Ulster 2015/2016 Part 2

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Here's my gut...

BBC got a reliable source saying it was a SA backrower, and then they looked into a few other bits of info, and came up with the wrong name. Somebody lifted the phone and said... "here Kankowski is off to Warratahs... you will look stupid", and so they withdrew it.

My hunch is that the south african backrow part is actually correct, as it has remained in the headline.

But who????

Despite the praise on here, I'd be hoping the eventual name is better than Kankowski who, in my opinion, would not be an improvement on this season's Nick Williams.

King of the Hill saying BBC have got it wrong suggest it isn't.
He one of two on the other forum who has some inside knowledge (Fireball is the other) and he must be pretty certain to say that.
Rarely is he so definite - looks like BBC putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

geoff999rugby wrote:King of the Hill saying BBC have got it wrong suggest it isn't.
He one of two on the other forum who has some inside knowledge (Fireball is the other) and he must be pretty certain to say that.
Rarely is he so definite - looks like BBC putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

I always wondered if you were KOTH Geoff.
At least I've always referred to KOTH as T'other forum's version of Geoff, the Geoff 1.11 so to speak

BBC backtracking faster than an Italian tank.

They have got this wrong pure and simple

Alternatively they have got it right and Ulster have wrapped them over the knuckles for letting the cat out of the bag

KOTH gave the impression, last night, that a big signing would be named today. Maybe BBC have been informed that a big signing would be named today, and jumped the gun.

Really pleased for Ludik. Certainly deserves the extension to his contract.

If we are to lose a player to Leinster, or one of the other Provinces, I really hope it's not Marshall. I believe our best centre pairing has been Marshall and McCloskey, and to break that up would be nuts.

Jean Deysel I guess would be a pretty like for like Nick Williams replacement. Still not a huge name though. But would work if Ulster wanted to keep the same kind of explosive powerful 8 who can offload.

Skarks have just re-signed Keegan Daniels.

Marcel Coetzee of course - that would be a dream signing!

I'm working on the basis the journalist may have got correct club but wrong name.

Marcel Coetzee would do very well.
COME ON ULSTER RUGBY, JUST GIVE US THE NAME!

Strange indeed. We will have to wait and see what they have up their sleeve..But Bryn seems very astute and knows what he wants.

On paper, seems we have serious depth in the backs being built up. However this season with the same rosta (injuries and Ireland call ups) it hasn't exactly been proven this season that we have an abundance. So personally not convinced we have room to loose one & fight on 2 fronts..

I was also confused about the NIQ places.. so potentially 4 NIQ & 2 Projects...thats perhaps the flexibility from the IRFU that I was referring to..at what cost we shall see..perhaps it might be a Marshall/Ringrose/Henshaw/Payne midfield at Leinster..

The funny thing is...
This news story is now everywhere, and other news outlets have not realised that the BBC have retracted it!

Typical lazy journo's, although it does fill column inches, I suppose.

Coetzee is one I have my fingers crossed for.

Our SID next year will be a lot better than year in the front 5 and at 10 and our backrow will be better than this year, assuming the 2 new signings are true.

We are making significant strides in the right direction and we have our best coach in charge from the start of the season.

If we have to sacrifice a centre to get in that position so be it - overall it is worth it. We will still have 4 quality centres and Arnold as backup

Things are looking up

Pete330v2 wrote:T'other forum are in revolt now, the were expecting a much bigger name and aren't best pleased. They are even beginning to turn on the guy in the know

How pathetic is that? Munster and Leinster are fighting tooth and nail just to retain players and Ulster fans are stamping their feet because we're not recruiting big enough names?

The fact we're in a recruiting phase while all the other provinces are just in a retaining phase is a cause for massive celebration as far as I can see. We're doing way better off the field than everyone else.

