Wales thread continued - 2017/18 season

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

2017/2018 season results (full fixture list posted below).

Wales 21 - 29 Australia
Wales 13 - 6 Georgia
Wales 18 - 33 New Zealand
Wales 24 - 22 South Africa

Wales 2018 6N Squad:
Forwards: Rob Evans (Scarlets), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Elliot Dee (Dragons), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Seb Davies (Cardiff Blues), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, capt), James Davies (Scarlets), Taulupe Faletau (Bath), Ellis Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys).

Backs: Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Rhys Priestland (Bath), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Owen Watkin (Ospreys), Owen Williams (Gloucester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors), Hallam Amos (Dragons), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Steff Evans (Scarlets), Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets), George North (Northampton Saints), Liam Williams (Saracens).

Faletau, Biggar expected to be available later on in the tournament. Amos, L Williams perhaps a little sooner.

Call-ups to cover injuries, etc.
Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I thought we'd start with the Autumn series. Gatland the Great is set to return and shake things up after another disappointing season underneath the Howler and his pal McBryde. The fixtures for this series are as follows:

November 2017
Sat 11th Nov 17 17:15
Wales   v   Australia  
Sat 18th Nov 17 14:30
Wales   v   Georgia
Sat 25th Nov 17 17:15
Wales   v   New Zealand
December 2017
Sat 2nd Dec 17 14:30
Wales   v   South Africa

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well there's no time like now so why not. Last year was a bit disappointing, topped off with an unsuccessful tour to NZ (as expected). Whilst I'm hoping for better this season my expectations are low as we have Howler and some other amateurs in charge who got the job because they were mates with Gatland and others in the WRU.

AI's
Wales V Australia 05/11/2016
8 - 32
Wales V Argentina 12/11/2016
24 - 20
Wales V Japan 19/11/2016
33 - 30
Wales V South Africa 26/11/2016
27 - 13

6 Nations
Italy V Wales 05/02/2017
7 - 33
Wales V England 11/02/2017
16 - 21
Scotland V Wales 25/02/2017
29 - 13
Wales V Ireland 10/03/2017
22 - 9
France V Wales 18/03/2017
20 -18

Very tough AI series but a kind start in the 6N. So far this season Blues and Ospreys look good, but how many of their players will be starters for Wales? Cuthbert is starting to look like his old self and if this continues he could come back into the team. Tomos Williams looks like a good player and if he also continues in this vein then might he take advantage of Gareth Davies' supposed rustiness? It's still early days but going by what I've seen and the reports I've read I would like to see a new centre partnership and also perhaps see our old back 3 of North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny reinstated - although a lot could happen between now and November. With Faletau out I think we can all guess who the wildcards will be, but who does that leave to play at No.8 - possibly Warburton with Ellis Jenkins at 7? What changes (if any) would you like to see? Keep it sensible please.

WALES 2016 UNDER ARMOUR SERIES SQUAD
Prop Scott Andrews (Cardiff Blues) (12 Caps) Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (14 Caps) Rhys Gill (Cardiff Blues) (6 Caps) Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues) (126 Caps) Samson Lee (Scarlets) (28 Caps) Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (3 Caps)
Hooker Scott Baldwin (Ospreys) (24 Caps) Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues) (3 Caps) Ken Owens (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Second Row Jake Ball (Scarlets) (20 Caps) Luke Charteris (Bath Rugby) (68 Caps) Bradley Davies (Ospreys) (56 Caps) Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (102 Caps) Rory Thornton (Ospreys) (UNCAPPED)
Back Row Dan Baker (Ospreys) (3 Caps) Taulupe Faletau* (Bath Rugby) (61 Caps) James King (Ospreys) (8 Caps) Dan Lydiate (Ospreys) (57 Caps) Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) (9 Caps) Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (43 Caps) Sam Warburton (CAPT) (Cardiff Blues) (67 Caps)
Scrum Half Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (17 Caps) Rhys Webb (Ospreys) (22 Caps) Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) (27 Caps)
Fly Half Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues) (8 Caps) Dan Biggar (Ospreys) (48 Caps) Sam Davies (Ospreys) (UNCAPPED)
Centre Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (56 Caps) Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons) (3 Caps) Jamie Roberts* (Harlequins) (83 Caps) Scott Williams (Scarlets) (38 Caps)
Wing/Full Back Hallam Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons) (10 Caps) Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues) (42 Caps) Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) (62 Caps) George North* (Northampton Saints) (62 Caps) Liam Williams (Scarlets) (35 Caps) * Denotes Senior Player Selection Policy wildcard selection.
Ospreys wing Keelan Giles, Cardiff Blues full-back Rhun Williams and Dragons pair Leon Brown and Harrison Keddie will train with the Wales squad.  

