Aviva Premiership - Round 6

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Table

Team	Played	--Won--	-Drawn-	---BP---	Points
Saracens	5	5	0	2	22
Exeter	5	4	0	3	19
Leicester	5	4	0	0	16
Harlequins	5	3	0	3	15
Wasps	5	3	0	2	14
Northampton	5	2	0	4	12
Sale Sharks	5	2	1	2	12
Bath	5	2	0	2	10
Worcester	5	2	0	2	10
Gloucester	5	2	0	1	9
Newcastle	5	0	1	0	2
London Irish	5	0	0	0	0

Fixtures:


Fri 4th Dec

19:45 Gloucester Rugby  v   Sale Sharks BT Sport
Both sides will not have been happy with their performances last week in games that failed to rise above the awful conditions. Gloucester's experiment of Twelvetrees at 10 and hook at 12 failed rather conspicuously as neither managed to add any control. Gloucester will be hoping for dry conditions in which their quick backs are more likely to thrive. Not for the first time this season, Danny Cipriani was unsuccessful with a "win-the-game" kick. After his break during the Challenge Cup matches he looked rusty, and with the court appearance hanging over him he will need to cast away all extraneous emotions and perform if Sale are to sneak anything from this game. Gloucester should win and overtake their visitors in the table, but it is hard to see either team threatening the top half of the table.


Sat 5th Dec

15:00 Harlequins  v   London Irish
Having secured a TBP at Sandy Park, Quins will be bemoaning their ill-discipline (plus attempts to run the clock down at the end of the first half) that allowed Exeter to sneak the win. Still, if you had offered them 2 points before they started their journey west they would probably have bitten your hand off. London Irish are the only team still pointless in the table, but can keep tyheir hopes up by looking at just how hard their opening fixtures have been. all five of their opponents so far finished in the top half of the table last season, and all bar Bath are their again. The trip to the Stoop continues the trend of playing form teams. Certainly Irish have no being playing as poorly as the table would suggest and, despite Quins being clear favourites, they are capable of getting something from this game.

15:00 Worcester Warriors  v   Leicester Tigers
Along with visitors Bath, Leicester did well to rise above the conditions last week and produce a game full of ambition and running - but perhaps not finishing. With Bell and Youngs both kicking far too long with the wind behind, Bath dominated territory and possession in the first half. However tigers showed real grit to hold them at bay, repeated this when down to 14 men in the second half and pulled away at the end. While the influence of Mauger can be seen in how Tigers are trying to play, the physicality with which tigers hit every tackle, ruck and maul was quintessential Cockers. They will need all that grit and fire for the visit to Sixways to face a Worcester side that are more than the sum of their parts. Wuss will be disappointed and even shocked by the score line last week. They did not play as poorly as a casual look at the score would suggest. DOC needs to avoid winding the ref up though. There were a number of 50/50 calls that went the Sarries way after some rather pointless in the refs face behaviour.


15:15 Bath Rugby  v   Northampton Saints BT Sport
The top two in last years regular season have struggled for form and consistency in the league so far, both with just two wins from five games. It is hard to decide who will be more confident going into this match. Bath played some excellent rugby in absolutely dire conditions at the weekend, but allowed Leicester's physicality to seize the day. Saints in conditions almost as bad featured in perhaps the worst match of the season - but dominated their opponent up front. Bath struggled at the lineout last week, but went toe-to-toe  at scrum time with the Leicester 8, almost gaining parity. they will need to raise their game further though for the visit of Saints beast of a scrum. I fell thi smatch could be decided by the conditions. If dry and still Bath should be able to avoid arm wrestle and seize the win. Wet and heavy and Saints abrasiveness and grunbt should dominate. Both sides will not wish to lose and slide down the table, but both sides will have their eyes on potentially tricky European matches.

17:30 Wasps  v   Exeter Chiefs BT Sport
Two teams that love to run the ball. Also two teams that have shown admirable defence this season at times, Wasps most notably in Europe, Chiefs for Leicester's visit. I am fascinated to see how this match will pan out. On paper Wasps look stronger, but Exeter have continued to make a mockery of such assertions. Battle of the back rows could be seismic.


