Ulster 2015/2016 Part 2

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Ah You is a good signing he is a replacement for BRoss not Herbst
Same with Treadwell he is a replacement for Stevenson not de Merwe

Both of those are marked improvements

If McCloskey doesn't start then he wont be in the squad. Realistically he can only cover 12. With Henshaw, Payne and Earls in the team there's cover for the centre but weak on the wings. If fit I think Fitz would be nailed on No. 23 but I would guess Zebo will get it now.

Geoff - Referring to your posts on 30/1...
All sounds logical on the player ins & outs including that IF 2 are coming from Leinster, that Ulster may be losing someone in exchange.
Is an exchange inevitable though...I mean, did anyone come the other way in the Botha & Boss deals?

Got to say who ever comes in when tight lipped Bryn announces...... I'd be really disappointed if Payne was lost from Ulster. Maybe someone wants a Leinster Henshaw/Payne midfield next year?

As for Pienaar. Think we should be doing all we can to manipulate the negotiations to retain his services.

Would Ludik to Munster/Leinster be beyond the realms of possibility? Taking in a Project player for one year and adding to their backs would make some sense especially as Leinster are losing Teo'o, their current project, and Madigan

Isnt Kirchner out of contract in the summer too?

RF09 wrote:Geoff - Referring to your posts on 30/1...
All sounds logical on the player ins & outs including that IF 2 are coming from Leinster, that Ulster may be losing someone in exchange.
Is an exchange inevitable though...I mean, did anyone come the other way in the Botha & Boss deals?

Got to say who ever comes in when tight lipped Bryn announces...... I'd be really disappointed if Payne was lost from Ulster. Maybe someone wants a Leinster Henshaw/Payne midfield next year?

As for Pienaar. Think we should be doing all we can to manipulate the negotiations to retain his services.

You are right it is not inevitable
However I just cant see us retaining Payne, signing Piatau and retaining Ludik - surely one of those has to give and its not Piatau.
As to Pienaer we will only be allowed to give him a 1 year contract - hopefully he will take it

Personally I would do whatever it takes to get James Hart from Grenoble

geoff999rugby wrote:
Personally I would do whatever it takes to get James Hart from Grenoble

I read last week that Racing had him as a candidate to replace Mike Phillips

In the few times I've seem him for Grenoble, Hart has never struck me as being any better than most of the other Irish scrumhalfs of his generation.

I'm convinced that players who have played in other positions in the team particularly 10 make far better 9s. This switch seems to be a particular anathema in Ireland where the scrum half is all about quick service rather than decision making.

He may not be a world beater but if the IRFU say no NIQ player to replace Pienaer and Pienaer decides to go home in 2017 who starts the 2017-18 season for us !

The merits of the NIQ restrictions is clear. Its of course a fine balance to protect the development of the international game with such a smaller player pool.
It does seem like there is some flexibility though and there has to be to care for the performance at provincial level.
As you say, perhaps the amount of youth in other areas serves as a good bargaining tool.
Pienaar has shown undeniable loyalty, is a crowd puller and I have lost count how many games he has influenced! The only foreign scrum half on the island..?
More than 1 year doesn't seem unreasonable to me..

It may not be unreasonable but it would be a first.

It is a rule set in stone NIQ players over 30 can only be offered 1 year.
Which is why we got him an extension when he was 29

Pienaar will be 33 by the end of the contract and he's played a lot of games over the last few years and clocked up a lot of miles playing for Ulster and SA, he may not be up to another year but he also needs to be managed in the hope of getting more out of him

Pienaar is playing some of the best rugby of his career - no reason he couldn't play into his late 30's.

The blanket rule is a bit silly. 30 is pretty young in some positions.

geoff999rugby wrote:It may not be unreasonable but it would be a first.

