The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion

by Pot Hale Sat 16 Jul 2016, 1:18 am

First topic message reminder :

We've had the discussion on how does the PRO12 move forward for much of last season.

Towards the end of the season, PR012 CEO, Martin Anayi gave several media interviews on his own, and with PRO 12 chairman, Gerald Davies, on where the PRO12 needs to go to cope with changes in rugby within Six Nations and globally.

Anayi and Davies identified and acknowledged a number of the issues raised by PRO clubs CEOs and fans including increase in TV monies, match-day attendances, marketing, standard of refereeing, season structure and test window matches, scheduling of season matches/kick-off times including Sunday games, European competitions, player welfare/concussion, growing "event" weekends, etc.

Anayi and Davies met with PRO12 CEOs over the last season to discuss issues and get feedback on a number of proposals that would mark out the future for the PRO 12 and its member unions.

From various media interviews and reports - some unsubstantiated - a number of key decisions are being considered by PRO 12 and its 12 member clubs along with their representative organisations and unions. In summary, these would appear to include:

Changes to season scheduling to make it more accessible, consistent, and appealing to fans across the four unions territories starting from next season 2016/17.
Further investment in a referee development programme to deal with issues/perceptions of bias and neutrality for league fixtures
Stronger and more localised marketing and promotion of league games by the PRO12 and by the individual clubs to attract fans to games and make it more appealing to broadcasters.
More promotion and stronger branding/marketing of games by TV partners
Changing the structure of the league from home & away 22 games to a conference/pool structure that can accommodate more teams in the future from other unions/territories e.g. North America and South Africa, with East Coast of America being the first target to develop a franchise with operational and coaching expertise being provided by the four unions.
Development of Big Event Weekends to drive crowd numbers, create a more appealing product for TV companies/sponsors, and generate more revenues for the PRO12
Reduce number of games played during season and re-strucure so that no "league" games are played during the test windows in November and Feb/March
Consequently, this would allow a greater proportion of league games to have test players involved and increase quality of product.
During test windows, the PRO CEOs want rugby to continue, and a revised development competition is being proposed for these periods for development of academy and young players within squads not involved in test rugby. This may involve changes to the British & Irish Cup and the Anglo-Wlesh Cup. One report indicates that Premier Rugby may be interested in discussing the creation of a British & Irish development cup to replace the current AW Cup that would attract increased sponsorship and TV money than currently.

It's clear that changes need to occur for the PRO12. The current structure and set-up is neither sufficient nor sustainable. The most recent comments on this from the CEO of the IRFU in publishing their annual report indicate this clearly, and what changes need to occur. He also commented on the plans to develop a franchise in the US.

The potential for the development of a B&I league has been regularly discussed on 606v2, but for the purposes of this topic, it's not being included as the Premiership has commitments for the next 6-7 years on its TV deals that would not countenance such a move.

Feel free to comment/dispute/argue on what is being proposed - any errors are entirely mine.

by Welly Fri 26 Aug 2016, 2:39 pm

wolfball wrote:
Welly wrote:
wolfball wrote:
Welly wrote:The super rugby structure has not been working well not at all, just need to look at SH rugby forums to see that Super Rugby schedule is a mess.

Anyway sounds like the Top 14 is eyeing up France mainly Toulon is eyeing up taking over a club and putting it in the pro rugby league (in the MLS type of style) if the other clubs follows than Super rugby and pro12 rugby will struggle to expand into it racing already own a club in France.

SR is profitable, it is expanding and it's purpose (to keep SH national teams as the best in the world) has largely been maintained. Of course rugby's schedule is a mess, but it is everywhere #globalseason. So not sure why it isn't working.

The top 14 is eyeing france?? Confused. If you meant the US, well I am sure they are, its the big shiny toy in our hemisphere. But if Toulon's owners invest in a franchise in the US, doesn't mean that there is a US team in the top14. Just means business men have diversified their portfolio. Top14 is so inward looking, I find it hard to imagine, even more so than the english, wanting legit foreign teams in their league. Pro12 is already an international league, the structural barriers to entry are lower.

You mean the Super rugby that is looking on getting rid of 2 teams? The global season isn't the issue with Super rugby ATM it is poor planning by SANZAR.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/super-rugby-australia-south-africa-to-lose-one-team-each-under-new-proposal-20160825-gr0tac.html

No it sounds like Toulon are eyeing up a club and putting them into the Pro rugby league.
http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/boudjellal-chases-the-american-dream-68460

Ah those are helpful links, cheers. The latter link is more worrying, the feeder model is a direct threat to any US franchise into the PRO12.

Yeh sorry should of posted it in the first reply. Def clears up what i tried to say.

Yeh IF Racing and Toulon do get clubs in the USA Pro rugby i can see others following in which case they will def try and stop any franchises from any league happening. TBF it is a clever way of going about it (IF you have the money).

by marty2086 Fri 26 Aug 2016, 3:01 pm

Welly wrote:
No it sounds like Toulon are eyeing up a club and putting them into the Pro rugby league.
http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/boudjellal-chases-the-american-dream-68460

This is something the the Pro12 unions should be doing, especially the Irish and Italians should be looking at.

