England Squad Named

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SQUAD IN FULL

Here it is: Eddie Jones first squad as England head coach.

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Chris Ashton (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Per Sky

Rugby Fan wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah, I really hope we can keep continuity whilst making our strength in depth a strength rather than a weakness, if that makes sense?

Recognising its an issue is the first challenge. Eddie needs to pick a 23 and stick with it and i expect to see a lot less trial and error than under the last guy

Eddie Jones is more inclined to trial and error than Lancaster. In many cases, Lancaster only made changes because injuries obliged him to.

It's the dream of every coach to pick a squad and get it right first time, but few are lucky enough to do so. If results don't come, you can either stick with your first choice, and hope they deliver what you originally expected, or swap out some players. Lancaster is more in the first camp, while Jones leans the other way.

The main reason Jones will change players is if he finds they don't respond to his coaching. That's been a feature all through his career, and it would be a miracle if all the England players click with him. I'm not talking about personality clashes, just whether they can do everything he asks of them. The other reasons Jones changes players is if he wants a different strategy or different dynamic. Again, he might be lucky and find everything straight away. It's more likely he'll shake things up if it doesn't feel right.

Is that right? Well i hope he finds they respond because what you don't need is more of the same. I'd like to be able to know who is playing in what position one week to the next. It really is extraordinary to see how balls out he is, a complete change of emphasis and attitude and very open and coherent communication about the rugby not the 'culture'

The scots game really is going to be a spectacle.

Gwlad wrote:...I'd like to be able to know who is playing in what position one week to the next...

You also need to develop the side. I'm quite pleased Dusty Hare isn't still holding the 15 shirt.

When Gatland took over, he had Ryan Jones as captain and recalled Martyn Williams from retirement. By the time the World Cup came round, Jones wasn't captain, and the new man, Warburton, was in William's position. I don't think any Welsh supporters think those kinds of changes are bad ones for a coach to make.

I'm surprised with this thinking that Beaumont is the form 8, have people actually watched him much as I don't think he's been that great tbh. Similar with Cipriani who was bang average until a few weeks back.

Guardian today:

“The biggest risk was not to take a risk,” said Jones, after inviting Hartley to reintroduce a bit of mongrel to an English pack he has already identified as needing more bite.

Journo being a bit funny there ? Well I chuckled at that tbh.
Biting mongrel.lol. .....he may wind up in the pound.

Well said, Rugby Fan. Lancaster was accused of chopping and changing but actually only Hansen used fewer players over the last world cup cycle. The major area of change was in the threequarters, and that was mainly down to the injury list.

Jones has been pretty clear that he doesn't want to throw inexperienced players in against Scotland away, and we all know that England have had an issue with the number of leaders on the pitch. I don't particularly like Hartley and would prefer he wasn't in the squad as I doubt he will be there in 2019, but I can see the logic of it.

Eddie wants to start with a base of known players and will bring the newbies through as and when he thinks they are ready to integrate with the team. Individual form is a necessary but not sufficient condition - new players will also have to show that they can execute Eddie's plans better than the more experienced ones, and he probably won't change too many combinations at once unless forced by injury.

George will get his chance sooner rather than later and has a good chance to be the first choice hooker through the RWC cycle.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm surprised with this thinking that Beaumont is the form 8, have people actually watched him much as I don't think he's been that great tbh. Similar with Cipriani who was bang average until a few weeks back.

The beauty of so many fans and so many players. I'm sure you'll have thoughts on who should have been picked and wasn't either now or under Lancaster.

Rugby Fan can't say I am shocked. The appointment was leaked a long time ago. Disappointed - yes.

no 7 & 1/2 yes I do have more support for Saracens players but that's because I watch them more often and know how good they are.

George was unlucky to get mere scraps of gametime in the RWC and warm ups, seems doomed for the same fate with Hartley as undroppable captain.

To be honest with Cipriani I remember him choking twice this season, Diamond wasn't pleased, he's got his flaws too.

As for Simpson I remember watching him vs Bath in the ERCC, his game management was poor, Wasps lost that one. Only one game but still...

