6N 2016: England v Wales, 12 March

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v WALES
12 March 2016
KO: 16:00 GMT
Twickenham, London

Live on ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

119 Played 119
53 Won 54
12 Drawn 12
54 Lost 53
1,428 Points 1,371

B. Recent Form

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England
2015 Six Nations

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England
2014 Six Nations

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales
2013 Six Nations

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

bedfordwelsh wrote:Fanster,

Pretty much covers it in a nutshell though I still think he should have scored that try (conjecture or assumption aside) i feel the other welsh wingers we have would of.

James has always been regarded as a lazy player and whilst Cuthbert isn't exactly the busiest he does go looking for work as is willing to take the ball on.

If it was my decision I would have them in the order of Amos Cuthbert James.

I'd agree, Amos has way more about him, even if the physicallity isn't it. I'd also argue 1/2p back to wing? or at very least to 15 and Williams ahead of all 3 above.

If Walker could just stay fit for 5 minutes he'd surely be in the race too.

With regards to the game...

I think it all depends on what England do, it's hard to say but fr the first time in a while I think they hold most, if not all the cards.

If England make no changes, show beleif in the 17 guys or so who have started then they'll have enough to win it, if Jones makes rash changes to counter Wales threats I think Wales have the edge.

I really think thats where Lancaster made the mistake, he didn't act like the big brash invincible favourite he should've, and was a bit too nice and thoughtfull. With Englands squad they should be talking of Scotland and Italy like lower levels, because tbh they are right now (no offence to them).

This is Englands and Jones biggest test yet, but at Twickers, with the momentum, fresh captain, playing style, ethos etc Wales is a test, they'll have to do something special to win this.

carpet baboon wrote:Why was tom James dropped? He looked good and is n good form. I can't see what cuthbert adds to be honest (apart from hight)

Because James was never good enough to get a recall and now the coaches have finally seen that after he's offered nothing in the games he started. Cuthbert looked alright against France and whilst both are pretty bad, Cuthbert is the more solid option.

Anyway, glad Charteris made the bench. For the guy who asked, Charteris missed the France game through injury so it makes sense to continue with the in-form Davies. Good bench options for us there, apart from Priestland.

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales good starting 15, however if England are ahead I don't see anyone on the Wales bench that is going to strike any fear into the England team. Particulary their back options. I find it strange to see Priestland AND Anscombe on the bench.

Tipuric, Owens, Charteris and Paul James all look strong selections on the bench, Rhys Webb too. Priestland and Anscombe give Wales cover for all the backline positions and add a different style too.

That is a good bench.

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't bank on that Bedford, Toner was supposed to do the same and ended up being ineffective, we even turned a few of their lineouts over.

In a turgid draw that saw the line-outs about even for and against?

If England keep their discipline, they'll win comfortably. I'm hoping they do keep their discipline, however that will rob of us of seeing Biggar do The Macarena before each kick. That has the whole pub in stitches of laughter when he does that.

I bet they were wetting themselves with laughter when he kicked that final penalty at HQ in the RWC then

RubyGuby wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't bank on that Bedford, Toner was supposed to do the same and ended up being ineffective, we even turned a few of their lineouts over.

In a turgid draw that saw the line-outs about even for and against?

If England keep their discipline, they'll win comfortably. I'm hoping they do keep their discipline, however that will rob of us of seeing Biggar do The Macarena before each kick. That has the whole pub in stitches of laughter when he does that.

I bet they were wetting themselves with laughter when he kicked that final penalty at HQ in the RWC then

RubyGuby

Why keep going on about the RWC. This is the 6ns. Lets concentrate on that shell wee.

RubyGuby wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't bank on that Bedford, Toner was supposed to do the same and ended up being ineffective, we even turned a few of their lineouts over.

In a turgid draw that saw the line-outs about even for and against?

If England keep their discipline, they'll win comfortably. I'm hoping they do keep their discipline, however that will rob of us of seeing Biggar do The Macarena before each kick. That has the whole pub in stitches of laughter when he does that.

I bet they were wetting themselves with laughter when he kicked that final penalty at HQ in the RWC then

Wales just need to play a steady patient game and keep the pressure on England. This England team have chocked under pressure many times before and they didn't enjoy the Irish second half pressure last week. They lost two players to the bin and we're lucky not to lose another, could have been two men missing for the last ten last match.

