England v Wales, 26 September

First topic message reminder :


ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

I thought Barritt had the worst game he's ever had against Fiji.
Gave away silly penalties that turned the momentum of the game against England after we got a good start. Dropped the ball and missed tackles. He is usually Mr Reliable - rarely makes mistakes and firms up the defence. If he is out of form will moving him to 13 help matters? I really don't think so.
Ford wasn't great for periods of the game but the forwards were under pressure and so he wasn't getting much quality ball. Farrell will be fine for me but his territory kicking isn't as good as Ford's imo and the first kick that goes out on the full will make me think Lancaster had it wrong.

I was reasonably confident about England's chances until these selections. I would not have a real problem with replacing Ford if Farrell had creative players outside him. I know JJ is injured but Slade is an obvious replacement.

We have an exciting back three but I cannot see how they are ever going to get the ball.

As a neutral it sounds like England may be choosing a team to counteract Wales and Gatlandball rather than playing their own game.

Terrible centre pairing.

Congrats on your win Wales world cup ends here for England.

If England really do go with Farrell-Burgess-Barritt,I can't see how they will win. Given the back three have been the best players over the last few games, why neutralise them? And that midfield suggests England will be boshing and kicking. How will that work given England's lineout and scrum issues?

I don't think I'll watch that now. It will be slaughter.

Horrible selections.

Id of picked Farrell over Ford and Burgess over Barrit anyway, guess people are upset over Barrit at 13 rather than the other two decisions that in my mind make sense! Guess the choice came down to Slade or Barrit.... I'd of loved to have seen Slade but two full World Cup debuts in the centre may have been more suicidal than picking Barrit there

the reality is that we were far to lateral against Fiji and it nearly cost us! Our game plan needs crash ball options if our outside backs are going to have any space to weave some magic! Watch the Fiji first half again! May and Watson got their hands on the ball A LOT but because it was just being shifted side to side they couldn't do anything with it!!

Scrape through this game or hope for a dominant performance from the pack I guess bit worried about the game now. If he really needs to start Farrell and Barritt surely Slade has to start or even Goode to bring some creativity. Looks like theyre hoping Englands backs will get good ball from Welsh kicking after they run into a brick wall of our 10 12 13 combo. Please Barritt have a good game and be able to get the ball wide.

Maybe I'm being too negative. Have to hope we can make yards by knocking Wales back in the tackle - Burgess and Barritt are strong in defence. Just can't see the backline making many yards ball in hand.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scrape through this game or hope for a dominant performance from the pack I guess bit worried about the game now. If he really needs to start Farrell and Barritt surely Slade has to start or even Goode to bring some creativity. Looks like theyre hoping Englands backs will get good ball from Welsh kicking after they run into a brick wall of our 10 12 13 combo. Please Barritt have a good game and be able to get the ball wide.

I will be over the moon if we can scrape a victory. I'm going to the game and a 1 point victory would feel like a lottery win.

Is the official announcement on Thursday?

Yup. Judging by previous leaks though is probably true.

If the news is correct and Burgess will play at 12 then I wonder if it will make Gatlands decision in the backrow easier?

Just like England picked Worsley few years back to do a job on Roberts then Lydiate is the perfect selection to do the same on Burgess.

And Joseph a major doubt for Australia.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Joseph a major doubt for Australia.

That could really hurt them as Australia are even more capable of exposing Burgess I think.

Is Englands hard training regime to blame for the injuries

So we've decided to go with Bomberball. I have only been mildly critical of Bomber in the past, but I have to say I think he has lost the plot with the backs and I question whether Catt has been marginalised. The reason the backs were poor last week was due to the poor quality ball served up by the forwards. It appears nothing will change in the forwards despite the scrum being turned over by Championship/D2 players. We desperately need to strengthen the scrum and Youngs and Parling need to be jettisoned at the expense of a secure lineout. If you lose a lineout the opposition just get the ball; losing a scum invariably ends up with a penalty and a major loss in ground. The scrum is the most important set piece and we need Launchbury and one of George or Webber to start. Launchbury will also help improve our game at the breakdown, which was woeful last week. I am dreading playing Oz and their 2 7s, as I doubt we'll get any form of platform.

