Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

I understand and respect all the arguments against this kind of post 18 months before but the proper journalists are all having a so we might as well. It happens after every tournament.

For what it's worth I'd pick:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. J. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Faletau
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. McGrath
17. MacInally
18. Lee
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Youngs
22. Biggar
23. Halfpenny

alive555 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:As with the last tour the backrow is going to be hugely competitive and there will be some class players left behind.

Versatility will again be key with players such as Faletau, SOB and Itoje crucial as they can cover various positions which may free up another spot somewhere else in the squad.

since when did the abs pick players for versatilty ??

no . go full on or nothing

But they don't have to. The Lions are a touring party with a tough schedule of games. Injuries will happen (remember the Test Series in 2009!) and having players who can cover other positions is extremely important unless you want to take 45 players. The ability of players like Henderson and Itoje to play lock and cover 6 if needed, or someone like Slade or Farrell being able to cover 10 and 12 could well swing selection in their favour.

Can I just make a point about the Shane Williams call up, as it's getting a bit of criticism earlier in the thread. The reason he was called up for one game, and one game only, was that if they had flown a player out from home then he would have missed the game that Shane ended up playing in (due to flight time, jet lag, missing the training run, etc.) and therefore they would have had to start/bench in that game the player they were trying to save for the 3rd test (I forget who. North?). Shane playing in the midweek game was to allow them to rest the test starter and avoid an injury for the 3rd test. It was nothing to do with favouritism or bias, it was just convenience. This is why he was then jettisoned from the squad straight after than game as there was no intention for him to carry on. He was just a filler.


Back to the squads..... I feel there is potential for a much more balanced team this time. Looking at some of your teams/squads you seem to feel the same way too. There are good options from ALL home nations, whereas last time and in 2005 perhaps there was a standout team (or a better team) in the 6N and that, coupled with the coach being from that nation, meant a lopsided (some call it biased) selection. I'm not saying that Gats wouldn't pick his own again, but I do think there are more selection headaches and the potential for a fairly even representation in the stating 15 this time.

And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15. As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more. Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Not sure who? - Dunbar. Can do everything Roberts does plus he is great at making steals and offloads. Just needs to remain unbroken for a while

Now for the first time in a long time a whole bunch of scots should be in the team / Squad. and they have the best names whilst the eastern brethern are also the best groomed

Team
- ickle jonny - simply the standout lock, a leader, runs the lineout, tidies up rubbish ball, hard running, defensivly impregnable - now almost two seasons with only two missed tackles. Inspirational and the most important player Scotland have. I'd have him as captain
Didier Hoggba - despite being a real get the outstanding FB of the 6N
Nel - the props prop plus he is good in the loose
Dunbar - when he is not broken a great centre. Can be 12 or 13, can do the crashball thing but also has good hands and makes turnovers

In the squad
Dancer - he makes mistakes yes but is also capable of some delightful touches which unlock defenses
Frodo - not the quickest 9 but great leadership, good kicker and very steady with a great pass.
- not at his best this 6N but a great running centre - runs round folk does not try to run thru them.
Dickinson - fine prop - very athletic
Hardie - just a fine back rower - never seen anyone work so hard. Would have a point to prove.


Translations for the non scots
Ickle jonny = J Gray
Didier Hoggba = Stuart Hogg
Dancer = Finn Russell
Frodo = Laidlaw
= Bennett

We all tend to favour our own players - so lets see your picks for your countries players and why they should be in the squad as I have done above

Do Jonny G and Nel come as a pair?

One who never misses a tackle and one who never makes one?

Griff wrote:Can I just make a point about the Shane Williams call up, as it's getting a bit of criticism earlier in the thread.  The reason he was called up for one game, and one game only, was that if they had flown a player out from home then he would have missed the game that Shane ended up playing in (due to flight time, jet lag, missing the training run, etc.) and therefore they would have had to start/bench in that game the player they were trying to save for the 3rd test (I forget who.  North?).  Shane playing in the midweek game was to allow them to rest the test starter and avoid an injury for the 3rd test.  It was nothing to do with favouritism or bias, it was just convenience.  This is why he was then jettisoned from the squad straight after than game as there was no intention for him to carry on.  He was just a filler.