Wasps have been inconsistent this season.

I think most of us know how good they are. They aren't head and shoulders above the rest though. My point is it isn't a massive mistake if close calls go one way or the other.

Of course Cipriani isn't perfect no one is. Not sure when he choked but plenty do.

I'm actually with Beshocked on Simpson

He's electric but can struggle with basics and game management, I'd put Youngs and Care well ahead. He'd be an interesting bench option though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34713925

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34911832


Sale director of rugby Steve Diamond:

"Let's be honest, we should have kicked the goal at the end to win the game. We should have kicked the goal against Harlequins to win the game so we're six points off where we should be.

"With what's happening at the moment, where people want to go to so-called super clubs, we should be in the top three.

"We've got to look at that and go again. We've got to go to Gloucester, a difficult place to go on a Friday night, and get something out of it.

"We're a good team, with a good set of lads and we're better than that, which is the disappointment. They know, in no uncertain terms. if you want to be in the top four or top six you've got to win your home games."


I guess it depends if you think picking a hooker whose not played well for England over a year, has a disciplinary record worse than the vast majority of players and has been struggling for fitness is a close call compared to picking arguably the form hooker in Europe whose been consistent for a year. Hasn't let England down in his scraps of gametime for England either.

Yep close.....

Saracens players are soooooo hard done by, I think there's an agenda.

It is a close call beshocked. Cipriani has missed 2 kicks? You have seen how many Farrell has missed recently? And dropping the ball.

George isn't a clear 1st choice but they'll be good as 1 and 2 whichever way around they are picked.

Sgt Pooly no not all. Just Jamie George. You might not believe but I can understand dropping Barritt and Wigglesworth - shock horror. Dropping Barritt leaves a lack of experience of 12 but England need to move on.

I understand why Brown is first choice 15 not Goode.

As for Fraser sadly he's not playing as well as Ksevic.

I even understand why Eddie Jones picked Hartley. I just don't agree with the decision.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm actually with Beshocked on Simpson

He's electric but can struggle with basics and game management, I'd put Youngs and Care well ahead. He'd be an interesting bench option though.

I think Simpson has come leaps on bounds on that. Think he's edged ahead of Care personally and I'd have included him from the bench. Think he's injured now anyway but he'll be pushing I'm sure.

Cool beshocked.

no 7 & 1/2

Eddie Jones has made it crystal clear - Hartley is his no 1 hooker, undroppable. You don't make someone captain then drop them to the bench do you?

Cipriani missed two match winning kicks yes. Farrell did not cost his team. None of his missed kicks vs Ulster for example made the difference between a win or loss.

I am sure we would be hearing more about Farrell's try fail if it cost Sarries the match and rightly so.

I believe in consequences more than errors themselves. Errors are bad of course but they are worse if they lead to points for the opposition.

E.g. you get some intercepts that lead to tries, some that don't. It's worse if the intercept leads to a try. Even worse if the intercept is a match winning score.

I think if George comes on and is miles better he'll get a start.

The kicking thing is a little odd to me. Farrell does miss quite a lot but he plays for a team which gives greater opportunity for that to not matter. Talking about a 3rd team (England) means this doesn't really come into affect. I know you believe purely in the consequences and I don't. I judge the actual mistake, we're done this before!

How can someone show they are miles better in 20 minutes if he gets that much.

It's difficult to prove yourself with scraps.

Remember I've seen George struggle for gametime at Saracens. Only with Brits out with a long term injury did, George get a decent starting run.

He started every game last season through necessity but he became first choice by right.

You say Farrell misses quite a lot - is his kicking percentage really that as bad as you think? One off day with the boot vs Ulster isn't a fair reflection IMO.

Not purely in consequences but they are important.

Just because someone is an experienced coach doesn't mean them right all the time.

I don't agree that 37 year old De Kock should be 2nd choice 9 for Saracens instead of youngster Spencer.

I don't agree that Gill is 2nd choice LH for Saracens instead of Barrington.