I am sure England will be targeted down the ten twelve channel. I am sure it will be a tight game. Hopefully we see some exciting rugby too.

This match is a huge hurdle for England. If they can beat Wales it really could mark a positive future for Eddie Jones hard work turning them into a decent side in the next few years.

Pretty unlucky to lose 2 men and stood up to the pressure coming back strongly you mean maes? We are either a decent side already or not really chokers also.

majesticimperialman wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't bank on that Bedford, Toner was supposed to do the same and ended up being ineffective, we even turned a few of their lineouts over.

In a turgid draw that saw the line-outs about even for and against?

If England keep their discipline, they'll win comfortably. I'm hoping they do keep their discipline, however that will rob of us of seeing Biggar do The Macarena before each kick. That has the whole pub in stitches of laughter when he does that.

I bet they were wetting themselves with laughter when he kicked that final penalty at HQ in the RWC then

RubyGuby

Why keep going on about the RWC. This is the 6ns. Lets concentrate on that shell wee.

Because that was the last time the two teams met at Twickenham. It makes a lot of sense to refer to similar clash that was only a few months ago.

This time Wales have a lot more first choice players back from injury, which will hopefully show an improved performance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pretty unlucky to lose 2 men and stood up to the pressure coming back strongly you mean maes? We are either a decent side already or not really chokers also.

I guess your chance to find out if England can handle the pressure is this weekend.

Even Martin Johnson captained England missed numerous grand slams losing to Scotland, Ireland and Wales in different years.

Similar story ever since, big game and a missed opportunity, RWC, the last five six nations...!

In that time Wales and Ireland have prospered and taken Grandslams and championships a good few times.

If Eddie Jones can stop that cycle then England's prospects will look good.

RubyGuby wrote:Lots of criticisms aimed at Cuthbert and Tipuric on here and a lot of plaudits and anticipation towards the prospect of Tuilagi coming into the game. The last time we had a GS decider v England, Tipuric was on fire, Cuthbert scored 2 trys and Tuilagi illustrated the peripheral vision and awareness of Stevie Wonder and the game management of Steve McLaren. I think they call it selective memory and attention in the trade.

That was in Wales against an incredibly fired up Welsh team with a little help from you know who, and its been done to death even more than the RWC game. In other games vs England Cuthbert has been more of a liability than a help. A great open field runner but he isn't the best defender and isn't the best at handling the ball under pressure. As an England supporter I am pretty happy to see him selected.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pretty unlucky to lose 2 men and stood up to the pressure coming back strongly you mean maes? We are either a decent side already or not really chokers also.

Pretty much been the definition of word surely ?

Don't get me wrong I feel it's a bit of a compliment if you think we've been choking. I never rated us as much as you guys.

majesticimperialman wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't bank on that Bedford, Toner was supposed to do the same and ended up being ineffective, we even turned a few of their lineouts over.

In a turgid draw that saw the line-outs about even for and against?

If England keep their discipline, they'll win comfortably. I'm hoping they do keep their discipline, however that will rob of us of seeing Biggar do The Macarena before each kick. That has the whole pub in stitches of laughter when he does that.

I bet they were wetting themselves with laughter when he kicked that final penalty at HQ in the RWC then

RubyGuby

Why keep going on about the RWC. This is the 6ns. Lets concentrate on that shell wee.

Oh come on, that was a classic comeback. Revel in the humour rather than taking it too seriously

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think even Rob Jones will be surprised by his performance that day, however I thought Rob Evans had a really good game

I knew that didn't sound right!

maestegmafia wrote:This England team have chocked under pressure many times before

No they haven't. To chock is to prevent the movement of a wheel or vehicle with a chock.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:This England team have chocked under pressure many times before

No they haven't. To chock is to prevent the movement of a wheel or vehicle with a chock.

Nowell has probably put plenty of cars on blocks....

maestegmafia wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't bank on that Bedford, Toner was supposed to do the same and ended up being ineffective, we even turned a few of their lineouts over.

In a turgid draw that saw the line-outs about even for and against?

If England keep their discipline, they'll win comfortably. I'm hoping they do keep their discipline, however that will rob of us of seeing Biggar do The Macarena before each kick. That has the whole pub in stitches of laughter when he does that.

