Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

I understand and respect all the arguments against this kind of post 18 months before but the proper journalists are all having a so we might as well. It happens after every tournament.

For what it's worth I'd pick:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. J. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Faletau
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. McGrath
17. MacInally
18. Lee
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Youngs
22. Biggar
23. Halfpenny

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. AWJ
5. Launchbury
6. Faletau
7. Warberton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Bigger
11. Watson
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. North
15. Brown

16. McInally
17. Evans
18. Cole
19. Itoje
20. Strauss
21. Youngs
22. Farrell
23. Hogg

No Irish players selected as they will all be on a 3 match tour to Aus getting some valuable experience and RWC ranking points. To be quite honest, how many Irish lads would significantly improve that team?

The 2nd row is insanely strong, you could simply pick 2 of 7 lads from a hat.

I live and hope.

Didn't he also lead in turnovers won going into the final round of the six nations.....

Ireland have a three match to Australia in 2017?

the-goon wrote:1. Vunipola Healy
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. AWJ
5. Launchbury
6. Faletau
7. Warberton O'Brien
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Bigger
11. Watson
12. Roberts
13. Davies Henshaw
14. North
15. Brown

16. McInally Best
17. Evans McGrath
18. Cole
19. Itoje
20. Strauss
21. Youngs Murray
22. Farrell Sexton
23. Hogg

No Irish players selected as they will all be on a 3 match tour to Aus getting some valuable experience and RWC ranking points. To be quite honest, how many Irish lads would significantly improve that team?

The 2nd row is insanely strong, you could simply pick 2 of 7 lads from a hat.

I live and hope.

I've addressed your question above, accepting your selection as the starting point. That's quite a few changes.

The Lions will need input from each of the Home Nations to beat New Zealand. We will need to be at our very best to have even a slim chance.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have a three match to Australia in 2017?

I wish they did instead of wasting around with this Lions BS.

I should also add that your suggestion for playing Faletau at 6 is something I've been considering as well. He's a very good allrounder, although by then Stander could well be firmly established as the front runner.

the-goon wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have a three match to Australia in 2017?

I wish they did instead of wasting around with this Lions BS.

Seconded.

the-goon wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have a three match to Australia in 2017?

I wish they did instead of wasting around with this Lions BS.

Ah, you're one of those. Spends time focusing on the Lions and drafting up proposed line-ups and then pretends not to care.

I shouldn't have wasted time responding to your post.

Rather than picking starters at present its perhaps best to just look at the top 3 you would like to see in each position, be it a mix of current form, experience and or a wild card or 2.

Dickinson, Mako V, McGrath
Hartley, Srauss, George
Nel, Cole, M.Ross
Itoje, Launchbury, AWJ
J Gray, Kruis, Charteris
Warbs, Robshaw, C.Henry
SOB, Hardie, CJ Stander
Vunipola, Felatau, N.Hughes
Care, C.Murray, Gareth Davies
Sexton, Farrell, Biggar
North, Watson, Tommy Seymor
Roberts, Tuilagi, Slade
JD2, Joseph, R.Henshaw
Bowe, Nowell, Trimble
Hogg, Brown, Liam Williams

Some are slightly out of position.....some are in there on past rep and others are wildcards!
Anyway - just my thoughts at the moment. I am sure this will change as we see more European games and Summer tours.

Established but unlucky to miss out -
G.Ford, Heaslip, Best, Haskell, many more

Long shots but would love for these guys to be involved too -
Wade, Clifford, Morgan (if back to form), Eliot Daly,

funnyExiledScot wrote:

the-goon wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have a three match to Australia in 2017?

I wish they did instead of wasting around with this Lions BS.

Ah, you're one of those. Spends time focusing on the Lions and drafting up proposed line-ups and then pretends not to care.

I shouldn't have wasted time responding to your post.

My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I did make a considered attempt to make a English, Welsh, Scots Lions.

Also, the only Irish lads that would break into that 23 are McGrath, Stander, Sexton, Murray and maybe Henshaw. There are others that could make it in case of injuries. It's a testament to how well Joe has done with this Irish team. England and Wales have better individuals across the board in my opinion. Healy and SOB are on the wane, I don't think we will see their 2013 levels again.

I like the Lions, I just like Ireland more.

