Aviva Premiership - Round 6

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Table

Team	Played	--Won--	-Drawn-	---BP---	Points
Saracens	5	5	0	2	22
Exeter	5	4	0	3	19
Leicester	5	4	0	0	16
Harlequins	5	3	0	3	15
Wasps	5	3	0	2	14
Northampton	5	2	0	4	12
Sale Sharks	5	2	1	2	12
Bath	5	2	0	2	10
Worcester	5	2	0	2	10
Gloucester	5	2	0	1	9
Newcastle	5	0	1	0	2
London Irish	5	0	0	0	0

Fixtures:


Fri 4th Dec

19:45 Gloucester Rugby  v   Sale Sharks BT Sport
Both sides will not have been happy with their performances last week in games that failed to rise above the awful conditions. Gloucester's experiment of Twelvetrees at 10 and hook at 12 failed rather conspicuously as neither managed to add any control. Gloucester will be hoping for dry conditions in which their quick backs are more likely to thrive. Not for the first time this season, Danny Cipriani was unsuccessful with a "win-the-game" kick. After his break during the Challenge Cup matches he looked rusty, and with the court appearance hanging over him he will need to cast away all extraneous emotions and perform if Sale are to sneak anything from this game. Gloucester should win and overtake their visitors in the table, but it is hard to see either team threatening the top half of the table.


Sat 5th Dec

15:00 Harlequins  v   London Irish
Having secured a TBP at Sandy Park, Quins will be bemoaning their ill-discipline (plus attempts to run the clock down at the end of the first half) that allowed Exeter to sneak the win. Still, if you had offered them 2 points before they started their journey west they would probably have bitten your hand off. London Irish are the only team still pointless in the table, but can keep tyheir hopes up by looking at just how hard their opening fixtures have been. all five of their opponents so far finished in the top half of the table last season, and all bar Bath are their again. The trip to the Stoop continues the trend of playing form teams. Certainly Irish have no being playing as poorly as the table would suggest and, despite Quins being clear favourites, they are capable of getting something from this game.

15:00 Worcester Warriors  v   Leicester Tigers
Along with visitors Bath, Leicester did well to rise above the conditions last week and produce a game full of ambition and running - but perhaps not finishing. With Bell and Youngs both kicking far too long with the wind behind, Bath dominated territory and possession in the first half. However tigers showed real grit to hold them at bay, repeated this when down to 14 men in the second half and pulled away at the end. While the influence of Mauger can be seen in how Tigers are trying to play, the physicality with which tigers hit every tackle, ruck and maul was quintessential Cockers. They will need all that grit and fire for the visit to Sixways to face a Worcester side that are more than the sum of their parts. Wuss will be disappointed and even shocked by the score line last week. They did not play as poorly as a casual look at the score would suggest. DOC needs to avoid winding the ref up though. There were a number of 50/50 calls that went the Sarries way after some rather pointless in the refs face behaviour.


15:15 Bath Rugby  v   Northampton Saints BT Sport
The top two in last years regular season have struggled for form and consistency in the league so far, both with just two wins from five games. It is hard to decide who will be more confident going into this match. Bath played some excellent rugby in absolutely dire conditions at the weekend, but allowed Leicester's physicality to seize the day. Saints in conditions almost as bad featured in perhaps the worst match of the season - but dominated their opponent up front. Bath struggled at the lineout last week, but went toe-to-toe  at scrum time with the Leicester 8, almost gaining parity. they will need to raise their game further though for the visit of Saints beast of a scrum. I fell thi smatch could be decided by the conditions. If dry and still Bath should be able to avoid arm wrestle and seize the win. Wet and heavy and Saints abrasiveness and grunbt should dominate. Both sides will not wish to lose and slide down the table, but both sides will have their eyes on potentially tricky European matches.