Most Ulster fans don't know they're born. Bet the same ones outraged we were supposedly replacing Nick Williams with Kankowski are the same ones who were furious when we replaced Wannenburg with Williams

Part of the reason is we are financially in the best position

"The fact we're in a recruiting phase while all the other provinces are just in a retaining phase is a cause for massive celebration as far as I can see"

Very true Notch, we're in a very good place right now.
I remember the same voices on that forum bemoaning the signing of big Nick, they are the same voices bemoaning Kankowski's signing and now non-signing. They are the same voices that seem to despise everything Jared Payne does and would get rid of him in second.

clivemcl wrote:Jean Deysel I guess would be a pretty like for like Nick Williams replacement. Still not a huge name though. But would work if Ulster wanted to keep the same kind of explosive powerful 8 who can offload.

Deysels more of a liability than Williams was last season, been suspended a few times for stamping and cheap shots on opponents

Coetzee is contracted for anothersuper rugby campaign after the upcoming one though as far as I can seen.

Kankowski, I would have been fine with, except that UR have used words like 'big' and 'excited'. If they announced Kankowski having hinted at nothing, it would have been an acceptable signing. But the words from Bryn and Kiss are leading the fans to hope for better.

KOTH said there would be an announcement today though... and there was one!

Ludik has been re-signed. (which I'm happy with!)

But the point is... that may be the news stories complete for the time being. So we should all get back to doing what we should be doing (or is that just me??)

As for the player swap thing... I really do feel that the best player to go to Leinster to mentor the young lads would be Cave. And if Cave agrees, and he knows his gametime will be limited at Ulster... he might allow for an early termination of his Ulster contract.

I'd be quite keen to keep Marshall AND McCloskey, simply because of Olding's injury history, and the high risk of it re-occurring.

Cave is going nowhere

clivemcl wrote:Kankowski, I would have been fine with, except that UR have used words like 'big' and 'excited'. If they announced Kankowski having hinted at nothing, it would have been an acceptable signing. But the words from Bryn and Kiss are leading the fans to hope for better.

As far as I can tell Kiss said that the additions to the squad were exciting in the context of where the team as a whole will be next year, and then the BBC and other media took that out of context and ran with stories about exciting signings and such. I think maybe some fans are leading themselves to hope for BIG NAMES when actually what's been said would be quite innocuous if it wasn't repeated again and again out of context.

I just can't see wee Luke and wee Paddy lining up against each other. But I guess it would come down to career, and determination to challenge for the Ireland shirt. Payne you would understand maybe going because he wouldn't have the same Ulster link. But he's simply far too good to let away.

Right, I'm closing the browser. Somebody fire up the bat signal if anything happens!

Good point Notch - the impression that Ulster will be signing one of the best backrowers in the World has not come from the province but from the spin put on Bryn and Les statements by the BBC and we all know how reliable the BBC is

To clarify Luke Marshall does not want to go - if Ulster have offered him a half decent contract he will have taken it.
He will only leave if IFRU have forced Ulster to release him

Pete330v2 wrote:"The fact we're in a recruiting phase while all the other provinces are just in a retaining phase is a cause for massive celebration as far as I can see"

Very true Notch, we're in a very good place right now.
I remember the same voices on that forum bemoaning the signing of big Nick, they are the same voices bemoaning Kankowski's signing and now non-signing. They are the same voices that seem to despise everything Jared Payne does and would get rid of him in second.

This sums up my opinion of the "other" forum perfectly. A clique of long time users which has long since descended into tribal nonsense and verbal bullying due to dominant personalities left unchecked because of poor moderation. Their vitriol toward Payne in particular makes me sick.

Much prefer this place for higher quality discussion, albeit at the expensive of quantity of content.

On Coeztee the below suggests that he's dual contracted to both the Sharks and the Honda Heat until 2017. I think it's fairly unlikely we'll be buying him out of both contracts.

http://fans.myplayers.co.za/marcell-coetzee-heads-to-japan

Edit - to 2017*

clivemcl wrote:
Ludik has been re-signed. (which I'm happy with!)

Does that mean Piatau is staying at Wasps? - as reported somewhere else Ulster would be over our NIE quota unless Herbst is offski.

Next year we would have 6 NIEs:-

Herbst
Ludik
VDM
Piatau
Pienaar
Backrower X

4 NIQs and two projects. One more project than was previously stated would be allowed, but if you read Bryn's statement in the Ludik press release, it seems like Nucifora gave him a bye ball.