Sun 6th Dec

15:00 Newcastle Falcons  v   Saracens BT Sport
It will be a shock if Saracens fail to win this game. Falcons should not be written off though. With one eye on Europe the defending champions will continue to rotate their players. Falcons came close to beating Sarries last season in Barnet with an all action attacking game - same again could make things interesting - but they have to be precise. Lose possession when in attack and they will see just how precisely Sarries counter attack.

Wasn't talking about you scottrf. I appreciate your support.

Perhaps Itoje isn't ready but we won't know unless he is given an opportunity.

The same old argument is : he's not ready, how do you know? Have you seen him in training? Is he an awful player in training?

no 7 & 1/2 did you watch the RWC? Hooker wasn't an issue? T.Youngs lacked power, Parling and Wood were there to babysit him which weakened the pack, even then the ball wasn't clean. As for Webber - you say he was decent, what did he do of note?

Wasn't a WC group like it but at home, England shouldn't be knocked out of their own RWC. It was a low point for English rugby.

Some pundits have considered Itoje as a potential England captain....

He was solid beshocked and yes for me hooker wasn't an important aspect as some perhaps called it to be. Context of that group is important. Much more important was the change in game plan.

I would also consider Itoje a potential captain but not in this 6Ns.

The only person I've seen suggest Itoje as captain is Hugh Godwin of the Independent who doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

Another "we won't know unless we try him" argument.......great.

You can tell he's not good enough just by watching him, he's not better than Launchbury by a distance.

no 7 & 1/2 solid? I guess we can agree to disagree as usual.

by your logic Lancaster shouldn't have fallen on his sword.

Not my fault guv....bloody tough group... doesn't matter.

Shouldn't have gone out in the pool stages.

My own take is that Lawes, Attwood and Launchbury are better locks around which to build your team, with Slater, Kruis and Kitchener as back-up. Not a comment about form, but more that those are the types of player I would look to at lock for building an international pack.

When I consider the options England have at 6, I think the cupboard looks a bit more bare personally. Wood, Robshaw and Haskell all present decent options, and all are experienced, tried and tested players, but if England are looking for a more powerful player to really make an impact in the contact areas, then I truly think Itoje is a real long term contender for the jersey. Without going all Sarries crazy, he could also work nicely with Fraser at 7 and Vunipola at 8, with Nathan Hughes on the bench.

I'd take Ewers at 6 over Itoje for England. he at least plays that position regularly for his club.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'd take Ewers at 6 over Itoje for England.  he at least plays that position regularly for his club.

He is making a strong case, and I should have added him to my list. Powerful player and in fine form. I could see him making a handy impact sub actually, particularly given his coverage of 6 and 8.

Don't see Itoje as a 6, long term prospect at lock but better players ahead of him currently. I like his attitude though.

I hope for England's sake Eddie Jones doesn't adopt the Saracens style of play, too negative and won't work at international level imo.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 solid? I guess we can agree to disagree as usual.

by your logic Lancaster shouldn't have fallen on his sword.

Not my fault guv....bloody tough group... doesn't matter.

Shouldn't have gone out in the pool stages.

I'm still undecided on whether it's a good thing in the long term. Jones is now getting a group of players approaching their peak along with more fantastic youngsters, I think he'll do well but Ithink Lancaster would have as well. Ithink it was important we got some fresh ideas in the support staff either way. Lancaster was always going to offer his resignation though, the type of guy he is. If you thought Webber wasn't solid we do differ again.

The way I see it, there is no rush with Itoje. There aren’t many international sides out there with 21 year old second rowers; especially ones who need to fill out a bit more. We can all see that he WILL be an England player one day soon; why not let Sarries continue his education for now? It’s not like we’re especially short of decent locks at the moment.

As said before, a lot of these guys aren't going to come into the team/squad/EPS until the summer tour.

The 6N's will be the majority of that same squad that's grown over the last four years, with the Eddie Jones take on tactics and a few changes based on injuries etc

Cumbrian wrote:The way I see it, there is no rush with Itoje.  There aren’t many international sides out there with 21 year old second rowers; especially ones who need to fill out a bit more.  We can all see that he WILL be an England player one day soon; why not let Sarries continue his education for now?  It’s not like we’re especially short of decent locks at the moment.  

But he has an AP winners medal, that surely means he's better than the other options?

Fraser will be worth a look when he can show that he can stay fit for 7 or 8 full games in succession. Until that point, he's not much use in a tournament or tour.