17:30 Wasps  v   Exeter Chiefs BT Sport
Two teams that love to run the ball. Also two teams that have shown admirable defence this season at times, Wasps most notably in Europe, Chiefs for Leicester's visit. I am fascinated to see how this match will pan out. On paper Wasps look stronger, but Exeter have continued to make a mockery of such assertions. Battle of the back rows could be seismic.


Sun 6th Dec

15:00 Newcastle Falcons  v   Saracens BT Sport
It will be a shock if Saracens fail to win this game. Falcons should not be written off though. With one eye on Europe the defending champions will continue to rotate their players. Falcons came close to beating Sarries last season in Barnet with an all action attacking game - same again could make things interesting - but they have to be precise. Lose possession when in attack and they will see just how precisely Sarries counter attack.

No Mcguigans throwing is still dodgy.

And he's Irish - represented them all the way through. I thought he'd plump to try for them.

Londontiger as a spectacle I agree the Worcester game was better, much more fun to watch. Easier on the eye.

As for Itoje being too slow, we won't know till he's given opportunities.

lostinwales I have said it many a time - he's playing well, he has to be picked, even if he doesn't making the starting line up vs Scotland he has to feature in the England squad in my opinion. Needs international experience.

Comes back to that question of is he good enough to demand a start probably not in either position. Would be a good bench option but then he's up against people like Slater who would also offer a lock/6 option. I think he'll get at least a couple of bench starts covering the back row in the 6Ns.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger as a spectacle I agree the Worcester game was better, much more fun to watch.  Easier on the eye.

As for Itoje being too slow, we won't know till he's given opportunities.

lostinwales I have said it many a time - he's playing well, he has to be picked, even if he doesn't making the starting line up vs Scotland he has to feature in the England squad in my opinion. Needs international experience.

I know how easy it is to slip into the same circular arguments but you seem to be missing the obvious. My point is that he may be playing well but is he playing well enough compared with the other options to get picked. Is he playing better at 6 than Ewers. Is he playing better at lock than Slater or Kitchener?

These views are subjective (and ultimately its what EJ thinks that counts) but he doesn't deserve to be picked on potential alone. He has to prove he's better than the alternatives, or wait for those alternatives to show they can't hack internationals before he gets his chance.

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger as a spectacle I agree the Worcester game was better, much more fun to watch.  Easier on the eye.

As for Itoje being too slow, we won't know till he's given opportunities.

lostinwales I have said it many a time - he's playing well, he has to be picked, even if he doesn't making the starting line up vs Scotland he has to feature in the England squad in my opinion. Needs international experience.

I know how easy it is to slip into the same circular arguments but you seem to be missing the obvious. My point is that he may be playing well but is he playing well enough compared with the other options to get picked. Is he playing better at 6 than Ewers. Is he playing better at lock than Slater or Kitchener?

These views are subjective (and ultimately its what EJ thinks that counts) but he doesn't deserve to be picked on potential alone. He has to prove he's better than the alternatives, or wait for those alternatives to show they can't hack internationals before he gets his chance.

I suspect under Eddie, very few will be picked on potential.

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger as a spectacle I agree the Worcester game was better, much more fun to watch.  Easier on the eye.

As for Itoje being too slow, we won't know till he's given opportunities.

lostinwales I have said it many a time - he's playing well, he has to be picked, even if he doesn't making the starting line up vs Scotland he has to feature in the England squad in my opinion. Needs international experience.

I know how easy it is to slip into the same circular arguments but you seem to be missing the obvious. My point is that he may be playing well but is he playing well enough compared with the other options to get picked. Is he playing better at 6 than Ewers. Is he playing better at lock than Slater or Kitchener?

These views are subjective (and ultimately its what EJ thinks that counts) but he doesn't deserve to be picked on potential alone. He has to prove he's better than the alternatives, or wait for those alternatives to show they can't hack internationals before he gets his chance.

I think this is exactly the point. Playing well is fine, but he seems to be playing well at lock, which would suggest to me that any opportunity with England would be at lock. Is he playing/has he played better at lock than Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Kruis, Slater, Kitchener et al? Has he played enough at 6 this season to be considered a 6 for international duty?

