Who should never have had 3 caps or more

First topic message reminder :

As a companion piece,and also more entertaining, what players never warranted one cap but kept getting selected.
3 or more caps please

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Who could forget Brian Carney as well - the league player with 4 Ireland caps and who was taken to a World Cup ahead of Tommy Bowe.

Are you talking about the Winger that played for the Newcastle Knights and played Rugby league for Ireland? because I cant ever recall him playing Rugby union for Ireland.  He was a bit of a character though.

The very same, was a fine league winger too

BamBam wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Who could forget Brian Carney as well - the league player with 4 Ireland caps and who was taken to a World Cup ahead of Tommy Bowe.

Are you talking about the Winger that played for the Newcastle Knights and played Rugby league for Ireland? because I cant ever recall him playing Rugby union for Ireland.  He was a bit of a character though.

The very same, was a fine league winger too

When he was at the knights he became good mates with Matty Johns, and Matty got him a few stints of Channel nines Footy show, very funny.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Who could forget Brian Carney as well - the league player with 4 Ireland caps and who was taken to a World Cup ahead of Tommy Bowe.

Are you talking about the Winger that played for the Newcastle Knights and played Rugby league for Ireland? because I cant ever recall him playing Rugby union for Ireland.  He was a bit of a character though.

I'm not surprised you don't remember, he didn't exactly make a big impression on anybody! Not his fault of course. Whoever had the bright idea of bringing him in and fast tracking him into the national team without paying his dues in Union is to blame.

I'm a big believer in having players start from quite a low level in Union and learning their craft the hard way. Even Sonny Bill Williams spent a season in the French second division. Sticking most guys straight into test rugby out of league is setting them up to fail. Must be especially hard to get the respect of your teammates if you're getting picked ahead of the guy they've been playing with since they were in the U20s or whatever and you have all of five union games behind you.

Rowan Shepard
Brendon Laney - so fat we all thought he was a new prop

Matthew Robinson, Wales and Swansea wing. 4 caps. Just never looked comfortable at International level to me.

And in a similar vein, as much as it pains me to say it as I was a huge fan of his as a club player, Aled Brew. He just looked like a rabbit in a headlights at international level, always trying to do the things he did at club level but seemed to try too hard and would end up knocking on, falling over or generally making a mess of it. Shame.

France had a long tradition of giving cheap caps during the June tours when all the top dogs were busy with the T14 semi finals.
There is probably at least 20 players with a cap or two in the last 10 years. Recently it's still feel strange that someone like Brice Mach got up to 4 in 2014 despite being the less accurate French hooker I can think of.

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales - Hal Luscombe somehow he managed to bag himself a grandslam winners medal.

England - Henry Paul (did he get 3 caps?) or Erinle

Erinle only got 2 caps. For much of his time at Wasps pundits pushed him as the next big thing, but he was never selected and tailed off. Then an injury crisis coincided with a purple patch of form and boom 2 caps.

fa0019 wrote:Ireland

Richard Wallace

Harsh!
We weren't exactly flush with talent in that era and Wallace on one wing and Simon Geoghan on the other was pretty good for us back then.
Toured with Lions too.
3 brothers - a wing, a prop and a flanker! work that out.

Now Jim Staples on the other hand!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Any All Blacks on this list?

For England how about Tim Payne? And he's a Lion.

For the All Blacks I do think Stephen Donald is a very limited player. Chris Rattue was hardly a stellar All Black either, and I never really understood what Caleb Ralph did.

Of course the reason there are so few duff All Blacks is because they pack off some of their worst players to the NH!!

That would be Stephen "kicked the winning points in the RWC Final" Donald?

If that's the worst All Black ever, what hope is there for the rest of us?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:England

Got to be Tom Youngs and Jamie Noon

Probably not quite good enough for international, but he got his caps because he was always a very good, strong premiership centre.  

Was never a big fan of Noon but him and Cipriani played very well vs Ireland in 2008.