June summer tour
Tonga 6 - 24 Wales
Samoa 17 - 19 Wales

[munkian]

You seem to be taking this very personally, twas merely correcting your mistake.

[mikey_dragon]

Squad updates (ins and outs) for those that might have missed it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37777245

[maestegmafia]

Cory Hill is an interesting selection. He has been playing reasonably well.

[munkian]

Cory Hill is an interesting selection. He has been playing reasonably well.

Got to be too lightweight for an International lock though ?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'd guess he's heavier than Andrew Coombs (although he wasn't an out-and-out lock).

[munkian]

I'd guess he's heavier than Andrew Coombs (although he wasn't an out-and-out lock).

True.

[mikey_dragon]

Going by his Dragons stats I don't think he's too small at all, but these days he probably does count as one of the 'smaller' locks - at least when he's stood next to South Africans anyway, in which case I would expect a higher work rate of him. I believe his work rate is good but he doesn't seem that well conditioned so it sorta drops off at the end of a league game. If the national team are selecting players like Hill then it tells me they want team Wales to do more attacking around the fringes and guys like Hill are good at that.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Doesn't Kingsley think he's too short?

[wayne]

Posted on the Irish Squad page, but deserves to be put on here, out of 15 Ulster and Munster players selected for the Irish squad, 7 have been released back to their Regions for their Derby match tomorrow night, plus Ian Henderson and Keith Earls are both out for various reasons, so that is 3/5ths allowed back, our Regions are allowed a measly 4 out of the true squad and they've also taken a few other Regional players for whatever reason, there could be many players allowed back to us (Regions) and it would not affect the TW squad in any way.

Thoughts

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It shows that although Roger's gone, there's still a lot of work to be done.

I don't believe thousands more people would turn up for derbies if all the Test players were playing, and I don't believe thousands are going to stay away just because the Test players aren't playing, but these are meaningful league games with points up for grabs, and the WRU has tied the hands of the regions' coaches.

[Guest]

Going by his Dragons stats [...]

Dangerous precedent here.

Do you not have a photograph with the Dragons lined up angled away from the photographer's position we could perhaps refer to for definitive "proof" of his height? If some of the players are bowing their heads, or have their knees bent, even better.

[Guest]

It shows that the weighting between international and club rugby is more swayed to the former in Wales than it is in Ireland? The regions are designed and exist primarily for the benefit of the Test team. Without going over regionalism, we know that in Ireland they were able to draw boundaries along historical lines and create well supported and historical regions/provinces that could be competitive in the professional age.

In spite of the Union ownership in Ireland, they treat their provinces better than the privately owned regions: what does that say in terms of who holds the power in Wales? The IRFU recognises the need- both moral and financial, presumably- in keeping the provinces as viable and competitve as possible. There's no such symbiosis in Wales. The Millennium will still sell out regardless of the dirge the regions produce. There's no need to try to have one or two of the regions be successful in the European Cup: this lack seemingly doesn't really detract from the players' performances when playing for Wales, and if anything, the extra game time at a high intensity leads to more injuries, something Wales can ill afford having such poor player depth.

If I were a cynic, I'd say that perhaps the WRU enjoys the regions being semi-competitive, if you can call it that, as they are now. It benefits the national team. The realist in me says their position is one more of ambivalence, which ironically seems to be most Welsh peoples' attitudes to the regions. Make no mistake, Welsh rugby is under some serious medium term threat. Other than match days in Cardiff, football is the national sport, and I do not believe that the academy system alone can keep Wales at the top table. For a small country, we are reliant on playing numbers, for the grassroots to drive a culture whereby core skills are competitively fostered alongside the community aspect of the game. By cherry picking an academy system that works in NZ or England which have vastly different contexts to Wales, you're utterly reliant on extremely taleneted individuals to come through at once, and for them to not slip through the cracks one way or the other. The alternative is to make as many 'good' players as good as they can be, and for them to be the core of paid rugby players in Wales. Add in international talent, and you have a system that benefits both Wales and its clubs. If that means a Cuddy equivalent, so be it for the short term, but regional rugby is very much moving further and further away from that likelihood, it's simply not a viable investment. It's shocking that derby games are relegated to such peripheral affairs, how quickly the club game in Wales has died since the initial benefits (and continuing, in some cases) of regionalism.

