QF4: Australia v Scotland, 18 October

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AUSTRALIA v SCOTLAND

18 October 2015
16:00 BST (UTC+01)
Twickenham, London

Live on telly

Ref: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
ARs: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) and Pascal Gauzere (France)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

28 Played 28
19 Won 9
0 Drawn 0
9 Lost 19
671 Points 330

B. Recent Form

23 November 2013
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 21 to Australia

5 June 2012
Hunter Stadium, Newcastle
6 – 9 to Scotland

21 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 8 to Scotland

25 November 2006
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
15 – 44 to Australia

20 November 2004
Hampden Park, Glasgow
17 – 31 to Australia

C. TEAMS:
AUSTRALIA

15 Kurtley Beale; 14 Adam Ashley-Cooper, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Matt Giteau, 11 Drew Mitchell; 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Will Genia;

1 Scott Sio, 2Stephen Moore, 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Kane Douglas, 5 Rob Simmons, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Ben McCalman.

Substitutes: 16 Tatafu Polota-Nau, 17 James Slipper, 18 Greg Holmes, 19 Dean Mumm, 20 Sean McMahon, 21 Nick Phipps, 22 Matt Toomua, 23 Quade Cooper.

SCOTLAND

15 Stuart Hogg; 14 Sean Maitland, 13 Mark Bennett, 12 Peter Horne 11 Tommy Seymour; 10 Finn Russell,  9 Greig Laidlaw;

1 Alasdair Dickinson, 2 Ross Ford, 3 Willem Nel, 4 Jonny Gray, 5 Richie Gray, 6 Blair Cowan, 7 John Hardie, 8 David Denton. 


Substitutes: 
16 Fraser Brown, 17 Gordon Reid, 18 Jon Welsh, 19 Tim Swinson, 20 Josh Strauss, 21 Henry Pyrgos, 22 Richie Vernon, 23 Sean Lamont.

madmaccas wrote:https://vine.co/v/eEJ1aJl1Hpa

Trust me, once you've seen behind the scenes it all makes sense https://vine.co/v/eE6zmmtg3T6

madmaccas wrote:https://vine.co/v/eEJ1aJl1Hpa

Pretty much sums up everything we've been saying!

Gents.....

2 tickets for sale for the match. Cat D tickets £95 each.

Seller can meet you in London and he is not dodgy.

I don't know any dodgy people.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Gents.....

2 tickets for sale for the match. Cat D tickets £95 each.

Seller can meet you in London and he is not dodgy.

I don't know any dodgy people.

you not looked in a mirror recently lol

Not for me - the whole WC had just lost some shine for me

Riskysports wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Gents.....

2 tickets for sale for the match. Cat D tickets £95 each.

Seller can meet you in London and he is not dodgy.

I don't know any dodgy people.

you not looked in a mirror recently lol

Not for me - the whole WC had just lost some shine for me

Ah now, ask RDW for a dodginess reference which will clear me.

You lot on the other hand.......

GLove39 wrote:

madmaccas wrote:https://vine.co/v/eEJ1aJl1Hpa

Trust me, once you've seen behind the scenes it all makes sense https://vine.co/v/eE6zmmtg3T6

Fantastic, good work!

You're infinitely better at making vines than I am GLove.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Gents.....

2 tickets for sale for the match. Cat D tickets £95 each.

Seller can meet you in London and he is not dodgy.

I don't know any dodgy people.

you not looked in a mirror recently lol

Not for me - the whole WC had just lost some shine for me

Ah now, ask RDW for a dodginess reference which will clear me.

You lot on the other hand.......

Don't trust this man.

If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

Given their ban would rule them out of the world cup final I'm gonna guess at yes?

Do we need to know?

Harley is the only '2nd row' left to call up realistically, but he would be out of position in the 2nd row too (no matter what VC classes him as)

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

Given their ban would rule them out of the world cup final I'm gonna guess at yes?

