The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion

First topic message reminder :

We've had the discussion on how does the PRO12 move forward for much of last season.

Towards the end of the season, PR012 CEO, Martin Anayi gave several media interviews on his own, and with PRO 12 chairman, Gerald Davies, on where the PRO12 needs to go to cope with changes in rugby within Six Nations and globally.

Anayi and Davies identified and acknowledged a number of the issues raised by PRO clubs CEOs and fans including increase in TV monies, match-day attendances, marketing, standard of refereeing, season structure and test window matches,  scheduling of season matches/kick-off times including Sunday games, European competitions, player welfare/concussion, growing "event" weekends, etc.

Anayi and Davies met with PRO12 CEOs over the last season to discuss issues and get feedback on a number of proposals that would mark out the future for the PRO 12 and its member unions.  

From various media interviews and reports - some unsubstantiated - a number of key decisions are being considered by PRO 12 and its 12 member clubs along with their representative organisations and unions.  In summary, these would appear to include:

• Changes to season scheduling to make it more accessible, consistent, and appealing to fans across the four unions territories starting from next season 2016/17.
  
• Further investment in a referee development programme to deal with issues/perceptions of bias and neutrality for league fixtures
  
• Stronger and more localised marketing and promotion of league games by the PRO12 and by the individual clubs to attract fans to games and make it more appealing to broadcasters.
  
• More promotion and stronger branding/marketing of games by TV partners
  
• Changing the structure of the league from home & away 22 games to a conference/pool structure that can accommodate more teams in the future from other unions/territories e.g. North America and South Africa, with East Coast of America being the first target to develop a franchise with operational and coaching expertise being provided by the four unions.
  
• Development of Big Event Weekends to drive crowd numbers, create a more appealing product for TV companies/sponsors, and generate more revenues for the PRO12
  
• Reduce number of games played during season and re-strucure so that no "league" games are played during the test windows in November and Feb/March
  
• Consequently, this would allow a greater proportion of league games to have test players involved and increase quality of product.
  
• During test windows, the PRO CEOs want rugby to continue, and a revised development competition is being proposed for these periods for development of academy and young players within squads not involved in test rugby.  This may involve changes to the British & Irish Cup and the Anglo-Wlesh Cup.  One report indicates that Premier Rugby may be interested in discussing the creation of a British & Irish development cup to replace the current AW Cup that would attract increased sponsorship and TV money than currently.
  

It's clear that changes need to occur for the PRO12.   The current structure and set-up is neither sufficient nor sustainable.   The most recent comments on this from the CEO of the IRFU in publishing their annual report indicate this clearly, and what changes need to occur.  He also commented on the plans to develop a franchise in the US.

The potential for the development of a B&I league has been regularly discussed on 606v2, but for the purposes of this topic, it's not being included as the Premiership has commitments for the next 6-7 years on its TV deals that would not countenance such a move.  

Feel free to comment/dispute/argue on what is being proposed - any errors are entirely mine.

Kingshu wrote:So far on this thread, The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion, what has been discussed

Who currently generates what TV monies and how it is divided. Not very much on future deals.
An Anglo-Welsh League, and why the IRFU are holding this back
Munsters previous lack of interest in Pro 12 and decline
and some general sniding.

If you haven't read the previous 6 pages, this generally sums it up.

That's a very poor and inaccurate summary.

I'd like to complain.

To get it back on track I'll try and discuss expansion.

It appears that the Pro 12 may be moving towards a conference system with a view of expansion.

I believe that the Pro 12 will have to expand to keep up with the spending powers of England and France, this expansion will have to bring in additional revenue streams.

In my view we have brought the Italians in, which is potentially a big market, however it currently isn't and having the Italians does not really increase the revenue generated.

To expand the options are
1) Additional European teams
2) North America
3) SA

I believe SA to be a non starter with super rugby, they may use the threat in neogations with Super rugby by SA wont really consider it.
Additional European teams is something possibly for the future, but currently they would be like the Italians, whereby the revenue generated would not be enough, it would be break even at best.

North America on the other hand, is it a possibility?
Potentially huge market, even small sports can make big TV money.

For example,
Closest comparison to how Rugby (with Pro 12 support) may do.

Arena Football (didn't know about it before, but its like indoors American Football, small pitch etc) 8 teams avg attendance 9000 TV deal is $20-30 million

Now before people think of course indoor american football is popular in the states, its really like comparing it to indoor football in the UK.

I don't think that US Pro Rugby on its own will be able to generate these attendances (most grounds can only hold 3000) and hence interest and this revenue, but with the Pro 12 it could.

There is a Market for Rugby in the US, but it requires big names.
ie
USA last home competitive games
USA V Canada Att = 7,145
USA V Chile Att =13,591
but against a big name
USA V NZ Att = 61500

I fully expect USA V NZ Maori, to sell out at 20,000
And NZ V Ireland to sell out at 61500

Which makes me think that a big name coming to town can create interest.

NZ (All Blacks) are a brand that transcends rugby. People go see them just to say they have seen them. People with scarce knowledge of or interest in rugby would know of them and be conscious of the notion that they are something special to see - the Mohamed Ali of rugby, the Usain Bolt of rugby, the Zebre of rugb................... oh sorry, got carried away there.

So it's safe to assume that any 'club' side coming over from Pro12 would have a mountain to climb to attract massive crowds of more than a few thousand.

That's not a reason not to try it but it would/will be a tough sell in the beginning.

The All Blacks are a big draw, but it shows there is an interest in Rugby, or at least will help grow it.
LI v Saracens attracted 14811
NBC recently paid to show Aviva games in the USA, so the TV companies believe there is interest, enough to show Prem highlights.