It offers a great chance to develop young talent, while keeping them in house as too many go without game time for long periods.

by marty2086 Fri 26 Aug 2016, 3:25 pm

PlanetRugby piece on Pedrie Wannenburg and his thoughts in rugby in the US

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/wannenburg-rugby-in-the-usa-primed-for-lift-off/

by wolfball Fri 26 Aug 2016, 3:36 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Welly wrote:
No it sounds like Toulon are eyeing up a club and putting them into the Pro rugby league.
http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/boudjellal-chases-the-american-dream-68460

This is something the the Pro12 unions should be doing, especially the Irish and Italians should be looking at.

It offers a great chance to develop young talent, while keeping them in house as too many go without game time for long periods.

I don't think we have the money. I mean, it would be what, 1M a year to set up a US feeder club minimum? So we get may need to get rid of the wolfhounds, cut wages for the provinces? I think its a good idea largely and in the long run as it would help make the Pro12 grow and be more financially competitive, but I struggle to imagine the IRFU engaging the US like that as their short/medium term priorities are different to the likes of Toulon's. I hope I'm wrong though.

by marty2086 Fri 26 Aug 2016, 3:51 pm

If Im not mistaken the IRFU had 7/8m surplus at the end of the 14/15 financial year so they have some money to play with. The WRU has cleared the debt for the national stadium. SRU have generated some cash from the BT sponsorship deal

It also doesn't have to be a full commitment either, NYCFC that Man City own is just a majority shareholding and they have the likes of the Yankees as investors. Im sure there are a few Irish American businessmen who would invest or even someone Irish businesses working in the US.

The players don't have to be new players, I'm talking about players who are under contract already who aren't getting game time. From an Ulster point of view, we do crap in the B&I Cup every year and our young guys play a few group games and not much else so there are players whose development is stunted. Many either leave the game or drift around the RFU Championship or fall down to the AIL

by Welly Fri 26 Aug 2016, 3:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:If Im not mistaken the IRFU had 7/8m surplus at the end of the 14/15 financial year so they have some money to play with. The WRU has cleared the debt for the national stadium. SRU have generated some cash from the BT sponsorship deal

It also doesn't have to be a full commitment either, NYCFC that Man City own is just a majority shareholding and they have the likes of the Yankees as investors. Im sure there are a few Irish American businessmen who would invest or even someone Irish businesses working in the US.

The players don't have to be new players, I'm talking about players who are under contract already who aren't getting game time. From an Ulster point of view, we do crap in the B&I Cup every year and our young guys play a few group games and not much else so there are players whose development is stunted. Many either leave the game or drift around the RFU Championship or fall down to the AIL

Yeh i feel a few AP clubs could do this as well. Sending the likes of Morris, Earle, Ludlam etc to the USA to play summer rugby how it would work i don't know. But Wasps, Saracens and Bath have the owners to do it.

And IRFU owned team in Chicago, Boston or New York makes sense from a marketing perspective.

Although id the French really are hot on the idea then the sooner others get involved the easier it will be.

by marty2086 Fri 26 Aug 2016, 4:04 pm

Exactly, the RFU has already invested in US Rugbys commercial arm Rugby International Marketing

They say

Created by USA Rugby, Rugby International Marketing is a unique "for profit" commercial entity that will build a strong revenue generation team representing USA Rugby's current commercial rights and developing new revenue streams to fund the game. The mission of Rugby International Marketing is to provide incremental financial resources to USA Rugby by utilizing third-party capital in an entrepreneurially driven, for-profit company that leverages the commercial opportunities available to USA Rugby. The Rugby Channel is a subsidiary of Rugby International Marketing.

And the RFUs statement about it said

The Rugby Football Union (RFU) will help grow rugby commercially in the United States after becoming a minority shareholder and strategic partner in USA Rugby’s new commercial subsidiary, Rugby International Marketing (RIM).

Rugby International Marketing is the new commercial arm of USA Rugby, representing its commercial rights but also exploring new revenue streams to support the development of rugby in the USA.

This includes international events, such as Rugby World Cup Sevens 2018 to be played in the San Francisco Bay Area, sponsorship, digital, and broadcast opportunities.

USA Rugby’s unique, new business model aims to accelerate the commercialisation and development of the sport in the US by investing the revenue back into the game.

The RFU will provide strategic advice on how to develop USA Rugby’s commercial rights in the world’s largest sports market. Rugby is now the fastest growing team sport in America with participation numbers in excess of one million and their teams becoming increasingly competitive globally.

USA Rugby’s recent success on the world stage is testament to its improved standing in the global game. Last season, the Eagles claimed their maiden HSBC World Rugby Sevens Series tournament win at the Marriott London Sevens and both the men’s and women’s team have qualified for the 2016 Rio Olympics.

Rugby World Cup 2015 will mark the USA’s seventh appearance in rugby’s showcase tournament since the first in 1987.

