Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

I understand and respect all the arguments against this kind of post 18 months before but the proper journalists are all having a so we might as well. It happens after every tournament.

For what it's worth I'd pick:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. J. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Faletau
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. McGrath
17. MacInally
18. Lee
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Youngs
22. Biggar
23. Halfpenny

Problem is the hypotheticals. Gatland did win. We don't know how an alternative team would have done.

Just because he did it doesn't mean we can't question how or look at the fallout.

It is worth pointing out that England beat mostly the same Oz team all on their own in the Autumn. It was at home but it was first up for England(If I recall correctly) which means we may have had a degree of rust which the Australians would not have had.

If I remember correctly it was a fairly different Australia squad on the Lions tour than for the November internationals and they had a new coach. That said they hammered Ireland.

True Raven wrote:

Riskysports wrote:I think the point that people are discussing is

Did Gatland ignore form players to pick ones he know? - Yes

Did we win the series - Yes

Does anyone think we could have whitewashed that particular Australian team with a more balanced team - Yes (if not Welsh), No (if Welsh)

Did Gatland bring and play injured / retired players due to them being Welsh - Maybe

Did we use the right tactic to beat the Australians - Yes, as we did win, but also maybe not as we did not whitewash them


However we won so that is now history - so lets move on to 2017

for the 2017 - if it is Gatland, then I really do worry, as regardless of who he picks - Bish Bash Ball will not work and does he have a plan B?

This is the point that people bring up to smeer the 2013 tour.  After Wales won back to back six nations titles, who were the form players that he ignored?  

Could it not be possible that maybe in 2013 Wales had the better players and Gatland picked the best players to start that first test??

Wales losing their head-to-head home game v. Ireland (at home) 2 months before the Lions were selected suggests to me that the Welsh players were not the better players.

Worth noting that Ireland were without Paul O'Connell (with D Ryan & D O'Callaghan the starting locks).

True Raven wrote:

Riskysports wrote:I think the point that people are discussing is

Did Gatland ignore form players to pick ones he know? - Yes

Did we win the series - Yes

Does anyone think we could have whitewashed that particular Australian team with a more balanced team - Yes (if not Welsh), No (if Welsh)

Did Gatland bring and play injured / retired players due to them being Welsh - Maybe

Did we use the right tactic to beat the Australians - Yes, as we did win, but also maybe not as we did not whitewash them


However we won so that is now history - so lets move on to 2017

for the 2017 - if it is Gatland, then I really do worry, as regardless of who he picks - Bish Bash Ball will not work and does he have a plan B?

This is the point that people bring up to smeer the 2013 tour.  After Wales won back to back six nations titles, who were the form players that he ignored?  

Could it not be possible that maybe in 2013 Wales had the better players and Gatland picked the best players to start that first test??

Yes, they did - but also he picked players who were not in form and / or injured - Jenkins, Warburton, Phillips etc, that should either never been on tour, or certainly not nailed on as captain -let alone bring back Shane from retirement

Was it not Lydiate who had not played for over a year or something due to injury?? (I may have the player wrong)

Only Scotland have the ability to do that - with Dan park and his masterful re-entry into International rugby to beat Engla..........Oh :-)

As a Scotsman, we have very few even in contention, so were able to look at it from a slightly less personal POV and even in our camp there was a misgiving on the selection policy

Don't get me wrong there was always going to be a strong core Welsh contingent, and rightly so - but it became a little bit of a running joke as it went on

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Here's a hypothetical. Had the Lions toured NZ in 2003, with England as the confirmed number one side in the world, what would the Test XV have looked like?

I'd have gone with this:

1.Jenkins 2.Thompson 3.Vickery 4.Johnson(c) 5.POC 6.Hill 7.Wallace 8.Dallaglio 9.Peel 10.Wilkinson 11.Robinson 12.Greenwood 13.BOD 14.Cohen 15.Lewsey

2/3 English
1/3 non-English

Is that against the "ethos" of the Lions?

I'm just trying to understand if this "ethos" requires quotas of players in the XV, rather than picking the team which, in the opinion of the coaches, is the most likely to win the match.

Woodward tried something like that for the 2005 tour to NZ and it was deemed to be one of the worst tours ever. The 2009 Tour was regarded as being one of the better tours (despite losing the Series).

Disagree on both.