I agree with you Beshocked when you say that any player can be accommodated: a smallish lock can play with a taller one and a taller 6 so that the lineout doesn't suffer. A slower 6 can be paired with two quicker back row colleagues and a more mobile lock so that the balance between size/power and mobility around the park doesn't suffer. I'm just not convinced that the case has been made to build a pack around Itoje yet, and shift the balance to accommodate him - certainly not at lock. I doubt, for example, that an Itoje/Launchbury second row pairing would have the critical mass to take on Etzebeth/De Jager or Retallick/Whitelock, and England need to be thinking of those players as the benchmark.

I really do think he should pin his colours to the mast at blindside. He could become a special player.

I still think he looks more a lock myself but I suspect he'll be bench cover for 6 this time around.

I would consider him for Saxons but no more at the moment - certainly not at lock. And if he is considered then Sean Robinson the Falcons lock should be as he was excellent in the engine room for us yesterday. And he's not likely to be an international lock!

When are the new squads announced? I may reconsider that opinion but not likely.

Usually first week in January

Geordiefalcon you're coming out with some odd comments today -I wonder if someone has hacked your account! You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think you'll find too many people sharing your opinion about Sean Robinson vs Maro Itoje.

lostinwales Itoje is playing well enough to be picked by Eddie Jones -don't need to agree with me - there are numerous professionals/pundits who rate him highly enough. Some even see him as a captain option.

Fortunately I think Itoje is the kind of player that Eddie Jones will like.

Im merely stating that all this push for Itoje is fine is he was playing world beating rugby. He's not....YET!

Sean Robinson is never in the world going to play for England...yet he was actually very very good yesterday certainly better than Itoje, So should we not call for him to play for England?

Geordiefalcon with all due respect, Mccall said he was impressed with Itoje against Newcastle, Ben Kay gave Itoje the man of the match gong against Worcester, he's been playing in most of the big games this season, he's won an AP title. I think it's fair to say he's backing up the hype.

What has Robinson done of note? Itoje - AP winner, England U20s captain when they won the JRWC, LV Cup winning captain, part of an unbeaten Sarries side this season.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon you're coming out with some odd comments today -I wonder if someone has hacked your account!  You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think you'll find too many people sharing your opinion about Sean Robinson vs Maro Itoje.

lostinwales Itoje is playing well enough to be picked by Eddie Jones -don't need to agree with me - there are numerous professionals/pundits who rate him highly enough. Some even see him as a captain option.

Fortunately I think Itoje is the kind of player that Eddie Jones will like.

Apologies Beshocked but you are just repeating yourself.

I'll ask a simple question then. Is Itoje playing better than, say, Launchbury or Kitchener at lock or Ewers at BS?

It doesn't matter what you've won, Jones won't care.

You've got to take a player on face value, everybody has a clean slate. I personally don't think Itoje has looked that good this season, he was comprehensively outplayed by Kruis yesterday. I don't think he offers enough in the lineout for an Int lock yet.

Hard to say Kitchener & Slater are playing well too, they've just returned from injury.

lostinwales Yes, he is good enough to be picked in the England squad

Sgt Pooly entitled to your opinion - both Kruis and Itoje have had good seasons but I would pick Itoje every time.

Big couple of matches coming up for Kitchener and Slater if they play against Munster. They will be brought back slowly but the Christmas period should give us a better idea of how they are performing. If he stays fit then I think Kitchener could be brilliant for England and deserves a chance at least.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon with all due respect, Mccall said he was impressed with Itoje against Newcastle, Ben Kay gave Itoje the man of the match gong against Worcester, he's been playing in most of the big games this season, he's won an AP title. I think it's fair to say he's backing up the hype.

What has Robinson done of note? Itoje - AP winner, England U20s captain when they won the JRWC, LV Cup winning captain, part of an unbeaten Sarries side this season.