It is a rule set in stone NIQ players over 30 can only be offered 1 year.
Which is why we got him an extension when he was 29

Being inflexible is just stupid, but unsurprising with the IRFU. Watched some of Against the Head last night, until it got boring, and Jackman made a good point; the French clubs nail down everyone they want to retain before Christmas and then after Christmas is about recruitment. The IRFU and the provinces only begin talking contracts in January/February. Then they act surprised when big offers come in for players we're negotiating with and we end up getting into bidding wars and paying over the odds.

Exceptional players deserve to be made exceptions for, because if you're unwilling to make those exceptions you end up cutting off your nose to spite your face. How much in season ticket sales, merchandising, prize money would retaining Pienaar after 2017 be worth? You'd have to say more than letting him go to be replaced by the likes of Dave Shanahan.

Notch, I did read a piece yesterday around Murray etc resigning that the IRFU used to get most of their business out of the way before Christmas but that things have changed in the last few years.

If the French teams wait until after Xmas then players won't be signing anything until they can assess all of their options

The message from the IRFU rules boils down to this - 'Time is limited... you will have to come up with a decent IQ scrum half eventually or suffer if you don't'.

The idea being that if we do manage to come up with a decent IQ scrum-half, that he would be in the mix internationally - or at least keep the pressure on the incumbents.

My questions are as follows:
Are Ulster Rugby looking at young scrum-halves and actively putting in more work with them than other positions?
Are we scouting more for scrum-halves than other positions?
If you put enough energy into young prospects, can you actually achieve a higher talent ceiling for them?

I guess this is what the IRFU are attempting to force the provinces to do. Not sure the rules intended us to look the world for scrum-halves with irish grannies... but it would provide the same end result.

But if the talent and ability is just not there, and UR can prove they've tried, and mentored, and coached and developed....
will we just have to play an average scrum-half and deal with it??

I notice some on here speaking highly of Shanahan... I've not seen very much of him to be honest... but let's be honest... he doesn't look like he is going to be a Champions Cup level scrum-half does he??

Interesting development for McKinley! He is now able to play with his goggles in Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland... So effectively could play all Pro12 games.

http://www.the42.ie/ian-mckinley-irfu-goggles-world-rugby-raleri-2579862-Feb2016/

You have to wonder if this has something to do with us getting a Leinster outhalf in the same summer as they are already losing Madigan...

I'd be delighted for McKinley if he were able to get back playing at Pro12 level.

With a limit to 1 NIQ in a specific position across the 4 provinces it means there are 3 other provinces who's No'1 (&2,&3) in a position are IQ thus providing the depth that the rule is designed to ensure.
Plus....in this SH example, Ulster also have a 2 & 3 learning from a class player. (granted less pitch time and that's probably the issue here)

All seems a logical/sensible enough so far...of course we don't want a football model, but provinces may have it difficult to compete in Europe i.e. if next shows a pattern to this year and in long run, that will affect the national team no matter how many IQ players we have in a position.
Thus class does need to be added from abroad. As Notch says there also the marketing aspects to consider, which again has its affect on player development / growth.

Its high effort & high risk searching 'the foreigner with granny' as some signings have shown, & doing so kind of prooves the point that there is nothing coming through.

All in all its a delicate balance and you can be chasing your tail arguing the merits of it. But I agree - exceptional players devoted players should be rewarded and we need them... at least some sense shown in the process.

clivemcl wrote:Interesting development for McKinley! He is now able to play with his goggles in Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland... So effectively could play all Pro12 games.

http://www.the42.ie/ian-mckinley-irfu-goggles-world-rugby-raleri-2579862-Feb2016/

You have to wonder if this has something to do with us getting a Leinster outhalf in the same summer as they are already losing Madigan...

I'd be delighted for McKinley if he were able to get back playing at Pro12 level.

He's a cause celebre, and a passionate lad who's to be applauded. But he's not actually good enough, is he? Didn't Zebre drop him? Is he good enough for Leinster?

Of course Ulster are looking at scrum halves and we have 2 in the Academy at the moment - as with all kids time will tell.