Do we need to know?

Harley is the only '2nd row' left to call up realistically, but he would be out of position in the 2nd row too (no matter what VC classes him as)

I'm Assuming Toolis is still injured, and Fraz McKenzie is just a bit meh.... Think big Jim could be talked out of retirement?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

Given their ban would rule them out of the world cup final I'm gonna guess at yes?

Do we need to know?

Harley is the only '2nd row' left to call up realistically, but he would be out of position in the 2nd row too (no matter what VC classes him as)

I'm Assuming Toolis is still injured, and Fraz McKenzie is just a bit meh.... Think big Jim could be talked out of retirement?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

Given their ban would rule them out of the world cup final I'm gonna guess at yes?

Do we need to know?

Harley is the only '2nd row' left to call up realistically, but he would be out of position in the 2nd row too (no matter what VC classes him as)

I'm Assuming Toolis is still injured, and Fraz McKenzie is just a bit meh.... Think big Jim could be talked out of retirement?

Two words Scott Cummings. He is already world class.

If we could call-up additional players then we'd need another hooker as well, and I genuinely can't think who that would be, given that Bryce is already now covering for Brown, and McInally is injured.

Cochrane? MacArthur?

Scraping the barrel!

funnyExiledScot wrote:If we could call-up additional players then we'd need another hooker as well, and I genuinely can't think who that would be, given that Bryce is already now covering for Brown, and McInally is injured.

Cochrane? MacArthur?

Scraping the barrel!

Cochrane has been great for Edinburgh

I don't think we need a reserve hooker - a lot of teams only have 2 in their squads anyway!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Gents.....

2 tickets for sale for the match. Cat D tickets £95 each.

Seller can meet you in London and he is not dodgy.

I don't know any dodgy people.

you not looked in a mirror recently lol

Not for me - the whole WC had just lost some shine for me

Ah now, ask RDW for a dodginess reference which will clear me.

You lot on the other hand.......

Don't trust this man.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

Given their ban would rule them out of the world cup final I'm gonna guess at yes?

Do we need to know?

Harley is the only '2nd row' left to call up realistically, but he would be out of position in the 2nd row too (no matter what VC classes him as)

I'm Assuming Toolis is still injured, and Fraz McKenzie is just a bit meh.... Think big Jim could be talked out of retirement?

I would love it if Big Jim was called up.

Jim will show those Aussies the sort of antics and tomfoolery that truly deserves cards and suspensions.

George Carlin wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

Given their ban would rule them out of the world cup final I'm gonna guess at yes?

Do we need to know?

Harley is the only '2nd row' left to call up realistically, but he would be out of position in the 2nd row too (no matter what VC classes him as)

I'm Assuming Toolis is still injured, and Fraz McKenzie is just a bit meh.... Think big Jim could be talked out of retirement?

I would love it if Big Jim was called up.

Jim will show those Aussies the sort of antics and tomfoolery that truly deserves cards and suspensions.

I imagine it a bit like Crocodile Dundee,

"That's not a 5 week banning offence, THAT's a 5 week banning offence".

Can imagine Big Jim tackling a player by lifting his legs up and just as he’s about to drop him on his head, turn him up right, put him down safely then punch him in the stomach.

Would only be a 1 week ban after all!

Wonder what Gray and Ford would've copped if say Ford had got on all fours just behind the Samoan boy and then Ritchie had pushed him over backwards.

Then they both ran away.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Can imagine Big Jim tackling a player by lifting his legs up and just as he’s about to drop him on his head, turn him up right, put him down safely then punch him in the stomach.

Would only be a 1 week ban after all!

Agree. Just break a few ribs. Nothing dangerous.

Surely we can't call up anyone to replace banned players???

Presuming the bans stand, does anyone expect the team to look much different to last week's?

Brown and Swinson will no doubt come in. Cowan and Bryce to the bench?