Itoje could well be an exceptional player, but I think opinion of his performances has been magnified by the fact that he's a big, visible lad. When he does stuff, it gets seen. But as others have said it seems likely that he will need to work on his pace to be an international flanker or his lineout to be an international lock.

Brian Moore has made the very good point in the Telegraph today that England have a core squad who could have a core of 70 cap players supported by a large group of 40 cappers and a few bolters by 2019. That's the sort of level of experience you need to close out games like the Wales one, and to turn the momentum games like the Australia one. But to do that, Jones cannot afford to chuck out large numbers of the current squad in favour of whoever has had a few good club games.

"We'll never know unless they get the chance" is a very easy phrase to say, but in practice everyone who gets a chance is stopping someone else from getting theirs, or from extending their experience.

The important question is: which contenders are the right ones to give a chance to now?

Club form is not always a good indicator of who can adapt well to a particular system or gameplan. Chris Ashton is the poster child for that: great for Sarries, poor under Lancaster's system.

The best proxy an international coach has for who is ready to step up is to look at them training with the other candidates. We rarely get to see that, so we undervalue it. But I'd expect Jones to try out most new potential caps in training through the Saxons - if England's injury record continues he will have plenty of opportunity to bring them through.

Forgot Clifford in the list of 6s as well.

Guys, can we try and leave salary cap stuff out of this.

Also - really discussions about players suitability for england should be moved to one of the plethora of threads on Int section

Well that was a canny wee debate....ive been right irritable all day

No 7&1/2 wrote:Forgot Clifford in the list of 6s as well.

I think long term Clifford could be a real option at 7; he's fairly big but fast and powerful, and he gets his share of turnovers. He can also cover all 3 back row positions to a high standard so is an interesting bench option (though maybe not in tandem with Itoje). Would like to see him in the Saxons if he is fully recovered from his concussion.

So whos the worst so far?

Us, Irish or Wuss

Not Wuss.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So whos the worst so far?

Us, Irish or Wuss

Hate to say it, but it between Irish and falcons

I would agree.

Well at least we're the best at being bad ...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Answer the point around Silverware though beshocked; if Itoje played for Saints would he be a worse player?

If Itoje played for Saints he would be a much better player than he is now..... 
And would probably have iced his selection in the senior England side by now, too.  Jeez.

That's if he could force his way into Saints line-up, that is.

Cumbrian wrote:The way I see it, there is no rush with Itoje.  There aren’t many international sides out there with 21 year old second rowers; especially ones who need to fill out a bit more.  We can all see that he WILL be an England player one day soon; why not let Sarries continue his education for now?  It’s not like we’re especially short of decent locks at the moment.  

That sounds vaguely sinister to me.  
Just like this:  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBnldmEJxgw

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:The way I see it, there is no rush with Itoje.  There aren’t many international sides out there with 21 year old second rowers; especially ones who need to fill out a bit more.  We can all see that he WILL be an England player one day soon; why not let Sarries continue his education for now?  It’s not like we’re especially short of decent locks at the moment.  

But he has an AP winners medal, that surely means he's better than the other options?

Ha!  Now you’re just being naughty!

doctor_grey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:The way I see it, there is no rush with Itoje.  There aren’t many international sides out there with 21 year old second rowers; especially ones who need to fill out a bit more.  We can all see that he WILL be an England player one day soon; why not let Sarries continue his education for now? It’s not like we’re especially short of decent locks at the moment.  

That sounds vaguely sinister to me.  
Just like this:  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBnldmEJxgw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oGMbAIcXCQ

*something* *something* *something* ‘Straight throw’ *something* *something* *something* ‘Lineout complete’

Quality bit of Family guy there!

Poorfour wrote:Fraser will be worth a look when he can show that he can stay fit for 7 or 8 full games in succession. Until that point, he's not much use in a tournament or tour.

Itoje could well be an exceptional player, but I think opinion of his performances has been magnified by the fact that he's a big, visible lad. When he does stuff, it gets seen. But as others have said it seems likely that he will need to work on his pace to be an international flanker or his lineout to be an international lock.

Brian Moore has made the very good point in the Telegraph today that England have a core squad who could have a core of 70 cap players supported by a large group of 40 cappers and a few bolters by 2019. That's the sort of level of experience you need to close out games like the Wales one, and to turn the momentum games like the Australia one. But to do that, Jones cannot afford to chuck out large numbers of the current squad in favour of whoever has had a few good club games.