Have to let these youngsters have game time because you never know they might be better than what we've got.

The argument against is generally lack of experience, well of course player X is going to have a lack of experience if you don't pick him.

The Haskell vs Clifford and Ksevic is the same. Haskell has the experience but he's a known quantity for better or for worse.

England have been looking for someone who can help with the general scavenging and turnovers that someone like a Pocock brings.

Haskell for all his pluses and minuses is not the type I think England need at openside.


England might well look to shoehorn Farrell in at 12 to look for that elusive ball playing 12 but Farrell is not what I would call a natural creative player.

He lacks pace,power or the creativity for 12 in my opinion.

Rugby is partly about utilising a players' strengths. Farrell's are best suited to 10 in my opinion.

George will get time to impress beshocked I'm sure. And I'm sure he will impress.

I'm not saying Farrell is a bad kicker but he has had off days.

Agree completely with Haskell, hoping thats just a smoke screen.

I'm trying to keep an open mind with Farrell, he's not set the world alight at 12 for England in the past but lets hope if he's there we get the same result as Lancasters first match.

beshocked wrote:Eddie Jones has made it crystal clear - Hartley is his no 1 hooker, undroppable. You don't make someone captain then drop them to the bench do you?

Clearly you haven't watched much of Hartley's club side.

no 7 & 1/2 wish I shared your optimism.

Yes Farrell has had off days but his % is still generally good.

I doubt Haskell at 7 is a smokescreen. The press seem to be quite accurate about Eddie Jones' decisions. Didn't get the squad quite right but predicted Hartley's captaincy well in advance.

George Ford to charge down a kick, score a try and England just about scrape over the line?

beshocked wrote:The Haskell vs Clifford and Ksevic is the same. Haskell has the experience but he's a known quantity for better or for worse.

Now I actually disagree here.

Hartley (ignoring the ongoing disciplinary debate) has in general been a very good and consistent player for England. You know what you get...rock solid set piece duties, and powerful player round the fringes and breakdown. Only his carrying isn't where we want it.
His selection shouldn't be a huge debate.
The only question really is his fitness...has he recovered from his injuries. If not then J.George will start (with great support and advice from Hartley) and Brown will be Captain.

Haskell....he's a player who has NEVER fulfilled his promise at this level. Why play him when we have Kvesic as an out and out poaching (that Eddie says he wants) or even Clifford.

Well we all thought it was Fraser lining up at 7 from some leaks so you never know.

This England side is in a much better place than 4 years ago imo. Set piece looks to be strong judging by the guys in the squad. A few questions on the backrow but the backs look creative and some real speed there. Jones has a great opportunity to build and polish Lancasters work in the next few months.

I think Scotland can beat us, they are always capable. If we play anywhere near how we can we'll win with something to spare. If we go in like the WC we'll come away with a harsh lesson. I'm confident about this 6Ns though.

"i think a good coach has been poorly advised to select Hartley as captain. Time will tell, I may be completely wrong.

But I find it very hard to accept a player who represents all that can be bad about contact sport."

It's started. Opposition fans don't like it when England get tough. Go on Eddie. You the man.

Even if Farrell has off days, he's consistently more reliable than Ford and in addition to being more accurate his range is worthy of a test match kicker. Ford has the range of a club player only.

Scotland, Ireland, Wales all have superior kickers than Ford.  What it means is that  in tight games England can't rely on simply staying in the game, they have go out and win it which means you have to have bigger gaps, take more chances.

For all of Ford's obvious benefits I'd still go with Farrell for that reason at 10. At least you have a chance that way. In South Africa the 10 almost always goes to the guy who is the best kicker. Its why Andrew Merthens has 80 caps, why Carlos Spencer has 35. Playing them at 10-12 is an option but it didn't look natural for Farrell and I don't think it ever will.

Not sure about Scotlands kicking to be honest. From what I've seen of Glasgow it's suspect.

Scottrf wrote:Not sure about Scotlands kicking to be honest. From what I've seen of Glasgow it's suspect.