Will Stroks come in or bench instead of Cowan?

Or do we try to match Pooper by playing Hardie and Cowan?

Does Wilson offer more than Strauss at the breakdown and at the lineout?

Any other changes?

Dickinson
Brown
Nel
R Gray
Swinson
Strauss
Hardie
Denton
Laidlaw
Russell
Seymour
Scott
Bennett
Maitland
Hogg

Reid
Bryce
Welsh
Wilson
Cowan
SHC
Horne
Lamont

If we have serious ambitions of reaching the semi final, then Wilson should be nowhere near the squad on Sunday.

I'd be tempted to start Hardie, Cowan and Denton for us to be able to compete at the breakdown and slow the Aussie ball.

I really want to see Bennett come into his own in the match with the back three chasing everything.

Citing commissioners report is up

http://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/test/worldrugby/document/2015/10/14/b7156fa4-4207-4f67-b287-11201fb620d9/151014_JO_Decision_Ford_&_Gray_(Scotland)_FINAL.pdf

Mrs Ahern said that RWCL “supports” the Citing Complaints and submitted that I “ought” to find that both Players committed an act of Foul Play contrary to law 10.4(j) and if not, then contrary to Law 10.4(e).

T*ssers.

Process driven drivel. Its still one man's reading of the available footage and his subsequent reading on the law vs a referee who was 3 metres away who stated, whether they like it or not, that he'd dealt with the matter on the pitch. I wonder whether it would have been spotted had S7 been wearing black boots

Seems like a green light for the Scottish players to go out and try to deliberately injure (like Pocock or O'Brien) Oz players - nothing will happen or at most a weeks ban.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:If we have serious ambitions of reaching the semi final, then Wilson should be nowhere near the squad on Sunday.

I'd be tempted to start Hardie, Cowan and Denton for us to be able to compete at the breakdown and slow the Aussie ball.

I really want to see Bennett come into his own in the match with the back three chasing everything.

Agree. For me the squad now picks itself:

1.Dickinson 2.Brown 3.Nel 4.Swinson 5.R Gray 6.Cowan 7.Hardie 8.Strauss 9.Laidlaw 10.Russell 11.Seymour 12.Scott 13.Bennett 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Reid 17.Bryce 18.Welsh 19.Denton 20.Strokosch 21.Hidalgo-Clyne 22.Horne 23.Lamont

I struggled to choose between Strauss or Denton starting at 8, but given Denton's lack of punch against Samoa and the fact that he's now covering lock, I've opted for him to be the impact sub rather than Strauss.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:If Ford and Gray's bans are not rescinded do we have the opportunity to call someone else up?

Given their ban would rule them out of the world cup final I'm gonna guess at yes?

Do we need to know?

Harley is the only '2nd row' left to call up realistically, but he would be out of position in the 2nd row too (no matter what VC classes him as)

Scott Cummings is well on his way o being World Class so why not?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:If we have serious ambitions of reaching the semi final, then Wilson should be nowhere near the squad on Sunday.

I'd be tempted to start Hardie, Cowan and Denton for us to be able to compete at the breakdown and slow the Aussie ball.

I really want to see Bennett come into his own in the match with the back three chasing everything.

Agree. For me the squad now picks itself:

1.Dickinson 2.Brown 3.Nel 4.Swinson 5.R Gray 6.Cowan 7.Hardie 8.Strauss 9.Laidlaw 10.Russell 11.Seymour 12.Scott 13.Bennett 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Reid 17.Bryce 18.Welsh 19.Denton 20.Strokosch 21.Hidalgo-Clyne 22.Horne 23.Lamont

I struggled to choose between Strauss or Denton starting at 8, but given Denton's lack of punch against Samoa and the fact that he's now covering lock, I've opted for him to be the impact sub rather than Strauss.

I'm not a fan, but don't we lose an option at the lineout if Wilson drops out? How effective is Swinson at lineout time?