"We'll never know unless they get the chance" is a very easy phrase to say, but in practice everyone who gets a chance is stopping someone else from getting theirs, or from extending their experience.

The important question is: which contenders are the right ones to give a chance to now?

Club form is not always a good indicator of who can adapt well to a particular system or gameplan. Chris Ashton is the poster child for that: great for Sarries, poor under Lancaster's system.

The best proxy an international coach has for who is ready to step up is to look at them training with the other candidates. We rarely get to see that, so we undervalue it. But I'd expect Jones to try out most new potential caps in training through the Saxons - if England's injury record continues he will have plenty of opportunity to bring them through.

Big visible lad? There are some who believe that Itoje is too small to be an international lock. I've watched him quite a bit and he seems to get himself involved an awful lot. Saracens have one of the best lineouts in the AP - surely he contributes?

I agree which contenders get given a chance now is a very big question. Eddie Jones needs to make sure he gets it right.

On the contrary I think some posters take training too seriously. It's one indication but shouldn't be the only factor as training is not a live match.

A real match is a completely different thing. Have to adapt as the game goes on to an ever changing environment. A team needs to mix things up and stop things from being predictable. Plus of course the pressure is different. Sure there is a little pressure to perform in training but it's not the same as doing so in a match.

At the risk of being shouted at by LT for non club discussion what would be the right choice for Jones? I assume there's only 1?

Big visible lad? There are some who believe that Itoje is too small to be an international lock. I've watched him quite a bit and he seems to get himself involved an awful lot. Saracens have one of the best lineouts in the AP - surely he contributes?

It's you that's bigging him up Beshocked, does he add much to that that lineout? Do you have the stats? From what I've seen Kruis takes a lot of the responsibility with the backrow pitching in also, I've not see Itoje take a lot of ball or steal any. From that conclusion you could maybe say Saracens have a good line out despite Itoje.

He's in direct competition with Lauchbury for that 4 jersey with both not too good in line out, he's just nowhere near that level.

I seriously can't believe we're still talking about Itoje.......

Based on current form I would say that Jones should pick Itoje in the England squad whether it's as a lock or 6 - I think he should feature.

Of course he's not the only prospect - if Kitchener puts in some good performances then he might well push ahead of the others. Kruis is of course another strong contender, Slater could feature.

I would say the one player who should be dropped most definitely is Attwood.

Launchbury is the man in possession, as for Lawes - who knows?

As for 6 perhaps Ewers should feature. 7 there is of course Ksevic and Fraser (if he can get enough game time and stay fit).

To be honest I wanted Lancaster to try out the likes of Ksevic,Ewers and Itoje but he failed miserably in that regard. Should have more of an idea of what they offer by now.

Actually most of us have been praising Maro this season - he did after all get into the 606 EPS (though as cover for back row and second row).

Thing is B is so strident in his views, and so often dismissive of any alternative, that he raises peoples heckles. He also tends to cherry pick comments, take them out of context  andf then try and smack us over the head with a faulty conclusion.

P4 wrote a long and reasoned piece, but the only bit picked up on was the Big visible lad. Compared to most other players (outside the second row) he is big. Add in that he looks very different to the other forwards and he tends to be very visible. Of course this visibility counts against him too as when you look back on matches you realise you have not seen him at lineout time.

He will, probably, be a mighty fine player. I think we all agree with that. Just the vast majority believe that right now he is not good enough to start for England.

The age old probelm with England is there's loads of options and not everyone agrees on who's the best choice. When lancaster didn't have a shed load of experience anyway moving onto the next best thing isn't always helpful. I think you've hit the nail on the head with Itoje though, no ones quite decided on if he's best at lock or 6 and where he should be blooded for England if at all. Danger for players to become a jack of all trades.

Saracens seem to have decided he will be a lock - and long run I think they are correct. but the pathway to the side there is, atm, tougher. I also stand by my assertion that as a second row forward Kruis has been better this season so far. We can sometimes be guilty of looking at what a player does outside of the core skills and elevating their performance accordingly. Itoje has been prominent at the breakdown, but rarely used as a lineout jumper and struggled at times to keep his side of the scrum as strong as the other.