An interesting exercise. My top three in each slot would be as follows:

1.Healy - McGrath - Dickinson
2.Hartley - George - Best
3.Cole - Nel - Brookes
4.Itoje - J Gray - Launchbury
5.Kruis - AWJ - Toner
6.Stander - Robshaw - Du Preez
7.O'Brien - Warburton - Hardie
8.Vunipola - Faletau - Morgan
9.Webb - Murray - Davies
10.Biggar - Sexton - Ford
11.North - Seymour - Earls
12.Henshaw - Roberts - Dunbar
13.Tuilagi - Joseph - JD2
14.Watson - Wade - Trimble
15.Hogg - Brown - Halfpenny

1. McGrath, Dickinson, Vunipola
2. Hartley, Best, George
3. Nel, Cole, Brookes
4/5. Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, J Gray, AWJ
6. Stander, Robshaw
7. Hardie, Warburton
8. Vunipola, Faletau, Hughes
9. Webb, Murray, Care
10. Biggar, Sexton, Farrell
11. North, Nowell,
12. Roberts, Tuilagi, Dunbar
13. Joseph, JD2
14. Watson, Seymour
15. Hogg, Williams, Brown

Think everyone agrees Hogg, Watson and North will be the starting back 3 based on current form anyway.

funnyExiledScot wrote:An interesting exercise. My top three in each slot would be as follows:

1.Healy - McGrath - Dickinson
2.Hartley - George - Best
3.Cole - Nel - Brookes
4.Itoje - J Gray - Launchbury
5.Kruis - AWJ - Toner
6.Stander - Robshaw - Du Preez
7.O'Brien - Warburton - Hardie
8.Vunipola - Faletau - Morgan
9.Webb - Murray - Davies
10.Biggar - Sexton - Ford
11.North - Seymour - Earls
12.Henshaw - Roberts - Dunbar
13.Tuilagi - Joseph - JD2
14.Watson - Wade - Trimble
15.Hogg - Brown - Halfpenny

Apologies in advance because, you know, its easier to nitpick over another's selections than actually do your own. You can take it that I either agree/don't have enough knowledge to have an opinion/ don't have enough time to write a full essay or expect anyone to read it/ on most of the selections.

For the reasons mentioned above you can't judge players based on their best ever levels compared to where they are or are likely to be. SOB and Healy at their best would be absolutely on the playing list and starting, but the current versions are shadows of their former selves. I wouldn't have Toner either. He has his moments but if you want a really really really tall lock I'd go with Charteris instead. If there is going to be an Irish lock it is more likely to be Henderson, making the huge assumption (see below) that he comes back well from injury.

Its very hard to pick a couple of guys like Du Preez (because he hasn't played an international yet) or players like Tuilagi and 1/2p, because they haven't come back fully from injuries.

For all his absolute commitment and excellent boot it would be easy to see 1/2p miss out altogether (for Williams, probably, or whoever of the England wings switch to FB when Brown gets sidelined). The only reason I'd see for considering halfpenny was if Ford was considered as the best option for FH and they wanted a back up kicker. Based on this 6N I think that is unlikely.

Of the other English selections Marler might very well make it. Morgan won't unless his form improves rapidly. Haskell won't be in the initial selection but might well make it on the long list as an injury replacement. Nowell might (possibly as a FB instead of Brown?), as might May if he returns from injury well and gets a chance with England again. Hartley could be Lions captain or left at home.. You could see a lot of English players going but not necessarily making the first team.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I really do not know what the fuss is over AWJ. Great player yes, but I'm sorry - he'll be nowhere near the Lions next year.

Prepare for the backlash Tattie...

He might well be right though. AWJ really isn't anything special.

I happen to agree.

Totally agree, never seen the fuss. A top lock should at least be semi decent in the lineout also.

Lostinwales - I appreciate what you say about Healy and O'Brien. I wasn't selecting entirely on form obviously and I am being somewhat optimistic that they can re-discover what they are capable of. On form they clearly wouldn't make it.

I also agree on Du Preez, but as an Edinburgh season ticket holder I'm somewhat biased in my belief as to what I think he's capable of. He's a similar player to Stander, and I've been impressed by the impact he's made. Clearly Du Preez needs to demonstrate a similar transition to international rugby before he'd actually be picked. There's an element of crystal ball in that selection I grant you.

Your rationale on Ford and Halfpenny is spot on, and exactly why I've included both. Again, on form Ford would probably struggle against the claims from Farrell (although hard to judge at the moment with him stuck out at 12) and Finn Russell (currently injured). Still, I think Ford is an outstanding rugby talent and the brightest playmaker of all the Lions candidates. I see this blip in form as temporary, and I see class as permanent. Even off form he still managed the last 20 minutes of that France game with some great touchfinders. He's a class act. That all said, I'd prefer to have Halfpenny's unerring boot should Ford play at 10.