Eh??? Im not talking about what they've won...... ??

Kitchener has some time to find form, but judging on this weekends game he is hitting the ground running.

Itoje will find it difficult to pass the challenge of Kitchener. Then if Launchbury is playing top form...he wont pass him either.

I agree with everyone, I really think he should look to go for that 6 spot. He is some unit already and he could be something else there.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon with all due respect, Mccall said he was impressed with Itoje against Newcastle, Ben Kay gave Itoje the man of the match gong against Worcester, he's been playing in most of the big games this season, he's won an AP title. I think it's fair to say he's backing up the hype.

What has Robinson done of note? Itoje - AP winner, England U20s captain when they won the JRWC, LV Cup winning captain, part of an unbeaten Sarries side this season.

Can we please drop the AP title nonsense though.

It's about performances, not just silverware. What has Robinson done of note? You're not doing a very good job of making a case of Robinson for England.

Ah, this is what I'd been missing over the last few weeks

He's not saying robinson for England he's saying if Itoje can't outperform him in this game should either be considered?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon with all due respect, Mccall said he was impressed with Itoje against Newcastle, Ben Kay gave Itoje the man of the match gong against Worcester, he's been playing in most of the big games this season, he's won an AP title. I think it's fair to say he's backing up the hype.

What has Robinson done of note? Itoje - AP winner, England U20s captain when they won the JRWC, LV Cup winning captain, part of an unbeaten Sarries side this season.

Can we please drop the AP title nonsense though.

Why? He did win an AP title. It's not nonsense.

It's nonsense when someone suggested that Itoje would get no game time this season..... remember who that was?

Why haven't you been calling for Webber to be England hooker? You seemed awfully keen to see him in the RWC.....




Geordiefalcon

Kitchener plays one game and he's seen as a shoo in for England....

Itoje plays well in game after game and he's not deemed good enough.

Where's the consistency? Answer - there is none.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's not saying robinson for England he's saying if Itoje can't outperform him in this game should either be considered?

Thank you 7.5

Beshocked your a very difficult man to have a debate with at times....

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon with all due respect, Mccall said he was impressed with Itoje against Newcastle, Ben Kay gave Itoje the man of the match gong against Worcester, he's been playing in most of the big games this season, he's won an AP title. I think it's fair to say he's backing up the hype.

What has Robinson done of note? Itoje - AP winner, England U20s captain when they won the JRWC, LV Cup winning captain, part of an unbeaten Sarries side this season.

Can we please drop the AP title nonsense though.

Why? He did win an AP title. It's not nonsense.

It's nonsense when someone suggested that Itoje would get no game time this season..... remember who that was?

Why haven't you been calling for Webber to be England hooker? You seemed awfully keen to see him in the RWC.....




Geordiefalcon

Kitchener plays one game and he's seen as a shoo in for England....

Itoje plays well in game after game and he's not deemed good enough.

Where's the consistency? Answer - there is none.

Because if itoje had played for Newcastle he wouldn't have won it but that would make him no less a player or prospect. I said that to make a point of saracens cheating and limiting player time. And another reason is that you cheated so didn't really win it but bought it.

And again beshocked your inability to follow reasoning around Webber raises its head. Do you really think these things or do you just get bored?

Kitchener plays one game and he's seen as a shoo in for England....

Kitchener has been around the scene for a number of years and is getting better and better.

Theres huge arguments that he should have been in the England side/squad for a season or two now.

Unless I am missing something Gf is not pushing Robinson for England, in fact the opposite. He said he will never play for England. He just stated that he felt It one was not better than Robinson yesterday, and that Kruis shone.

Kruis has had a good season so far, probably good enough to stay in the EPS and has performed second row duties to a level comfortable in excess of Itoje so far.

To be fair to GeordieFalcon, I assume he is basing his opinion of Kitchener on more than just 1 game. For the last couple of seasons Kitchener has deserved a call up but for some reason Lancaster decided against it.