Slade was excellent in his one game and I have no idea why Bomber has completely ignored him since, especially as he provides the type of play that he was desperate for 36 to deliver. There is no doubt our back 3 has become an effective unit, but with Farrell, Burgess and Barritt you have 3 players who are not distributors and I sincerely doubt Watson or May will receive quality ball. Furthermore, if Bomber is going to persist with Burgess, then Ford's ability to play flat and bring runners in is ideal to play to a crashball game. Farrell sits too deep and we will require Burgess to perform significant runs to get over the gain line.

Who else is injured have I missed something? Think Joseph got an impact injury rather than a tweak or twist which is what I think is normally associated with fatigue though there ll be a medical science bof on here who ll tell you whether that is the case.

The report said that JJ picked up the knock in the Fiji game, n ot sure about Morgan.

for me a big thing is, is slade on the bench? if yes then him coming on with Ford at 55/60 min after the huge collisions and tiring tackles then maybe we can suddenly look to fully release the back 3, plus see how Slade goes so that he may replace Joseph against Oz if needed.

So actually, if its farrell/burgess/barrett im ok with it if Slade is on the bench, which, i know is ridulously fickle.

HongKongCherry wrote:So we've decided to go with Bomberball. I have only been mildly critical of Bomber in the past, but I have to say I think he has lost the plot with the backs and I question whether Catt has been marginalised.  The reason the backs were poor last week was due to the poor quality ball served up by the forwards. It appears nothing will change in the forwards despite the scrum being turned over by Championship/D2 players.  We desperately need to strengthen the scrum and Youngs and Parling need to be jettisoned at the expense of a secure lineout.  If you lose a lineout the opposition just get the ball; losing a scum invariably ends up with a penalty and a major loss in ground.  The scrum is the most important set piece and we need Launchbury and one of George or Webber to start. Launchbury will also help improve our game at the breakdown, which was woeful last week.  I am dreading playing Oz and their 2 7s, as I doubt we'll get any form of platform.

Slade was excellent in his one game and I have no idea why Bomber has completely ignored him since, especially as he provides the type of play that he was desperate for 36 to deliver.  There is no doubt our back 3 has become an effective unit, but with Farrell, Burgess and Barritt you have 3 players who are not distributors and I sincerely doubt Watson or May will receive quality ball.  Furthermore, if Bomber is going to persist with Burgess, then Ford's ability to play flat and bring runners in is ideal to play to a crashball game.  Farrell sits too deep and we will require Burgess to perform significant runs to get over the gain line.

HKC, Farrell can play flat and has done so for England, it was a while ago, but against what Wales are likely to throw at us, I have no problem with Farrell at 10 and SB at 12. But if we go there, we need Care at 9 to keep the back row honest. Farrell used to be pretty good at the offload and if SB is in tune with him and either May or Watson join in it could be VERY effective. Agree that Barritt is not the man for 13, but didn't he play there when we beat the AB and scored a try? Slade would be my choice just to allow our best attacking players to get into the game, a risk, but what isn't. Playing Barritt there is a risk, especially after last Friday.

If the reports are correct I am looking forward to watching the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. One is going to get seriously hurt though if they both go at it hell for leather or worse both.

I think all Welsh fans can say we know how it feels to have an injury to one of your favourite players. Joseph is one of those lads that makes you edge closer to the tv when he gets the ball, an exciting creative player with plenty of tricks up his sleeve.

Sam Burgess has that eliminate too, in defence and attack but partnering him with Barritt and Ford does take the edge off.

That said, that could still be a canny midfield.

It will be interesting to see how Gatland approaches the back row selection in response.

Due to injury to Halfpenny the Wales camp have been hinting at playing a more open game...

The intensity is building towards what surely will be the biggest anticipated encounter so far...

Can't wait...!

rozakthegoon wrote:for me a big thing is, is slade on the bench? if yes then him coming on with Ford at 55/60 min after the huge collisions and tiring tackles then maybe we can suddenly look to fully release the back 3, plus see how Slade goes so that he may replace Joseph against Oz if needed.

So actually, if its farrell/burgess/barrett im ok with it if Slade is on the bench, which, i know is ridulously fickle.

Hopefully Tipuric can have same affect for us

Even with our injuries Wales certainly have the experience wise but I still think we suffer from mental frailties especially in tight situations which I think this game will be.

If we are not at least one score clear going into last 5 minutes then I am most others will be nervous wrecks.

