priestland (ugh) and Morgan

Gwlad,

That side wouldn't bother me at all really like said I would most probably start Baldwin and but I would just go the other way start Lydiate then bring Tipuric on.  Gareth Davies at No9

I think we will need to amass an incredible try score against Uraguay just in case the pool ends up even on points.

In that scenario will most likely have to do the same against Fiji too even if we beat England. Regarding England and Australia, they both have decent outside backs. Watson, Nowell, May, Brown and Joseph can cause problems with time and space. We have to defend well to contain them to ten man rugby. I think Lydiate Warbs and Faletau is the answer.

North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

munkian wrote:North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

munkian,

No debate off me. In my mind and looking at the original squad I would say Amos is more along the path of development than Walker plus he can cover XV and hence why he was included originally over Eli. If he doesn't pick Cuthbert (Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't) then it has to be Amos.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

munkian,

No debate off me.  In my mind and looking at the original squad I would say Amos is more along the path of development than Walker plus he can cover XV and hence why he was included originally over Eli.  If he doesn't pick Cuthbert (Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't) then it has to be Amos.

I guess the only potential debate with that back three would be who plays fullback (which is pretty much a no brainer).

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

munkian,

No debate off me.  In my mind and looking at the original squad I would say Amos is more along the path of development than Walker plus he can cover XV and hence why he was included originally over Eli.  If he doesn't pick Cuthbert (Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't) then it has to be Amos.

Cuthbert and Walker for Uruguay maybe ? I guess Sanjay needs a game before England.

munkian wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

munkian,

No debate off me.  In my mind and looking at the original squad I would say Amos is more along the path of development than Walker plus he can cover XV and hence why he was included originally over Eli.  If he doesn't pick Cuthbert (Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't) then it has to be Amos.

Cuthbert and Walker for Uruguay maybe ? I guess Sanjay needs a game before England.  

Yeah Williams needs a run out either start him then bring Morgan on or other way about. To be fair if they get the ball Walker and Cuthbert could do some damage against Uruguay, then again you would like to think most wingers at top level should be able to.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

munkian,

No debate off me.  In my mind and looking at the original squad I would say Amos is more along the path of development than Walker plus he can cover XV and hence why he was included originally over Eli.  If he doesn't pick Cuthbert (Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't) then it has to be Amos.

I guess the only potential debate with that back three would be who plays fullback (which is pretty much a no brainer).

With regards the Uruguay game is i t better to give Williams game time at XV where he will start against England or a run on the wing.

munkian wrote:North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

Protecting North...!

I'd play walker, his pace and great footwork will get tries vs Uraguay.

maestegmafia wrote:

munkian wrote:North, Amos, Sanjay.

Not sure where there's even a debate about this...

Protecting North...!

I'd play walker, his pace and great footwork will get tries vs Uraguay.

Ah, I meant for the 'tier 1' games

You're probably spot on then

Though I would likely play Sanjay at fullback and Hallam on the wing