The RFU’s partnership with RIM follows the highly successful Rugby World Cup 2015 IMPACT Legacy Unity project, which has seen the union investing time and resource in developing rugby in 17 countries across Europe in partnership with Rugby Europe, World Rugby and UK Sport. This work has been applauded by the UK Government.

RFU CEO, Ian Ritchie, said: “We have had another record year financially and we anticipate this investment in rugby in the USA will have a beneficial effect on rugby in England, the US and across the world, while not diluting our investment and strategic ambitions for rugby in England.

"The RFU’s financial returns as a partner in RIM will be reinvested back into the game in England. Investing in the world’s largest sporting market makes a great deal of sense and we look forward to working with USA Rugby.”

USA Rugby CEO Nigel Melville said: “We are delighted to have made this mutually beneficial agreement with the RFU. Their expertise and guidance will help to ensure that we further commercially develop rugby in the USA. RIM will help us generate new revenue streams that will support the continued development of the game in the USA.”

The RFU will have no involvement in, or influence over USA Rugby’s governance or structure, and the financial returns for the RFU will be reinvested back into the game in England.

The RFU’s investment has been welcomed by World Rugby, who themselves continue to be committed to the ongoing development of rugby in the US, along with other rugby nations also supportive of the innovative approach aimed to help grow rugby in an important market.

by Welly Fri 26 Aug 2016, 4:08 pm

Yep a very smart move by the RFU.

by marty2086 Fri 26 Aug 2016, 4:12 pm

Sports and live tv is increasing in value for networks across the globe because of the effect streaming is having, WWE switched their Smackdown show to a live one because the network wanted more live tv and this is part of the reasoning

The move reflects a growing desire by TV networks to find more ways to air content that needs to be seen as it airs, rather than days or weeks later via a DVR or video on demand. Networks like NBC and Fox have turned live broadcasts of favorite Broadway plays into high-rated events, and many broadcast and cable outlets have placed more emphasis on securing rights to top sports events like the Olympics or the NCAA men’s basketball championships.

Viewers who tune in to these live “spectaculars” can’t zap the commercials that support the programs, and marketers seem willing to pay a premium to appear in such stuff. Last season, NBC even ran a live, weekly program in which Neil Patrick Harris attempted zany stunts, did musical numbers and clowned around with celebrity guests.

by wolfball Fri 26 Aug 2016, 4:21 pm

marty2086 wrote:If Im not mistaken the IRFU had 7/8m surplus at the end of the 14/15 financial year so they have some money to play with. The WRU has cleared the debt for the national stadium. SRU have generated some cash from the BT sponsorship deal

It also doesn't have to be a full commitment either, NYCFC that Man City own is just a majority shareholding and they have the likes of the Yankees as investors. Im sure there are a few Irish American businessmen who would invest or even someone Irish businesses working in the US.

The players don't have to be new players, I'm talking about players who are under contract already who aren't getting game time. From an Ulster point of view, we do crap in the B&I Cup every year and our young guys play a few group games and not much else so there are players whose development is stunted. Many either leave the game or drift around the RFU Championship or fall down to the AIL

I'm convinced! I just don't know if the IRFU is dynamic enough to jump on this in time. I can imagine the inroom fighting ("well why not add better funding for Ballinrobe RFC, rather than giving it to the yanks")...

by marty2086 Fri 26 Aug 2016, 4:28 pm

wolfball wrote:
marty2086 wrote:If Im not mistaken the IRFU had 7/8m surplus at the end of the 14/15 financial year so they have some money to play with. The WRU has cleared the debt for the national stadium. SRU have generated some cash from the BT sponsorship deal

It also doesn't have to be a full commitment either, NYCFC that Man City own is just a majority shareholding and they have the likes of the Yankees as investors. Im sure there are a few Irish American businessmen who would invest or even someone Irish businesses working in the US.

The players don't have to be new players, I'm talking about players who are under contract already who aren't getting game time. From an Ulster point of view, we do crap in the B&I Cup every year and our young guys play a few group games and not much else so there are players whose development is stunted. Many either leave the game or drift around the RFU Championship or fall down to the AIL

I'm convinced! I just don't know if the IRFU is dynamic enough to jump on this in time. I can imagine the inroom fighting ("well why not add better funding for Ballinrobe RFC, rather than giving it to the yanks")...

I think that's a huge problem in rugby at times, its very inwards looking when it comes to revenue generation and doesn't always see the potential outside of its own bubble whether that be the sport as a whole, clubs or unions.

by Sin é Sat 27 Aug 2016, 12:57 pm

Sounds like the RFU are contributing marketing expertise.

There is absolutely no way that the IRFU would start franchises in the US. They would never get permission from World Rugby or Rugby USA!. What I suspect they have in mind is providing expertise and help in setting up the franchise - stuff like providing coaches - for example Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good one as he would be very familiar with both US and European Rugby. Other stuff they could do is send out experienced players coming up to retirement (for example, players like Peter Stringer or Donnacha O'Callaghan who weren't first choice for Munster but still have a lot to give).