If we are lets say only 3 points clear in last 5/10 minutes then we need the likes of (taking they still on pitch) Jenkins, AWJ, Faletau, Lydiate, Warburton, Roberts and North to all finally step us and deliver

I just don't see why you take out Ford when you add another lump in the midfield.

Surely you WANT Fords skills to make the most of Burgess.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't see why you take out Ford when you add another lump in the midfield.

Surely you WANT Fords skills to make the most of Burgess.

I just CANNOT understand this selection IF he goes Farrell, Burgess and BB. Our wingers are the best we have had in a long time, give them the ball!! I am ok with Burgess, England need to threaten the gainline ok I get it, but then to not pick players who will shift the ball away from the contact area to use the space which should open up on the outside is madness In my opinion.

Ahh, I've finally got one of SL's game-plans: he's going to bore Wales into submission.

Or is Stewie doing an 'MJ' and bottling it under the pressure of a RWC. This game could be a defining moment for SL's future. If we lose, he might struggle. We had a class pack, but everyone is pushing it back these days. We had a LO then TY came along. We had a new exciting and youthful back line but then we did a 'Wales' with it. We had better find some way of getting the ball to our remaining gem of a back 3.

Having said that, of all the games, this one might suit big Sam. And if Wales play their usual kicking game, it might give our back 3 some precious possession.

But if we play the same backs against Aus - we'll lose.

I'm genuinely horrified by this selection, and fully expect Scott Williams to make a mug of Burgess at some point in the game.

I can't believe Lancs has decided to be so scared of a Wales side which if anything are less of a set of bruisers than usual, and has thrown out the last 9 months of our game plan.

To be honest, he may even have decided to save Ford from the battering that the fly half is going to get, as soon as we have the ball Farrell is going to get smashed by the Welsh back row and centres, absolutely Frak all to worry about from our centres with ball in hand

Lancaster has either pulled off a masterstroke here or he's allowed Andy Farrell to bury him with this selection.

Will Gats alter the plan now or continue his Warrenball down the 10/12 channel?

The plot thickens

Well-past-it

Barritt has played 13 against Scotland when we hammered them at Twickenham, played at 13 once when we beat Ireland away, played at 13 last autumn when we beat the Aussies.

Just hopefully Barritt can sharpen his form because he was poor vs Fiji.


I agree with the sentiment that Farrell-Burgess-Barritt would certainly lack creativity.

Won't help if Youngs plays as poorly as he did vs Fiji too.

To be honest I would rather jettison Youngs, bring in Wigglesworth and partner him with Ford.

Wigglesworth is not a popular player but he's got the best box kick in England which would take pressure off Youngs and he's actually been playing quite well.

Can only hope to God that Fatland fancies a macho arm wrestle and sends them down the 12 channel all night long

Sadly I don't think he's that stupid

The thing I wonder is whether the sides will line out with 13 players or 15

430 comments already and the game is still a couple of days away. And to think that someone asked me why I posted this thread early. I love it. Well done everyone.

Wales blitz defence will have a field day as we don't have the speed of hands to get outside the defence.

Does Wales have the pace to exploit Englands solid yet perhaps a little immobile 10-13... Maybe a reason to start Amos?

Burgess can get caught out positionally but at 12 its minimised. I think however England's problem will be point scoring. They have a midfield and a backrow who will defend their hearts out and one who break a couple of Welshman in two... but how will they score points?

Really not happy this morning, it feels as though SL has learnt nothing about his players yet us fans (Eng/Welsh) can see his mistake straight away.

I'm very happy to come back here for a large slice of humble pie if I'm wrong, but I just cant see England winning now.

fa0019 penalties. Hit Wales on the counter - smash them in the tackle. Pin them back with kicks. Saracens-esque game plan.

You'll have effectively two extra flankers in the backs.

If you're going to play a boshing style then Farrell is a much better choice than Ford.

To be honest if Lancaster is going to do this he might well as not use half measures - pick Wigglesworth at 9 to pin back Wales with his box kick.

As a neutral I'm leaning towards Wales the closer this comes - I think England have all the pressure on them and have made a mistake in selection by bringing Burgess, who isn't ready to play 80min.

That said if Burgess nails Roberts early it might force Wales into plan B - either going wider or kicking and with England counter attack that could be a mistake.

Wales would have been targeting Ford I'm sure. This is very interesting and could go either way.