My proposal above is to select a team in 2003 based on the form players in 2003 (which would have been a 2/3 English Lions XV in my opinion). Woodward picked a team in 2005 based on 2003 form. Massive difference. I note you didn't answer my question.

The 2009 tour was seen as a "better tour" in the context of 2005 (which was a disaster). 2013 was a better tour than 2009 because we won, and produced one of the great Lions performances in that 3rd Test.

Surely you'd rather beat these SH teams than lose??

Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

Paul O'Connell was only starting out (on the bench v. Australia with Gary Longwell & Mal O'Kelly starting in 2003. David Wallace didn't feature either in the hammering that Australia gave) Ireland 45-16).

I'm not sure why you would have selected them in your Lions team if they were not starting for Ireland.

GunsGerms wrote:Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

I'd agree with that.

Riskysports wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Riskysports wrote:I think the point that people are discussing is

Did Gatland ignore form players to pick ones he know? - Yes

Did we win the series - Yes

Does anyone think we could have whitewashed that particular Australian team with a more balanced team - Yes (if not Welsh), No (if Welsh)

Did Gatland bring and play injured / retired players due to them being Welsh - Maybe

Did we use the right tactic to beat the Australians - Yes, as we did win, but also maybe not as we did not whitewash them


However we won so that is now history - so lets move on to 2017

for the 2017 - if it is Gatland, then I really do worry, as regardless of who he picks - Bish Bash Ball will not work and does he have a plan B?

This is the point that people bring up to smeer the 2013 tour.  After Wales won back to back six nations titles, who were the form players that he ignored?  

Could it not be possible that maybe in 2013 Wales had the better players and Gatland picked the best players to start that first test??

Yes, they did - but also he picked players who were not in form and / or injured - Jenkins, Warburton, Phillips etc, that should either never been on tour, or certainly not nailed on as captain -let alone bring back Shane from retirement

Was it not Lydiate who had not played for over a year or something due to injury?? (I may have the player wrong)

Only Scotland have the ability to do that - with Dan park and his masterful re-entry into International rugby to beat Engla..........Oh :-)

As a Scotsman, we have very few even in contention, so were able to look at it from a slightly less personal POV and even in our camp there was a misgiving on the selection policy

Don't get me wrong there was always going to be a strong core Welsh contingent, and rightly so - but it became a little bit of a running joke as it went on

My apologies, I thought you meant the first test team as opposed to the touring squad. Yeah I agree with a few odd calls with the squad such as the omission of robshaw and the call ups of Williams and court but the welsh guys in the test team deserved to be there in my opinion

GunsGerms wrote:Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

+1.

There seemed to be a much better atmosphere on it as well, with the players mixing a lot together with some good friendships developing between the players from different countries.

The only notable mixing I saw from the Australian tour was that the Irish, Scots & English seemed to hang out together (i.e., Farrell seemed to be always hanging around with the Irish lads).

Cuthbert seemed to be the only Welsh lad that mixed around.

Sin é wrote:Paul O'Connell was only starting out (on the bench v. Australia with Gary Longwell & Mal O'Kelly starting in 2003. David Wallace didn't feature either in the hammering that Australia gave) Ireland 45-16).

I'm not sure why you would have selected them in your Lions team if they were not starting for Ireland.

Fair enough. Who would you have selected for the Lions in 2003 in order to beat one of the SH sides?

Imagine you are the coach, and it's your reputation on the line. Imagine the Lions haven't won for 16 years and people are questionning whether they will ever win again. You are the coach and your mandate is to win. Who do you pick?

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

+1.

There seemed to be a much better atmosphere on it as well, with the players mixing a lot together with some good friendships developing between the players from different countries.

The only notable mixing I saw from the Australian tour was that the Irish, Scots & English seemed to hang out together (i.e., Farrell seemed to be always hanging around with the Irish lads).

Cuthbert seemed to be the only Welsh lad that mixed around.

I was lucky enough to go to Australia and the squad mixed freely, they were also very approachable and not stand off ish as they were in 05.

bw,

They will never agree with anything positive written about 2013.

LondonTiger wrote:bw,

They will never agree with anything positive written about 2013.

Also to try and balance it a bit one of the most obnoxious group of supporters I came across was I am ashamed to say Welsh.

We were in a bar in Sydney after the final test and there was a real good mix with all sorts of songs from all countries going on.

This group who were very large numbers wise insisted on only singing Welsh songs and wouldn't join in others, saying it was a Welsh win a Welsh team etc etc.