I think Wales will do pretty well in the Autumn. The way the All Blacks have played, you have to say- even though they were obviously rusty in the Summer- Wales did alright against them with their own tacked together team, some of whom were either out of their depth of out on their feet. It's not out of the question to win all four games, but I don't know if the established players have the drive in them to self motivate themselves, against Australia in particular. It doesn't help that there aren't a good crop of young players pushing through and asking questions. Aside from Warburton at 7, there are very few positions where anyone out of form is in real danger of being deselected or rotated due to in form and quality back ups. It's part of the problem of having barely competitive regions.

[Guest]

Good points miaow. I do wonder quite often how much the WRU really want a strong regional scene, like you say.

Just as an aside, your point about 'National Sport': it generally has nothing to do with playing numbers or popularity, which can fluctuate by sport over the years and would result in national sport changing constantly. National sport is more ingrained, cultural, etc. Pretty much every country in the world has football as no.1 participation sport, even NZ, but we know that for many of these countries other sports are their 'national sport'. NZ has rugby, so do we apparently, Argentina I think has something like polo even though they are football mad, etc.

[Guest]

I agree on the national sport tag to an extent. My point is that the historical lineage that gets children into rugby may be disrupted, for plenty of reasons. One of those is the changing face of culture and politics, and the role sport plays in society has to change and adapt to this. We've already seen, and bemoaned, much of this. Children playing computer games, or having other digital distractions, the loss of facilities and community clubs, the pressure put on children to start their 'C.V.s' early, and rugby now has to compete with a whole host of other sports that entice children. You then also have to deal with the more literal, immediate aspects of politics, which- in the U.K.- seem to have a mantra of inclusion and fitness over sporting competitiveness, which is admirable, but manifests itself in M.P.'s coming out and asking for tackling to be banned in rugby.

If schools are unable to foster competitiveness, then that relies on the clubs, but the impression I get is that they seem to be fighting fire a lot of the time, both monetarily and in terms of playing numbers. In my view, and others can contest this, I think playing numbers are paramount. There's no greater feeling than playing rugby with the people you grow up with and live near by to, and this 'togetherness' and team identity isn't quite replicated by cherry picked pathway to elite rugby. I think a weak/disparate grassroots game circumnavigated by the academy system can only exist as a medium term option. To cultivate a healthy grassroots game, you need that old Blairite phrase of 'aspiration', but in this sense it merely means something for children to look up. I think the WRU is putting all its eggs in the Wales basket, as in children will continue wanting to play rugby because they idolise the naitonal players, and aside from those in Swansea, Llanelli, and perhaps Newport and Cardiff as well, it doesn't matter if they don't really have a clear link and idolatry of a club team and its players.

It's the kind of dangerous thinking that holds what goes in South Wales applies to the rest of the country, when- as I said- above Brecon, and large parts benath it too, aside from when Wales are playing in Cardiff, football is by all measures the national sport.

The danger is that the WRU tends to rely on Team Wales as a cow to be milked in every sense, whilst ignoring the need to supplement the wider farm. I'm not saying that interest or support for Wales is under threat in the next decade or so, but in the long term, who knows.