I bet they were wetting themselves with laughter when he kicked that final penalty at HQ in the RWC then

Wales just need to play a steady patient game and keep the pressure on England. This England team have chocked under pressure many times before and they didn't enjoy the Irish second half pressure last week. They lost two players to the bin and we're lucky not to lose another, could have been two men missing for the last ten last match.

I am sure England will be targeted down the ten twelve channel. I am sure it will be a tight game. Hopefully we see some exciting rugby too.

This match is a huge hurdle for England. If they can beat Wales it really could mark a positive future for Eddie Jones hard work turning them into a decent side in the next few years.

From your comment about this match being a huge hurdle for England you would think that England had lost the last two matches in the 6 nations to Wales in 2014 and 2015.

On the contrary in the 6 nations England are going for a 3rd win in a row vs Wales.

Every team needs to put pressure on the opposition.

https://www.606v2.com/t60698p250-england-v-wales-part-2-26-September

A link to an old thread?

I know caps and experience don't win games alone but the Welsh starting XV amass 675 caps with the bench boasting another 281.

Now let's say Jones names and unchanged starting XV England will boast a total of 527 that's nearly a 148 less than Wales and the only place they have the edge in numbers of caps is the front row and half backs.

So why as yappysnap said should England win and win comfortably? I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side both sides have a lot of experience and Wales are hugely experienced and settled.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know caps and experience don't win games alone but the Welsh starting XV amass 675 caps with the bench boasting another 281.

Now let's say Jones names and unchanged starting XV England will boast a total of 527 that's nearly a 148 less than Wales and the only place they have the edge in numbers of caps is the front row and half backs.

So why as yappysnap said should England win and win comfortably?  I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side both sides have a lot of experience and Wales are hugely experienced and settled.

Because Wales have looked clueless in attack, made lots of errors and struggled so far this 6 nations.

wrfc1980 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know caps and experience don't win games alone but the Welsh starting XV amass 675 caps with the bench boasting another 281.

Now let's say Jones names and unchanged starting XV England will boast a total of 527 that's nearly a 148 less than Wales and the only place they have the edge in numbers of caps is the front row and half backs.

So why as yappysnap said should England win and win comfortably?  I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side both sides have a lot of experience and Wales are hugely experienced and settled.

Because Wales have looked clueless in attack, made lots of errors and struggled so far this 6 nations.

Yet we are still undefeated and our defence has been pretty much spot on so if England are to win and win comfortably as some are predicting they themselves will have to cut out a lot of their own errors and do it against something other than a poor Scotland side and an average Italy side.

wrfc1980 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know caps and experience don't win games alone but the Welsh starting XV amass 675 caps with the bench boasting another 281.

Now let's say Jones names and unchanged starting XV England will boast a total of 527 that's nearly a 148 less than Wales and the only place they have the edge in numbers of caps is the front row and half backs.

So why as yappysnap said should England win and win comfortably?  I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side both sides have a lot of experience and Wales are hugely experienced and settled.

Because Wales have looked clueless in attack, made lots of errors and struggled so far this 6 nations.

Clueless ? Nah

'Lots of errors' - In what way - where are the stats ?

Struggled ? We drew with the current 6 Nations champions away from home and are improving each game.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know caps and experience don't win games alone but the Welsh starting XV amass 675 caps with the bench boasting another 281.

Now let's say Jones names and unchanged starting XV England will boast a total of 527 that's nearly a 148 less than Wales and the only place they have the edge in numbers of caps is the front row and half backs.

So why as yappysnap said should England win and win comfortably?  I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side both sides have a lot of experience and Wales are hugely experienced and settled.

Because Wales have looked clueless in attack, made lots of errors and struggled so far this 6 nations.

Yet we are still undefeated and our defence has been pretty much spot on so if England are to win and win comfortably as some are predicting they themselves will have to cut out a lot of their own errors and do it against something other than a poor Scotland side and an average Italy side.

A poor Scottish side playing at home that scored two tries and ran Wales close in Cardiff. I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side but if Scotland can find a way through the Welsh defense then England should be able to, and England's defense is pretty strong too. The main danger to England would seem to be the penalty count and Biggar's kicking.

I'm reasonably confident that if England play well it will be a comfortable game (if not scoreline wise). The last 3 games our pack has managed to get on top and with that we've been in control. What we failed to do particularly in the last game is put enough points on the board during our better periods. While I remain confident that's the worry for me.