So me and two other Welsh lads from my group took great pleasure in singing anything bar Welsh songs just to annoy them.

It's fairly natural that the 2009 tour was the one most enjoyed, given how the 2005 tour went anything remotely like what we expect the Lions to be would have been enjoyed. Furthermore many players from that era who should have toured in 2005 weren't selected, many of those who were didn't get near the test side. The 2009 tour saw many of these players who we had all watched for years and years work together and work with the likes of Ian McGeechan to reaffirm what the Lions are all about.
The 2013 tour was different, it was dominated by a Wales team, who had won two back to back six nations as well as a Welsh coaching staff. But it was won, admittedly it was at times hard to get behind the side but it was hard to argue against the team that was picked given how Wales had played in the two years prior, especially how they dispatched England, and how the Lions side eventually beat Australia, you could argue about the respective strengths of the South Africa team in 2009, New Zealand in 2005 and Australia in 2013 but these points are subjective, the only way of viewing it objectively is by results and the 2013 side is the clear winner on that front.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:Why would you want to move North to accommodate Zebo?

Zebo is ok, but nothing special. Surprised he toured to be honest.

1) Not trying to accommodate Zebo. More like using a better player than Cuthbert or rushing back an unfit Tommy Bowe. North has played plenty on the right wing (including 3 AI tests for Wales the previous autumn).

2) Zebo was playing well. He only toured because of injury. This was despite Ireland beating Wales in the Mellinium Stadium with Zebo & Craig Gilroy on the wings.

Wales had North, Cuthbert & 1/2p as their back three, with Roberts and Davies in the centre.

Ireland also came fifth that year after losing to Italy in the final round, whilst Wales smashed England to take the title.

So, Wales (at home) lost to a team that lost away to Italy.  

As for England, was anyone calling for Mike Browne, Billy Twelvetrees  or Chris Ashton to start in the final test?

Yeah pretty embarrassing huh. But still I'm glad we went on to win our second championship in a row, rather than play like amateurs and finish fifth. BOD's form from that game onward is likely what got him dropped. It seems that you believe the criteria for getting picked on this tour was to beat Wales - unfortunately for you and Keith Wood it wasn't.

Well, I'll be over the moon if none of the Welsh management are anywhere near the Lions this time. Time for the Scots and Irish to do their bit, management wise, take their turn and get the whirlwind of sh*t that accompanies that poisoned chalice Seriously, your turn.

I'd pick Joe Schmidt as head coach. He's earned it. And Vern Cotter looks to be improving Scotland too. So both of those would be a great team. When can they start? Can we start an online petition to get them elected???

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

+1.

There seemed to be a much better atmosphere on it as well, with the players mixing a lot together with some good friendships developing between the players from different countries.

The only notable mixing I saw from the Australian tour was that the Irish, Scots & English seemed to hang out together (i.e., Farrell seemed to be always hanging around with the Irish lads).

Cuthbert seemed to be the only Welsh lad that mixed around.

How'd you know, you were there were you?

Griff wrote:Well, I'll be over the moon if none of the Welsh management are anywhere near the Lions this time. Time for the Scots and Irish to do their bit, management wise, take their turn and get the whirlwind of sh*t that accompanies that poisoned chalice Seriously, your turn.

I'd pick Joe Schmidt as head coach. He's earned it. And Vern Cotter looks to be improving Scotland too. So both of those would be a great team. When can they start? Can we start an online petition to get them elected???

Schmidtball has reached its sell by already, and Cotter hasn't won much worthy of note bar a single Top 14 with probably only the best Clermont Auvergne team we've seen. Who would want those two amateurs ahead of a born winner like Gatland?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:Well, I'll be over the moon if none of the Welsh management are anywhere near the Lions this time. Time for the Scots and Irish to do their bit, management wise, take their turn and get the whirlwind of sh*t that accompanies that poisoned chalice Seriously, your turn.

I'd pick Joe Schmidt as head coach. He's earned it. And Vern Cotter looks to be improving Scotland too. So both of those would be a great team. When can they start? Can we start an online petition to get them elected???

Schmidtball has reached its sell by already, and Cotter hasn't won much worthy of note bar a single Top 14 with probably only the best Clermont Auvergne team we've seen. Who would want those two amateurs ahead of a born winner like Gatland?

I would. Honestly. Send those two and leave us in peace.