The point of idolatry is important. Sticking just to sport, football is far, far better at inspiring children. The glamour of Swansea in the Premier League wipes the floor with rugby, and even the Ospreys in their galactico days don't really come close. Looking solely at this Summer, when (even considering the novelty of it) the country stopped to watch Wales at the Euro's, whilst the rugby players down in NZ were something of a sideshow, it can't be dismissed as not a genuine threat. If more and more children want to grow up as Gareth Bale rather than Shane Williams, because they have access to Premier League football either via Swansea (or even Cardiff eventually?) or through supporting Man Utd or Liverpool, topped up by the media dedicated to football, playing as their heroes on FIFA etc., how can a dire product in the Pro12 compete? It can't, and so rugby is reliant on Wales fighting against both international football, and the club game. It seems unsustainable, and so getting children playing is paramount, as getting them into the game early will likely keep them in there for life, make them supporters of their local club, and hopefully region as well (forget the valleys, North/Mid Wales needs representation). If you break that historic link, and keep it weak as the WRU seems happy to do, then who knows what the picture will look like in 30, 40, 50 years' time? Who knows what geopolitical position Wales and the United Kingdom will have, and who knows what work-life balance there will be, but if professional sport becomes more and more commodified, and people encouraged to consume it rather than engage in it, then it lends itself to a monopoly, and that means Welsh rugby loses, because there's already a glaring gap between England that is in danger of becoming too wide to bridge.

England can maintain rugby as well as football because of their monetary wealth based in the populous South East and the history and status as part of establishment. Rugby is engrained in the school system in England, and the boarding and private schools will continue to churn out a culture and enough players who benefit from the elite pathway that the academy system provides. In Wales, if the club game becomes disparate and broken, with a severence between the community and pro club game (even if just as something for children to 'support' in the short term), then it will always be a game of catch up if they go down the academy route, because it takes the best players away from their friends, which has the knock on effect of disenfranchising those left behind, and the standard there declines as a result. With more and more 'distractions' in terms of other opportunities both comunally and individually, why continue to play rugby, when there isn't the same vibrancy in the club game as there is in football?

I think rugby's position as the national sport is under threat in Wales precisely because rugby is an afterthought, and certainly secondary to football, in much of the country, until Wales are playing. Aside from the Six Nations, RWC, and to a less extent AIs and Summer Tours, most people don't want to know. And that doesn't mean it can't be the national sport. Merely my point is that football has crept into the weekly, or even everday, gap that has been left by declining club rugby. Swansea City have gone from the fourth tier of English Football to (in the very recent past) being one of the best footballing teams in the U.K., with Cesc Fabregas lauding them when at Barcelona. I'd hazard a guess and say that the combined home attendances of Swansea and Cardiff Football clubs surpass the combined total of all pro and semi-pro rugby clubs in Wales? It's an unsustainable model that Team Wales alone cannot hope to sustain forever, particularly if the FAW develops on this golden generation, and qualifies for a few more tournaments.

The scenario goes likes this: lower numbers of grassroots players means a decline in overall standard of rugby players. The academy system is forced to 'fast track' the best players, but if they don't make the grade, Wales must look across the globe, or employ mercenaries, to keep them competitive with France and England, let alone SANZAAR. Lack of identification with mercenaries will lead some to question to intense, partisan nature of supporting Wales. If the Welsh national team is in decline for long enough (think 80's and 90's), what function does it provide? Will people turn up to watch Wales be beaten by Italy and Scotland at home? In the same numbers? For the same ticket prices? When rugby is no longer the thing everyone does because it's one of the few leisure activities to do, when it's no longer the only thing to 'consume' as a supporter, if Wales aren't very good, I'm not sure people will stand by them as they did in the 80's and 90's. Having lost the grassroots, if this does ever happen, then it's curtains, and it makes the rebuilding process all the more harder, and we'll have to wait for another Graham Henry type figure to stop the rot and rebuild it all again, all because of the lack of foresight from the WRU.

Without evoking Godwin's Law before anyone's replied, whoever "wins" the children will win the future. Much of what I've said above is already in evidence, and it requires a change of direction to stop what I see as what could be a terminal decline for Wales from the top tier of what is now an expanding global sport. The counter to that is to argue whether Wales have a natural right to be at that top tier? Should we get used to being the underdogs against the supreme natural talents of the Fijians and Samoans? Should we accept that a country of 3.5m should inevitably slide away to the might of 350m, and the welathiest nation in the world? Ask the Hungarian national football team.

I'm happy to debate the definition of what makes a national sport. But as for rugby's place as something sacred in Wales, I feel that's been in decline for a while, and is in real danger of being lost as cultural Anglocentrism (Americanisation?) seeps into Wales as it does much of the world. I don't think Welsh rugby in its current state as one of the best teams in the world can survive alongside fervent football support in Wales where it can in other countries.