Back to the squads..... I feel there is potential for a much more balanced team this time.  Looking at some of your teams/squads you seem to feel the same way too.  There are good options from ALL home nations, whereas last time and in 2005 perhaps there was a standout team (or a better team) in the 6N and that, coupled with the coach being from that nation, meant a lopsided (some call it biased) selection.  I'm not saying that Gats wouldn't pick his own again, but I do think there are more selection headaches and the potential for a fairly even representation in the stating 15 this time.

And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15.  As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more.  Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Hallelujah - a Welshman that agrees with me! We definitely would be better off with a distributor as opposed to a bosher at 12. In fact I would prefer that in any team not just the Lions.
Wasps, my team get the ball moving along the line as quickly as possible & if you have real pace outside get the ball out there!
I think a big ball carrying centre has a place but for me preferably on the bench.

I also agree re Shane Williams as Christian Wade was also drafted in as England were playing in Argentina at the time.

I'm not picking any sort of side for the Lions until at least the end of the year as so much changes. However, having just completed an imperfect GS England I believe have the greatest capacity to improve further.

Cyril wrote:Do Jonny G and Nel come as a pair?

One who never misses a tackle and one who never makes one?

Oucha
I thought I'd have a look at the stats to prove you wrong - but Nel did miss a hatful Might well count against him

New Zealand have an outstanding lineout - I read some lineout analysis of the the various team lineouts at the World Cup and it was interesting to see that New Zealand competed for nearly every lineout (and few competed against them). It was intereseting to see that most teams didn't bother to compete (except Ireland) and their best person at stealing opposition ball was Peter O'Mahony.

Expect to see him at blindside not only for his lineout prowess, but also for his leadership and mobility. I wouldn't be surprised if he was also captain.

edit: I should have said that Peter O'Mahony is a single lift which frees up an extra body.

TJ wrote:

Cyril wrote:Do Jonny G and Nel come as a pair?

One who never misses a tackle and one who never makes one?

Oucha
I thought I'd have a look at the stats to prove you wrong - but Nel did miss a hatful   Might well count against him

To be fair, tackle statistics are a little bit unforgiving.

One of those he "missed" was when Roberts Crashed through him at full tilt from 1 meter out. Name a player in the world who can stop Roberts from that range.

Nel is a superb player and normally a great defender. To be honest the fact that Nel gets himself in a position to at least attempt a tackle makes him a better option than other props who miss them.

For example when Hogg sliced between Best and McGrath neither of them had a "missed" tackle because they didn't lay a hand on him.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over Nel being in the Lions front row. He is an incredible scrummager, is powerful with the ball in hand and his "missed" tackle statistic IMO isn't exactly a fair reflection of his defensive contributions.

I think Gatland laid out the template of how a Lions team can be successful in a modern era. He looked at the other three nations and said: "who do I need so that my Wales team can beat Australia?" He picked 15 Welsh players in the initial touring squad, and a lot (12 or 13?) in that final test, and then the best players outside Wales to give them the edge they have been lacking.

I think 2017 selection will largely come down to who the coach is and what gameplan they want to adopt. For example, if I were to take England as my start point, I would be looking for a 7 and a 12 to give us an edge, and then you might look at bringing in North and Hogg as "outstanding" players for Nowell and Brown, but if it was a toss-up between (say): Cole and Nel, Vunipola or Faletau, Youngs or Webb etc, you'd go with the England players as Gatland did with the Welsh ones in 2013. Similarly, if you started with the Welsh team you might want to bring in a hooker and a right wing, but you would choose Faletau and Webb over Vunipola and Youngs as they are more familiar with that system and the players around them.

So my Lions 23, if I was picking right now and taking England as my base, would be:

Marler
Hartley (C)
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Robshaw
Warburton
Vunipola
Youngs
Farrell
North
Roberts
Joseph
Watson
Hogg

Best
Dickinson
Nel
J Gray
O'Brien
Webb
Sexton
Nowell

The Lions next year is going to be very interesting. As a Scotsman, the two players from my country who seem to be getting the most selections appear to be Hogg and Hardie; Hogg squeezes into my starting XV, on the basis of his attacking ability, however he has a way to travel regarding his defence. Hardie, the wonderfully aggressive player that he is, wouldn't be in my XV. His stature belies the hits he puts in, but I think we have players who have better attacking potential who offer similar defensive skills.