Anyone who thinks Scotland weren't poor in that opening game must have drunk too much they were terrible by any stretch of the imagination.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know caps and experience don't win games alone but the Welsh starting XV amass 675 caps with the bench boasting another 281.

Now let's say Jones names and unchanged starting XV England will boast a total of 527 that's nearly a 148 less than Wales and the only place they have the edge in numbers of caps is the front row and half backs.

So why as yappysnap said should England win and win comfortably?  I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side both sides have a lot of experience and Wales are hugely experienced and settled.

I posted the link to the old thread as I'm getting a sense of deja vu here - I think we've heard all this recently, well about 6 months ago - Swing Low!

Not much has changed in that 6 months. 2 even teams and a game that could swing either way.

What are the rumours anyone heard, will he start Manu or have him on the bench or not at all?

Manu is driving the bus

Manu is the bus.

bedfordwelsh I think caps are a bit overrated in telling you how a player is going to do.

Haskell's numerous caps don't make him a better player. He's still got the same pros and cons.

A growth of a player's ability can vary.

Your 9s don't have many caps yet I rate both Webb and Davies highly. Phillips had many more caps. Doesn't mean he's a better 9 now.

Wales are a settled side but then again I feel you are bit stagnant. England on the other hand if they play the likes of Clifford,Itoje and Daly might add some injection of tempo that wasn't seen in the RWC.

Against Ireland, I think Itoje whose one of our most inexperienced players but also helped shut down the highly rated Devin Toner.

Youngs and Care both experienced 9s seem to fluctuate in form and skill, sometimes being ponderous and clueless and others being dangerous. Almost seems random at times.

Faletau has a lot more caps than his cousins. Will that matter? We'll see.

RubyGuby wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know caps and experience don't win games alone but the Welsh starting XV amass 675 caps with the bench boasting another 281.

Now let's say Jones names and unchanged starting XV England will boast a total of 527 that's nearly a 148 less than Wales and the only place they have the edge in numbers of caps is the front row and half backs.

So why as yappysnap said should England win and win comfortably?  I don't think it will be a comfortable win for either side both sides have a lot of experience and Wales are hugely experienced and settled.

I posted the link to the old thread as I'm getting a sense of deja vu here - I think we've heard all this recently, well about 6 months ago - Swing Low!

And we all know how that turned out

Not like Wales to release their team this early, trying to tempt Jones into changing his team.

Scotland didn't 'run us close' their late try flattered them.

beshocked wrote:bedfordwelsh I think caps are a bit overrated in telling you how a player is going to do.

Haskell's numerous caps don't make him a better player. He's still got the same pros and cons.

A growth of a player's ability can vary.

Your 9s don't have many caps yet I rate both Webb and Davies highly. Phillips had many more caps. Doesn't mean he's a better 9 now.

Wales are a settled side but then again I feel you are bit stagnant. England on the other hand if they play the likes of Clifford,Itoje and Daly might add some injection of tempo that wasn't seen in the RWC.

Against Ireland, I think Itoje whose one of our most inexperienced players but also helped shut down the highly rated Devin Toner.

Youngs and Care both experienced 9s seem to fluctuate in form and skill, sometimes being ponderous and clueless and others being dangerous. Almost seems random at times.

Faletau has a lot more caps than his cousins. Will that matter? We'll see.

I agree especially these days when they are given out for sub replacements even if on for last minute etc but the experience these games give and the settled combinations should help IN THEORY lol

TightHEAD wrote:Not like Wales to release their team this early, trying to tempt Jones into changing his team.

Doubt Jones will get fooled if it was aimed at that but more fool him if he does. He normally releases it on the Tuesday and the only thing that would have affected that is if they thought Jenkins would have been fit.

beshocked wrote:bedfordwelsh I think caps are a bit overrated in telling you how a player is going to do.

Haskell's numerous caps don't make him a better player. He's still got the same pros and cons.

A growth of a player's ability can vary.

Your 9s don't have many caps yet I rate both Webb and Davies highly. Phillips had many more caps. Doesn't mean he's a better 9 now.

Wales are a settled side but then again I feel you are bit stagnant. England on the other hand if they play the likes of Clifford,Itoje and Daly might add some injection of tempo that wasn't seen in the RWC.