Anyway...welcome back Beshocked, its been dull without you

Ha ha....

killer938 wrote:To be fair to GeordieFalcon, I assume he is basing his opinion of Kitchener on more than just 1 game.

But not his opinion on Itoje. Every comment of his has based on how he played against Falcons.

We will see what Jones thinks. I don't think there's anyone actually involved in rugby who thinks he's an average club player.

no 7 & 1/2 reasoning? You were wrong, get over it. Webber was a mistake - admit it, eat some humble pie and move on.

You were wrong about Itoje's lack of gametime - again admit you were wrong.

Will you ever stop spouting rubbish? You have no proof about "cheating".

I guess you believe you say it enough you can believe the dribble you spout.

Londontiger whatever, I'll just say: your opinion vs my opinion. We'll see how things transpire.

Geordiefalcon feel like you've changed and not for the better.

Back with a bang, is how I would describe it

[quote="Scottrf"]

killer938 wrote:To be fair to GeordieFalcon, I assume he is basing his opinion of Kitchener on more than just 1 game.

But not his opinion on Itoje. Every comment of his has based on how he played against Falcons.

We will see what Jones thinks. I don't think there's anyone actually involved in rugby who thinks he's an average club player.[/quote]

quote]


At no point have I said he's an average club player????

Ive said he is a player of huge potential who on my only live viewing of him (in the flesh at a game) I don't think is quite ready for Full EPS selection. Ive said Saxons yes and monitor him.

I think that's an extremely honest view

Get over the fact I was making a point against you?

Webber was a mistake? How? I said throughout I wouldn't have picked him in the initial squad based on his club form but once there he was very solid in the warm ups, George didn't outperform him and was there until George took the bull by the horns. In the world cup Webber was less risk.

Saracens cheated, sorry to break it to you but you did; along with Bath.

Answer the point arpund Silverware though beshocked; if Itoje played for Saints would he be a worse player?

In general if everyone's fit Itoje needs to get past Lawes, Launchbury,Attwood, Slater, Kitchener, Kruis, Parling, the new fad Symons who I still haven't seen play. For 3 spots i think that it's not stretching the truth to say he's not yet one of the 3 best locks. If we want him to get some game time you'd be looking at 6? I would be. Then he's got Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Ewers. probably more realistic?

I've seen him a few times in the flesh and I think it stood out how much he got involved in, chasing down box kicks, breakdown work etc. Anyway agree to disagree. I don't think you can expect someone to be the complete package before their international debut, and people complain when we don't bring youth through.

Agree there is less competition at 6. Most of the competition are towards the older end of the scale though. Ultimately it's going to depend a lot on what attributes he's looking for and the composition of the team. If not chosen I don't think it's because he's not ready, just that there are other good options.

You suggest Itoje has played better than Kruis, I've not really seen that, certainly not as a lock. Either way, I don't either are good enough for England personally.

Itoje has played half a dozen games since last year and I still don't think he looks anywhere near an International class player. He's a lad learning the ropes but he's still very raw.

I don't know why you can't jump off his bandwagon tbh, he's just not at the level you suggest he is.

Scottrf wrote:

killer938 wrote:To be fair to GeordieFalcon, I assume he is basing his opinion of Kitchener on more than just 1 game.

But not his opinion on Itoje. Every comment of his has based on how he played against Falcons.

We will see what Jones thinks. I don't think there's anyone actually involved in rugby who thinks he's an average club player.

Fair enough, I havn't mentioned Itoje, who I think has a huge future in the game, if not a huge present. Just not sure which position it will be in. If develops as a 6 then a partnership of Launchbury and Kitchener in the 2nd row with him at 6 provides pace, power, bulk at scrum time, lineout ability up and down the line and great work at ruck time. This, along with a proper 7 like Fraser would be a huge upgrade in my opinion on what we have been playing with.

no 7 & 1/2 where is Webber now?

You were championing Webber, saying that George shouldn't have been picked. It's quite clear from the RWC farce that George should have been given more responsibilities.