Morgan ahead of Heaslip was a tough call and clearly against the grain in terms of form. But, on his game, Morgan is a formidable ball carrier and as with Healy and O'Brien I'm taking an optimistic longer term view. Not interested in Nowell. Good solid military medium candidate, but this is the All Blacks. They have props quicker than Nowell.

Roberts has to be nailed on 12 on current form. I really struggle with Henshaw, do people outside of Ireland rate him?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Roberts has to be nailed on 12 on current form. I really struggle with Henshaw, do people outside of Ireland rate him?

Yes. Slightly less one dimensional than Roberts. Roberts is awesome at what he does mind you.

I really like Henshaw, but think he should be at 13 with McCloskey at 12

BamBam wrote:I really like Henshaw, but think he should be at 13 with McCloskey at 12

Agree with this. I'm a big fan of Henshaw too, but he didn't seem to ignite this year. McCloskey looks so promising, I can't believe he didn't get more gametime. I thought he was Ireland's best player against England.

I think McCoskey can be a better player than Henshaw given some proper game time. I prefer Payne at 13 tbh

A lot of people are leaving out Ian Henderson, I presume he's just slipped from people's minds. Certainly picking a team with Faletau at 6 with Henderson not in the squad makes no sense. If fit he's a near cert for the squad and a probable for the 23.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I really do not know what the fuss is over AWJ. Great player yes, but I'm sorry - he'll be nowhere near the Lions next year.

"Great player" you've said it yourself surely? You're entitled to your opinion btw. You might not rate him, like I don't rate Launchbury, Lawes and the Gray brothers. Really rate Kruis and Itoje though.

The Lions really are very lucky or blessed in the lock department next year. It will be very hard to have a serious grumble with any selection (or possibly very easy knowing some!).

AWJ hasn't had a great tournament, but we all know the quality, that said with so many options around at lock right now he'll need to find form again to travel, let alone start.

I'm not seeing Marlers input with a lions team, once (if) Healy reaches anywhere near where he was he'll eclipse Marler who's become heavier and far less mobile than when he was exciting.

There will be some huge decisions, blindside will be a massive pick with Stander, SOB, Lydiate and one of Robshaw/Haskell, not to mention Barclays recent performances, as will 8.

For me the most interesting is the back 3, Hoggs on form but as he's proved defence is optional, whereas Williams high ball and defence is superb but going forward he is about as scary as seeing Cuthbert on a team sheet. Halfpenny to return, Kearney might find form, Brown doing what he does (most of it illegal lol), I don't see anyone getting near Norths sport barring injury, but the other 2 spots are up for grabs, and thats before considering Watson, Seymour, Maitland, or Zebo.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Lions really are very lucky or blessed in the lock department next year. It will be very hard to have a serious grumble with any selection (or possibly very easy knowing some!).

Some very good players will have to miss out!

Fanster wrote:I'm not seeing Marlers input with a lions team, once (if) Healy reaches anywhere near where he was he'll eclipse Marler who's become heavier and far less mobile than when he was exciting.

Loosehead is annoying. In a good and fair world we'd have both Healy and Corbisiero fit and on form, providing two seriously quality options.

McGrath and Dickinson are probably the form picks right now. My issue with both English options, Marler and Mako V, is that they are inconsistent scrummagers. They seem to give away a lot of penalties.

Still, Corbisiero playing 60 minutes wth Healy coming off the bench (or vice versa) would have nailed down the Test spots nicely. Pity.

I don't think Healy or Corbs will ever return to form sadly. I've watched McGrath for a while now, he's the real deal.

mikey_dragon wrote:I don't think Healy or Corbs will ever return to form sadly. I've watched McGrath for a while now, he's the real deal.

 I'm inclined to agree on both points, but nevertheless I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

My picks (3 in each position), based on 6 nations plus a couple of wild cards. Not all are seasoned internationals and there's some big names left out but some will be injured and some players may probably be dropping off form by then due to age. As stated above - there's no prizes for past glories.

Loosehead: McGrath, Dickinson, Vunipola
Hooker: Hartley, George, Strauss
Tighthead: Nel, Lee, Brookes
Lock: Itoje, Charteris, Launchbury
Lock: Kruis, J Gray, Toner
Blindside: Robshaw, Stander, Lydiate
Openside: Hardie, Warburton, O'Brien
Number 8: B Vunipola, Faletau, Strauss
Scrum Half: Webb, Murray, Care
Fly Half: Biggar, Farrell, Sexton
Left Wing: North, Nowell, Earls
Inside Centre: Roberts, Slade, Henshaw
Outside Centre: Joseph, Davies, Daly
Right Wing: Watson, Seymour, Wade
Full Back: Hogg, Brown, Williams

Mcgrath I like a lot, probably the standout loosey in the tournament, Healy was poor for Leinster recently, but I wouldn't write him off.