The reality is our Academy is starting to deliver but if you look at them a very high % of them are 'blow ins' - spotting local talent remains sub standard - remember both McCloskey and Gilroy were told they were not good enough by folks at Ulster.
Also we ditched a Prop called Taylor, which I still don't understanding, Bealham was am Ulster player we dropped and McCall lost development time with that nonsense playing him as a hooker.  

Shanahan is not a world beater but he will be a decent enough replacement for Marshall and has a pass Marshall can only dream of.
The reality is though I think if push comes to shove we would get a NIQ 9 rather than see us go downhill bot don't bet on it.
We are lucky the other 3 provinces have a decent IQ 9.

Look at Munster though the IRFU are being hard noosed with them about TH.
If I am right their TH's next year are Andress and Archer - best of luck with that !

In our favour are the number of backs we are producing and the number of young front 5 players we have - Warwick, McCall, Herring, Andrew, Herbst, Henderson, AOC, Treadwell with Simpson, Donnan and Thompson hopefully to join them. With only 1 NIQ front 5 player next year and potential non in 2016-17 we are more than pulling our weight with young talent 1 - 5 and 10 -15.
That may get us some brownie points with the IRFU and they may therefore allow us some leeway in the backrow and at scrum half.

clivemcl wrote:The message from the IRFU rules boils down to this - 'Time is limited... you will have to come up with a decent IQ scrum half eventually or suffer if you don't'.

"Not quite but we do have an expectation you make every effort to get players of the required standard"

clivemcl wrote:The idea being that if we do manage to come up with a decent IQ scrum-half, that he would be in the mix internationally - or at least keep the pressure on the incumbents.

Any players becoming a regular for a Province is a potential International when you only have 4 teams

clivemcl wrote:My questions are as follows:
Are Ulster Rugby looking at young scrum-halves and actively putting in more work with them than other positions?  

It is not an either or they look for players for all positions

clivemcl wrote:Are we scouting more for scrum-halves than other positions?

See above

clivemcl wrote:If you put enough energy into young prospects, can you actually achieve a higher talent ceiling for them?

I would hope that enough energy is put in for all prospects to help them succeed and realise their potential

clivemcl wrote:I guess this is what the IRFU are attempting to force the provinces to do. Not sure the rules intended us to look the world for scrum-halves with irish grannies... but it would provide the same end result.

the IRFU couldn't careless how they become qualified

clivemcl wrote:But if the talent and ability is just not there, and UR can prove they've tried, and mentored, and coached and developed....

given our historical track record - last 10 years - we can shout about very little with respect to finding players outside of the threes. Maybe, just maybe, that is starting to change.

clivemcl wrote:will we just have to play an average scrum-half and deal with it??

Possibly

clivemcl wrote:I notice some on here speaking highly of Shanahan... I've not seen very much of him to be honest... but let's be honest... he doesn't look like he is going to be a Champions Cup level scrum-half does he??  

It is too early to say what his ceiling will be

Victor Vito signed for La Rochelle, as was rumoured, so there's one big name off the market.

Lucky devil, La Rochelle is a beautiful city that is completely rugby mad.

I notice a lot of talk about scrum halves, is Pienaar on his way? What happened to the up and coming option that came off the bench against Tigers the other year, he looked promising.

Pienaar is not on his way until possibly a year and a half from now, and maybe not then. But its good to have a plan for an Irish player in every position when it's the IRFU making decisions on that basis.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lucky devil, La Rochelle is a beautiful city that is completely rugby mad.

I notice a lot of talk about scrum halves, is Pienaar on his way? What happened to the up and coming option that came off the bench against Tigers the other year, he looked promising.

Your're probably talking about Paul Marshall who will be 31 later this year - so hardly up and coming! He's very similar to Danny Care, when he's good he can be very good and has a couple MOTM performances to his name this year, but sometimes he gets ahead of himself his game goes to pot. Lots of Ulster fans can't see any positives in his game but he is better than plenty out there.

Pocock' it is then!