Worth watching this recent video of ROG, Sexton & Rory Best at a fund raising event in New York where they also gave some coaching sessions. The dinner raised $160,000 dollars for Crumlin Children's Hospital!

http://canyoncts.com/index.php/cmrf-rugby/

by doctor_grey Sat 27 Aug 2016, 1:23 pm

Sin é wrote:Sounds like the RFU are contributing marketing expertise.

There is absolutely no way that the IRFU would start franchises in the US. They would never get permission from World Rugby or Rugby USA!. What I suspect they have in mind is providing expertise and help in setting up the franchise - stuff like providing coaches - for example Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good one as he would be very familiar with both US and European Rugby. Other stuff they could do is send out experienced players coming up to retirement (for example, players like Peter Stringer or Donnacha O'Callaghan who weren't first choice for Munster but still have a lot to give).

Worth watching this recent video of ROG, Sexton & Rory Best at a fund raising event in New York where they also gave some coaching sessions. The dinner raised $160,000 dollars for Crumlin Children's Hospital!

http://canyoncts.com/index.php/cmrf-rugby/

It's an odd thing. The Children's Medical Research Foundation is pretty well regarded in medical circles. Yet, this event was barely publicised over here amongst the New York area medical community. Seems like a good event and they did pull some good money.

The funny thing about the video is that a lot of it was shot on Randall's Island, the site of what had been the psychiatric hospital for the most dangerous criminals in America. There is still a psych hospital but the inmates are less dangerous and a bit......sedated. Randall's is located in the East River between Manhattan, Queens, and The Bronx. Over the years Randall's has been turned into a terrific NYC park. Fields, many with artificial turf (to survive NYC winters) for a variety of sports. Playing there regularly in the late spring and early autumn are great, surrounded by water with up close views of Manhattan. Playing there in early spring and late autumn is like the nether reaches of hell. Constant wind off the water (it is a small island) with temps near freezing. No wonder the Props in the New York area all know each other: They pile up on each other at the first ruck and stay there for 80 minutes whilst the rest of us freeze our buns off.

by A Simply Mesmeric Try Sat 27 Aug 2016, 1:29 pm

doctor_grey wrote:No wonder the Props in the New York area all know each other: They pile up on each other at the first ruck and stay there for 80 minutes whilst the rest of us freeze our buns off.

by Guest Sun 28 Aug 2016, 1:54 pm

"World Rugby backs PRO12 expansion to US"

PRO12

by Welly Sun 28 Aug 2016, 3:12 pm

World rugby isn't the issue it will be how much USA rugby has potentially invested into the PRO rugby IMO.

by Guest Sun 28 Aug 2016, 4:01 pm

World Rugby isn't an issue, but World Rugby recognises the huge potential the US market presents. Not just for PRO12, but for World Rugby itself. How that translates we will find out.

US investment is crucial, as is moving the 6N's dates. I think the US will invest. I'm not convinced the 6N's will budge. The RFU and IRFU are they only two Unions refusing to budge, apparently. The issue is the effect changing the date will have on Clubs/Regions/Provinces who rent out stadiums. Not having access to the stadiums due to the change of dates.

by doctor_grey Sun 28 Aug 2016, 4:12 pm

Welly wrote: World rugby isn't the issue it will be how much USA rugby has potentially invested into the PRO rugby IMO.

It's hard to tell. Their pro Rugby league has teams in California, Colorado, and Ohio. Nothing on the east coast, which might enable one or two Pro12 teams to take root there. And what about Super Rugby? Super Rugby are making noises about locating at team in southern California.

I don't think USA Rugby is a strong organisation. I doubt they have a real long term plan, but would likely salivate at the thought of the money and attention which could come from having teams in two of the four major Rugby leagues globally.

by Pot Hale Sun 28 Aug 2016, 4:44 pm

That's a strong vote of confidence by Gosper nonetheless.

by Sin é Mon 29 Aug 2016, 12:16 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:Sounds like the RFU are contributing marketing expertise.

There is absolutely no way that the IRFU would start franchises in the US. They would never get permission from World Rugby or Rugby USA!. What I suspect they have in mind is providing expertise and help in setting up the franchise - stuff like providing coaches - for example Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good one as he would be very familiar with both US and European Rugby. Other stuff they could do is send out experienced players coming up to retirement (for example, players like Peter Stringer or Donnacha O'Callaghan who weren't first choice for Munster but still have a lot to give).

Worth watching this recent video of ROG, Sexton & Rory Best at a fund raising event in New York where they also gave some coaching sessions. The dinner raised $160,000 dollars for Crumlin Children's Hospital!

http://canyoncts.com/index.php/cmrf-rugby/
It's an odd thing. The Children's Medical Research Foundation is pretty well regarded in medical circles. Yet, this event was barely publicised over here amongst the New York area medical community. Seems like a good event and they did pull some good money.

I think maybe it was aimed at Irish expats and Irish Americans as it was fund raising for an Irish Children's Hospital.