Corbs however, I think he's coaching age grade or something now isn't he? I think he's going to struggle to get anywhere near where he was, which is a huge shame.

Mr Bounce...

You think Wade makes it as a wildcard but Halfpenny doesn't?

From an Irish perspective you can write off Rob Kearney who is long past his best and probably Cian Healy too who unfortunately doesn't look like recovering from his latest surgeries. I hold out some hope for Sean O'Brien but he needs a rethink in how he approaches the game from now on as he has played very few matches at full fitness in the last 2-3 years.
Not that anyone was really thinking about him but Tommy Bowe will be very lucky to play international rugby again.

Fanster wrote:Mcgrath I like a lot, probably the standout loosey in the tournament, Healy was poor for Leinster recently, but I wouldn't write him off.

Corbs however, I think he's coaching age grade or something now isn't he? I think he's going to struggle to get anywhere near where he was, which is a huge shame.

Mr Bounce...

You think Wade makes it as a wildcard but Halfpenny doesn't?

Halfpenny has been injured/out of international rugby for a very long time and it's not like we're short on decent kickers. I based my selection on the recent 6 Nations, not on past glories. Given how useful Halfpenny was on the previous tour, he would make most people's squads IF fit and on form. However he hasn't been recently hence my omission.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Roberts has to be nailed on 12 on current form. I really struggle with Henshaw, do people outside of Ireland rate him?

Yes. Slightly less one dimensional than Roberts. Roberts is awesome at what he does mind you.

12 is seen by many as Henshaw's third best position. He has been doing fairly well at international level at 12 without setting the world alight but he is more effective wider out or at fullback.

Could see him filling the 23 shirt for the Lions is he doesn't mange to force his way into the XV. Covering both centre positions and FB (and probably wing) is Fergus McFadden levels of versatility

theslosty wrote:Not that anyone was really thinking about him but Tommy Bowe will be very lucky to play international rugby again.

Bowe is the prime example of how the modern Lions concept destroys careers. He was rushed back into service after miraculously healing a broken hand in just two weeks! In reality the pressure to play forced him back when he obviously wasn't ready and missed most of the following season and has never regained form since.

Leigh Halfpenny was another who felt the pressure to play for the Lions in 2009, came back too soon and missed most of the next two seasons as a consequence.

Stephen Ferris is yet another who started his serious injury woes on Lions duty, and then there's BOD who was never the same after THAT spear tackle.

Picking players for the Lions is really the modern equivalent of selecting who gets to go first to face the Turks at the battle of Balaclava - ill conceived irrespective of how bravely someone attacks a gun with a sword.

GunsGerms wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

lostinwales wrote:AWJ is a good lock with good leadership skills and a ton of experience. He's not outstanding in anything in a way that is going to make another team worry about him in particular, but his all round skill set helps the Welsh pack function and he's very important for them. So its easy to see the Welsh supporters singing his praises very highly and everyone else not really caring.

The English equivalent is probably Robshaw, but only half the English supporters actually rate him

Boshed the nail on the head.


AWJ's got excellent leadership skills, and rallies the rest of the team, but I wouldn't have him above others for one of the Lions' shirts.

I'm not Welsh but I think AWJ should be Lions captain and first name on the team sheet. He isn't just a very strong leader he is also an excellent lineout operator. Probably better than anyone else in contention.

I am not Welsh, but i think we should wait and see if AJW is even fit enough to be ( on the Lions tour ) let alone captain ) However i do agree if he is fit, and on form he should go.

Regards captain? it is too early for me to be naming a captain write now.

Engine#4 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Roberts has to be nailed on 12 on current form. I really struggle with Henshaw, do people outside of Ireland rate him?

Yes. Slightly less one dimensional than Roberts. Roberts is awesome at what he does mind you.

12 is seen by many as Henshaw's third best position.  He has been doing fairly well at international level at 12 without setting the world alight but he is more effective wider out or at fullback.

Could see him filling the 23 shirt for the Lions is he doesn't mange to force his way into the XV.  Covering both centre positions and FB (and probably wing) is Fergus McFadden levels of versatility

Is henshaw comparable with Alex Dunbar or Tualangi at 12 - No !