Seriously though... Its either Pocock, or its somebody who is not a household name. VDM, Muller and Payne didn't have huge international accolades yet are/were key players for us.

But names like Liam Gill just don't seem to match up with the phrases coming from UR. But I guess the problem is that 'big' and 'exciting' can mean different things to different people...

Guy on the other forum who knows stuff says announcement tomorrow. Not necessarily the big one though.

Well... if this one is confirmed its a pretty handy signing!

"Ryan Kankowski: Ulster sign South African back row"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35480849

Hadn't we almost signed him a few season back?

Anyway - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixy3jE0RHeE

Think it's a really good signing Pete.

Speculation

In the public domain we have all of the following but none confirmed:

Ryan Kankowski signs
Ludik sign as extension
Marsh signs
Doyle signs  -where did this come from can someone remind me.

What I can confirm is Bryn has completed all of his contract negotiations.
All ins and Outs have been decided.

Speculation continues re another big signing - now that has to be a IQ player and the tantalizing possiblility
of Marshall or Payne swapping for a Leinster backrow continues. If true I'd want someone better than Ryan.
To be frank that is my conjecture but we remain totally overloaded at 15 and centre and any signing not listed above
has to be IQ. I may well be putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5.

On the Kankowski signing we offer to Vito but could not match French money - he was our second choice (at least that is what I have been told)

Ludik resigning plus the possibility of a Leinster/IQ backrow would suggest we had to give something up in return, if not then Bryn needs a payrise

Not wishing to darken the mood but IRFU may well have said we have got you
Ah You
Marsh
Ryan

We have allowed you to have 4 NIQ and 2 Projects

For that you can give up Payne or Marshall - hard to argue to be honest

Kankowski

What about him ?

I would think that players who are leaving will have already been announced- PR logic dictates you announce departures THEN arrivals so as to finish on a positive note heading into the new season.

Where this logic doesn't apply is too

a) centrally contracted players
b) A swap deal

I would take a swap deal to strengthen the pack. If we were to add one or two players to the back row I think thats our strongest pack we've had nearly ever in terms of depth. Also would love to get more cover at 10 in. If Ludik is staying and Piutau is coming, Payne will stay at centre. Ludik and Nelson can also play centre at a pinch so no problem with depth there or at fullback.

I think Luke Marshall might leave, and if he leaves to be first choice at another province I'll be happy for him and think it is the best thing for Irish Rugby. Olding, McCloskey, Cave and Payne with a number of younger players behind them like Arnold or even Stockdale is an excellent amount of depth. I'd take Marshall for Ryan and Marsh- would hope for Ruddock and Marsh, or Conan and Marsh, but I'd still take it.

Here's what Bryn has to say about us re-signing Louis Ludik

Bryn Cunningham wrote:Operations Director, Bryn Cunningham, said the deal represented a major boost for the Province:

"Re-signing Louis Ludik is a fantastic outcome for Ulster Rugby as he provides so much to the Province both on and off the field. As Louis becomes Irish-qualified in the summer of 2017, I want to thank the IRFU and David Nucifora for understanding the very clear rationale for allowing us to retain his services.

"Louis has been one of the most consistent performers for Ulster over the past 18 months. His attitude and commitment have been exemplary, becoming an excellent role model for the young backs currently coming through our pathway.

"He has been excellent as the last line of defence and he repeatedly forces himself over the gainline in attack. When you add the versatility he brings, this will give us plenty of exciting options next season.

"Pete Nelson is now a very viable option at outhalf as well and we are starting to build a backline squad of hugely talented individuals who can be maneuvered around positions to enable us to cope better with injuries, international call-ups and player management."

Agreed Notch.

My point being I do hope people do not post on here and say swapping Payne or Marshall for Ryan is an unfair swap.

They need to look at the big picture we would have gotten 3 players for 1 and been given a dispensation allowing us 6 NIQ players next year. That is unheard of in the modern era.

So Ludik is official. The comment on Nelson is interesting.
I'd be happy with Nelson and Marsh going head to head as Paddys backup with Olding also available.