[Guest]

Again, I agree with a lot of what you say. But national sport doesn't tend to fluctuate during times of feast or famine for the sport. It doesn't change. The national sort of England is cricket, for example. Even though, as you say, football probably does more to inspire children than any other sport. And even though cricket has much lower participation than other sports in England (at a guess).

Yes, rugby needs to do more from a participation point of view. Yes, we're at risk of losing youngsters to football and that is bad from a purely selfish rugby fan perspective. But from a national sport point of view it doesn't need to do more because, well...it will remain the national sport regardless. We don't get to decide!

But I feel I'm derailing the OP slightly now. Back on track: Cory Hill is an odd call for me. I've felt in the recent past that he's not good enough to play for the Dragons, let alone play for Wales. So getting a Wales call up surprises me. Are we really that stuck for locks?

[Guest]

I suppose I disagree on the definition then. I don't think cricket is England's national sport anymore, I would say that is definitely football. Perhaps I'm using the term in a less static manner than the historic use of it, but for me, if such a term isn't flexible to reflect the country as it is, rather than as it was, then it's sort of redundant.

But agree, back to Wales. I'd say Cory Hill's probably in on the basis of some good gym and judo work. You know, the kind of stats that used to get Rob McCusker and Josh Turnbull called up a couple of years ago. Also, the strength in depth just isn't there, so you're probably right, we are stuck.

[munkian]

I'm pretty sure we are stuck with the 4th AI for another year or two due to Woger's Under Armour sponsorship deal.

I'd like to see two 'Judgement Days' so its not always the same teams losing home advantage.

[exile jack]

It shows that the weighting between international and club rugby is more swayed to the former in Wales than it is in Ireland? The regions are designed and exist primarily for the benefit of the Test team. Without going over regionalism, we know that in Ireland they were able to draw boundaries along historical lines and create well supported and historical regions/provinces that could be competitive in the professional age.

In spite of the Union ownership in Ireland, they treat their provinces better than the privately owned regions: what does that say in terms of who holds the power in Wales? The IRFU recognises the need- both moral and financial, presumably- in keeping the provinces as viable and competitve as possible. There's no such symbiosis in Wales. The Millennium will still sell out regardless of the dirge the regions produce. There's no need to try to have one or two of the regions be successful in the European Cup: this lack seemingly doesn't really detract from the players' performances when playing for Wales, and if anything, the extra game time at a high intensity leads to more injuries, something Wales can ill afford having such poor player depth.

If I were a cynic, I'd say that perhaps the WRU enjoys the regions being semi-competitive, if you can call it that, as they are now. It benefits the national team. The realist in me says their position is one more of ambivalence, which ironically seems to be most Welsh peoples' attitudes to the regions. Make no mistake, Welsh rugby is under some serious medium term threat. Other than match days in Cardiff, football is the national sport, and I do not believe that the academy system alone can keep Wales at the top table. For a small country, we are reliant on playing numbers, for the grassroots to drive a culture whereby core skills are competitively fostered alongside the community aspect of the game. By cherry picking an academy system that works in NZ or England which have vastly different contexts to Wales, you're utterly reliant on extremely taleneted individuals to come through at once, and for them to not slip through the cracks one way or the other. The alternative is to make as many 'good' players as good as they can be, and for them to be the core of paid rugby players in Wales. Add in international talent, and you have a system that benefits both Wales and its clubs. If that means a Cuddy equivalent, so be it for the short term, but regional rugby is very much moving further and further away from that likelihood, it's simply not a viable investment. It's shocking that derby games are relegated to such peripheral affairs, how quickly the club game in Wales has died since the initial benefits (and continuing, in some cases) of regionalism.

I think Wales will do pretty well in the Autumn. The way the All Blacks have played, you have to say- even though they were obviously rusty in the Summer- Wales did alright against them with their own tacked together team, some of whom were either out of their depth of out on their feet. It's not out of the question to win all four games, but I don't know if the established players have the drive in them to self motivate themselves, against Australia in particular. It doesn't help that there aren't a good crop of young players pushing through and asking questions. Aside from Warburton at 7, there are very few positions where anyone out of form is in real danger of being deselected or rotated due to in form and quality back ups. It's part of the problem of having barely competitive regions.