So that's Wales, Ireland and Scotland out of the Lions then.

Looks like England will have to fly the flag alone.

Mind you, who would you replace in the current England squad with a player from another nation anyway?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:Why would you want to move North to accommodate Zebo?

Zebo is ok, but nothing special. Surprised he toured to be honest.

1) Not trying to accommodate Zebo. More like using a better player than Cuthbert or rushing back an unfit Tommy Bowe. North has played plenty on the right wing (including 3 AI tests for Wales the previous autumn).

2) Zebo was playing well. He only toured because of injury. This was despite Ireland beating Wales in the Mellinium Stadium with Zebo & Craig Gilroy on the wings.

Wales had North, Cuthbert & 1/2p as their back three, with Roberts and Davies in the centre.

Ireland also came fifth that year after losing to Italy in the final round, whilst Wales smashed England to take the title.

So, Wales (at home) lost to a team that lost away to Italy.  

As for England, was anyone calling for Mike Browne, Billy Twelvetrees  or Chris Ashton to start in the final test?

Yeah pretty embarrassing huh. But still I'm glad we went on to win our second championship in a row, rather than play like amateurs and finish fifth. BOD's form from that game onward is likely what got him dropped. It seems that you believe the criteria for getting picked on this tour was to beat Wales - unfortunately for you and Keith Wood it wasn't.

God, you seem to have the attention span of a gold fish You are the one who started banging on about Wales winning the 6Ns championships.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

+1.

There seemed to be a much better atmosphere on it as well, with the players mixing a lot together with some good friendships developing between the players from different countries.

The only notable mixing I saw from the Australian tour was that the Irish, Scots & English seemed to hang out together (i.e., Farrell seemed to be always hanging around with the Irish lads).

Cuthbert seemed to be the only Welsh lad that mixed around.

How'd you know, you were there were you?

Nah, just watched the DVD. Halfpenny and Davies seemed to be stuck in a corner on their computers anytime the camera was around.

Easy to figure out who was hanging out with who from twitter as well.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

+1.

There seemed to be a much better atmosphere on it as well, with the players mixing a lot together with some good friendships developing between the players from different countries.

The only notable mixing I saw from the Australian tour was that the Irish, Scots & English seemed to hang out together (i.e., Farrell seemed to be always hanging around with the Irish lads).

Cuthbert seemed to be the only Welsh lad that mixed around.

How'd you know, you were there were you?

Nah, just watched the DVD. Halfpenny and Davies seemed to be stuck in a corner on their computers anytime the camera was around.  

Easy to figure out who was hanging out with who from twitter as well.

You really are an authority on this topic!!

Did you watch the 3rd Test? JD2 did rather well....

Everyone did great in the 3rd test. I was very surprised after the 2nd that JD was chosen, as frankly he was poor and I felt we would need BODs defence in there again. It wasn't needed thankfully.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Everyone did great in the 3rd test. I was very surprised after the 2nd that JD was chosen, as frankly he was poor and I felt we would need BODs defence in there again. It wasn't needed thankfully.

Nice work by the coach then wouldn't you say? Some teams choke under that sort of pressure. Gatland's Lions performed when it mattered most.

Good news that Corbisiero was fit, Warburton got injured and good choice of Hibbard over Youngs. Midfield wasn't that important once we got forward dominance. You have to say awful work by the coaches in the 1st 2 tests?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good news that Corbisiero was fit, Warburton got injured and good choice of Hibbard over Youngs. Midfield wasn't that important once we got forward dominance. You have to say awful work by the coaches in the 1st 2 tests?

Forgive me, didn't the Lions win the 1st Test? You can hardly blame Gatland for not being able to select Corbisiero earlier, although I'd agree that Hibbard was always a better selection than Youngs.

Still, describing the coaches as "awful" is a bit silly.

He selected him in the first test of course. We really should have won that series 3 0 and before that 3rd it looked a really bad decision to favour JD, fortunately it wasn't an important decision in the end.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He selected him in the first test of course. We really should have won that series 3 0 and before that 3rd it looked a really bad decision to favour JD, fortunately it wasn't an important decision in the end.

I don't think it looked "really bad". Bear in mind that Jamie Roberts was returning to the XV cold, and that JD2 was his established partner in international rugby and a partnership that worked really well earlier in the tour against NSW and the Barbarian (although a pinch of salt required for that fixture). Also bear in mind that JD2 had been filling in at 12 for the first two Tests rather than playing in his preferred position.