If Swinson is a horses for courses replacement for Jonny, maybe we can do without Wilson in the starting 15, but I'd imagine we need him on the bench, don't we?

We don't need Wilson for anything.

I'd rather see someone try to lift WP Nel than accommodate Wilson purely as a lineout man.

The match referee Jaco Peyper submitted an email in which he said:
“I can confirm I indeed saw the incident live referred to in the citing complaint.
Samoa number 7 found himself in position competing for the ball with his head
below his hips already. The Scotland arriving players, Scotland 5 and 2 in an
attempt to remove the threat to possession as per normal and in the dynamics
lifted Samoa 7’s legs and he tumble over, however the player supported on his
hands through out.
After our internal performance review process I am satisfied that that I dealt with
the incident appropriately.”

Gosh - sounds like Peyper actually got something right!

It is a fing disgrace - a fing stitch up and complete b o locks

Riskysports wrote:The match referee Jaco Peyper submitted an email in which he said:
“I can confirm I indeed saw the incident live referred to in the citing complaint.
Samoa number 7 found himself in position competing for the ball with his head
below his hips already. The Scotland arriving players, Scotland 5 and 2 in an
attempt to remove the threat to possession as per normal and in the dynamics
lifted Samoa 7’s legs and he tumble over, however the player supported on his
hands through out.
After our internal performance review process I am satisfied that that I dealt with
the incident appropriately.”

Is that a genuine email or something you made up? If the first one then it is even more staggering they've been banned.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Riskysports wrote:The match referee Jaco Peyper submitted an email in which he said:
“I can confirm I indeed saw the incident live referred to in the citing complaint.
Samoa number 7 found himself in position competing for the ball with his head
below his hips already. The Scotland arriving players, Scotland 5 and 2 in an
attempt to remove the threat to possession as per normal and in the dynamics
lifted Samoa 7’s legs and he tumble over, however the player supported on his
hands through out.
After our internal performance review process I am satisfied that that I dealt with
the incident appropriately.”

Is that a genuine email or something you made up? If the first one then it is even more staggering they've been banned.

Is in the report quoted above

http://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/test/worldrugby/document/2015/10/14/b7156fa4-4207-4f67-b287-11201fb620d9/151014_JO_Decision_Ford_&_Gray_(Scotland)_FINAL.pdf

So the refereeing told the citing panel that, having looked at it himself he was happy he didn't penalise the player yet the QC ignored him?

Excellent.

And the crazy thing about all this is that both actions are being treated as the same incident, which they clearly were not. Hence why Ford got the same ban as Gray. Both players did different things and it was the unfortunate combination of their actions that caused the problem.

Both should have been treated separately.

And how is this for a cracker:

In a statement, World Rugby said it was "satisfied that the fully independent disciplinary process is being fairly and consistently applied across the board at this Rugby World Cup".

They really do believe we are all thick as sh*t.

In relation to both Players I was invited to apply TDP Clause 10.10.7 and conclude that
by application of Appendix 3 to the TDP, any sanction imposed on either Player would
be wholly disproportionate to the type and level of their offending. By application
thereof, I was invited to impose no sanction on either Player. Once more he relied
upon the De Bruin decision. In this context, it was also submitted that I should have
regard to the fact that any suspension would involve missing the quarter final match
against Australia (and any other Tournament matches).
RWC 2015 – 151014 Decision of the Judicial Officer
Citings of Ross Ford and Jonny Gray (Scotland) Page 12 of 16
5.6 Mrs Ahern made no submissions on entry point. Mrs Ahern submitted that the 2009
Memorandum “ought to apply” though said it was a matter for my discretion as to
whether it did. She submitted that while it was in my discretion whether to apply TDP
Clause 10.10.7, she submitted that RWCL “don't believe this is a case where 10.10.7
would apply”. She submitted that it would be “inconsistent with the application of the
[2009] memorandum to then apply 10.10.7” but she acknowledged that Clause 10.10.7
did not specifically prohibit such an approach.