Very good post.I'm afraid that being in NZ in the Summer has made me a cynic about the state of Welsh rugby.I'm not sure now that enjoyment in professional sport is possible anymore without consistent success and in that regard Welsh rugby is unsuccessful at regional and international level.What that tour to NZ revealed is that our core skills aren't good enough,we have no strength in depth,some players are not of international standard and picking players on reputation rather than form is just one of many failings of the Welsh coaching team.Perhaps the team will surprise us moving forward but we have been going backwards since 2011.

[wayne]

I'm pretty sure we are stuck with the 4th AI for another year or two due to Woger's Under Armour sponsorship deal.

I'd like to see two 'Judgement Days' so its not always the same teams losing home advantage.

Munkian, I don't know about the team down West, but from conversations I've had with influential people within the Ospreys organisation, we'll NEVER agree to one of our home matches being held at the PS, because of loss of revenue from our hospitality packages. Even this weekends game has practically sold out in that section.

[munkian]

Ospreys out for themselves shocker

[wayne]

Ospreys out for themselves shocker

And why wouldn't they, it is only business, Why don't you lot get the same facilities and you could then say no to the WRU. It is obviously in the financial interest of both Cardiff Blues and Newport Gwent Dragons to take the WRU offer but NOT the Ospreys and Scarlets.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I wish the Dragons would say the same about Judgement Day so that we get a genuine home game. This season we led the Scarlets away before ballsing it up in typical Dragons fashion, and it was gutting to have lost, but all the worse knowing that the return match would be at a neutral venue.

[munkian]

We are over a barrell - we have no monies.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I know we do well out of it financially, but I don't believe we'd go bankrupt if we played that one game at home - it's still a derby game, so we'd get a good crowd. Scarlets fans travel in numbers.

[munkian]

I know we do well out of it financially, but I don't believe we'd go bankrupt if we played that one game at home - it's still a derby game, so we'd get a good crowd. Scarlets fans travel in numbers.

Well, they are all related..


Im not so sure about the bankruptcy - if we don't get new investors we are circling the drain.

[wayne]

I agree on the national sport tag to an extent. My point is that the historical lineage that gets children into rugby may be disrupted, for plenty of reasons. One of those is the changing face of culture and politics, and the role sport plays in society has to change and adapt to this. We've already seen, and bemoaned, much of this. Children playing computer games, or having other digital distractions, the loss of facilities and community clubs, the pressure put on children to start their 'C.V.s' early, and rugby now has to compete with a whole host of other sports that entice children. You then also have to deal with the more literal, immediate aspects of politics, which- in the U.K.- seem to have a mantra of inclusion and fitness over sporting competitiveness, which is admirable, but manifests itself in M.P.'s coming out and asking for tackling to be banned in rugby.

If schools are unable to foster competitiveness, then that relies on the clubs, but the impression I get is that they seem to be fighting fire a lot of the time, both monetarily and in terms of playing numbers. In my view, and others can contest this, I think playing numbers are paramount. There's no greater feeling than playing rugby with the people you grow up with and live near by to, and this 'togetherness' and team identity isn't quite replicated by cherry picked pathway to elite rugby. I think a weak/disparate grassroots game circumnavigated by the academy system can only exist as a medium term option. To cultivate a healthy grassroots game, you need that old Blairite phrase of 'aspiration', but in this sense it merely means something for children to look up. I think the WRU is putting all its eggs in the Wales basket, as in children will continue wanting to play rugby because they idolise the naitonal players, and aside from those in Swansea, Llanelli, and perhaps Newport and Cardiff as well, it doesn't matter if they don't really have a clear link and idolatry of a club team and its players.

It's the kind of dangerous thinking that holds what goes in South Wales applies to the rest of the country, when- as I said- above Brecon, and large parts benath it too, aside from when Wales are playing in Cardiff, football is by all measures the national sport.

The danger is that the WRU tends to rely on Team Wales as a cow to be milked in every sense, whilst ignoring the need to supplement the wider farm. I'm not saying that interest or support for Wales is under threat in the next decade or so, but in the long term, who knows.