Here is my initial stab at a starting 23, assuming everybody is fit:

1) McGrath
2) Hartley (c)
3) Nel
4) Henderson
5) Kruis
6) Itoje
7) Warburton
8) Vunipola

9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) North
12) Tuilagi
13) Slade (Wildcard)
14) Watson
15) Hogg

16) Lee
17) George
18) Dickinson
19) J. Gray
20) O'Brien
21) Webb
22) Biggar
23) JJ

I have put Itoje at 6 for a number of reasons. Firstly, I think that is his most natural position given his size and athletic gifts. Although there are several very good 6's playing for the home nations, I don't think any can pretend to be truly world class - Itoje has that potential. Secondly, we are heavily stocked at 2nd row, and Itoje at six allows me to play Henderson, a player I rate very highly. He sneaks in above J.Gray due to his superior athleticism.

Slade at 13 is an obvious wildcard. Getting the centre mix is crucial, I think Slade is the most competent ball player playing in the home nations and his ability to come in at second receiver on certain plays would give us more options than if we played Roberts/JJ, as one example. Tuilagi to provide the power.

Other aspects I considered was getting as much impact of the bench as possible - hence SOB and JJ. For that reason, I thought about excluding Biggar for Ford, but Biggar squeezes in just now.

As ever when looking at Lions teams, there are plenty of players who I could have picked and wouldn't have been overly fussed: Best or Baldwin for George, AWJ for J.Gray Roberts for Tuilagi etc etc.

robbo277 wrote:I think Gatland laid out the template of how a Lions team can be successful in a modern era. He looked at the other three nations and said: "who do I need so that my Wales team can beat Australia?" He picked 15 Welsh players in the initial touring squad, and a lot (12 or 13?) in that final test, and then the best players outside Wales to give them the edge they have been lacking.

I think Gatland hasn't 'got' what the Lions is about. Henry didn't get it either. Time to going back to only former Lions should coach/manage them. I think Martin Johnson might be a good choice to head it up (make Gatland the forwards coach if he wants him). I really don't want any non-home nations + Ireland head coach again.

Griff wrote: And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15. As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more. Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Well if it's on then I'm sure Roberts is intelligent enough to pass it wide, he is the pro player after all. If you're worried about distribution then don't pick JD2 outside him.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote: And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15. As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more. Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Well if it's on then I'm sure Roberts is intelligent enough to pass it wide, he is the pro player after all. If you're worried about distribution then don't pick JD2 outside him.

The old problem with Roberts. A highly intelligent man who plays a very one dimensional game

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote: And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15. As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more. Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Well if it's on then I'm sure Roberts is intelligent enough to pass it wide, he is the pro player after all. If you're worried about distribution then don't pick JD2 outside him.

Oh don't worry, I won't have JD2 anywhere near my team. There's many better outside centres in the 4 nations represented.

It's not just about intelligence to pass. Anyone can chuck a ball. It's the precision, timing, putting the man in space, etc. of the pass. I like a second distributor at 12. Like a bulky 10, if you will (Giteau springs to mind; Luke McAllister; Henson (!)). But not a 10 shifted to 12 just to have a distributor there (like they've done with Farrell). I know these players are few and far between but this is all just ideas, and that's what I would like.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote: And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15. As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more. Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Well if it's on then I'm sure Roberts is intelligent enough to pass it wide, he is the pro player after all. If you're worried about distribution then don't pick JD2 outside him.

The old problem with Roberts. A highly intelligent man who plays a very one dimensional game

Part of it is the coaching though. We've seen a better distributing Roberts for both Quins (must be their game plan) and Wales (since we've admitted to trying a new more open style of play this 6N). If he can further develop that between now and the Lions then maybe he'll be back in the frame for me. The other stuff he does is superb. But I find him a bit lumbering in attack. Great from close range, but if it's on and he's put in space in his 22 he won't make it to the half way line before being felled!

robbo277 wrote:I think Gatland laid out the template of how a Lions team can be successful in a modern era. He looked at the other three nations and said: "who do I need so that my Wales team can beat Australia?" He picked 15 Welsh players in the initial touring squad, and a lot (12 or 13?) in that final test, and then the best players outside Wales to give them the edge they have been lacking.

The problem is defining what "success" means. For some it's a win at any cost and Gatland's template just about delivered on that. Yet for others success is only worthy of the name if the ethos of the Lions has been upheld with 'hail fellows well met'. Let's face it the All Blacks don't do dips in form or have no strength in depth and as the premier professional team in World Rugby a scratch side like the Lions have zero chance of an upset. If the Lions manage one victory there will those looking around for Indian bookmakers in the vicinity, and spot fixing might be mentioned outside the teenage boys bathroom.