The Great Aukster wrote:

theslosty wrote:Not that anyone was really thinking about him but Tommy Bowe will be very lucky to play international rugby again.

Bowe is the prime example of how the modern Lions concept destroys careers. He was rushed back into service after miraculously healing a broken hand in just two weeks! In reality the pressure to play forced him back when he obviously wasn't ready and missed most of the following season and has never regained form since.

Leigh Halfpenny was another who felt the pressure to play for the Lions in 2009, came back too soon and missed most of the next two seasons as a consequence.

Stephen Ferris is yet another who started his serious injury woes on Lions duty, and then there's BOD who was never the same after THAT spear tackle.

Picking players for the Lions is really the modern equivalent of selecting who gets to go first to face the Turks at the battle of Balaclava - ill conceived irrespective of how bravely someone attacks a gun with a sword.

Same for Tuilagi, and Youngs got broke last Lions tour too - although he wasn't out for so long.

My biggest concern about the Lions is this cost.

If he continues with the form he showed this season then Rob Evans won't be far off the loosehead spot.

The Great Aukster wrote:

theslosty wrote:Not that anyone was really thinking about him but Tommy Bowe will be very lucky to play international rugby again.

Bowe is the prime example of how the modern Lions concept destroys careers. He was rushed back into service after miraculously healing a broken hand in just two weeks! In reality the pressure to play forced him back when he obviously wasn't ready and missed most of the following season and has never regained form since.

Leigh Halfpenny was another who felt the pressure to play for the Lions in 2009, came back too soon and missed most of the next two seasons as a consequence.

Stephen Ferris is yet another who started his serious injury woes on Lions duty, and then there's BOD who was never the same after THAT spear tackle.

Picking players for the Lions is really the modern equivalent of selecting who gets to go first to face the Turks at the battle of Balaclava - ill conceived irrespective of how bravely someone attacks a gun with a sword.

The business with Bowe really peed me off.  It got a lot of attention amongst the sports-medical community, in and out of Rugby,  and most were as shocked as I that an alleged knowledgeable and respected doctor approved the treatment and handling Bowe received.  It was witch doctory at its worst.  To me, and many others it was bordering on something I cannot write in public.  

Regarding the other injuries in general, it is clear that Lions tours are intensely physical and after a long season the injuries are part of the cost of the tour.  My problem is I thoroughly enjoy the Lions and the great tradition it represents.  So the conundrum is how to maintain a great tradition whilst reducing the amount of Rugby to manageable levels.  Feels like spitting in the wind, no?

theslosty wrote:A lot of people are leaving out Ian Henderson, I presume he's just slipped from people's minds. Certainly picking a team with Faletau at 6 with Henderson not in the squad makes no sense. If fit he's a near cert for the squad and a probable for the 23.

I'm not forgetting about Iain Henderson at all. He's an absolute beast and a strong candidate for the squad. My only reservation is whether he's a lock or a blindside. I've thought of him as a lock in the mould of Itoje, Jonny Gray and Launchbury, which means that there's fierce competition for that role. I suspect 6 for Ireland will be CJ Stander for a while, so I assumed that Henderson would replace Ryan as Toner's partner in the boiler room.

Still, Henderson is firmly a candidate for the Lions in my mind, and his versatility could be a real asset.

doctor_grey wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

theslosty wrote:Not that anyone was really thinking about him but Tommy Bowe will be very lucky to play international rugby again.

Bowe is the prime example of how the modern Lions concept destroys careers. He was rushed back into service after miraculously healing a broken hand in just two weeks! In reality the pressure to play forced him back when he obviously wasn't ready and missed most of the following season and has never regained form since.

Leigh Halfpenny was another who felt the pressure to play for the Lions in 2009, came back too soon and missed most of the next two seasons as a consequence.

Stephen Ferris is yet another who started his serious injury woes on Lions duty, and then there's BOD who was never the same after THAT spear tackle.

Picking players for the Lions is really the modern equivalent of selecting who gets to go first to face the Turks at the battle of Balaclava - ill conceived irrespective of how bravely someone attacks a gun with a sword.

The business with Bowe really peed me off.  It got a lot of attention amongst the sports-medical community, in and out of Rugby,  and most were as shocked as I that an alleged knowledgeable and respected doctor approved the treatment and handling Bowe received.  It was witch doctory at its worst.  To me, and many others it was bordering on something I cannot write in public.  