I think people don't realise how strong the ties are between the US and Ireland. Ireland has a reputation for US companies locating in Ireland for tax reasons, but a little known fact is that Irish companies in the US employ more people than US companies in Ireland. As well as that, Ireland exports about 30bn of goods to US compared to about 19bn to UK which most people think is Ireland's biggest market.

by kingelderfield Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:22 am

I'd rather see the home grown US PRO Rugby League expand as they've always said they intend to.

A global season maybe the way to provide greater international opportunity and either WR or individual Unions or competitions may want to become developmental partners, however ultimately the US needs to develop its own professional competitions without direct overseas interference or competition.

by VinceWLB Mon 29 Aug 2016, 10:43 am

This could be a huge boost for the Pro 12, much better prospect than London teams joining imo. Could it happen as early as next season?

by doctor_grey Mon 29 Aug 2016, 1:59 pm

Sin é wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:Sounds like the RFU are contributing marketing expertise.

There is absolutely no way that the IRFU would start franchises in the US. They would never get permission from World Rugby or Rugby USA!. What I suspect they have in mind is providing expertise and help in setting up the franchise - stuff like providing coaches - for example Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good one as he would be very familiar with both US and European Rugby. Other stuff they could do is send out experienced players coming up to retirement (for example, players like Peter Stringer or Donnacha O'Callaghan who weren't first choice for Munster but still have a lot to give).

Worth watching this recent video of ROG, Sexton & Rory Best at a fund raising event in New York where they also gave some coaching sessions. The dinner raised $160,000 dollars for Crumlin Children's Hospital!

http://canyoncts.com/index.php/cmrf-rugby/
It's an odd thing. The Children's Medical Research Foundation is pretty well regarded in medical circles. Yet, this event was barely publicised over here amongst the New York area medical community. Seems like a good event and they did pull some good money.

I think maybe it was aimed at Irish expats and Irish Americans as it was fund raising for an Irish Children's Hospital.

I think people don't realise how strong the ties are between the US and Ireland. Ireland has a reputation for US companies locating in Ireland for tax reasons, but a little known fact is that Irish companies in the US employ more people than US companies in Ireland. As well as that, Ireland exports about 30bn of goods to US compared to about 19bn to UK which most people think is Ireland's biggest market.

Thanks for the info, mate. I know there is a close relationship between Ireland and the US, but I certainly didn't know about the trade info. I would have always presumed UK was the largest trade partner.

I guess you must be right, the fund raiser was aimed at the Irish expat or diaspora communities. I knew Sexton was over in NYC participating in a couple of youth skills sessions. But had no idea his visit was also connected to the fund raising. Seems like they must have had a great day for it.

I still like the idea of Pro12 teams playing on the east coast. I think it will take a longer time for the US pro league to grow on its own. This would give more cache to the sport, being connected to a major league. But I don't like putting them in the south or west coast. I understand Vancouver, in concept - it is a very British city, and has moderate winter weather. But Texas?????? Gak.

by wolfball Mon 29 Aug 2016, 3:32 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:Sounds like the RFU are contributing marketing expertise.

There is absolutely no way that the IRFU would start franchises in the US. They would never get permission from World Rugby or Rugby USA!. What I suspect they have in mind is providing expertise and help in setting up the franchise - stuff like providing coaches - for example Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good one as he would be very familiar with both US and European Rugby. Other stuff they could do is send out experienced players coming up to retirement (for example, players like Peter Stringer or Donnacha O'Callaghan who weren't first choice for Munster but still have a lot to give).

Worth watching this recent video of ROG, Sexton & Rory Best at a fund raising event in New York where they also gave some coaching sessions. The dinner raised $160,000 dollars for Crumlin Children's Hospital!

http://canyoncts.com/index.php/cmrf-rugby/
It's an odd thing. The Children's Medical Research Foundation is pretty well regarded in medical circles. Yet, this event was barely publicised over here amongst the New York area medical community. Seems like a good event and they did pull some good money.

I think maybe it was aimed at Irish expats and Irish Americans as it was fund raising for an Irish Children's Hospital.

I think people don't realise how strong the ties are between the US and Ireland. Ireland has a reputation for US companies locating in Ireland for tax reasons, but a little known fact is that Irish companies in the US employ more people than US companies in Ireland. As well as that, Ireland exports about 30bn of goods to US compared to about 19bn to UK which most people think is Ireland's biggest market.
Thanks for the info, mate. I know there is a close relationship between Ireland and the US, but I certainly didn't know about the trade info. I would have always presumed UK was the largest trade partner.

I guess you must be right, the fund raiser was aimed at the Irish expat or diaspora communities. I knew Sexton was over in NYC participating in a couple of youth skills sessions. But had no idea his visit was also connected to the fund raising. Seems like they must have had a great day for it.

I still like the idea of Pro12 teams playing on the east coast. I think it will take a longer time for the US pro league to grow on its own. This would give more cache to the sport, being connected to a major league. But I don't like putting them in the south or west coast. I understand Vancouver, in concept - it is a very British city, and has moderate winter weather. But Texas?????? Gak.