Kankowski is a big name signing - it's got nine letters in it

If Luke Marshall goes I'd be disappointed but also wish him well. Paddy Wallace had the chance to go to Leinster as a 10, and if he had his career might have been totally different, as he never really got the Test opportunities or recognition until far later in his career.

I much prefer Marshall to Cave, but the other side of that coin is that Luke is still only one or two knocks away from a serious career ending concussion, and Cave has been fairly robust. Further, Cave isn't good enough for Test rugby so will be available for Ulster when Marshall would not.

I also think Dr Bowe will migrate to 13 sooner or later so that's another in the mix in midfield.

In relation to Ludik I have mixed feeligns. He has been an exemplary player for Ulster showing commitment, availability and is exactly the kind of squad player who is great to have as a role model and utility cover. My misgivings surround having him as a 'project' player. I am uncomfortable with the concept at the best of times, but let's face it, he is never going to play for Ireland. At 29 now he is effectively blocking a younger IQ player and will do so for the rest of his career at Ulster.

On the Marshall concussion issue he has only 1 in the last two years.
Now that is one too many but it was over a year ago and I would say he is in a lot better shape than some e.g. Sexton and Strauss at Leinster in this regard.
Cave is often written off but keeps bouncing back - best back against Treviso for example.

Ludik is a concession from IRFU - a one off special project.
The reason is Ireland are struggling at 15.
If Payne and Henshaw stay as centres who else do Ireland have to cover Kearney?
I predict he will play International rugby for Ireland.
Who is he blocking ? - it seems clear Ulster have decided to develop Nelson as a 10.
There are no other potential IQ 15's in the full squad and only Busby in the Academy (who Ulster describe as a centre)

Guy in the know on other forum just said

"Wonder if Scholes and Arnold will stay?".

Historically this is how he frames the fact he heard something.

It would sort of explain our signing of Ludik. Perhaps we tried to keep Scholes or Arnold but failed to match what they were offered elsewhere.

clivemcl wrote:Guy in the know on other forum just said

"Wonder if Scholes and Arnold will stay?".

Historically this is how he frames the fact he heard something.

It would sort of explain our signing of Ludik. Perhaps we tried to keep Scholes or Arnold but failed to match what they were offered elsewhere.

I saw that Clive, he loves to steer the conversation does KOTH

Arnold going would make sense if all 5 of our top flight centres stay
Scholes makes no sense and he is contracted for next year - he is just making mischief on that count.
I

Scholes has been one of the players of the season.

Agree, Scholes has been a revelation.

Seems only reason Scholes would leave now is if he's unhappy at wing- he'll play plenty if selection is based on merit not reputation. He's been playing better than Gilroy.

I do remember him mentioning in an interview that he wanted to play fullback and had discussed it with Les- thats not going to be an easy ambition to realise at Ulster with Ludik here and Piutau coming in. But the Dr. Bowe wanted the same thing when he was coming through and eventually realised he was best used on the wing. I think it's not uncommon for wingers to want to move to fullback where they will get more touches of the ball and the chance to counter-attack. The wing can be a frustrating place if the men inside you aren't firing.

If Kankowski get's wrongly reported and then it ends up being someone better.... that to me is much preferable to BBC wrongly reporting we signed Pocock, and then the eventual signing being Kankowski. That would be sickening.

I'd say we will get an announcement once per week.

Doyle, Ulster re-signings, Leinster signings (and player swap perhaps), and then culminating in the big name announcement.

That would fit with Kiss's 4/5 week estimate.

I like to return to one "signing"

Who said Doyle was returning???

Not saying he isn't but I've heard nothing and it doesn't make sense for such, without any disrespect, for a low key signing to be kept under wraps

After all the talk of McPhillips, its kind of a shame the Ireland U20s game is clashing with Ulster vs. Dragons. I'd like to see him in action as it seems many rate him highly and he's starting at 10 for the U20s.

geoff999rugby wrote:I like to return to one "signing"

Who said Doyle was returning???

Not saying he isn't but I've heard nothing and it doesn't make sense for such, without any disrespect, for a low key signing to be kept under wraps

It was KOTH on t'other forum Geoff. Said he had been signed.