There were perfectly reasonable grounds for the decision, whether you agree with it or not.

The selection of Phillips over Murray was the more controversial decision for my money, but because Murray isn't an Irish "legend" Keith Wood's bottom lip didn't quiver over that one so much. On rugby grounds that was a far less justifiable decision.

His defence was poor in the 2nd test in particular. We got away with thank goodness.

No 7&1/2 wrote:His defence was poor in the 2nd test in particular. We got away with thank goodness.

Agreed - he had a poor defensive game at 12 in the 2nd Test. I wouldn't have picked him at 12 for the 3rd Test, and neither did Gatland.

Anyway, we didn't get away with it in the 2nd Test, we lost.

Think BOD and JD were interchanging at 12 and 13 as well from my memory, not an excuse for him that he was more unfamiliar. Still you seem a big Gatland fan which is fair enough, I thought he made a real big meal of a poor Aus team and personally hope he doesn't get the gig this time, or learns from past mistakes.

We surely won't have to argue about JD on the next tour anyway.

RIGHT -

lets start talking about 2017 - as this was the original title

What sort of game plan do we need to play - fast off loading, or strong runners

Will it be the pack that win us this one (if they are good enough), or flyers on the wing?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think BOD and JD were interchanging at 12 and 13 as well from my memory, not an excuse for him that he was more unfamiliar. Still you seem a big Gatland fan which is fair enough, I thought he made a real big meal of a poor Aus team and personally hope he doesn't get the gig this time, or learns from past mistakes.

Well I'm happy to second that. Every coach makes mistakes and Gatland and his coaches made a fair few on that Tour.

I am a big Gatland fan. I think his coaching record is remarkable and I don't think he gets the credit he deserves (primarily from Welsh fans actually). I also don't see a better candidate for the next Tour.

They have mainly ruled themselves out, and that's what makes Riskys questions hard. I think we all know what we'd prefer to see individually and what we would see if Gatland was coach. Whoever gets it had some great young forwards to choose from, fantastic options at lock and back row in particular. Some good options at centre and some ok wings. Alot of the players should improve a great deal in 12 months as well as they are generally pretty young. I don't expect to win the tour but we should be able to pick up one test win.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:Why would you want to move North to accommodate Zebo?

Zebo is ok, but nothing special. Surprised he toured to be honest.

1) Not trying to accommodate Zebo. More like using a better player than Cuthbert or rushing back an unfit Tommy Bowe. North has played plenty on the right wing (including 3 AI tests for Wales the previous autumn).

2) Zebo was playing well. He only toured because of injury. This was despite Ireland beating Wales in the Mellinium Stadium with Zebo & Craig Gilroy on the wings.

Wales had North, Cuthbert & 1/2p as their back three, with Roberts and Davies in the centre.

Ireland also came fifth that year after losing to Italy in the final round, whilst Wales smashed England to take the title.

So, Wales (at home) lost to a team that lost away to Italy.  

As for England, was anyone calling for Mike Browne, Billy Twelvetrees  or Chris Ashton to start in the final test?

Yeah pretty embarrassing huh. But still I'm glad we went on to win our second championship in a row, rather than play like amateurs and finish fifth. BOD's form from that game onward is likely what got him dropped. It seems that you believe the criteria for getting picked on this tour was to beat Wales - unfortunately for you and Keith Wood it wasn't.

God, you seem to have the attention span of a gold fish  You are the one who started banging on about Wales winning the 6Ns championships.

Read the rest of the comment, the bit on what you and Keith wood seem to think selection criteria is based on. I can confirm for you it was more likely based on championship winning form, as opposed to fifth place finishing form.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Personally I enjoyed the 2009 tour much more. I think the games were much more exciting even if the Lions lost. I also think the Lions were better in 09 against a much better side than Australia in '13.

+1.

There seemed to be a much better atmosphere on it as well, with the players mixing a lot together with some good friendships developing between the players from different countries.

The only notable mixing I saw from the Australian tour was that the Irish, Scots & English seemed to hang out together (i.e., Farrell seemed to be always hanging around with the Irish lads).

Cuthbert seemed to be the only Welsh lad that mixed around.

How'd you know, you were there were you?

Nah, just watched the DVD. Halfpenny and Davies seemed to be stuck in a corner on their computers anytime the camera was around.  