The problem is the Lions have become an invidious paradox where their best chance of winning is picking predominantly from one Test side, but that then leads to accusations of favouritism and boorish behaviour of fans such as Griff mentioned earlier. In other words the Lions concept is no longer fit for purpose and it is high time those ideals were consigned to the bin with the tours themselves.

Of course while there are gullible fans who actually believe this contest is still "sporting", their money will keep papering over the cracks and perpetuate the farce. As an Ireland supporter I want as few players selected as possible because that means fewer pieces to pick up afterwards, so I'd be very much in favour of as many English (supplemented by Welsh) in the side as possible.

alive555 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:As with the last tour the backrow is going to be hugely competitive and there will be some class players left behind.

Versatility will again be key with players such as Faletau, SOB and Itoje crucial as they can cover various positions which may free up another spot somewhere else in the squad.

since when did the abs pick players for versatilty ??

no . go full on or nothing

What has the Abs selection got to do with the Lions selection. The Lions are a touring party who won't have players on their doorstep to call up if someone takes a knock like the ABs will.

I think every tour party that has ever toured has always picked some versatility/utility player of some sorts.

The unique thing about the Lions is that they offer a great sporting occasion for the fans to get together and party. It doesn't matter who wins or who loses. No one gives a toss. Whereas if you are following your own team it hurts when you lose. The part I like most is seeing players from different nations playing together - i.e., POC with Simon Shaw or AW Jones, or BOD and Wilkinson, Woody and Martin Johnson in the same team.

I can see Davies & Roberts any old time playing together.

Also, the DVD they produced (though getting very sanitised) is fun. You just would not see anything like that from any other team.

Griff wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote: And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15. As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more. Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Well if it's on then I'm sure Roberts is intelligent enough to pass it wide, he is the pro player after all. If you're worried about distribution then don't pick JD2 outside him.

Oh don't worry, I won't have JD2 anywhere near my team. There's many better outside centres in the 4 nations represented.

It's not just about intelligence to pass. Anyone can chuck a ball. It's the precision, timing, putting the man in space, etc. of the pass. I like a second distributor at 12. Like a bulky 10, if you will (Giteau springs to mind; Luke McAllister; Henson (!)). But not a 10 shifted to 12 just to have a distributor there (like they've done with Farrell). I know these players are few and far between but this is all just ideas, and that's what I would like.

We agree on that at least.

So you're saying he can't pass? Thankfully not everyone is blind: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/24/wales-rugby-union-jamie-roberts-six-nations-2016?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=The+Breakdown+main&utm_term=158733&subid=1310838&CMP=EMCSPTEML866

Sin é wrote:The unique thing about the Lions is that they offer a great sporting occasion for the fans to get together and party. It doesn't matter who wins or who loses. No one gives a toss. Whereas if you are following your own team it hurts when you lose. The part I like most is seeing players from different nations playing together - i.e., POC with Simon Shaw or AW Jones, or BOD and Wilkinson, Woody and Martin Johnson in the same team.

I can see Davies & Roberts any old time playing together.

Also, the DVD they produced (though getting very sanitised) is fun. You just would not see anything like that from any other team.

You could not be more wrong.

Watch McGeechan before the 3rd Test against South Africa in 2009 and tell me again that no-one gives a toss whether the Lions win or lose.

The problem with trying to legislate for Lions selections is that it's a bit of a wooly 'ethos'. It's difficult to pin down the 'spirit' of the Lions and what makes it work. I'm pretty sure no one wants to go down the route of national quotas (minimum or maximum for each of its constituent parts) and hard-edged coaches are needed bring about wins. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the RC sides touted as a single entity (apart from scaring the pants off the North!).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:The unique thing about the Lions is that they offer a great sporting occasion for the fans to get together and party. It doesn't matter who wins or who loses. No one gives a toss. Whereas if you are following your own team it hurts when you lose. The part I like most is seeing players from different nations playing together - i.e., POC with Simon Shaw or AW Jones, or BOD and Wilkinson, Woody and Martin Johnson in the same team.

I can see Davies & Roberts any old time playing together.

Also, the DVD they produced (though getting very sanitised) is fun. You just would not see anything like that from any other team.