I am not saying he has been poor for Saracens, not in the slightest. However playing in the best side makes lots of players appear a touch better than they are. Chris Wyles has been looking great this season - but would any one really, honestly, claim he would (if English) be a contender for an England wing spot.


any way I must now go and shout at myself for getting dragged into an international discussion on an AP thread.

Back later.

Londontiger not good enough to start for England - that's fair enough. Perhaps not but I want to see him in the squad and maybe on the bench vs Scotland if he earns it.

Not as dismissive as you think. I want the best for England as you do. I have just have a differing vision.

I wanted Eddie Jones as head coach. I got my wish - will it work? No guarantee of that. I might have to eat humble pie. We won't know till his squad choice and the first game of the 6 nations.

I'll be honest - I feel like I am vindicated on a few occasions. I feel like Lancaster was making mistakes during the RWC and so it proved. Yes you can argue he was a bit unlucky with the group and injuries but that didn't stop Wales who faced the same issues.

It's not just Itoje, I want to see what other players like Ewers and Ksevic can do at international level but with limited spaces Eddie Jones has some tough choices.

You have a hard carrying 6 like Ewers, a 6.5 like Robshaw or Wood, Haskell who has played 6,7 and 8.

Balance will be interesting.

Then again there needs to be enough lineout options - you know that if you pick Billy or Morgan at 8 then you limit your lineout.

When is Hughes EQed?

Please give Jones more of a chance than 1 game though. He's only made the right choices if we win this 6Ns for you?

Hughes qualifies in June I believe.

I think first and foremost he needs to start his tenure with a win.

A rejuvenated Scotland away from home isn't the easiest task but it's not the hardest.

And if the game's lost?

Hang on...if your mentioning Robshaw, Wood etc...how come no ones mentioning Mark Wilson???

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hang on...if your mentioning Robshaw, Wood etc...how come no ones mentioning Mark Wilson???

Why is a 0 cap player not mentioned in the same breath as a former and current England captain?

Mark Wilson will get his chance in the match vs Wales that nobody wants and players involved in the AP semis or final won't be involved. Well unless there we can expect a new year surge up the table from Newcastle...!

Bathman_in_London wrote:Mark Wilson will get his chance in the match vs Wales that nobody wants and players involved in the AP semis or final won't be involved. Well unless there we can expect a new year surge up the table from Newcastle...!

Its inevitable Bathman...

Surely Kvesic and a 6 will get a chance in that game, perhaps even Ewers or Haskell (as captain perhaps?).

Scottrf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hang on...if your mentioning Robshaw, Wood etc...how come no ones mentioning Mark Wilson???

Why is a 0 cap player not mentioned in the same breath as a former and current England captain?

Yes!

Mark Who?

LondonTiger wrote:Mark Who?

I believe he'll be making a step up from the academy to join Tigers' senior squad next season...

HongKongCherry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Mark Who?

I believe he'll be making a step up from the academy to join Tigers' senior squad next season...

Nah that route's well and truly shut now....they'll all go to Saints instead!

Ironically LT

I was making it quite clear that our lock Sean Robinson was very good on Sunday but is not ever going to be an England player...Deano makes a call

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/newcastle-falcons-george-mcguigan-should-10559747

Asked if he would like to see the hooker in England’s second-string Saxons squad, Richards said: “I would like to see him play for the full England team.

“I don’t think Jamie George was any better than he was on Sunday, and he has been capped by England.

“In my humble opinion George is coming on leaps and bounds, and deserves some sort of recognition.”

Asked which of his Newcastle side he believes are worthy of Jones’ attention, Richards added: “There are loads of our boys who could have a serious claim.

“George, for starters, I thought, played incredibly well against Saracens.

“Mark Wilson and Will Welch too, then Sean Robinson showed again why we rate him so highly.

“He ran the lineouts really well and caused them problems, and Micky Young was another who showed up well.

“There are a lot of good boys here, and a lot who are yet to come through.”

Sorry Dean, I believe he's a very good club player better than Botha, but no more. And as for Micky Young?? No No No

GeordieFalcon wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Mark Who?

I believe he'll be making a step up from the academy to join Tigers' senior squad next season...

Nah that route's well and truly shut now....they'll all go to Saints instead!

We'll let Tigers have this one, with Wood, Clark, Dickinson, Picamoles, Gibson and Harrison plus young talent coming through we should be well set in the backrow next season.

Id rather keep him...he's our best player.