Easy to figure out who was hanging out with who from twitter as well.

So a couple hours footage from weeks of touring you've come up with that? You're bonkers.

I wonder if the performance of the respective home nations on their summer tours will have any bearing on the selection of head coach. I suspect not & would be surprised if anyone else, other than Gats is selected.
His record speaks for itself but despite promises about a more expansive style I couldn't see it & I think his tactics are stale.

I would like a second distributor at 12 that gets the ball moving faster down the line. As good a player as Roberts is he dictates the tactics looking for contact continuously & for that reason I would not have him in the side.

Riskysports wrote:RIGHT -

lets start talking about 2017 - as this was the original title

What sort of game plan do we need to play - fast off loading, or strong runners

Will it be the pack that win us this one (if they are good enough), or flyers on the wing?

I don't think we have a pack to demolish NZ at the set piece so I would build the 2017 along the following lines:

1. The England lineout is a well oiled machine and its constituent parts are all good allrounders. On that basis I'd select Hartley, Itoje and Kruis. I think the option of using Itoje at 6 is worth a look (to accommodate one from J Gray, Henderson, AWJ or Launchbury at lock) but I'd be concerned about losing pace and mobility in the back row.

2. Whether we like it or not NZ are going to put pace on the game so I believe we need props who can usefully contribute in that regard. At present the two tightheads I'd look to are Cole and Nel (with Brookes or Lee taking the 3rd slot), and the two looseheads McGrath and Dickinson (with Marler or Jones backing up). I dearly hope Cian Healy can rediscover fitness and form.

3. I think Stander and Vunipola are the two favourites for 6 and 8 respectively, although Toby Faletau at 6 merits consideration. A fully fit Sean O'Brien wins the 7 jersey with some to spare but his fitness is a big concern. Warburton will obviously be in the reckoning and, I suspect, a favourite for the captaincy, but I think the 7 jersey could go to an outsider like Clifford, Hardie or James Davies.

4. Half backs is tricky. I like the two Welsh boys plus Connor Murray for the three options in the squad at 9, but I'm torn over options at 10. I'd want three from Biggar, Sexton, Ford, Farrell and Russell with the first three my favourites for the squad, but I'm undecided at present for the XV.

5. Centres for me will depend on how Tuilagi gets on at 12 for England (if indeed Jones uses him there), but I think Roberts, Tuilagi and Joseph are likely tourists, and probably two from Henshaw, Dunbar and Bennett. Definitely scope for bolters here: McCloskey, Scott Williams and Slade for example.

6. I like my back three to excite and offer an attacking threat, and I prioritise that above perceived defensive deficiencies. I don't believe we will shut out the All Blacks by keeping it up the jumper and relying on solid steady eddies. Hogg for me at 15, North at 11 and Watson at 14. Hold onto your hats.

Test Squad

1.McGrath 2.Hartley(c) 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Hardie 8.Vunipola 9.Webb 10.Biggar 11.North 12.Roberts 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Hogg

16.Dickinson 17.Best 18.Nel 19.AWJ 20.Faletau 21.Murray 22.Sexton 23.Tuilagi

Midweek XV

1.Healy 2.George 3.Brookes 4.J Gray 5.Launchbury 6.Henderson 7.Warburton(c) 8.Morgan 9.Davies 10.Ford 11.Zebo 12.McCloskey 13.Dunbar 14.Wade 15.Halfpenny

On current form I think the safest call is that of the back 3 North Hogg and Watson but Seymour will push them all the way if he continues his form.

I honestly think that if he can kick on from the 6 Nations then I think Rob Evans won't be far off a spot.

A lot of English fans are saying that Hartley won't even be their first choice hooker by then.

bedfordwelsh wrote:On current form I think the safest call is that of the back 3 North Hogg and Watson but Seymour will push them all the way if he continues his form.

I honestly think that if he can kick on from the 6 Nations then I think Rob Evans won't be far off a spot.

A lot of English fans are saying that Hartley won't even be their first choice hooker by then.

Given the success of the England lineout and the comments made by Jones in his favour, I don't see him being dropped. I'd take both Hartley and George with the Lions.