What does that mean translated to English?

This was not a ‘dangerous tip tackle’ in the classic sense. However, it was a clear out
by two players, which involved a player being lifted, and driven into the ground. He
landed on the side of his head. All of the component parts of Law 10.4(j) were
satisfied. The Memorandum remains in force. The only sensible inference is that
offending of this (10.4(j)) kind continues and such offending remains a matter of
concern for World Rugby. I did not approach the question automatically but rather
considered whether in this case an additional period for this offending was required.
Looking at this act of Foul Play, I have concluded that there is a continuing pattern of
offending of this kind and the need for a deterrent to combat it remains. I therefore
added a period of one week to the entry point of 4 weeks


So due to all the others that have happened (But no citings for I can see) they get punished

This is complete stitch up -

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:If we have serious ambitions of reaching the semi final, then Wilson should be nowhere near the squad on Sunday.

I'd be tempted to start Hardie, Cowan and Denton for us to be able to compete at the breakdown and slow the Aussie ball.

I really want to see Bennett come into his own in the match with the back three chasing everything.

Agree. For me the squad now picks itself:

1.Dickinson 2.Brown 3.Nel 4.Swinson 5.R Gray 6.Cowan 7.Hardie 8.Strauss 9.Laidlaw 10.Russell 11.Seymour 12.Scott 13.Bennett 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Reid 17.Bryce 18.Welsh 19.Denton 20.Strokosch 21.Hidalgo-Clyne 22.Horne 23.Lamont

I struggled to choose between Strauss or Denton starting at 8, but given Denton's lack of punch against Samoa and the fact that he's now covering lock, I've opted for him to be the impact sub rather than Strauss.

Yes....happy with either. A stint on the bench might fire up Denton when he comes on later.

I'd also get Jim Telfer to deliver the pre-match team talk.

This QC Ias put World Rugby between a rock and a hard place.

If they appeal and get their sanctions reduced it means that the players are no longer being made an example of and their desire to stamp out these kind of things will be affected.

If they don't get an appeal then two honest, non-dirty rugby players who made a clumsy accident will have lost the chance to play the biggest game of their lives, all because someone needs to make an example of them to make up for other people's unpunished indiscretions.

M...u....s.....t g.....e.....t r......i.....d o.....f a.....n.....g....e....r

And focus on the game

BTW - are we able to bring in new players

It get feckin worse and worse.   Anyone seen the Lets Walk Away forum - getting lots of support.    Can a rugby body complain about citing commissions and tribunals or whatever that corrupt QC wenker convened ?

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:And how is this for a cracker:

In a statement, World Rugby said it was "satisfied that the fully independent disciplinary process is being fairly and consistently applied across the board at this Rugby World Cup".

They really do believe we are all thick as sh*t.

Absolutely. If they genuinely believed that this was the case, it would not have been worthy of comment all.

Does anyone know whom the appeal would be made to? A silk with more sense than this one?

George - it clearly is - don't let your anger cloud your judgement. It is clearly consistent if you understand the law and the guidence. If you think the laws and guidance wrong - thats a different matter but its clearly being applied to the letter of the law and the guidance supplied

http://m.heraldscotland.com/sport/rugby/13844855.Visible_justice_needs_to_be_key_in_World_Cup_hearings/

TJ - happy to clarify that this article sets out my feelings on the matter

TJ wrote:George - it clearly is - don't let your anger cloud your judgement.  It is clearly consistent if you understand the law and the guidence.  If you think the laws and guidance wrong - thats a different matter but its clearly being applied to the letter of the law and the guidance supplied

Not really the case

It is not consistent to increase the ban for these two because of others

It is not consistent to ignore all the other aspects - ignore the ref - ignore the guidence to not provide no ban and not consistent with the rest of the world cup


It is a mockery