I do think theres more chance of professional rugby surviving, playing teams like the provinces rather than
Sacramento Express V Denver Stampede etc

However to set up teams, USA Rugby has only a 1/3 of the SRU budget, and I guess Canada is the same.
However to start I believe that USA and Canada could set up 2 teams each (or three and one) with help from the Pro 12 and aim to grow from there. The teams are going to have a hard time growing if they are like the Italians, The US teams have to be competitive quickly, to get support.
Having the right teams in the right places is key.
For example Boston has a history of rugby Union. The city had three teams in the premier division of USA rugby union, the Rugby Super League – Mystic River Rugby Club, the Boston Irish Wolfhounds, and Boston RFC.
New York had a few teams as well
Chicago has hosed the All Blacks twice and most be seen as another viable option
A Canadian team in Toronto.

The PRO 12 Chiefs are meeting this week to discuss the various proposals and options from Anayi.

So we might know a little more before the end of the week.

Theres more info here

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro-12-looking-at-north-america-franchise-as-part-of-expansion-1.2723886

It does read like a last ditch effort,
Plan A) Expand to new markets, and need to double/treble revenue
if this fails
Plan B) put money into youth development and be prepared to watch senior players move to England and France

I really hope Plan A works.

Have been looking into this, and reading up on it, it appears there are a number of options for expansion being explored.

1) An east coast USA side
2) A SA team is being mentioned, maybe European based with players that want to go to Europe
3) Expanding into Spain (clubs with links to football teams)
4) There was previous talk of London Welsh/Scottish, could this be resurrected?

Each of these does have potential. and I think we should discuss each in detail with merits and drawbacks, rather than just say great idea, or it will never work.

1) US team - Brown has said that the 4 unions have the expertise and ability to set a franchise up quickly
(EOS free to coach, familiar with US rugby?)
Set up in the right place, with a good squad, could be the magic bullet we all need and a market to grow.

2) SA are losing players to Europe at a rate very few nations could, and still have good teams, but there are rumours of them basing a team in Europe for Exiles to go to.
A few games have been planned/played in Belgium, and the Netherlands seams like a natural home from home for S.Africans, or if talking about London Scottish/Welsh maybe London South Africa but would it work?
SA players are mostly leaving SA for the money, which would mean that for them to be attracted to a SA European team they would need to match what other European teams are offering, and if they can do this then why not keep them in a Super rugby team?
A SA European team, would generate some more TV money but would South African TV viewers really be interested in an exile team? I suppose with the current rugby calendar they would be showing games when there is no Super Rugby, so may have a niche in the market, would Belgium/Netherlands be interested in showing it, and would it generate much?
Would Belgians/Dutch come out in numbers weekly to follow a team? London South Africa as well?
Lots of question marks about this.
It could be good or bad for the League depending on how it is set up.

3) Expand into Spain
The idea is to link up and create franchise(s) with the clubs linked to big football clubs, with a view of tapping into their support/resources.
The idea being having a team linked to a big team would make it more identifiable to fans in that city.
But what about a Rugby club linked to Real Madrid in Madrid what about Atlético Madrid fans, surely its best to appeal to the whole city. Also Real fans are the worst sort of fans, they would expect them to be the next Toulon, and turn on them quickly if they are not.
Barcelona on the other hand may not be a one city team but they do draw support from all of Catalan, so being linked to a football team may work here.
It seams that Valladolid has some Rugby back ground, and the football team is in the 2nd division.
North East Spain has a number of clubs as well.

Is there enough support in Spain? Surprisingly maybe.
The Copa del Rey de Rugby final attracted 26500 which is impressive considering the Principality Premiership Grand Final attracted around 4,500 also the Top 14 final in Barcelona Attracted 99,124
The fear here would be that if teams were set up, they would be another Italy in that its potentially a big market, but weak teams do not catch the imagination, and they then struggle for crowds and TV viewers.

4) London Welsh and Scottish have been linked before, (maybe a long shot London Irish) potentially huge market, but I can’t see the RFU or Prem clubs ever allowing it, as it would effect the supporters and TV deals they can get, they are never going to invite a rival into their own home. While I think its a nice idea, the reality is asking too much.

Some fair points there, kingshu

The Spanish one is interesting. I am curious about the T14 final getting such a big crowd. Mainly french support or how many locals attended? 100,000 is not to be sneezed at.

I think a combination of the first three would be the best way to go, a team set up.

Maybe the Pro 12 unions invest in a team like Valladolid or even create a Spanish super team to bring in a number of exports from the likes of SA and supplement it with a sprinkling of Spanish players and players from Pro 12 nations and go from there, has the potential to be both messy and exciting

My worries are

1) USA: it may be 'easy' to throw together a new franchise, but it does also involve a large amount of money being put into it to make it work. And seeing as the majority off Pro12 issues revolve around the lack of cash, I just can't see this one working

2) SA: if it wee the SuperRugby sides pulling out of the south and heading here, I would be all for it. However, it is more likely to be a currie cup level side. So that is pretty much us admitting we are not as good as them, their league is far superior. And I can't see broadcasters/sponsors lining up for something that is obviously a second tier tournament.

3) Spain: expanding to Spain will be just the same as when we brought the Italians on board. It is going to take a long time before they are genuine competition, and we will have to put up with years of them being slagged off.

4) London: see the South Africa argument.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:My worries are

1) USA: it may be 'easy' to throw together a new franchise, but it does also involve a large amount of money being put into it to make it work.  And seeing as the majority off Pro12 issues revolve around the lack of cash, I just can't see this one working

2) SA:  if it wee the SuperRugby sides pulling out of the south and heading here, I would be all for it.  However, it is more likely to be a currie cup level side.  So that is pretty much us admitting we are not as good as them, their league is far superior.  And I can't see broadcasters/sponsors lining up for something that is obviously a second tier tournament.

3) Spain: expanding to Spain will be just the same as when we brought the Italians on board.  It is going to take a long time before they are genuine competition, and we will have to put up with years of them being slagged off.

4) London: see the South Africa argument.