Pete thanks - that is good enough for me.

The only disappointment is I suspect Faloon is not in good shape.

Just checked Geoff... and surprisingly it was KOTH who said it. It was shortly after somebody said they saw Doyle on a night out with Tuohy in Belfast.

I suspect now he was taking the urine at the fact the guy thought the info was worth posting.

I'm finding it harder and harder to decipher what statements are intended to be humourous on that warped forum...

In saying that, plenty of people took at at face value, and he didn't set them straight.

On an unrelated point, I notice that both Farrell and Allen played in the recent Grenoble vs Edinburgh game. Does anyone know how they're doing?

Farrell in particular seems to be getting a reasonable amount of game time if the Challenge Cup is anything to go by. A starter in all their away games.

clivemcl wrote:Just checked Geoff... and surprisingly it was KOTH who said it. It was shortly after somebody said they saw Doyle on a night out with Tuohy in Belfast.

I suspect now he was taking the urine at the fact the guy thought the info was worth posting.

I'm finding it harder and harder to decipher what statements are intended to be humourous on that warped forum...

In saying that, plenty of people took at at face value, and he didn't set them straight.

Clive, relax, take it easy- I can almost guarantee you'll know by the time next season kicks off. And you won't have to put up with those eejits to do it!

geoff999rugby wrote:On the Marshall concussion issue he has only 1 in the last two years.
Now that is one too many but it was over a year ago and I would say he is in a lot better shape than some e.g. Sexton and Strauss at Leinster in this regard.
Cave is often written off but keeps bouncing back - best back against Treviso for example.

Ludik is a concession from IRFU - a one off special project.
The reason is Ireland are struggling at 15.
If Payne and Henshaw stay as centres who else do Ireland have to cover Kearney?
I predict he will play International rugby for Ireland.
Who is he blocking ? - it seems clear Ulster have decided to develop Nelson as a 10.
There are no other potential IQ 15's in the full squad and only Busby in the Academy (who Ulster describe as a centre)

Yes I agree Cave was very good against Treviso - forcing the intercept for Scholes try was exactly the sort of game changing impact I expect from someone like him. I don't want him to leave Ulster either, but I think Marshall has more potential to be a Test player than him that's all.

The discussion on Scholes is exactly the possible blockage that Ludik might cause. Ireland need 15s and a succession of them. Scholes played his schools rugby at 15, as indeed Bowe did but the difference between him and Bowe is that he is far better with the boot (he was the CCB place kicker as well). Right now Ludik is more reliable than Scholes and because of his experience will play ahead of him. With the arrival of Piutau next season and Ludik still at Ulster, and Payne as another option, Scholes' opportunities will be limited further.

As mentioned above I like Louis as a player but think he is akin to Bryn Cunningham himself - solid, reliable, whole-hearted, but his age is now against him and he is shy of the X factor. If Kearney were to be injured there is no doubt that Joe would move Payne to 15 (and he may still do so even if he's not). Honest Dave has played a fair bit at 15 too so being already part of the set-up (and from Leinster), I'd say he would be ahead of Lou. Then there's Zebo who has Test experience there and done well so couldn't be dismissed. Tiernan O'Halloran has looked none too shabby either and if you're going to bring in a debutant why not build some depth that is going to be around for a while?

At Ulster Nelson is too good a player to be a bench 10. He has shown he is good enough to play 15 without it precluding him as a backup flyhalf, because (like Olding) he plays with his head up. Stockdale too has plenty of experience at 15 and the big boot that is a prerequisite. Busby is an honest UBL fullback, played his u20 rugby there, and doesn't have the size to be a Centre so like a lot of the descriptions on the UR website - to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Fair enough. I see things differently but you make some valid points.

I would say a few things though.
If Ludik, Piatau and Payne are with us next year Payne will not play 15 at all.
It would be clear he is purely seen as a 15 by IRFU and that they want us to play him there.
As a consequence Kearney poor form/injury will put Ludik in the frame for Ireland.
I would prefer him to the others you mention because of Zebo - positioning, Kearney - pace, O'Halloran - tackling.
Don't get me wrong I don't see him as a regular but I do believe the IRFU feel they lack depth at 15, clearly don't want to move Payne and that is why we have been allowed him as an extra Project.