The point of idolatry is important. Sticking just to sport, football is far, far better at inspiring children. The glamour of Swansea in the Premier League wipes the floor with rugby, and even the Ospreys in their galactico days don't really come close. Looking solely at this Summer, when (even considering the novelty of it) the country stopped to watch Wales at the Euro's, whilst the rugby players down in NZ were something of a sideshow, it can't be dismissed as not a genuine threat. If more and more children want to grow up as Gareth Bale rather than Shane Williams, because they have access to Premier League football either via Swansea (or even Cardiff eventually?) or through supporting Man Utd or Liverpool, topped up by the media dedicated to football, playing as their heroes on FIFA etc., how can a dire product in the Pro12 compete? It can't, and so rugby is reliant on Wales fighting against both international football, and the club game. It seems unsustainable, and so getting children playing is paramount, as getting them into the game early will likely keep them in there for life, make them supporters of their local club, and hopefully region as well (forget the valleys, North/Mid Wales needs representation). If you break that historic link, and keep it weak as the WRU seems happy to do, then who knows what the picture will look like in 30, 40, 50 years' time? Who knows what geopolitical position Wales and the United Kingdom will have, and who knows what work-life balance there will be, but if professional sport becomes more and more commodified, and people encouraged to consume it rather than engage in it, then it lends itself to a monopoly, and that means Welsh rugby loses, because there's already a glaring gap between England that is in danger of becoming too wide to bridge.

England can maintain rugby as well as football because of their monetary wealth based in the populous South East and the history and status as part of establishment. Rugby is engrained in the school system in England, and the boarding and private schools will continue to churn out a culture and enough players who benefit from the elite pathway that the academy system provides. In Wales, if the club game becomes disparate and broken, with a severence between the community and pro club game (even if just as something for children to 'support' in the short term), then it will always be a game of catch up if they go down the academy route, because it takes the best players away from their friends, which has the knock on effect of disenfranchising those left behind, and the standard there declines as a result. With more and more 'distractions' in terms of other opportunities both comunally and individually, why continue to play rugby, when there isn't the same vibrancy in the club game as there is in football?

I think rugby's position as the national sport is under threat in Wales precisely because rugby is an afterthought, and certainly secondary to football, in much of the country, until Wales are playing. Aside from the Six Nations, RWC, and to a less extent AIs and Summer Tours, most people don't want to know. And that doesn't mean it can't be the national sport. Merely my point is that football has crept into the weekly, or even everday, gap that has been left by declining club rugby. Swansea City have gone from the fourth tier of English Football to (in the very recent past) being one of the best footballing teams in the U.K., with Cesc Fabregas lauding them when at Barcelona. I'd hazard a guess and say that the combined home attendances of Swansea and Cardiff Football clubs surpass the combined total of all pro and semi-pro rugby clubs in Wales? It's an unsustainable model that Team Wales alone cannot hope to sustain forever, particularly if the FAW develops on this golden generation, and qualifies for a few more tournaments.

The scenario goes likes this: lower numbers of grassroots players means a decline in overall standard of rugby players. The academy system is forced to 'fast track' the best players, but if they don't make the grade, Wales must look across the globe, or employ mercenaries, to keep them competitive with France and England, let alone SANZAAR. Lack of identification with mercenaries will lead some to question to intense, partisan nature of supporting Wales. If the Welsh national team is in decline for long enough (think 80's and 90's), what function does it provide? Will people turn up to watch Wales be beaten by Italy and Scotland at home? In the same numbers? For the same ticket prices? When rugby is no longer the thing everyone does because it's one of the few leisure activities to do, when it's no longer the only thing to 'consume' as a supporter, if Wales aren't very good, I'm not sure people will stand by them as they did in the 80's and 90's. Having lost the grassroots, if this does ever happen, then it's curtains, and it makes the rebuilding process all the more harder, and we'll have to wait for another Graham Henry type figure to stop the rot and rebuild it all again, all because of the lack of foresight from the WRU.