But the point is the PRO 12 and its constituent teams are not going to be perceived as "the same" as other more high-profile leagues. The objective is to make it different and worth watching. Some of the Currie Cup sides are extremely good in my view. And I'd rate them above London Welsh, Scottish or Irish.

USA would be problematic with the new league getting up and running there, it would be competition for it and it would attract American players and maybe some top internationals. That would dilute ProRugby.

Creating a SA team in Europe means creating a team with a SA identity without a SA fanbase and who the locals couldn't identify with.

The London options mean bringing the RFU on board with the Pro12 which creates issues around the AP and pathways etc

I think I mentioned a few weeks back that as part of their ''10 Fund'' for children's charities, ROG & Sexton were in New York doing a bit of coaching and after dinner speaking to raise money for their charity. From this video you, they say they raised 160,000 in New York. I also see that they had Rory Best involved as well.

Nice little video here.

http://canyoncts.com/index.php/cmrf-rugby/

Final in Dublin next year.

Sin é wrote:Final in Dublin next year.

That's a turn up for the books

Taking a different tack, there are a number of NE US areas without major US sports franchises. Connecticut and Rhode Island spring to mind (also spitting distance of NYC/Boston respectively)

http://moving.selfstorage.com/largest-metro-areas-without-major-league-sports-teams/

Two Billionaire American Financiers Set To Invest In Pro12

The Pro 12 has declared its intention to break into the American market.

For a number of months now, Pro 12 chiefs have been hinting at major a major overhaul of the competition.

Initially they floated the idea of dividing the league into conferences so as to reduce the number of fixtures and increase the participation of the competition’s star players.

Although the idea was broadly welcomed by supporters, question marks were raised when the IRFU’s CEO, Philip Browne revealed that the league was looking incorporate an American franchise.

While Browne did not announce a time frame for the inclusion of the US based franchise, it is widely assumed that a plan would be in place to make the Pro 12 attractive to broadcasters before their current deal with Sky comes up for renewal at the conclusion of the 2017/18 season.

However, fans remain skeptical, with many asking if an American TV network would in fact be willing to buy the rights to broadcast Pro 12 fixtures in the US.

Although that question remains unanswered, it would seem that the Pro 12 is beginning to generate interest in the US, after The Rugby Paper revealed American financiers, Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, are looking into the possibility of establishing two franchises in the country.

he duo are the current owners of Swansea City Football Club and are looking to take advantage of the Pro 12’s American proposal and branch into rugby.

Both Levien and Kaplan have already met with the Pro 12’s hierarchy and have held similar discussions with the Ospreys as to possible collaboration.

Although little else was reported, Levien and Kaplan have a background in investing in sport, having been involved in takeovers at Philadelphia 76ers, DC United, AC Milan, Memphis Grizzlies, and Minnesota Timberwolves.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/two-billionaire-american-financiers-set-invest-pro-12/

Sin é wrote:Two Billionaire American Financiers Set To Invest In Pro12

The Pro 12 has declared its intention to break into the American market.

For a number of months now, Pro 12 chiefs have been hinting at major a major overhaul of the competition.

Initially they floated the idea of dividing the league into conferences so as to reduce the number of fixtures and increase the participation of the competition’s star players.

Although the idea was broadly welcomed by supporters, question marks were raised when the IRFU’s CEO, Philip Browne revealed that the league was looking incorporate an American franchise.

While Browne did not announce a time frame for the inclusion of the US based franchise, it is widely assumed that a plan would be in place to make the Pro 12 attractive to broadcasters before their current deal with Sky comes up for renewal at the conclusion of the 2017/18 season.

However, fans remain skeptical, with many asking if an American TV network would in fact be willing to buy the rights to broadcast Pro 12 fixtures in the US.

Although that question remains unanswered, it would seem that the Pro 12 is beginning to generate interest in the US, after The Rugby Paper revealed American financiers, Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, are looking into the possibility of establishing two franchises in the country.

he duo are the current owners of Swansea City Football Club and are looking to take advantage of the Pro 12’s American proposal and branch into rugby.

Both Levien and Kaplan have already met with the Pro 12’s hierarchy and have held similar discussions with the Ospreys as to possible collaboration.

Although little else was reported, Levien and Kaplan have a background in investing in sport, having been involved in takeovers at Philadelphia 76ers, DC United, AC Milan, Memphis Grizzlies, and Minnesota Timberwolves.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/two-billionaire-american-financiers-set-invest-pro-12/

Blimey, that's a vague old article! Is punditarena basically just 606v2 but people get bunged a few Euro for their scribblings?

The Rugby Paper claimed that the owners of Swansea FC are interested in setting up a franchise (or 2) on the East coast of the US and Pundit Arena simply picked up on it.

Interesting. Wonder how that will develop.

I was at the Top 14 final in Barcelona (best 50th birthday present ever from the missus!). I think we were two of only a handful of British people at the game, not many Spaniards evident. Vast majority were French lots from from Toulon and Racing but the finalists were only settled the week before so loads of supporters from rest of T14. An amazing carnival atmosphere, stadium and a tremendous game.,

sensisball wrote:I was at the Top 14 final in Barcelona (best 50th birthday present ever from the missus!). I think we were two  of only a handful of British people at the game, not many Spaniards evident. Vast majority were French lots from from Toulon and Racing but the finalists were only settled the week before so loads of supporters from rest of T14. An amazing carnival atmosphere, stadium and a tremendous game.,

By all accounts it was a tremendous success, but There was quite a large reason it was held outside France.

sensisball wrote:I was at the Top 14 final in Barcelona (best 50th birthday present ever from the missus!). I think we were two  of only a handful of British people at the game, not many Spaniards evident. Vast majority were French lots from from Toulon and Racing but the finalists were only settled the week before so loads of supporters from rest of T14. An amazing carnival atmosphere, stadium and a tremendous game.,

Yes - had a couple of mates who went to it and said it was great fun and brilliant atmosphere.