Against Ireland, I think Itoje whose one of our most inexperienced players but also helped shut down the highly rated Devin Toner.

Youngs and Care both experienced 9s seem to fluctuate in form and skill, sometimes being ponderous and clueless and others being dangerous. Almost seems random at times.

Faletau has a lot more caps than his cousins. Will that matter? We'll see.

The only people that rate that lankly streak are the Irish

munkian wrote:Scotland didn't 'run us close' their late try flattered them.

Likewise the French game

majesticimperialman wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't bank on that Bedford, Toner was supposed to do the same and ended up being ineffective, we even turned a few of their lineouts over.

In a turgid draw that saw the line-outs about even for and against?

If England keep their discipline, they'll win comfortably. I'm hoping they do keep their discipline, however that will rob of us of seeing Biggar do The Macarena before each kick. That has the whole pub in stitches of laughter when he does that.

I bet they were wetting themselves with laughter when he kicked that final penalty at HQ in the RWC then

RubyGuby

Why keep going on about the RWC. This is the 6ns. Lets concentrate on that shell wee.

You'd think they'd won the WC the way the Welsh go on about beating England last year - not limping into the 1/4 finals courtesy of Stewart Lancaster's bizarre game management and then being dumped out themselves.

Banter aside, just can't see Eddie Jones making the same mistakes - I certainly hope he doesn't start with Manu for example - or even consider him as a replacement. His own DoR says he isn't ready for it yet. Its fine if you have him as a replacement, providing he isn't brought on through necessity after just 5 minutes. I'd like to see him earn his place back in the squad, there are able incumbents.

Wales are a good, strong side, but strangely, I think the expectation is on them to perform more than it is England. They're the most settled side in the tournament after all. The English defence has been good though, and its not like you don't know where the Welsh will be attacking from. I'd expect a strong kick chase game from England - heaven knows there's enough Saracens players in the team to exploit the tactic - to get behind the Welsh defence, which has been exposed on several occasions already this 6N by such a tactic.

My concern would be at the breakdown, where Wales have consistently shown England the way in the past few meetings between the two teams. I don't think Wales will be allowed to milk penalties at scrum time by Joubert, so the breakdown is where its at. I want to see England hitting that breakdown with real aggression and in numbers, a bit of dog is what we want.

Milk penalties ? You mean like Marler was proven to be doing ?

munkian wrote:Milk penalties ? You mean like Marler was proven to be doing ?

No, I mean like the well known, tried and tested Welsh tactic of milking penalties at the scrum. Oh and the breakdown too, so Macarena can kick the points.

Wales are favorites but England have the pressure to avenge the RWC game.

Its going to be tight and so much will depend on the Refs management of the scrum and breakdown, if like the other Refs so far during the 6 nations Wales will be allowed to slow the ball down and get away with murder and England will get pinged in the scrum whether its their put in or not, sometimes it feels like the England front row have been penalized just for looking at the Ref in a certain way.

Jimpy wrote:

munkian wrote:Milk penalties ? You mean like Marler was proven to be doing ?

No, I mean like the well known, tried and tested Welsh tactic of milking penalties at the scrum. Oh and the breakdown too, so Macarena can kick the points.

How do we 'milk' penalties at the break down ?

munkian wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

munkian wrote:Milk penalties ? You mean like Marler was proven to be doing ?

No, I mean like the well known, tried and tested Welsh tactic of milking penalties at the scrum. Oh and the breakdown too, so Macarena can kick the points.

How do we 'milk' penalties at the break down ?  

Sorry, I meant 'get away with murder at the breakdown'.

Jimpy wrote:

munkian wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

munkian wrote:Milk penalties ? You mean like Marler was proven to be doing ?

No, I mean like the well known, tried and tested Welsh tactic of milking penalties at the scrum. Oh and the breakdown too, so Macarena can kick the points.

How do we 'milk' penalties at the break down ?  

Sorry, I meant 'get away with murder at the breakdown'.

By being quicker over the ball than you and having a balanced back row ?

So you have us down as favourites, I make us slight favourites. Should be a good close game all the same.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you have us down as favourites, I make us slight favourites. Should be a good close game all the same.

I would be hugely surprised if there were many points in it either way.

Think I'm going to say by about 5 points come the prediction league. Waiting for the lock pairing and bench before deciding. Think I'll need a drink watching it.