Scholes, in the short term is only seen as a winger by Ulster - in the top 4 now and Trimble and Bowe are the wrong side of 30.
Nelson will get plenty of game time as backup 10 (alongside Marsh(if he comes)) and backup 15 (alongside Ludik)
His ability to play 10,11,14,15 will make him a natural for the bench.

I don't think it would be the worst thing if Scholes took a contract elsewhere and then returned when Bowe and Trimble are winding down their careers.

Other forum saying he's been offered double what Ulster offer. And the club mentioned is Saracens.

When good players go they tend not to come back (Bowe is the exception).

Wilson did return but his best years were at Saints.
Scholes leaving would be bad news - have to say though getting slightly nervous on this one.

An English club is definitely trying to turn his head

I half wonder if the battle for Scholes has already been fought and lost, and that is what resulted in pleading for special project status for Ludik. Some (perhaps rightly) suggest Ludik will block young IQ game time... but what if he was retained because Scholes is already set to leave??

You have a point Geoff, and ideally we would keep him. But some seem to suggest that he has leap frogged Gilroy. I disagree, and still feel Gilroy has yet to reach his ceiling. In fact, I'd say it is more plausible that both Scholes and Gilroy have leapfrogged Bowe. But who knows... when he comes back from injury he may have a new lease of life.

If neither of Scholes or Arnold leave we almost have 3 backlines worth of players.

9. Pienaar
10. Jackson
11. Gilroy
12. McCloskey
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Piutau

9. Marshall
10. Nelson
11. Scholes
12. Olding
13. Cave
14. Bowe
15. Ludik

9. Shanahan
10. Marsh
11. Stockdale
12. Arnold
13. Marshall
14. ?
15. ?

Exciting times!

I just don't want to see a Tommy Seymour situation develop with Scholes- he could be top class somewhere else while we wonder about what might have been. I felt he was unlucky not to get picked for Saracens away.

It's pretty amazing seeing the homegrown backs we have- no room for players like Farrell, Whitten or Seymour who would massively improve other provinces, and are now content overseas and probably won't be tempted back. I'm keen not to add Scholes to that list. If one of the Ulster centres decides to leave the IRFU must make every effort to ensure he goes to another province. Likewise if Scholes decides the wait at Ulster for first team action is too long, other provinces should come into the reckoning- that will be harder as both Leinster and Munster have plenty of young, talented back three players themselves.

Few observations

Tommy Seymour was different in that he was qualified for another country - Scholes isn't.
Also in 2015 Scholes signed a full professional contract. Now to my knowledge other than over 30 NIQ players 99% of all contract are 2 years or more. I would be very very surprised if this was not the case with Scholes - if so he is under contract to Ulster next year.
Further more Les Kiss has stated we are not losing anyone we don't want to - we don't want to lose Scholes.

Arnold is different and providing we don't lose Marshall or Payne will be seen as surplus to requirements.
Also remember he is a 'blow in' and is as much, if not more, English than Irish and as such a move to England for him would be no big deal.

I still don't really know what position Sam Arnold is challenging for or what his preferred position is. He has played at 12 for the U20s and at 13 or winger for Ulster. If he is seen primarily as a 12 then he will struggle to get any game time. At 13 or on the wing he may get more opportunities and would be a useful squad member.

I know little about the guy but it would seem that he is rated highly as a prospect. I may be wrong but I do recall Geoff previously suggesting that Ulster are more keen to keep hold of Arnold than Luke Marshall. Geoff I apologise if that is incorrect.

I get that the BelTel had to say something to correct themselves, and that they need to beef out an article for that purpose. But it is ridiculous to see news stories based on little more than the content of a few speculations on online forums. Quite embarassing.

They do however claim that the south african who has just finished a stint in Japan part is correct.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/kankowski-rumours-cause-confusion-as-ludik-stays-on-34422080.html

That said... we would be buying Coetzee out of his contract. Would we really do that? The fact Sharks re-signed Daniels does add a little support to the plausibility. But still... far too little to be getting hopeful over.

Any other SA backrowers just finished in Japan?