Guardian story on the launch of PRO12 season adds further update on the proposed US expansion and the developments around sponsorship and final hosting:


"The Guinness Pro12, the only professional cross-border league in Europe, is considering expanding into North America as the organisers look at ways of closing the financial gap with the Premiership and Top 14.

Pro12 officials will next month fly out to meet representatives from the United States and Canada unions to discuss expanding the league to 14 teams before the end of the decade, having been boosted by Guinness’s decision to extend its sponsorship deal to 2020.

The face-to-face meeting will follow a number of telephone conversations and the Pro12’s move came after the Premiership initiative last season in which London Irish played Saracens in New Jersey. It was meant to be the first of three matches up to 2018, but the Exiles’ relegation in May has led to the plan being put on hold.

The Pro12 considered arranging a match for one of its Irish provinces in New York or Boston, cities with large Irish populations, but the idea developed into something more permanent with the US and Canada interested in setting up teams on their east coasts to take part in the league.

“It is something we are looking at as part of our plans to grow the league,” the Pro12 chairman, Gerald Davies, said on Tuesday at the tournament launch in Dublin. “There are sizeable Italian communities there, as well as Irish and Scottish, and as long as increased travel costs are met by an increase in sponsorship, we have established it would be viable logistically.”

The Pro12 held talks last year with London Welsh and London Scottish about the two England-based clubs joining the league and giving it a footprint in London, but nothing came from them with neither bringing much in terms of crowd support.

“The fact we are a cross-border tournament makes us different and it is something we should cherish,” said Davies, the former Wales and Lions wing. “We should promote it all we can and we should also trumpet that the ball was in play in the Pro12 last season for longer than any other tournament in the world. The rugby played is high quality, as last season’s final between Connacht and Leinster showed, and we always look at ways of getting bigger and better.”

That final attracted a record attendance after the decision to play it at an international venue, Murrayfield. This season’s showpiece will be staged at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin and the hope is that the Welsh Rugby Union will submit a tender to host it at the Principality Stadium in 2018.

“Playing the final at Murrayfield was a big step for us,” the Pro12 chief executive, Martin Anayi, said. “We are increasing our fanbase and a theme for the coming season is that fans need to be readjusted in terms of importance. It is not just about sponsors, broadcasters and the media. We are putting the fans first, which is why we have listened to those in Wales who said they did not want matches to be played on a Sunday.

“They have been moved to Saturday evening and that shows how important Wales are to the league. We are also becoming more digital conscious to engage with young supporters. Rugby needs a clear narrative and other feedback from fans shows that they want international players playing for their clubs. Club rugby is on a massive growth spurt and we want to be leaders in that.”

The new season will end on 6 May with what has been called Super Saturday. All six matches will kick off at the same time and will be local affairs: two Welsh and Irish derbies with Glasgow facing Edinburgh and Zebre taking on Treviso. The play-offs then follow, with the final in Dublin on 27 May.

Connacht, who won the title last season despite having the lowest playing budget of the 12 sides, start the defence of their title against the team whose crown they claimed, Glasgow. “We must not put to the back of our minds what we achieved last season,” the Connacht head coach, Pat Lam, said.

“At a recent team meeting, I made sure the league trophy was at the front of the room to remind the players not just what they achieved but how they did it. It is not about how much you spend but whether everyone in the squad believes in what we are doing.”

As the Pro12 considers expanding, its two Italian sides are intent on moving up the table after years of battling to avoid the wooden spoon. “There is a need for some joined-up thinking in our game and the arrival of Conor O’Shea [as Italy coach] has provided that,” the Treviso head coach, Kieran Crowley, the former New Zealand full-back who arrived from Canada in May, said. “It will take a couple of years, but the potential is here and we have the example of Connacht to follow.”

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:Two Billionaire American Financiers Set To Invest In Pro12

The Pro 12 has declared its intention to break into the American market.

For a number of months now, Pro 12 chiefs have been hinting at major a major overhaul of the competition.

Initially they floated the idea of dividing the league into conferences so as to reduce the number of fixtures and increase the participation of the competition’s star players.

Although the idea was broadly welcomed by supporters, question marks were raised when the IRFU’s CEO, Philip Browne revealed that the league was looking incorporate an American franchise.

While Browne did not announce a time frame for the inclusion of the US based franchise, it is widely assumed that a plan would be in place to make the Pro 12 attractive to broadcasters before their current deal with Sky comes up for renewal at the conclusion of the 2017/18 season.

However, fans remain skeptical, with many asking if an American TV network would in fact be willing to buy the rights to broadcast Pro 12 fixtures in the US.

Although that question remains unanswered, it would seem that the Pro 12 is beginning to generate interest in the US, after The Rugby Paper revealed American financiers, Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, are looking into the possibility of establishing two franchises in the country.

he duo are the current owners of Swansea City Football Club and are looking to take advantage of the Pro 12’s American proposal and branch into rugby.

Both Levien and Kaplan have already met with the Pro 12’s hierarchy and have held similar discussions with the Ospreys as to possible collaboration.

Although little else was reported, Levien and Kaplan have a background in investing in sport, having been involved in takeovers at Philadelphia 76ers, DC United, AC Milan, Memphis Grizzlies, and Minnesota Timberwolves.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/two-billionaire-american-financiers-set-invest-pro-12/

Blimey, that's a vague old article! Is punditarena basically just 606v2 but people get bunged a few Euro for their scribblings?

Interesting. I just spoke to someone at a rival network to NBC, the network which has the new contract to broadcast the Premiership in America. He indicated Rugby, whether Premiership or Pro12 is attractive to NBC because most matches are in the morning US time, a time when there is no real live sport over here. Additionally, it will fill 2 hours of programming and the initial costs will be extremely low compared to the payments made to mainstream American sport. The 4 major American sports are on multi-billion dollar tv contracts. Rugby would provide 2 hours of programming for cheap. In other words, little downside and massive upside.

doctor_grey wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:Two Billionaire American Financiers Set To Invest In Pro12

The Pro 12 has declared its intention to break into the American market.