Sin e you are right on the trade, but I think you are overstating the irish/US relationship somewhat. As an irishman who spent 10 years in the US, many people claim irish heritage of course, but in the same way many have german,swedish,english,russian heritage. If you took st patricks day out of the equation, I don't think the US/Irish connection would feel anywhere as strong and even then americans and st patricks day is a Poopie.

as an example, in the recent irish 6nations win which landed on a St Patricks day. I was in the irish pub I usually go to in NYC and as it was St Patricks day, it was mobbed with people wearing green. But no one cared that ireland were even playing in a sport on the TV. Its just a reason to get smashed. And that's grand, but its not far off the west indies parade, halloween, cinqo de mayo etc. Reasons for a party, but few with a care for ireland itself. There are alot of native born irish people in the US so they obviously care alot about ireland, but I think that's what you are mostly seeing, rather than most irish-americans caring too much. Go to an intercounty GAA match in NYC (e.g. mayo vs NY) and there are nearly no american accents there as an example.

by Sin é Fri 23 Sep 2016, 10:33 am

wolfball wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:Sounds like the RFU are contributing marketing expertise.

There is absolutely no way that the IRFU would start franchises in the US. They would never get permission from World Rugby or Rugby USA!. What I suspect they have in mind is providing expertise and help in setting up the franchise - stuff like providing coaches - for example Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good one as he would be very familiar with both US and European Rugby. Other stuff they could do is send out experienced players coming up to retirement (for example, players like Peter Stringer or Donnacha O'Callaghan who weren't first choice for Munster but still have a lot to give).

Worth watching this recent video of ROG, Sexton & Rory Best at a fund raising event in New York where they also gave some coaching sessions. The dinner raised $160,000 dollars for Crumlin Children's Hospital!

http://canyoncts.com/index.php/cmrf-rugby/
It's an odd thing. The Children's Medical Research Foundation is pretty well regarded in medical circles. Yet, this event was barely publicised over here amongst the New York area medical community. Seems like a good event and they did pull some good money.

I think maybe it was aimed at Irish expats and Irish Americans as it was fund raising for an Irish Children's Hospital.

I think people don't realise how strong the ties are between the US and Ireland. Ireland has a reputation for US companies locating in Ireland for tax reasons, but a little known fact is that Irish companies in the US employ more people than US companies in Ireland. As well as that, Ireland exports about 30bn of goods to US compared to about 19bn to UK which most people think is Ireland's biggest market.
Thanks for the info, mate. I know there is a close relationship between Ireland and the US, but I certainly didn't know about the trade info. I would have always presumed UK was the largest trade partner.

I guess you must be right, the fund raiser was aimed at the Irish expat or diaspora communities. I knew Sexton was over in NYC participating in a couple of youth skills sessions. But had no idea his visit was also connected to the fund raising. Seems like they must have had a great day for it.

I still like the idea of Pro12 teams playing on the east coast. I think it will take a longer time for the US pro league to grow on its own. This would give more cache to the sport, being connected to a major league. But I don't like putting them in the south or west coast. I understand Vancouver, in concept - it is a very British city, and has moderate winter weather. But Texas?????? Gak.

Sin e you are right on the trade, but I think you are overstating the irish/US relationship somewhat. As an irishman who spent 10 years in the US, many people claim irish heritage of course, but in the same way many have german,swedish,english,russian heritage. If you took st patricks day out of the equation, I don't think the US/Irish connection would feel anywhere as strong and even then americans and st patricks day is a Poopie.

as an example, in the recent irish 6nations win which landed on a St Patricks day. I was in the irish pub I usually go to in NYC and as it was St Patricks day, it was mobbed with people wearing green. But no one cared that ireland were even playing in a sport on the TV. Its just a reason to get smashed. And that's grand, but its not far off the west indies parade, halloween, cinqo de mayo etc. Reasons for a party, but few with a care for ireland itself. There are alot of native born irish people in the US so they obviously care alot about ireland, but I think that's what you are mostly seeing, rather than most irish-americans caring too much. Go to an intercounty GAA match in NYC (e.g. mayo vs NY) and there are nearly no american accents there as an example.

Interesting that an Irish American (grandmother from Fermanagh) has funded Munster's new training centre in UL to the tune of 6/7m Euro.

There was a hurling 'friendly' between Galway & Dublin in Boston last year organised by Boston Red Sox - it got 27,000 at it. I say 'friendly' as there was a massive brawl at it.

by Sin é Fri 23 Sep 2016, 10:36 am

Seems the US are interested:

USA Rugby opens door to possible expansions from abroad, but 'reiterates support' for domestic league
‘Any outside competition would have to align within the strategy and plan we are developing.’
http://www.the42.ie/usa-rugby-european-interest-pro12-2992126-Sep2016/

by **profitius** Fri 23 Sep 2016, 2:53 pm

Sin é wrote:Seems the US are interested:

USA Rugby opens door to possible expansions from abroad, but 'reiterates support' for domestic league
‘Any outside competition would have to align within the strategy and plan we are developing.’
http://www.the42.ie/usa-rugby-european-interest-pro12-2992126-Sep2016/

Sin é, the funny thing is the guardian had a completely different heading saying its a blow for the Pro12 as the US rugby union are backing PRO rugby (their newly formed domestic league). But the 42 article is probably more accurate because they ruled nothing out and they have to be seen to back PRO rugby.

by LordDowlais Sun 25 Sep 2016, 7:41 pm

Well, the Pro12 are keeping to their word, neutral TMO's, so much so, the TMO for the Treviso V Dragons game was so neutral, there was not one there. Neither did the refs have microphones to keep in contact with each other, just when you thought things were on the up, we get this farce.