England -

Andy Farrell
Tim Payne
Erinle
Leslie Vanikolo
Henry Paul
Lee Mears
Paul Hodgson
David Paice
Paul Kennedy - perhaps a bit harsh!
Tom Varndell

Callum Clarke - did he ever get capped? He was in so many squads!

Another player (like Erinle) who only got two caps - yet still two too many.

Sam Vesty.


A good club man, who hit the kind of purple streak that all players get once in a career. This coincided with injuries and a Lions tour and suddenly he had been capped.

Tom May

propdavid_london wrote:Tom May

Aye, tom May fits exactly what i said about Vesty. We should always be careful when a more experienced player suddenly hits a purple patch. There were papers pushing the likes of Petrus du Plessis, Don Armand and Mitch Lees for the EPS - players who were bang in form but also performing way above their previous base level.

God this thread is depressing as hell if you are English!

Basically a lot of the players between 2004 and well........2010? Thank God for the U20s and the talent they now produce.

Ryan Lamb? He must have got a few caps and is pants

Same with Shane Geraghty and Olly Barkley. All just slightly better then average fly halves, who have one amazing game in 10 that pundits go nuts over and then are poor.

yappysnap wrote:Ryan Lamb? He must have got a few caps and is pants

Same with Shane Geraghty and Olly Barkley. All just slightly better then average fly halves, who have one amazing game in 10 that pundits go nuts over and then are poor.

Thanks mate. Coldn't agree more. Saints were blessed to have had Lamb and Geraghty at one time or another. Both were exactly as you described: One good'un in 10. Maybe. Happy to see them off at greener pastures. Geraghty did have that one terrific moment in the 6 Nations.
Then...........................well..............we're waiting...............

I think you mean Barkley there Doc.

All I remember of Geraghty is him looking more and more like the blond guy from The Man from Uncle

Answer for me will always be Rob Saunders. I don't mind that he was born in Nottingham of Scottish parents and couldn't even get into the Ulster team when he was first capped, but the selectors, headed by the matchless lunatic Ciaran Fitzgerald, also made him Ireland captain on his debut because of Matthews' ongoing injury.

Five games as captain; no wins. 12 caps in all, on the winning side against just Japan and Zimbabwe, which was no coincidence. He also was largely responsible for conceding the position from which Lynagh scored the last-gasp try against us in that RWC quarter-final. Could pass OK; could do feck all else. Loved to talk about Ireland's strategy as skipper - it appeared to consist of two words: massive commitment. The embodiment of the 1990s wasteland that was Irish rugby.

yappysnap wrote:I think you mean Barkley there Doc.

All I remember of Geraghty is him looking more and more like the blond guy from The Man from Uncle

We never had Barkley at Saints, Yappy. But did have Lamb and Geraghty. Both were brought in to improve our fly half options from Stevie Myler. Both were mercurial (meaning 1 good match and a lot of poop). They both had the unique ability to throw an intercepted pass only in the dying minutes or slice a key kick into touch at will. I remember Barkley at Bath and Gloucester, then maybe France(?). Is he still around and kicking?

yappysnap wrote:Ryan Lamb? He must have got a few caps and is pants
r.

On phone waiting for kick off so cannot check. Pretty sure ryan lamb not capped.

rapidsnowman wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Ireland

Richard Wallace

Harsh!
We weren't exactly flush with talent in that era and Wallace on one wing and Simon Geoghan on the other was pretty good for us back then.
Toured with Lions too.
3 brothers - a wing, a prop and a flanker! work that out.

Now Jim Staples on the other hand!

I thought Staples was good.

Lamb only got saxons caps thank goodness.

Olly Barkley is interesting in that he played for England before he played a first team game for Bath. On tour in USA I think it was.

Kurt McQuilkin
Christian Saverimutto
Matt Mostyn

What did Ireland fans think of Justin Bishop?
I thought he was ok.

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I think you mean Barkley there Doc.