For a number of months now, Pro 12 chiefs have been hinting at major a major overhaul of the competition.

Initially they floated the idea of dividing the league into conferences so as to reduce the number of fixtures and increase the participation of the competition’s star players.

Although the idea was broadly welcomed by supporters, question marks were raised when the IRFU’s CEO, Philip Browne revealed that the league was looking incorporate an American franchise.

While Browne did not announce a time frame for the inclusion of the US based franchise, it is widely assumed that a plan would be in place to make the Pro 12 attractive to broadcasters before their current deal with Sky comes up for renewal at the conclusion of the 2017/18 season.

However, fans remain skeptical, with many asking if an American TV network would in fact be willing to buy the rights to broadcast Pro 12 fixtures in the US.

Although that question remains unanswered, it would seem that the Pro 12 is beginning to generate interest in the US, after The Rugby Paper revealed American financiers, Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, are looking into the possibility of establishing two franchises in the country.

he duo are the current owners of Swansea City Football Club and are looking to take advantage of the Pro 12’s American proposal and branch into rugby.

Both Levien and Kaplan have already met with the Pro 12’s hierarchy and have held similar discussions with the Ospreys as to possible collaboration.

Although little else was reported, Levien and Kaplan have a background in investing in sport, having been involved in takeovers at Philadelphia 76ers, DC United, AC Milan, Memphis Grizzlies, and Minnesota Timberwolves.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/two-billionaire-american-financiers-set-invest-pro-12/

Blimey, that's a vague old article! Is punditarena basically just 606v2 but people get bunged a few Euro for their scribblings?

Interesting.  I just spoke to someone at a rival network to NBC, the network which has the new contract to broadcast the Premiership in America.  He indicated Rugby, whether Premiership or Pro12 is attractive to NBC because most matches are in the morning US time, a time when there is no real live sport over here.  Additionally, it will fill 2 hours of programming and the initial costs will be extremely low compared to the payments made to mainstream American sport.  The 4 major American sports are on multi-billion dollar tv contracts.  Rugby would provide 2 hours of programming for cheap.  In other words, little downside and massive upside.  

That make sense, Doc. I remember the first time many years ago that I went to sell a TV series to the likes of Discovery and PBC in the States - as opposed to just Britain and Ireland at that point - and the prices they were willing to pay for documentary/feature programmes was fantastical compared to these shores. I can see how that would apply to sport, and with the proliferation of channels and demand for content, prices have increased substantially over the years, even for low audience programmes.

doctor_grey wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:Two Billionaire American Financiers Set To Invest In Pro12

The Pro 12 has declared its intention to break into the American market.

For a number of months now, Pro 12 chiefs have been hinting at major a major overhaul of the competition.

Initially they floated the idea of dividing the league into conferences so as to reduce the number of fixtures and increase the participation of the competition’s star players.

Although the idea was broadly welcomed by supporters, question marks were raised when the IRFU’s CEO, Philip Browne revealed that the league was looking incorporate an American franchise.

While Browne did not announce a time frame for the inclusion of the US based franchise, it is widely assumed that a plan would be in place to make the Pro 12 attractive to broadcasters before their current deal with Sky comes up for renewal at the conclusion of the 2017/18 season.

However, fans remain skeptical, with many asking if an American TV network would in fact be willing to buy the rights to broadcast Pro 12 fixtures in the US.

Although that question remains unanswered, it would seem that the Pro 12 is beginning to generate interest in the US, after The Rugby Paper revealed American financiers, Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan, are looking into the possibility of establishing two franchises in the country.

he duo are the current owners of Swansea City Football Club and are looking to take advantage of the Pro 12’s American proposal and branch into rugby.

Both Levien and Kaplan have already met with the Pro 12’s hierarchy and have held similar discussions with the Ospreys as to possible collaboration.

Although little else was reported, Levien and Kaplan have a background in investing in sport, having been involved in takeovers at Philadelphia 76ers, DC United, AC Milan, Memphis Grizzlies, and Minnesota Timberwolves.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/two-billionaire-american-financiers-set-invest-pro-12/

Blimey, that's a vague old article! Is punditarena basically just 606v2 but people get bunged a few Euro for their scribblings?

Interesting.  I just spoke to someone at a rival network to NBC, the network which has the new contract to broadcast the Premiership in America.  He indicated Rugby, whether Premiership or Pro12 is attractive to NBC because most matches are in the morning US time, a time when there is no real live sport over here.  Additionally, it will fill 2 hours of programming and the initial costs will be extremely low compared to the payments made to mainstream American sport.  The 4 major American sports are on multi-billion dollar tv contracts.  Rugby would provide 2 hours of programming for cheap.  In other words, little downside and massive upside.  

That's a really good point on the time slots. It makes proper pro rugby in the US have a much better business case. Yeah, money wise a single NFL quarterback's annual sponsorship would cover a rugby team or two...

Isn't rugby played the same sort of time as Premiership football? Do they not have that in America?

Its worth nothing as well, that Liberty Global who have been buying up tv stations like no business over here (Virgin Media, TV3, UTV, Eurosport and an interest in ITV) own Discovery. At the time they were buying ITV I think, they mentioned that they were interested in producing media content that could be aired on all their networks worldwide (and they have been buying up tv networks everywhere).

I wonder is this the reason that BT Sport & Setanta will not be available on Virgin since EirSport was launched.

Dai Llewod wrote:Isn't rugby played the same sort of time as Premiership football? Do they not have that in America?

Yes, but there are millions of networks in the US.