And yes there were numerous controversial incidents.

by Guest Sun 25 Sep 2016, 8:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Well, the Pro12 are keeping to their word, neutral TMO's, so much so, the TMO for the Treviso V Dragons game was so neutral, there was not one there. Neither did the refs have microphones to keep in contact with each other, just when you thought things were on the up, we get this farce.

And yes there were numerous controversial incidents.

Was the game televised?

by LordDowlais Sun 25 Sep 2016, 8:26 pm

Munchkin wrote:Was the game televised?

There must have been some sort of camera's there as I just watched the highlights on Scrum V. Also, what difference does that make to the refs having mic's ?

by Guest Sun 25 Sep 2016, 8:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Was the game televised?

There must have been some sort of camera's there as I just watched the highlights on Scrum V. Also, what difference does that make to the refs having mic's ?

It makes a lot of difference. If the game wasn't broadcast then there would be no cameras, and no TMO.

by LordDowlais Sun 25 Sep 2016, 8:52 pm

Munchkin wrote:It makes a lot of difference. If the game wasn't broadcast then there would be no cameras, and no TMO.

Are you for real ? I just told you there were camera's there. What is the excuse for no mic's ?

Are all the games in the Aviva televised ? Top14 ? Yet they all have the same level of officiating.

Martin Anayi is supposed to be improving the officiating in the Pro12. By allowing this, it shows how amateur the league is compared to the other pro leagues in Europe. But why let that get in the way of a good argument ?

by Guest Sun 25 Sep 2016, 8:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:It makes a lot of difference. If the game wasn't broadcast then there would be no cameras, and no TMO.

Are you for real ? I just told you there were camera's there. What is the excuse for no mic's ?

Are all the games in the Aviva televised ? Top14 ? Yet they all have the same level of officiating.

Martin Anayi is supposed to be improving the officiating in the Pro12. By allowing this, it shows how amateur the league is compared to the other pro leagues in Europe. But why let that get in the way of a good argument ?

Why are you so upset?

Question: was it broadcast to TV? I've watched an Ulster game online that wasn't (Ulster Rugby provided livefeed and commentary), and the quality was pretty good.

by Guest Sun 25 Sep 2016, 9:32 pm

Ok, reading the Dragons forum, it appears the game wasn't broadcast to TV.

So no broadcaster, meaning no TMO.

Or am I not for real?

by LordDowlais Mon 26 Sep 2016, 8:16 am

Munchkin wrote:Ok, reading the Dragons forum, it appears the game wasn't broadcast to TV.

So no broadcaster, meaning no TMO.

Or am I not for real?

There was camera's there, that's how I saw the highlights on BBC Wales. For God's sake. What's the matter with you ?

Also, the refs had no way of communicating with each other, was that because of these camera's that you think were not there ?

This would not happen in any other professional league. Why only in the Pro12 ? Why do you find it acceptable ?

by Irish Londoner Mon 26 Sep 2016, 8:35 am

LordDowlais wrote:Also, the refs had no way of communicating with each other, was that because of these camera's that you think were not there ?

I used to referee/run the line at very low level club rugby, where there were no radios, we used to communicate by "talking"?

by LordDowlais Mon 26 Sep 2016, 9:03 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, the refs had no way of communicating with each other, was that because of these camera's that you think were not there ?

I used to referee/run the line at very low level club rugby, where there were no radios, we used to communicate by "talking"?

The bit in bold.

That is why that is acceptable. At that level. In a fully professional environment, it is not acceptable.

by St John The Enforcer Mon 26 Sep 2016, 9:11 am

You do realise what TMO stands for?

No "Television" no TMO. So someone has a camera or 2 in the stand how does that help?

You need a suite of cameras and an OB truck with editors etc inside it.

The premiership has had TMOs at all games for the last 3 seasons. Before that only televised games had them. Which was 2 or 3 a week.

In our league almost every game is televised.......

by LordDowlais Mon 26 Sep 2016, 9:22 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:No "Television" no TMO. So someone has a camera or 2 in the stand how does that help?

There was camera's there though. That's why we had the highlights. They were not some shaky blurred supporters phone video from the stand.

St John The Enforcer wrote:In our league almost every game is televised.......