Head says Wales win but will lose to the Wallabies.

England to beat the Wallabies but miss out on top spot, just, but will play Japan in the QF, beat NZ in the SF and hopefully lose to Ireland in the final   .

Oh great, a Saracens game plan. Be interesting to see how that works minus allegedly cheating the salary cap so we automatically don't have an advantage in playing personnel

Bambam innocent till proven guilty, still shooting from the hip aren't you...

rodders wrote:As a neutral I'm leaning towards Wales the closer this comes - I think England have all the pressure on them and have made a mistake in selection by bringing Burgess, who isn't ready to play 80min.

That said if Burgess nails Roberts early it might force Wales into plan B - either going wider or kicking and with England counter attack that could be a mistake.

Wales would have been targeting Ford I'm sure. This is very interesting and could go either way.

Head says Wales win but will lose to the Wallabies.

England to beat the Wallabies but miss out on top spot, just, but will play Japan in the QF, beat NZ in the SF and hopefully lose to Ireland in the final   .

I have no worries about Burgess running all day. I can't see 80 minutes being a problem.

I can sadly see him being out of position a couple of times and Scot Williams exploiting that.

I do think that Farrell looked pretty good in his cameo on Friday. A lot is going to depend on Youngs at 9 though.

lostinwales wrote:

rodders wrote:As a neutral I'm leaning towards Wales the closer this comes - I think England have all the pressure on them and have made a mistake in selection by bringing Burgess, who isn't ready to play 80min.

That said if Burgess nails Roberts early it might force Wales into plan B - either going wider or kicking and with England counter attack that could be a mistake.

Wales would have been targeting Ford I'm sure. This is very interesting and could go either way.

Head says Wales win but will lose to the Wallabies.

England to beat the Wallabies but miss out on top spot, just, but will play Japan in the QF, beat NZ in the SF and hopefully lose to Ireland in the final   .

I have no worries about Burgess running all day. I can't see 80 minutes being a problem.

I can sadly see him being out of position a couple of times and Scot Williams exploiting that.

I do think that Farrell looked pretty good in his cameo on Friday. A lot is going to depend on Youngs at 9 though.

Oh yeah he's fit enough but mean he's more likely to be caught out over 80min - he took that dummy easy enough against Fiji for example.

Brilliant gameplan by Lancaster, he obviously didn't want the favourites tag. Pressure on Wales.

You just know Scott Williams is going to be Man of the Match.

Well in fairness to Burgess quite a few times when he came on against Fiji he got the offloads.
We could work very well off those if we have been practicing.

I think Lancaster sees him as another Sonny Bill Williams but I still think 6 is a much better option.

I just know Burgess is. Anything he does will be blown out of proportion and I can't see our backline worrying him one bit either.

Risca Rev wrote:I just know Burgess is. Anything he does will be blown out of proportion and I can't see our backline worrying him one bit either.

Can you translate that for me Risca

I myself wonder how England will score points but at the same time I can't see beyond them winning. They've stolen Gatland's clothes with a slight improved version of Gatlandball. Roberts vs Burgess... no contest and then what do Wales do?
The one way Wales can counter is their more mobile backrow but Gatland will surely play Lydiate which evens things up a bit more for England.

Wales have to play a quick fluid game but I'm not sure Gatland has the capacity to do it, to adapt his game. I expect an England victory, an old style grind out of a match, an arm-wrestle.
You have to adapt to your opposition. Simply playing the same way will not suffice, Lancaster is showing signs of adapting but Gatland historically doesn't... will he now?

England's bench will be more fluid, is this when they pull away, smash up the welsh for 60 and than exploit the holes.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well in fairness to Burgess quite a few times when he came on against Fiji he got the offloads.
We could work very well off those if we have been practicing.

I think Lancaster sees him as another Sonny Bill Williams but I still think 6 is a much better option.

SBW played a year in Toulon before even going near the ABs. I think the comparison is fair based on their RL profile but SBW had to bide his time before being thrown in the deep end is a big difference.

Guys who've been fast tracked by England in the past - Henry Paul, Vianakolo, Hape ,Farrell himself haven't gone too well when the heat was on.

TightHEAD wrote:You just know Scott Williams is going to be Man of the Match.

Either that or a crumpled heap in a corner after trying to get past Slamming Sam a couple of time