Sin é wrote:Its worth nothing as well, that Liberty Global who have been buying up tv stations like no business over here (Virgin Media, TV3, UTV, Eurosport and an interest in ITV) own Discovery. At the time they were buying ITV I think, they mentioned that they were interested in producing media content that could be aired on all their networks worldwide (and they have been buying up tv networks everywhere).

I wonder is this the reason that BT Sport & Setanta will not be available on Virgin since EirSport was launched.

Sin - from Irish Times site in July this year:

"Virgin Media is set to drop Eir Sports from its cable TV platform at the end of this month after failing to agree commercial terms on a new wholesale arrangement for the pack of six channels, which includes BT Sport.
Instead, Virgin has signed a new multi-year deal with Sky to carry a range of its sports and entertainment channels, including its new station, Sky Sports Mix.
This channel will be offered as part of Virgin Media’s basic TV pack, replacing Setanta Sports (now Eir Sport), which it had carried since its launch in 2004.
Sky Sports Mix will launch in August and show live soccer from Spain’s La Liga, FIFA World Cup 2018 qualifiers, as well as a select number of Premier League and Football League matches.
Bill Blake, head of media content with Virgin Media, told The Irish Times that Eir Sport’s loss to Sky of the Irish rights to live English Premier League games on a Saturday afternoon and declining subscriber numbers were behind its decision to drop Eir Sport."

A further interview with Martin Anayi on the proposed US expansion. Ties in with some of the speculation and discussion we've been having on here. He also refers to the need for change to the Six Nations. As mentioned by some, the need for a Global season and the need for the four Six Nations unions being open to a shift to April/May - this could splinter the SH assumption that the NH unions think and speak as one:

"Guinness Pro12 bosses have confirmed they have been in negotiations with rugby chiefs on the other side of the Atlantic about opening a new frontier in the United States.

The Pro12 hierarchy sees north America as a potential route to generating more broadcasting and sponsorship revenue in their bid to close the gap on the cash-laden French Top 14 and Aviva Premiership in terms of popularity and financial clout.

They want to use the lure of Leinster, Munster, Connacht, Ulster, Treviso and Zebre to tap into the large Irish and Italian communities on the eastern seaboard of the States.

Rugby is growing in popularity in the USA, with a new domestic league having been established, while world champions New Zealand’s primary sponsor, the insurance giant AIG, has created an annual fixture in Chicago.

The Sevens tournament at the Olympics has also resulted in a surge in interest.

A record 61,500 fans watched Steve Hansen’s All Blacks take on the USA Eagles at Soldier Field in 2014, while Ireland will play the world champs there in November.

And an Aviva Premiership match was taken to New York last season, with London Irish facing Saracens in front of a 15,000 crowd at the Red Bull Arena.

Guinness Pro12 chief executive Martin Anayi said: “We’ve had really early discussions with USA Rugby, broadcasters, sponsors, and consulted internally with our teams and shareholders.

“Everyone’s saying the same thing... that if it’s good for the tournament across a whole range of areas like player welfare, commercially, and for the fans then we should explore how far we can take it.

“Initial discussions are really good. They believe in the same things we do, one of which is that the only way for a tier two nation to become a tier one nation is through professional club rugby because there is no scope to expand the international calendar for the USA to play more games.

“Does it work from a logistics perspective and will the players travel? We haven’t even got to that level of discussion.

“But they’ve got exactly the same situation as us with a passionate fan base and union control of the club game, but small markets.

”It’s how they are going to capitalise on that and how they do it. Is it through a national league and a professional franchise?

“Do you do it through us or SANZAAR (South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and Argentina)?

“I think northern hemisphere rugby suits the American psyche, they are more northern hemisphere orientated.

“The growth areas are Boston, New York and Philadelphia, where the Celts and the Italians are.”

Pro12 chiefs haven’t put a time-scale on the talks with the Americans but Anayi believes a key factor would be whether agreement can be reached on a global season.

“You’ve got to talk about why is it that we’re losing a huge proportion of international players, not week-in and week-out but for big chunks of the season,” he said.

“Intersperse that with European club rugby as well and you get quite a disjointed season. It’s quite hard to follow and then also becomes less of a reason to buy a season ticket.”

He maintained the Pro12 would benefit from the Six Nations being held in April and May, rather than in February and March, as it is now.

“We think there’s a simple solution to the global season, which is to push the Six Nations back a bit and get the club season in before it. That would also tie in with European rugby.

“The Six Nations is critically important for the finance of the game. My opinion and those I’ve spoken to in the broadcast industry is you would get the Six Nations in before the Champions League final, and it doesn’t go into BBC territory for The Open, Wimbledon and the Olympics.

“And it’s the simplest route for us to get to what we want to, which is a club season and an international season. That’s how we’ll generate more fans.”

“We are really, really sure about our future and about how successful club rugby can be globally if we can just get our international players playing consistently.”

The Premiership has been prodded into making a statement about the global season following the PRO12's statement about shifting the Six Nations back about six weeks to beginning of April.  It's carried on ESPN

Mark McCafferty: ""We don't like that particular idea, but we do have some of our own ideas and concepts."   He said these ideas were best expressed in a room rather than publicly.

When asked about PRO12 possible expansion into the US, McCafferty insisted the Premiership will not expand its teams beyond England, but also reconfirmed plans to stage another league fixture in the US in the coming campaign.

"We are an English league, that's where our strength is. We've certainly no plans to change," he said. "We'll look to grow our profile in the States for sure, and we've made a couple of big breakthroughs on that last season."

Pot Hale wrote:The Premiership has been prodded into making a statement about the global season following the PRO12's statement about shifting the Six Nations back about six weeks to beginning of April.  It's carried on ESPN

Mark McCafferty: ""We don't like that particular idea, but we do have some of our own ideas and concepts."   He said these ideas were best expressed in a room rather than publicly.