Saracens have been accused of cheating but no proof as of yet of their wrong doing. Of course you've probably never heard of the phrase - innocent till proven guilty....

If Itoje played for Saints would it make him a worse player? We don't know. Perhaps. Player development can differ. Would Mallinder have been as trusting as Mccall has? Not so sure. Mccall has been giving him plenty of game time in some big games.

I think as of now the only lock guaranteed to be ahead of him is Launchbury with two other lock spots up for grabs.

As I think Sgt Pooly said - it's a clean slate and whatever people say - he's been in good form. Enough to make the England squad will be Eddie Jones decision but I think he's done enough so far. I certainly don't think that any of the other contenders have surpassed him.

Itoje is basically up against Launchbury though as neither are strong in the lineout. Itoje is nowhere near as good as Launchbury.

killer938 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

killer938 wrote:To be fair to GeordieFalcon, I assume he is basing his opinion of Kitchener on more than just 1 game.

But not his opinion on Itoje. Every comment of his has based on how he played against Falcons.

We will see what Jones thinks. I don't think there's anyone actually involved in rugby who thinks he's an average club player.

Fair enough, I havn't mentioned Itoje, who I think has a huge future in the game, if not a huge present. Just not sure which position it will be in. If develops as a 6 then a partnership of Launchbury and Kitchener in the 2nd row with him at 6 provides pace, power, bulk at scrum time, lineout ability up and down the line and great work at ruck time. This, along with a proper 7 like Fraser would be a huge upgrade in my opinion on what we have been playing with.

Itolje is not ready for international rugby. Fraser on the other hand needs to be tested in the international arena.

I was saying I understood where Lancasters decision was made from and it made sense. George wasn't more impressive than Webber in the warm up and given Webber had been around the squad was less of a risk. I suggested the best way for Geroge to push would be to impress in training as Webber was looking solid in games. Doesn't really matter where Webber is now does it?

Saracens cheated. You can pretend all you wish, but it's a bit silly.

Your point about Itoje sums you up. Saracens or bust.

Agree Ozzy, Fraser looks very good. Same question for him as always; will he make it to the 6Ns fit?

Ozzy

That is why I said "if he develops". Not saying he is ready now but in a couple of years he should be and that is still a couple of years ahead of the World Cup.

killer

I am not convinced. He is a very good player, but I'm not seeing anything at the moment which is saying to me that he will go on and be a top international.

Fair enough, I can only base it on what I have seen, which I will admit is fairly limited, but I have been impressed, especially considering he has only just turned 21. Time will tell if he makes it because I have no doubt he will get opportunities.

no 7 & 1/2 Lancaster got it wrong. It was one of many poor decisions made by Lancaster who is the first English coach to take control of an English side who failed to make the RWC quarter finals.

One of the only saving graces of Lancaster is that he fell on his sword. Disappointing that none of his assistants were willing to do the same.

Oh joy - back to training be the important aspect of a player....

Perhaps Saracens did cheat but as of yet there is a lack of details to what went on. I think it's a bit silly to claim you know what happened when you don't.

Don't need to agree with me about Itoje. Perhaps you might listen to professionals and pundits though.

If a keyboard warrior says that Itoje is not ready for international rugby it must be true.

A coach who led England to RWC humiliation didn't pick Itoje in his RWC squad - did he get it right? Perhaps not.....

Absolutely, we're all guessing slightly at this stage.

beshocked wrote:If a keyboard warrior says that Itoje is not ready for international rugby it must be true.

Just when I was thinking some of my comments might have been a bit of a low blow.

Why did he get it wrong, thought Webber was decent in the WC. After all the hoo ha hooker wasn't really the issue. There's not really been a WC group like that before so you have to take the context of that as well surely?

I'm saying Itoje would be better aiming for flanker at the moment as he's not likely to push past the others at the moment. Not sure I've seen too many pundits pushing for Itoje to be starting lock for England but I may well have missed it.