You could not be more wrong.

Watch McGeechan before the 3rd Test against South Africa in 2009 and tell me again that no-one gives a toss whether the Lions win or lose.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:The unique thing about the Lions is that they offer a great sporting occasion for the fans to get together and party. It doesn't matter who wins or who loses. No one gives a toss. Whereas if you are following your own team it hurts when you lose. The part I like most is seeing players from different nations playing together - i.e., POC with Simon Shaw or AW Jones, or BOD and Wilkinson, Woody and Martin Johnson in the same team.

I can see Davies & Roberts any old time playing together.

Also, the DVD they produced (though getting very sanitised) is fun. You just would not see anything like that from any other team.

You could not be more wrong.

Watch McGeechan before the 3rd Test against South Africa in 2009 and tell me again that no-one gives a toss whether the Lions win or lose.

Or Telfer in 97!

Cyril wrote:The problem with trying to legislate for Lions selections is that it's a bit of a wooly 'ethos'. It's difficult to pin down the 'spirit' of the Lions and what makes it work. I'm pretty sure no one wants to go down the route of national quotas (minimum or maximum for each of its constituent parts) and hard-edged coaches are needed bring about wins. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the RC sides touted as a single entity (apart from scaring the pants off the North!).

A Southern Hemisphere 'Tigers' team would be absolutely magic to watch!

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote: And to show my lack of bias, here's one that may shock: I wouldn't pick Roberts in my Lions starting 15. As much as he is a talisman for Wales, a defensive rock and leader, man of the match a number of times recently, and almost undroppable for Wales, I think between the B&I nations we can find someone more dynamic to get our very talented backline going a bit more. Not sure who yet, and to be honest since Roberts has joined quins he seems to distribute more than before so he may be back in the frame for me next season, but more of a passing, kicking, running (but not necessarily boshing) 12 would be my choice.

Well if it's on then I'm sure Roberts is intelligent enough to pass it wide, he is the pro player after all. If you're worried about distribution then don't pick JD2 outside him.

Oh don't worry, I won't have JD2 anywhere near my team. There's many better outside centres in the 4 nations represented.

It's not just about intelligence to pass. Anyone can chuck a ball. It's the precision, timing, putting the man in space, etc. of the pass. I like a second distributor at 12. Like a bulky 10, if you will (Giteau springs to mind; Luke McAllister; Henson (!)). But not a 10 shifted to 12 just to have a distributor there (like they've done with Farrell). I know these players are few and far between but this is all just ideas, and that's what I would like.

We agree on that at least.

So you're saying he can't pass? Thankfully not everyone is blind: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/24/wales-rugby-union-jamie-roberts-six-nations-2016?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=The+Breakdown+main&utm_term=158733&subid=1310838&CMP=EMCSPTEML866

Mikey, you'd be a much better poster if you cut out your childish retorts. Somewhere lurking behind that keyboard is a decent, knowledgable rugby poster. We just rarely see it because you're always so angry and offended. Stop taking offence just because people don't agree with you. I'm blind, apprently, because I want a better distributor than Roberts? No need for it. I know you're young, but act like you're at least old enough to use the internet.

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:The unique thing about the Lions is that they offer a great sporting occasion for the fans to get together and party. It doesn't matter who wins or who loses. No one gives a toss. Whereas if you are following your own team it hurts when you lose. The part I like most is seeing players from different nations playing together - i.e., POC with Simon Shaw or AW Jones, or BOD and Wilkinson, Woody and Martin Johnson in the same team.

I can see Davies & Roberts any old time playing together.

Also, the DVD they produced (though getting very sanitised) is fun. You just would not see anything like that from any other team.

You could not be more wrong.

Watch McGeechan before the 3rd Test against South Africa in 2009 and tell me again that no-one gives a toss whether the Lions win or lose.

Or Telfer in 97!

Quite right.

I think Sin e's version of "This is your Everest boys" would be akin to "This is your trip to the shops boys, doesn't really matter what happens provided you take Irish "legends" with you and treat them like the Gods they are".

tigertattie wrote:

Cyril wrote:The problem with trying to legislate for Lions selections is that it's a bit of a wooly 'ethos'. It's difficult to pin down the 'spirit' of the Lions and what makes it work. I'm pretty sure no one wants to go down the route of national quotas (minimum or maximum for each of its constituent parts) and hard-edged coaches are needed bring about wins. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the RC sides touted as a single entity (apart from scaring the pants off the North!).