When asked about PRO12 possible expansion into the US, McCafferty insisted the Premiership will not expand its teams beyond England, but also reconfirmed plans to stage another league fixture in the US in the coming campaign.

"We are an English league, that's where our strength is. We've certainly no plans to change," he said. "We'll look to grow our profile in the States for sure, and we've made a couple of big breakthroughs on that last season."

I suppose this means the Premiership is telling the Pro12 they will have no competition as the Celts (Pro12) investigate re-colonizing America, this time with a Rugby ball. Good for the Pro12, gives them time to get it right without concern about inroads from another league. This is probably the right move for both leagues at the moment.

doctor_grey wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The Premiership has been prodded into making a statement about the global season following the PRO12's statement about shifting the Six Nations back about six weeks to beginning of April.  It's carried on ESPN

Mark McCafferty: ""We don't like that particular idea, but we do have some of our own ideas and concepts."   He said these ideas were best expressed in a room rather than publicly.

When asked about PRO12 possible expansion into the US, McCafferty insisted the Premiership will not expand its teams beyond England, but also reconfirmed plans to stage another league fixture in the US in the coming campaign.

"We are an English league, that's where our strength is. We've certainly no plans to change," he said. "We'll look to grow our profile in the States for sure, and we've made a couple of big breakthroughs on that last season."

I suppose this means the Premiership is telling the Pro12 they will have no competition as the Celts (Pro12) investigate re-colonizing America, this time with a Rugby ball.  Good for the Pro12, gives them time to get it right without concern about inroads from another league.  This is probably the right move for both leagues at the moment.  

Agreed - they want to sell Tv rights there.   And it's also an indicator that they don't have any plans to be bringing in any other teams into the league, nor contemplating an expanded/new British/Irish league either.

Although Super Rugby would reasonably argue they are substantial competitors to get teams in the US into their comp.

Yeh we have sold the AP broadcasting rights to America and that will be it.

Honestly I can't see America taking to pro 12 rugby TBH, or any other league TBH.

It needs its own league to develop.

Best way to get USA ATM is to play games there and decent teams and prob Irish teams.

Welly wrote: Yeh we have sold the AP broadcasting rights to America and that will be it.

Honestly I can't see America taking to pro 12 rugby TBH, or any other league TBH.

It needs its own league to develop.

Best way to get USA ATM is to play games there and decent teams and prob Irish teams.

Thats where they started from according to Anayi. And it moved on to discussing possible franchises. But it's only talk at the moment. May come to naught if the global season structure can't happen, or they can't get the TV deal,,etc.

Why couldn't they do it without Global season?

Welly wrote: Yeh we have sold the AP broadcasting rights to America and that will be it.

Honestly I can't see America taking to pro 12 rugby TBH, or any other league TBH.

It needs its own league to develop.

Best way to get USA ATM is to play games there and decent teams and prob Irish teams.

I think they need each other to be honest, the Premier League is bigger in America than the MLS. If you market things right its very doable.

The Ireland/NZ game in November is the perfect opportunity to ramp things up, have the Irish players doing the media rounds etc and talking about the sport and the Pro 12, have league reps out there selling the league to anyone who will listen.

What they really need is someone to step up and become a star

marty2086 wrote:

Welly wrote: Yeh we have sold the AP broadcasting rights to America and that will be it.

Honestly I can't see America taking to pro 12 rugby TBH, or any other league TBH.

It needs its own league to develop.

Best way to get USA ATM is to play games there and decent teams and prob Irish teams.

I think they need each other to be honest, the Premier League is bigger in America than the MLS. If you market things right its very doable.

The Ireland/NZ game in November is the perfect opportunity to ramp things up, have the Irish players doing the media rounds etc and talking about the sport and the Pro 12, have league reps out there selling the league to anyone who will listen.

What they really need is someone to step up and become a star

Oh I agree that they need each other just will it
1) Will Americans get interested in their clubs joining a forign league? Esp a league with no importance to them (so pretty much every rugby league ATM)
2) Willthey be content with just 2 teams if it does kicks off and instead of more expansion would they rather want to make a proper go at starting their own league?


Scheduling will be interesting considered how clog up USA winter sports are.

I think the Pro12 needs to try growing in the US before considering adding a US franchise, the big problem is adding one or two and getting another Italy. The initial enthusiasm it may generate will wain quickly if they don't win, as you said Welly its a clogged up schedule so they will have plenty to hold their attention away from rugby

Welly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Welly wrote: Yeh we have sold the AP broadcasting rights to America and that will be it.

Honestly I can't see America taking to pro 12 rugby TBH, or any other league TBH.

It needs its own league to develop.

Best way to get USA ATM is to play games there and decent teams and prob Irish teams.

I think they need each other to be honest, the Premier League is bigger in America than the MLS. If you market things right its very doable.

The Ireland/NZ game in November is the perfect opportunity to ramp things up, have the Irish players doing the media rounds etc and talking about the sport and the Pro 12, have league reps out there selling the league to anyone who will listen.

What they really need is someone to step up and become a star

Oh I agree that they need each other just will it
1) Will Americans get interested in their clubs joining a forign league? Esp a league with no importance to them (so pretty much every rugby league ATM)
2) Willthey be content with just 2 teams if it does kicks off and instead of more expansion would they rather want to make a proper go at starting their own league?


Scheduling will be interesting considered how clog up USA winter sports are.

I think the Americans would be interested in to have teams in a 'foreign league' if located on the east coast.  Most of the country is very inward looking.  But the east coast, especially the northeast, is very different.  People in the northeast US have more of a global view, and in some cases more in common with those across the Atlantic than those down in the southern US.  