Regarding the other injuries in general, it is clear that Lions tours are intensely physical and after a long season the injuries are part of the cost of the tour.  My problem is I thoroughly enjoy the Lions and the great tradition it represents.  So the conundrum is how to maintain a great tradition whilst reducing the amount of Rugby to manageable levels.  Feels like spitting in the wind, no?

What was your issue with the Bowe case? Keith Earls fractured his jaw in a warm up game for the last world cup and was till selected and played approx. two weeks later. Same thing happened with BOD in the '07 WC in France, he fractured his cheek in a warm up game and play the next week in a group game. Seems to happen all the time.

doctor_grey wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

theslosty wrote:Not that anyone was really thinking about him but Tommy Bowe will be very lucky to play international rugby again.

Bowe is the prime example of how the modern Lions concept destroys careers. He was rushed back into service after miraculously healing a broken hand in just two weeks! In reality the pressure to play forced him back when he obviously wasn't ready and missed most of the following season and has never regained form since.

Leigh Halfpenny was another who felt the pressure to play for the Lions in 2009, came back too soon and missed most of the next two seasons as a consequence.

Stephen Ferris is yet another who started his serious injury woes on Lions duty, and then there's BOD who was never the same after THAT spear tackle.

Picking players for the Lions is really the modern equivalent of selecting who gets to go first to face the Turks at the battle of Balaclava - ill conceived irrespective of how bravely someone attacks a gun with a sword.

The business with Bowe really peed me off.  It got a lot of attention amongst the sports-medical community, in and out of Rugby,  and most were as shocked as I that an alleged knowledgeable and respected doctor approved the treatment and handling Bowe received.  It was witch doctory at its worst.  To me, and many others it was bordering on something I cannot write in public.  

Regarding the other injuries in general, it is clear that Lions tours are intensely physical and after a long season the injuries are part of the cost of the tour.  My problem is I thoroughly enjoy the Lions and the great tradition it represents.  So the conundrum is how to maintain a great tradition whilst reducing the amount of Rugby to manageable levels.  Feels like spitting in the wind, no?

Like you I regard the Lions with a bitter sweet affection, but as the tour becomes increasingly commercialised that sentiment becomes increasingly bitter. The so-called “tradition” no longer has any meaningful substance, but is merely a poster strapline to hook misty eyed punters yearning for the amateur days when camaraderie couldn’t be valued in a bank account.

Lions tours were always attritional with players like Colin Patterson and Rodney O’Donnell both having promising rugby careers ended on tour, but at least they had ways to support themselves outside of rugby and the clubs and Unions existence in those days were under little threat. The advent of professionalism has meant that the smaller nations with fewer numbers to start with simply can't afford to lose their very best players from either club or Test rugby. These are the very players that make them successful and so by definition are the ones selected as cannon fodder on the Lions tours. If the Pro12 teams lose their best players then they can quickly get in a vicious circle of failure with dwindling revenue guaranteeing more failure and spreading to both Test and development levels. A country like England can cope with injuries and retirements much better because there is ample quantity to choose from, even though the individual cost can be tragic it is far less risk to the fabric of their game.

England’s results in the 6N season following a Lions tour are pretty much the same as in the season before the tour. Wales OTOH have always returned fewer points in the 6N post tour than they won in the pre tour 6N. The Lions is now an expensive luxury not dissimilar to ivory – quaint and sustainable in its day but now pointless and a threat to existence that should be consigned to history.

Bowe probably was rushed back by Gatland but I am blind to see how this is what has caused his decline. His problem for the last couple of years has been a lack of pace, a broken hand doesn't cause that.

Do we have any idea yet who the head coach is going to be?

Ozzy3213 wrote:Do we have any idea yet who the head coach is going to be?

NO,

But it does seem a lot of people are( in some cases) expecting it too be Gatland. Again.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Do we have any idea yet who the head coach is going to be?

NO,

But it does seem a lot of people are( in some cases) expecting it too be Gatland. Again.

If it's going to be a current National coach ( I don't think it should be) from one of the 4 home unions then given the fact Schmidt and Jones have been ruled out it will be between Cotter and Gatland.

Is Guy Noves the only NH coach in the 6N?

Thats a depressing statistic!

Fanster wrote:Is Guy Noves the only NH coach in the 6N?

Thats a depressing statistic!

the Italian coach was French to, Noves was the only National coach of his Country so to speak.

With Conna Oshae taking charge of Italy. Any posi8bility he might take charge of the Lions tour?

Or is it likely to be too early for him, with not having ( International coaching ) expierence.