[quote="funnyExiledScot"]

Riskysports wrote:RIGHT -

1.McGrath 2.Hartley(c) 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Hardie 8.Vunipola 9.Webb 10.Biggar 11.North 12.Roberts 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Hogg

16.Dickinson 17.Best 18.Nel 19.AWJ 20.Faletau 21.Murray 22.Sexton 23.Tuilagi

Midweek XV

1.Healy 2.George 3.Brookes 4.J Gray 5.Launchbury 6.Henderson 7.Warburton(c) 8.Morgan 9.Davies 10.Ford 11.Zebo 12.McCloskey 13.Dunbar 14.Wade 15.Halfpenny

I like those teams for the most parts, its balanced and un biased, I'd agree with most of it bar a few calls:

1. Where's Henshaw? Comfortably the best stats in last years 6n among the centres and had a very good tourney this time round. He's also just as comfortable at 12. 13. or 15. Gonna be very tight between Tuilagi, JJ, Roberts, Henshaw and possibly some others (McCloskey,Daly,Slade,Bennett,Davies,Teo), but Dunbar seriously?
I'd say along with 2nd row centre is the most competitive position.

2. Where's Robshaw and Brown?. Consistently one the best back rows in Europe. Everyone fit I'd have 6.Robshaw 7.SOB 8.Billy.

I think after the summer, Henderson (slightly small 2nd row if paired with Itoje) and Tuilagi will be in most peoples teams.

My starting XV: 1.McGrath 2.Hartley(c) 3.Nel 4.Itoje 5.Hendo 6.Robshaw 7.SOB 8.Billy 9.Webb 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Tuilagi 13.JJ 14.Watson 15.Hogg
16.Vunipola(good impact I don't think NZ's scrum is all that so shouldnt be an issue) 17.Best 18.Cole 19.Launchbury 20.Stander 21.Murray 22.Biggar 23.Henshaw

Midweek XV: 1.Dickinson 2.George 3.Brookes 4.Kruis 5.AWJ 6.POM 7.Warburton(c) 8.Faletau 9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Fitz 12.McCloskey 13.Daly 14.(Seymour,Nowell,Williams,Earls)? 15.Brown


Captain will be interesting I'd probably go with AWJ as tour captain.

You've hit on most of my dilemma positions to be honest.

Re: Henshaw I initially had him instead of McCloskey but I felt that McCloskey would be a better direct replacement for Roberts in the XV. I am a Scot so I won't pretend to be unbiased on Dunbar, but he's been consistently good at 12 and 13 for a good while now, and was key in the Glasgow Pro12 title. Really tough call on Henshaw. He could easily make the XV with Tuilagi, neither of whom I selected for the XV. Centre is an extremely tough call.

Robshaw I debated but I believe Stander to be the better carrier and I'm a big Henderson fan in terms of brute strength. Yes, Henderson at 6 isn't the most mobile but I grouped him with Jonny Gray and Launchbury who both get about the park. I'd have no qualms should Robshaw be selected. Good player.

Brown was easier for me. Hogg is a no brainer for the squad and Halfpenny was man of the series last time and one of the best kickers in the world, if not the best. With Watson able to cover both wing and 15 and similarly Zebo, I had no trouble leaving out Brown. He's very solid and dependable, but lacks a certain dash I'm looking for.

Dunbar is a superb player and if he didn't seem to be injured every international (?!?) would be in more peoples lions team. A backline of Webb, sexton, north, Dunbar, joseph, Watson and Hogg would be my backline

As with the last tour the backrow is going to be hugely competitive and there will be some class players left behind.

Versatility will again be key with players such as Faletau, SOB and Itoje crucial as they can cover various positions which may free up another spot somewhere else in the squad.

bedfordwelsh wrote:As with the last tour the backrow is going to be hugely competitive and there will be some class players left behind.

Versatility will again be key with players such as Faletau, SOB and Itoje crucial as they can cover various positions which may free up another spot somewhere else in the squad.

since when did the abs pick players for versatilty ??

no . go full on or nothing

For what it's worth and as it stands, this is my top 3 in each position:

Dickinson, McGrath, Vunipola
George, Srauss, Baldwin
Nel, Cole, Ross
AWJ, R Gray, Itoje
J Gray, Kruis, Henderson
Warburton, Robshaw, C.Henry
Stander, Hardie, SOB
Vunipola, Felatau, Strauss
Gareth Davies, Care, Murray
Biggar, Sexton, Farrell
North, Watson, Visser
Roberts, Dunbar, Tuilagi
Joseph, Henshaw, Taylor
Bowe, Nowell, Seymour
Hogg, Brown, Liam Williams