Laidlaw doesn't miss many, but like Ford doesn't have the range. Hogg fancies himself from long range though, not sure about Russell's goalkicking

Farrell is head and shoulders above Ford at the moment. He's playing very well. I hope to see him start at 10.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well we all thought it was Fraser lining up at 7 from some leaks so you never know.

This England side is in a much better place than 4 years ago imo. Set piece looks to be strong judging by the guys in the squad. A few questions on the backrow but the backs look creative and some real speed there. Jones has a great opportunity to build and polish Lancasters work in the next few months.

I think Scotland can beat us, they are always capable. If we play anywhere near how we can we'll win with something to spare. If we go in like the WC we'll come away with a harsh lesson. I'm confident about this 6Ns though.

I agree .

Jamie George can probably feel a little unlucky...but he will be on the bench. First up, Eddie has gone for proven solid platform and what we need.

There are other areas (as you say the back row, centres) where we have no options and actual debutants ARE needed. Blood those first with experienced players like Hartley around them.

Meanwhile Jamie George comes off the bench and gains experience himself and will push for the starting spot on the summer tours...or maybe even the latter stages of the 6n..IF Hartley isn't functioning.

Come the Summer tours Jones can re-assess where the team is.

Nothing is set in stone.

BamBam wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Not sure about Scotlands kicking to be honest. From what I've seen of Glasgow it's suspect.

Laidlaw doesn't miss many, but like Ford doesn't have the range. Hogg fancies himself from long range though, not sure about Russell's goalkicking

To be honest, I forgot about Laidlaw. Russell and Hogg have both missed quite a few from what I've seen of Glasgow.

Wrong to an extent Fa, Ford has a lower range than some but if daly plays or Slade in time it doesn't matter anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wrong to an extent Fa, Ford has a lower range than some but if daly plays or Slade in time it doesn't matter anyway.

Even so Ford isn't a Laidlaw within the 10m line. He's still only a decent kicker there whereas guys like Farrell, Laidlaw, Sexton & Bigger/Halfpenny are all deadly accurate in that range.. and all but Laidlaw can add a further 10 metres to that too.

Can he become a decent kicker... perhaps, I recall the impact Alfred had on a host of kickers 15 years back yet his lack of strength should be seen as an issue. He has no reason to have a colt level range anymore.

Ford is quite close to Farrell now to be fair. Improved a hell of a lot from the player who was under par at the start of his career and now has a lot more distance. think it was you I've discussed this with before but watch more of the prem and you will see it's not an issue for him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ford is quite close to Farrell now to be fair. Improved a hell of a lot from the player who was under par at the start of his career and now has a lot more distance. think it was you I've discussed this with before but watch more of the prem and you will see it's not an issue for him.

If England go with Daly then he will take the long kicks so Ford's relative lack of distance is less of an issue.

His tackling is still however an issue as exemplified by the way Habana handed him off.

I didn't see any of the match bar Armitage scoring where Ford was handed off (again by the sounds of it), though I wouldn't have expected anyone to stop him there. Not worried about his tackling as he normally gets his man, though he rarely stops them dead.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:The Haskell vs Clifford and Ksevic is the same. Haskell has the experience but he's a known quantity for better or for worse.

Now I actually disagree here.

Hartley (ignoring the ongoing disciplinary debate) has in general been a very good and consistent player for England. You know what you get...rock solid set piece duties, and powerful player round the fringes and breakdown. Only his carrying isn't where we want it.
His selection shouldn't be a huge debate.
The only question really is his fitness...has he recovered from his injuries. If not then J.George will start (with great support and advice from Hartley) and Brown will be Captain.

Haskell....he's a player who has NEVER fulfilled his promise at this level. Why play him when we have Kvesic as an out and out poaching (that Eddie says he wants) or even Clifford.

Geordiefalcon

Selection in the squad is not the debate. Selection in the 23 vs Scotland is not the debate.

It's Hartley as nailed on starter vs Scotland and captain which is the debate.

I think Haskell vs Hartley is a fair description. I would have neither in the starting XV too.