A Southern Hemisphere 'Tigers' team would be absolutely magic to watch!

1.Beast 2.B Du Plessis 3.Franks 4.Retallick 5.Whitelock 6.Kaino 7.Pocock 8.Read 9.Smith 10.Cruden 11.Savea 12.SBW 13.Fekitoa 14.Folau 15.Le Roux

16.J Du Plessis 17.Strauss 18.Kepu 19.Etzebeth 20.Vermeulen 21.Genia 22.Barrett 23.B Smith

You'd have Ayerza as the token surely?

Nice team Funnyexiled......would perhaps need some loosehead cover on the bench though

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:The unique thing about the Lions is that they offer a great sporting occasion for the fans to get together and party. It doesn't matter who wins or who loses. No one gives a toss. Whereas if you are following your own team it hurts when you lose. The part I like most is seeing players from different nations playing together - i.e., POC with Simon Shaw or AW Jones, or BOD and Wilkinson, Woody and Martin Johnson in the same team.

I can see Davies & Roberts any old time playing together.

Also, the DVD they produced (though getting very sanitised) is fun. You just would not see anything like that from any other team.

You could not be more wrong.

Watch McGeechan before the 3rd Test against South Africa in 2009 and tell me again that no-one gives a toss whether the Lions win or lose.

The coaches and players care (though I bet most players would prefer to win something with their own team like a 6Ns Grand Slam, Rugby Championship or World Cup (even possibly a Heineken Cup). I bet Gatland would prefer to beat New Zealand with Wales than with the Lions!

It also looks good for any budding pundits cv to be able to put Lions caps up on the screen.

The fans don't really give a toss who wins or loses - they will party anyway. Some fans follow the Lions for their club games and never bother going to a Test match. They are there for the craic.

I like the Lions because its interesting to see the likes of BOD & Wilkinson on the same team for instance.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:The unique thing about the Lions is that they offer a great sporting occasion for the fans to get together and party. It doesn't matter who wins or who loses. No one gives a toss. Whereas if you are following your own team it hurts when you lose. The part I like most is seeing players from different nations playing together - i.e., POC with Simon Shaw or AW Jones, or BOD and Wilkinson, Woody and Martin Johnson in the same team.

I can see Davies & Roberts any old time playing together.

Also, the DVD they produced (though getting very sanitised) is fun. You just would not see anything like that from any other team.

You could not be more wrong.

Watch McGeechan before the 3rd Test against South Africa in 2009 and tell me again that no-one gives a toss whether the Lions win or lose.

Or Telfer in 97!

Quite right.

I think Sin e's version of "This is your Everest boys" would be akin to "This is your trip to the shops boys, doesn't really matter what happens provided you take Irish "legends" with you and treat them like the Gods they are".

Its decent money for the boys to spend down in the shop nowadays. Mind you, they are wrecked afterwards.

Sin

Have to disagree to an extent, I went to both 2009 and 2013 tours, and although the ethos and party atmosphere is a huge draw, it's also a chance of being competitive with 1 of the big 3. It's a chance to put one over on them and 2013 was far more fun than 2009 IMO.

Test 3 in Aus was as good as it gets, before KO the chat was about Gatland favouring lesser Welsh players, and the furore from a certain few Irish fans of dropping BOD (it wasn't saw as a huge issue in Aus as it was in the UK/Ireland), then post game everyone left the stadium well happy, despite not seeing their heroes and cheering on a Welsh heavy side the Lions had done their job!

The beauty of the lions is the unified nature, leaving your nationalistic views bac home and cheering on everyone in red, as a fan of the red, not the individual players!

PS I'd suggest those who go to club games and not tests do so because of logistics of travel, finances etc

Fanster, are you Welsh?

He's a 'Londoner of Welsh heritage'

Cyril wrote:He's a 'Londoner of Welsh heritage'

A Cockney who once ate a leek?

Cyril wrote:He's a 'Londoner of Welsh heritage'

Who does he support in England v Wales?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Cyril wrote:He's a 'Londoner of Welsh heritage'

A Cockney who once ate a leek?

So delighted when all those English players with Welsh heritage (eg North, Cuthbert) make the Lions?

I have noticed one or two people putting Half Penny in their team/squad.

Is he even playing yet or is he still injured?