If Marsh does arrive there is absolutely no point retaining Humphreys or Windsor.
To which, as I mentioned early, McPhillips is the most impressive Academy fly halfs since Paddy.
To go into next year which a bunch of young up and coming 10's behind Paddy would be a big statement

geoff999rugby wrote:What about him ?

Sorry - rest of post got lost. Bloody phone.

Kankowski's a good signing, if not the Pocock-level some were expecting. Happy with that.

All this chat about "swaps" and trades is making me a bit nervous. But I'm not sure I buy it. It's got to come down to the players, surely? Why, on a personal level, would Marshall go to Leinster? He has a good chance to fight his way into being a starter at Ulster (I'd certainly consider him a starter currently). The whole squad seems reinvigorated and given new purpose by the arrival of Kiss. Not to be indelicate, but I wouldn't currently leave Ulster to go to Leinster because I thought there'd be a better chance of silverware.

I can understand, leaving aside all this talk of swaps driven by the IRFU, on a professional, individual level, why Dominic Ryan or Conan would come to Ulster.

It makes sense if Payne, on a central contract, is going where the IRFU are suggesting.

Agreed the player has to agree and without that the deal is of.
However players can be offered poor deals for staying - look at the man sausage up with Moore.
Trying to get him to move to Munster resulted in him leaving.

On the Marshall thing the only thing I would say is at Ulster it is 2 from
McCloskey, Cave, Payne, Olding and Marshall - that is tough completion.

At Leinster Madigan is leaving, Reid is from the Humphreys school of tacking - Marshall would be a shoo in foe 12 and would play alongside Ringrose

geoff999rugby wrote:Agreed the player has to agree and without that the deal is of.
However players can be offered poor deals for staying - look at the man sausage up with Moore.
Trying to get him to move to Munster resulted in him leaving.

On the Marshall thing the only thing I would say is at Ulster it is 2 from
McCloskey, Cave, Payne, Olding and Marshall - that is tough completion.

At Leinster Madigan is leaving, Reid is from the Humphreys school of tacking - Marshall would be a shoo in foe 12 and would play alongside Ringrose

To be honest, i found it hard to keep reading past "man sausage".

In fact, rather than "hard", let's say i found it "difficult". Just so there's no confusion.

But I take your general point. I've said it before, I'm shocked to find myself saying this, but we shouldn't have re-signed Cave. He should be mentoring Ringrose next season.

I will say this... Bryn is doing a pretty impressive job so far.

I keep seeing people saying that Ulster have enough centres but if Cave had left, we would probably be looking at a period now of having Olding plus Windsor/Arnold/Stockdale in the centre if we're lucky, while its great to get young players into the team do we really want to be doing it with iHumph at 10?

It's not about always having first-class options available in the centre all the time, though. From the IRFU point of view, it's about having someone like Marshall or Olding sat on their derrières for for big high-pressure, European matches instead of getting out and delivering. We do have a ridiculous amount of talent available at centre compared to any other province.

T'other forum are in revolt now, the were expecting a much bigger name and aren't best pleased. They are even beginning to turn on the guy in the know

Don I don't dispute the amount of talent we have but rarely, if ever, are they all available at one time that's the argument I'd make, Payne, Olding and Cave are just back from injury. At least two from Olding, Payne, McCloskey and Marshall will probably be away regularly on international duty going forward and you can usually factor in at least an injury at that time too.

KOTH on the other forum saying Kankowski is actually going to the Waratahs, not Ulster.

Oooof - it ain't Kankowski.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35480849

KOTH has been spared indeed it seems, there's no Kankowski in Ulster !!!!

Oooo this is getting exciting

What the heck is going on here???

I'm late to the party, and seeing people say we signed Kankowski, then the headline says, 'Ulster set to sign South African forward',

then the content says

'But is has since emerged the 20-cap Springbok will not be joining the club.'


Good grief!

They will just have to tell us who it is today to end the speculative reports