Haskell is actually captain of Wasps, not a former captain, just like Hartley he's got over 60 caps for England, just like him he had a poor 2015 6 nations comparable to other players. He has had questionable discipline just like Hartley.

Haskell is a known quantity for better or worse just like Hartley. Both are a very similar age.

The case of Haskell vs Clifford and Ksevic is quite similar.

The young guns potentially missing out due to their lack of experience but could maybe add something fresh and different.

Haskell isn't struggling for fitness or club form though....

Nothing is set in stone....except for Hartley...

Presumably Jones thinks Hartleys a starter and that wouldn't really change if he weren't captain. Do you think George isn't good enough to impress from the bench? Or if he's better than Hartley he'll just get ignored?

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2
Eddie Jones has made it crystal clear - Hartley is his no 1 hooker, undroppable. You don't make someone captain then drop them to the bench do you?

While I agree with you on George having deserved more game time to date, and that a strong case could be made for him being the form hooker, I think you are catastrophizing with your analysis. George will still get game time - the jettisoning of Webber and Youngs makes that clear. Yes, he won't be first choice for a while, but surely it's better to ease players in anyway?

I suspect what this also means is that if Hartley comes off at 60 minutes, someone like Launchbury may take the armband. That will also provide them with experience of captaincy without the outright pressure that comes with holding the position full-time.

Jones has provided a clear rationale for appointing Hartley as captain. He wants a hard, physical, uncompromising England team. Hartley epitomises those qualities, even though it's true he does cross the line too often. Who else in the England squad brings those qualities? If that's what Eddie Jones wants from his captain, Hartley is the obvious candidate. Yes, that's tough on George, but sometimes the best team doesn't consist of the 15 best players.

jbeadlesbigrighthand if we went that philosophy all the time then you wouldn't have players making a notable difference.

I've criticised Lancaster of course for some of his selections but Burrell in 2014 - good choice, inspired selection, Joseph - 2015. Neither would have got an opportunity without injuries though. Two new players who I think were two of England's best players in those competitions.


in all likelihood the only opportunity that George would get to start is if Hartley is injured. Now personally you might think scraps of gametime is great for a player's development I don't. George got scraps of gametime in the RWC, he's ready to start.

It's a shame but many players have to hope their team mates get injured so they get a chance to prove their worth as a starter. Whether at club or international level.

Well I would hardly say the likes of Haskell,Tuilagi,George,Itoje the Vunipola bros,Brown,Nowell are not hard, physical and uncompromising.

Ultimately do you want a fresh start or stick with the same old selections.

Hartley at hooker, Haskell at 7, Farrell at 12 - Lancaster probably would have approved of that.

beshocked wrote:
Ultimately do you want a fresh start or stick with the same old selections.

It's not black and white like that though. Jones may be a new broom but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater (apols for the mixed metaphor!). It will be a revised side, but if you bring it too many new players and systems straight away you don't get a fair reflection of new players. The players may not know Jones too well but they do know each other and familiarity will be important while Jones puts his stamp on things. We may not agree with individual selections but Jones is building a side and he was never going to just bring in a completely new group with just the 'form' players.

beshocked wrote:jbeadlesbigrighthand if we went that philosophy all the time then you wouldn't have players making a notable difference.

I've criticised Lancaster of course for some of his selections but Burrell in 2014 - good choice, inspired selection, Joseph - 2015. Neither would have got an opportunity without injuries though. Two new players who I think were two of England's best players in those competitions.


in all likelihood the only opportunity that George would get to start is if Hartley is injured. Now personally you might think scraps of gametime is great for a player's development I don't. George got scraps of gametime in the RWC, he's ready to start.

It's a shame but many players have to hope their team mates get injured so they get a chance to prove their worth as a starter. Whether at club or international level.

Well I would hardly say the likes of Haskell,Tuilagi,George,Itoje the Vunipola bros,Brown,Nowell are not hard, physical and uncompromising.

Ultimately do you want a fresh start or stick with the same old selections.