I think there is a problem with a lot of people eyeing up the market:  
- The Americans are starting their own league (very small and no presence on the east coast)
- Super Rugby is considering a team in southern California ( where the girls are warm )
- The Premiership wants to play a match or two each season on the east coast
- The Pro 12 looking to locate a team or two in America

Perhaps a SR/NFL hybrid. 3 conferences, 1 in US 2 europe, 6 teams in each. Play H & A teams in their conference (10 games) then either play other 12 teams alternating H&A over 2 seasons or 6 teams H&A alternating teams over 2 seasons.

broadlandboy wrote:Perhaps a SR/NFL hybrid. 3 conferences, 1 in US 2 europe, 6 teams in each. Play H & A teams in their conference (10 games) then either play other 12 teams alternating H&A over 2 seasons or 6 teams H&A alternating teams over 2 seasons.

That sounds like one of the worse ideas ever.

Welly wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Perhaps a SR/NFL hybrid. 3 conferences, 1 in US 2 europe, 6 teams in each. Play H & A teams in their conference (10 games) then either play other 12 teams alternating H&A over 2 seasons or 6 teams H&A alternating teams over 2 seasons.

That sounds like one of the worse ideas ever.

Why? I mean its essentially the super rugby structure which has been working well? This biggst issue is getting 6 US franchises. Which is 10 years away. Maybe 1-3 could emerge in 5 years. Its worth reading up on MLS which is a lesson in how to get a minor US sport to a decent size over there.

The super rugby structure has not been working well not at all, just need to look at SH rugby forums to see that Super Rugby schedule is a mess.

Anyway sounds like the Top 14 is eyeing up France mainly Toulon is eyeing up taking over a club and putting it in the pro rugby league (in the MLS type of style) if the other clubs follows than Super rugby and pro12 rugby will struggle to expand into it racing already own a club in France.

Welly wrote:The super rugby structure has not been working well not at all, just need to look at SH rugby forums to see that Super Rugby schedule is a mess.

Anyway sounds like the Top 14 is eyeing up France mainly Toulon is eyeing up taking over a club and putting it in the pro rugby league (in the MLS type of style) if the other clubs follows than Super rugby and pro12 rugby will struggle to expand into it racing already own a club in France.

SR is profitable, it is expanding and it's purpose (to keep SH national teams as the best in the world) has largely been maintained. Of course rugby's schedule is a mess, but it is everywhere #globalseason. So not sure why it isn't working.

The top 14 is eyeing france?? Confused. If you meant the US, well I am sure they are, its the big shiny toy in our hemisphere. But if Toulon's owners invest in a franchise in the US, doesn't mean that there is a US team in the top14. Just means business men have diversified their portfolio. Top14 is so inward looking, I find it hard to imagine, even more so than the english, wanting legit foreign teams in their league. Pro12 is already an international league, the structural barriers to entry are lower.

wolfball wrote:

Welly wrote:The super rugby structure has not been working well not at all, just need to look at SH rugby forums to see that Super Rugby schedule is a mess.

Anyway sounds like the Top 14 is eyeing up France mainly Toulon is eyeing up taking over a club and putting it in the pro rugby league (in the MLS type of style) if the other clubs follows than Super rugby and pro12 rugby will struggle to expand into it racing already own a club in France.

SR is profitable, it is expanding and it's purpose (to keep SH national teams as the best in the world) has largely been maintained. Of course rugby's schedule is a mess, but it is everywhere #globalseason. So not sure why it isn't working.  

The top 14 is eyeing france?? Confused. If you meant the US, well I am sure they are, its the big shiny toy in our hemisphere. But if Toulon's owners invest in a franchise in the US, doesn't mean that there is a US team in the top14. Just means business men have diversified their portfolio. Top14 is so inward looking, I find it hard to imagine, even more so than the english, wanting legit foreign teams in their league. Pro12 is already an international league, the structural barriers to entry are lower.

You mean the Super rugby that is looking on getting rid of 2 teams? The global season isn't the issue with Super rugby ATM it is poor planning by SANZAR.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/super-rugby-australia-south-africa-to-lose-one-team-each-under-new-proposal-20160825-gr0tac.html
Kiwi fans POV
http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/42269-secret-super-rugby-review-axe-a-team-from-australia-and-south-africa/
SA POV
http://www.rugby365.com/tournaments/super-rugby/74798-fewer-teams-in-super-rugby-reshuffle

No it sounds like Toulon are eyeing up a club and putting them into the Pro rugby league.
http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/boudjellal-chases-the-american-dream-68460

Welly wrote:

wolfball wrote:

Welly wrote:The super rugby structure has not been working well not at all, just need to look at SH rugby forums to see that Super Rugby schedule is a mess.

Anyway sounds like the Top 14 is eyeing up France mainly Toulon is eyeing up taking over a club and putting it in the pro rugby league (in the MLS type of style) if the other clubs follows than Super rugby and pro12 rugby will struggle to expand into it racing already own a club in France.

SR is profitable, it is expanding and it's purpose (to keep SH national teams as the best in the world) has largely been maintained. Of course rugby's schedule is a mess, but it is everywhere #globalseason. So not sure why it isn't working.  

The top 14 is eyeing france?? Confused. If you meant the US, well I am sure they are, its the big shiny toy in our hemisphere. But if Toulon's owners invest in a franchise in the US, doesn't mean that there is a US team in the top14. Just means business men have diversified their portfolio. Top14 is so inward looking, I find it hard to imagine, even more so than the english, wanting legit foreign teams in their league. Pro12 is already an international league, the structural barriers to entry are lower.

You mean the Super rugby that is looking on getting rid of 2 teams? The global season isn't the issue with Super rugby ATM it is poor planning by SANZAR.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/super-rugby-australia-south-africa-to-lose-one-team-each-under-new-proposal-20160825-gr0tac.html

No it sounds like Toulon are eyeing up a club and putting them into the Pro rugby league.
http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/boudjellal-chases-the-american-dream-68460

Ah those are helpful links, cheers. The latter link is more worrying, the feeder model is a direct threat to any US franchise into the PRO12.