All I remember of Geraghty is him looking more and more like the blond guy from The Man from Uncle

We never had Barkley at Saints, Yappy.  But did have Lamb and Geraghty.  Both were brought in to improve our fly half options from Stevie Myler.  Both were mercurial (meaning 1 good match and a lot of poop).  They both had the unique ability to throw an intercepted pass only in the dying minutes or slice a key kick into touch at will.  I remember Barkley at Bath and Gloucester, then maybe France(?).  Is he still around and kicking?

I always really liked Olly Barkley. My kind of inside centre. Always feel a talented player like that, as flaky as they can be, are really held back by two things

1) coaches not knowing how to develop them- more at lower levels than the elite level, but some Australian/NZ players have a big head start on them
2) Other players just not being on their wavelength. If I had a penny for every time I've seen a skilful Irish player throw an offload and it goes to ground because the receiving player is only thinking of clearing the next ruck and not anticipating the ball coming to them... again, this is what's coached from a young age, at least over here.

Barkley wasn't as flaky as Lamb or Geraghty, but then again I always thought those were guys who were pushed into the 10 role because they were skillful but slight and the centre positions are viewed as being positions which are about winning the collisions.

Agree Barkley was a little more reliable than Lamb or Geraghty. To be fair to Geraghty he couldn't play Centre because he couldn't tackle. Nice ball skills, but rattled a bit under pressure.

Lamb was just nuts. Kind of like Carlos Spencer, but without the ball skills.
At the Gardens people used to say: "Lamb giveth, and Lamb giveth away".

Jason Jones Hughes
Brett Sinkinson
Hal Luscombe
Andy Marinos

Most of the players capped in the 90s for Wales

bedfordwelsh wrote:Most of the players capped in the 90s for Wales

But then you could not have selected a team.

LondonTiger wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Most of the players capped in the 90s for Wales

But then you could not have selected a team.

LT,

Having sat through a lot of those games it looked like there wasn't a team out there most of the time

doctor_grey wrote:At the Gardens people used to say:  "Lamb giveth, and Lamb giveth away".  

I like that a lot. They're a pretty erudite bunch down there at Franklin's Gardens. The rugby is agricultural but the fans are highly refined

[quote="GeordieFalcon"]How many did the "chainsaw" get for Scotland?

And wasn't there a big oaf of a prop called Andy Watt who was a lock turned LH (6'5) I think he was.

For England....
Erinle
Tim Payne
Lee Mears
David Paice

Ah theres soo many....[/quote]

Georgie you are so right, their was so many England players it is hard too count. The one i am think of was a scrum half. Cannot think of his name. Played same time as Payne.

Any way as for Wales the only player i can think of is Rupert Moon.

For England - the one and (thankfully)only Phil Christophers

majesticimperialman wrote:The one i am think of was a scrum half. Cannot think of his name. Played same time as Payne.

Perhaps Shaun Perry or Peter Richards? both made it into the teens in terms of caps during the second half of the "noughties".

Many of the home nations have struggled at some point in the last few decades, and in their troubled times they offer some priceless examples who just weren't good enough to compete at international level, but circumstances led to some getting lots of caps.....

Scotland: Simon Danielli; Nick de Luca; Dan Parks
Wales: Nigel Walker
England: Jamie Noon and lots of ex-rugby league types

Maj
I presume the SH you were thinking of was Shaun Perry? Nimble and sylph-like he wasn't...

No suggestions of Andy Foode Goode?

Actually, mentioning Andy Goode has got me thinking about the guys who were excellent club players who just didn't make the transition to international standard. Guys like:

Phil Dowson
Nick Kennedy
Matt Bananaman
Dan Hipkiss

Joe Worsley

wrfc1980 wrote:Joe Worsley

England's 4th most capped flanker of all time. Worsley always annoyed me as he was one of the young lads who understudied at the RWC03 who should have really kicked on, but never quite managed to.

dummy_half.

I think you could be right is was Shaun perry.

Thanks for that.