I do not understand why people will put some one like HalfPenny in their team when they are not even playing due to injurie.

Maj,

Maybe it's because the Lions are not playing tomorrow so we can pick who we like.

Hogg at 15 for me btw.

As Griff says, it depends on whether we're picking now on in a year's time. Today's 'bolters' may be established in 12 months. That's why I'm pretty excited about where England might be soon.

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Cyril wrote:He's a 'Londoner of Welsh heritage'

A Cockney who once ate a leek?

So delighted when all those English players with Welsh heritage (eg North, Cuthbert) make the Lions?

Are you being racist? hahahaha

Not quite correct though, I am a londoner, but nowhere near a cockney! I have Welsh heritage, and in the Rugby context i'd have to say I'd support Wales v England. Football however would be a different story, and i'd support England v Wales.

I had a confused childhood of rugby loving mother and football loving father...

But yes I'm happy to be called Welsh, as in I'm a Welsh supporter.

Why is that Sin?

Fanster, because there is every chance you enjoyed the Aus Lions Tour because Wales won it

Sin é wrote:Fanster, because there is every chance you enjoyed the Aus Lions Tour because Wales won it

hahaha

On the contrary, while on tour national bias was dropped, I even sang 'God save the queen' in a bar in Melbourne...

Just to contextualise the situation, all anthems were sung in that bar, one by one. God save the queen was last up, and it was very frustrating to see Welsh, Scottish and Irish fans all bale out after singing (or trying to) the other 3!

I mean it's a bit easier for me lol

Fanster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Fanster, because there is every chance you enjoyed the Aus Lions Tour because Wales won it

hahaha

On the contrary, while on tour national bias was dropped, I even sang 'God save the queen' in a bar in Melbourne...

Just to contextualise the situation, all anthems were sung in that bar, one by one. God save the queen was last up, and it was very frustrating to see Welsh, Scottish and Irish fans all bale out after singing (or trying to) the other 3!

I mean it's a bit easier for me lol

I can understand you being frustrated that the Welsh, Scots & Northern Irish had a problem singing their own national anthem!

I think I might be in the minority a bit here but I honestly don't give a flying feck what national team the players play for, for me when they play for the lions I support them as that.

I have been extremely lucky to go on 4 Lions tours 97 and being the best but they have all been great for their own reasons.

England dominated the 97 and 05 tours in terms of players from that Country but it didn't bother me on bit overall.

Fanster wrote:Sin

Have to disagree to an extent, I went to both 2009 and 2013 tours, and although the ethos and party atmosphere is a huge draw, it's also a chance of being competitive with 1 of the big 3. It's a chance to put one over on them and 2013 was far more fun than 2009 IMO.

Therein lies a lot of what's wrong with the Lions concept. Far too many fans dismiss their own country's chances of being competitive against 1 of the big 3, as though a bunch of strangers thrown together would be any better. The continuation of the Lions perpetuates this defeatist attitude and the logical corollary is for those that support it should really be looking to scrap the home nations altogether in favour of a UK side just like the Olympics requirement.

You have to love the hypocrisy of the media who complain about how far the NH teams are behind their SH counterparts at the RWC and then hype up the Lions tours that helps to keep them there.

Sin é wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Cyril wrote:He's a 'Londoner of Welsh heritage'

A Cockney who once ate a leek?

So delighted when all those English players with Welsh heritage (eg North, Cuthbert) make the Lions?

"Heritage" ?? bit like Kiwi Irishmen is it?

Fanster wrote:Sin

...............

The beauty of the lions is the unified nature, leaving your nationalistic views bac home and cheering on everyone in red, as a fan of the red, not the individual players!.................

I disagree with this. Seeing worthy players left out because they are not the coaches national players puts me right off. Gatlands selections ruined the tour for me - not just not giving the scots a game although that ha been an issue but not actually seeing the best team we could put out there.

The one that really still rankles is Jason White not getting a game a couple of tours ago - that was Woodward IIRC

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nice team Funnyexiled......would perhaps need some loosehead cover on the bench though

Nah, Dickinson will break Franks and Du Plessis so I've suggested they go for a third option.

I hadn't actually thought of other SH teams. Nadolo could probably get onto the wing, and move Folau to fullback. Imhoff would be close and Ayerza probably is worth a shout on the bench.

Not actually a stellar cast of loosehead props in SH rugby.