Almost every game. So the ones that were not televised, do they have TMO's and mic'ed up refs ?

by St John The Enforcer Mon 26 Sep 2016, 9:30 am

LordDowlais wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:No "Television" no TMO. So someone has a camera or 2 in the stand how does that help?

There were camera's there though. That's why we had the highlights. They were not some shaky blurred supporters phone video from the stand.

Was there a full suite of cameras inc the steady cams that are on the touchlines? Was there an OB truck with editors?

St John The Enforcer wrote:In our league almost every game is televised.......

LordDowlais wrote:
Almost every game. So the ones that were not televised, do they have TMO's and mic'ed up refs ?

I would think not. As I said they didn't have them in the Prem until they got their huge BT cash. We were much better off for TMOs then and now we are slightly worse off.

by LordDowlais Mon 26 Sep 2016, 9:33 am

St John The Enforcer wrote: would think not. As I said they didn't have them in the Prem until they got their huge BT cash. We were much better off for TMOs then and now we are slightly worse off.

So you do get TMO's for every game, and all the ref's are always mic'ed up. Thanks for confirming that for me.

St John The Enforcer wrote:Were there a full suite of cameras inc the steady cams that are on the touchlines? Was there an OB truck with editors?

Surely there must have been something there as there were camera's there. I very much doubt that a bloke with his hand held went to the game, edited it, and sent a highlights reel to the BBC.

by St John The Enforcer Mon 26 Sep 2016, 9:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote: would think not. As I said they didn't have them in the Prem until they got their huge BT cash. We were much better off for TMOs then and now we are slightly worse off.

So you do get TMO's for every game, and all the ref's are always mic'ed up. Thanks for confirming that for me.

Do I? No idea what that means

St John The Enforcer wrote:Were there a full suite of cameras inc the steady cams that are on the touchlines? Was there an OB truck with editors?

LordDowlais wrote:

Surely there must have been something there as there were camera's there. I very much doubt that a bloke with his hand held went to the game, edited it, and sent a highlights reel to the BBC.

Your comprehension skills are really quite poor.

So there are only 2 possible camera options at a game?

A full suite of 24 cameras inc a refcam and touchline steadycams/skycams, editors, OB truck, director etc. etc.

Or

Some bloke on his phone.

There is no possibility that a broadcaster might have a few cameras to record highlights? No live broadcast = no need for truck, editors, etc. etc.

I can't believe I have to spell it out for you.

by LordDowlais Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:12 am

OK, trust the Irish to come on here and except mediocrity in the standards of officiating in the Pro12.

I want professionalism across the board, is this too much to ask for ?

Instead I have people on here picking on on stupid things like comprehension. Only on V2. Rolling Eyes

What is it with some people, no wonder the Pro12 is falling behind the other leagues. If the organisers do not give a feck about being professional then where are we to go. Rolling Eyes

by PhilBB Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:19 am

Nice to see the MD of USA Rugby dismiss the likelihood of PrO'12 expansion into America.

Those options are running out, Blazers.

by SecretFly Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:09 am

Jesus, it's a two for the price of one special. We are honoured here on V2.

by Guest Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:37 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Ok, reading the Dragons forum, it appears the game wasn't broadcast to TV.

So no broadcaster, meaning no TMO.

Or am I not for real?

There was camera's there, that's how I saw the highlights on BBC Wales. For God's sake. What's the matter with you ?

Also, the refs had no way of communicating with each other, was that because of these camera's that you think were not there ?

This would not happen in any other professional league. Why only in the Pro12 ? Why do you find it acceptable ?

So many things wrong with this post.

The game wasn't broadcast live to TV. You seeing highlights doesn't mean that it was. All it means is that someone, probably BBCW, had cameras there to cover highlights. BBCW could not legally show any part of that game live on the big screen. So no TMO could be used. Sinking in yet?

As for the use of mic? I don't know but would think the mic is part of the equipment included in the TMO van. There was no TMO van.

by Guest Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:38 am

PhilBB wrote:Nice to see the MD of USA Rugby dismiss the likelihood of PrO'12 expansion into America.

Those options are running out, Blazers.

Your month up already?

by PhilBB Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:40 am

Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Nice to see the MD of USA Rugby dismiss the likelihood of PrO'12 expansion into America.

Those options are running out, Blazers.

Your month up already?

I know. Amazing. A month for 'being annoying'.

Still, I can see how many are annoyed at having the truth smacked in their faces.

by Guest Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:43 am

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Nice to see the MD of USA Rugby dismiss the likelihood of PrO'12 expansion into America.

Those options are running out, Blazers.

Your month up already?

I know. Amazing. A month for 'being annoying'.

Still, I can see how many are annoyed at having the truth smacked in their faces.

I know. It should have been 6. So was it 'truth', or was it you being annoying? Make your mind up. I'm thinking annoying. The 'truth' thing seems very unlikely.

by PhilBB Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:44 am

Munchkin wrote:

I know. It should have been 6. So was it 'truth', or was it you being annoying? Make your mind up. I'm thinking annoying. The 'truth' thing seems very unlikely.

Any newbie to this board can see how the truth is annoying to a certain small clique.

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