Not sure Worsley quite belongs on a list of players who were lucky to get 3 caps, but kind of get the point that he had a long career without ever quite living up to early promise. I see some parallels with Haskell - all the physical attributes you could wish for, but limitations in how they play. Worsley was undoubtedly a fine defender / tackler but surely you want more from a top class 6, such as some carrying power and perhaps handling ability. Haskell of course the main limitation is between his ears...

dummy_half wrote:Not sure Worsley quite belongs on a list of players who were lucky to get 3 caps, but kind of get the point that he had a long career without ever quite living up to early promise. I see some parallels with Haskell - all the physical attributes you could wish for, but limitations in how they play. Worsley was undoubtedly a fine defender / tackler but surely you want more from a top class 6, such as some carrying power and perhaps handling ability. Haskell of course the main limitation is between his ears...

Worsley was a smart chap, a good defender and was a good alternative during the Hill, Back and Dillaglio years. The trio of Corry, Moody & Worsley would have been seen as world class in itself, probably the next best backrow in GB & IRE in that era. The French being only superior to the England 2nd backrow choice.

fa0019 wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Not sure Worsley quite belongs on a list of players who were lucky to get 3 caps, but kind of get the point that he had a long career without ever quite living up to early promise. I see some parallels with Haskell - all the physical attributes you could wish for, but limitations in how they play. Worsley was undoubtedly a fine defender / tackler but surely you want more from a top class 6, such as some carrying power and perhaps handling ability. Haskell of course the main limitation is between his ears...

Worsley was a smart chap, a good defender and was a good alternative during the Hill, Back and Dillaglio years. The trio of Corry, Moody & Worsley would have been seen as world class in itself, probably the next best backrow in GB & IRE in that era. The French being only superior to the England 2nd backrow choice.

Moody had some great moments but Corry would have been a great in another era. He just had such a tough act to follow

lostinwales wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Not sure Worsley quite belongs on a list of players who were lucky to get 3 caps, but kind of get the point that he had a long career without ever quite living up to early promise. I see some parallels with Haskell - all the physical attributes you could wish for, but limitations in how they play. Worsley was undoubtedly a fine defender / tackler but surely you want more from a top class 6, such as some carrying power and perhaps handling ability. Haskell of course the main limitation is between his ears...

Worsley was a smart chap, a good defender and was a good alternative during the Hill, Back and Dillaglio years. The trio of Corry, Moody & Worsley would have been seen as world class in itself, probably the next best backrow in GB & IRE in that era. The French being only superior to the England 2nd backrow choice.

Moody had some great moments but Corry would have been a great in another era. He just had such a tough act to follow

I recall in 2004 when he tore Schalk Burger (the new world player of the year) a new one. Burger has stated publicly that that match was the toughest he's ever been in. Quite a statement.

For me - Craig Joiner

Got thrown around like a rag doll, but still got 25 caps!!!

Our backs have been awful for many a year

At 26 and 25 when RWC03 ended, Worsley and Moody were needed to really step forward stamp their mark on the England team. they never quite managed it sadly.

Corry was perhaps in a different boat. He was only a year younger than Dayglo and perhaps always in his shadow. He was however a fantastic player.

Joiner is one of the few rugby internationalists to look genuinely scared of the ball. He had pace and good accelaration, but I think his finest work was done in a Merchiston Castle rugby jersey.

Joiner did all right for us, but was much better at centre.

Talking about a Merchiston Castle alumni reminds me of another. Roger Baird, good player and not at all saying he belongs on this list, but a winger with 27 caps and zero tries is a record that will take some beating. (Admittedly he did get one try against NZ for the Lions - ony one they scored in that 4 match series I believe).

LondonTiger wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Joe Worsley

England's 4th most capped flanker of all time.  Worsley always annoyed me as he was one of the young lads who understudied at the RWC03 who should have really kicked on, but never quite managed to.

I wish one of his caps hadn't come against Wales a few years back when he was picked to single handedly mark Roberts out of the game and fair play to him he done it perfectly.

Is Dan Lydiate the new Joe Worsley?

Tim Payne
Tom Youngs
Nick Kennedy?
Phil Dowson
Alex Goode
Billy Twelvetrees
Sam Burgess