Hartley at hooker, Haskell at 7, Farrell at 12 - Lancaster probably would have approved of that.

I do agree with you re George - I think he's a quality player who will be an England regular for a long time. However, unlike you, I can understand Jones' rationale.

You've provided a list of other players who have a physical edge (though I'm not sure they all also have Hartley's mental strength), but which of those players would you want as captain? As I said, if you want a hard captain, Hartley is a good choice. The only other genuine option from your list would be Haskell, and to my mind, that would be the far worse option in terms of blocking the path of young players since Haskell isn't even the type of 7 that people want.

The fact is though, that this is just one player, selected as a special case - i.e. for what he brings to the team in terms of setting a tone. Is it tough for Jamie George? Undeniably. But if this is the worst selection blunder Jones makes, then I won't be too unhappy.

Cyril

I guess it depends what you were hoping for.

jbeadlesbrighthand I suppose it depends what you mean by mental strength....

I would say all those players have significantly contributed to their respective team winning on various occasions. That's what I want - players who can inspire others. Even non "hard" players like Youngs,Launchbury and Robshaw can do that too of course.

To be honest I'd prefer Brown as captain out of the "hard" options.

Think Itoje is a potential future England captain but not as of yet.

Beshocked

Selection in the squad is not the debate. Selection in the 23 vs Scotland is not the debate.

It's Hartley as nailed on starter vs Scotland and captain which is the debate.

For you it is. For the majority of others they accept the selection, the reason for it and that its likely, not a set in stone decision for long term.

I think Haskell vs Hartley is a fair description. I would have neither in the starting XV too.

Yes it is a very good description

Haskell is actually captain of Wasps, not a former captain, just like Hartley he's got over 60 caps for England, just like him he had a poor 2015 6 nations comparable to other players. He has had questionable discipline just like Hartley.

Haskell is a known quantity for better or worse just like Hartley. Both are a very similar age.

Here I disagree. Even despite the lineout issues in the 2015 6n Hartley has been consistently good for England through the years. Haskell has not!

The case of Haskell vs Clifford and Ksevic is quite similar.

No its completely different.
Haskell has been tried and tried...and never delivered, bar the odd game. The other two have not been tried, and are inexperienced..but are the future. Better to work with them than a guy who has never produced when it mattered...

Nothing is set in stone....except for Hartley...

I don't believe he is. Maybe a few games this 6n but long term no. Even a few of the latter 6n games may see George start.

Does this mean that Hartley is going to aim to play the whole match (rare for hookers and this WILL stop George getting a chance) or that Brown the vice captain will be making decisions in the last 20, bearing in mind that at Quins we seem to breed our captains to go for risky kicks at touch rather than goal at the end (see Robshaw, see Care in the Autumn)?

I don't think it is CJ.

I think he will play games, and share duties with George. George may even start v Italy etc.
Hartley may be the squad Captain...doesn't mean he'll play every minute of the tournament.

Plus when you have Kvesic, Clifford, and the big One Itoje...there are Captains comig through. And Robshaw may even take over if Hartley is replaced on the pitch by George.

Everyones getting their knickers in a twist...and I really don't get why. Its short term...sensible and yet quite flexible.

Are you still whinging about Jamie George?!?! Is he this weeks Itoje?

I'd love to see you champion somebody(insesantly) who doesn't play for Saracens.

Joseph or Daly? Daly for me is showing the all round game and is probably the most in form player in the prem for me. Joseph is the guy who always looks a threat when playing from England, top scorer in the last 6Ns at least for England (?) but WC hampered by injury. Surely that's one of the biggest decisions?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Are you still whinging about Jamie George?!?! Is he this weeks Itoje?

I'd love to see you champion somebody(insesantly) who doesn't play for Saracens.

That would require watching rugby matches with both eyes open, unlikely I reckon

I'm just playing devil's advocate

I wonder if Dalys kicking ability will nudge him ahead. He is a good runner, but he can drop goals etc which keeps the points board ticking over.

MInd I still think Joseph is a good player.