Without evoking Godwin's Law before anyone's replied, whoever "wins" the children will win the future. Much of what I've said above is already in evidence, and it requires a change of direction to stop what I see as what could be a terminal decline for Wales from the top tier of what is now an expanding global sport. The counter to that is to argue whether Wales have a natural right to be at that top tier? Should we get used to being the underdogs against the supreme natural talents of the Fijians and Samoans? Should we accept that a country of 3.5m should inevitably slide away to the might of 350m, and the welathiest nation in the world? Ask the Hungarian national football team.

I'm happy to debate the definition of what makes a national sport. But as for rugby's place as something sacred in Wales, I feel that's been in decline for a while, and is in real danger of being lost as cultural Anglocentrism (Americanisation?) seeps into Wales as it does much of the world. I don't think Welsh rugby in its current state as one of the best teams in the world can survive alongside fervent football support in Wales where it can in other countries.

You like writing essays don't you, let me just say in the late 1950s I was in crowds of 50,000 plus at Ninian Park when Cardiff played Swansea on a couple of occasions, and in the early 60s not far off those figures when City were in the first division.

Rugby even in those days and since was classed as the National sport of Wales, when it was apparent to anybody with their eyes open that there was more interest in Football amongst the general public, so to say it is a recent thing is delusional and to put it down to the exploits of Bale and company, have you never heard of the likes of the Charles brothers, Cliff Jones the Allchurch brothers, and many more like Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Mike England, Jack Kelsey Neville Southall, Kevin Ratcliffe, they were all major players with top english clubs.

The major interests in the sporting public of the last 50 to 60 years has been International Rugby and Club Football, how many years ago was it that to watch Wales football play at the MS and the entry price was £10 and £5 for OAPs and kids, how many of these so called fans would pay the £70 TO £100 that Rugby fans pay aprox, half a dozen times a year, I would venture to say very few.

As for your lack of interest of kids today, tomorrow afternoon I'll be at the Liberty stadium to watch the Dragons match, in the morning of this match there is what is being classed as a Tagfest of under 7s and 8s held under the auspices of the Ospreys at Bryncoch RFC with at least 24 teams participating. These kids will march around the Liberty, and knowing some of the kids that have taken part in previous Tagfests they'll have a great time, I've also been at the Liberty on a number of occasions when differing age groups from U 7s through to U18s have paraded around, and the numbers have been well over a thousand, so to consider it is down to player pathway only is also delusional, there is plenty of interest in these youngsters and long may it continue.

[exile jack]

I agree on the national sport tag to an extent. My point is that the historical lineage that gets children into rugby may be disrupted, for plenty of reasons. One of those is the changing face of culture and politics, and the role sport plays in society has to change and adapt to this. We've already seen, and bemoaned, much of this. Children playing computer games, or having other digital distractions, the loss of facilities and community clubs, the pressure put on children to start their 'C.V.s' early, and rugby now has to compete with a whole host of other sports that entice children. You then also have to deal with the more literal, immediate aspects of politics, which- in the U.K.- seem to have a mantra of inclusion and fitness over sporting competitiveness, which is admirable, but manifests itself in M.P.'s coming out and asking for tackling to be banned in rugby.

If schools are unable to foster competitiveness, then that relies on the clubs, but the impression I get is that they seem to be fighting fire a lot of the time, both monetarily and in terms of playing numbers. In my view, and others can contest this, I think playing numbers are paramount. There's no greater feeling than playing rugby with the people you grow up with and live near by to, and this 'togetherness' and team identity isn't quite replicated by cherry picked pathway to elite rugby. I think a weak/disparate grassroots game circumnavigated by the academy system can only exist as a medium term option. To cultivate a healthy grassroots game, you need that old Blairite phrase of 'aspiration', but in this sense it merely means something for children to look up. I think the WRU is putting all its eggs in the Wales basket, as in children will continue wanting to play rugby because they idolise the naitonal players, and aside from those in Swansea, Llanelli, and perhaps Newport and Cardiff as well, it doesn't matter if they don't really have a clear link and idolatry of a club team and its players.

It's the kind of dangerous thinking that holds what goes in South Wales applies to the rest of the country, when- as I said- above Brecon, and large parts benath it too, aside from when Wales are playing in Cardiff, football is by all measures the national sport.

The danger is that the WRU tends to rely on Team Wales as a cow to be milked in every sense, whilst ignoring the need to supplement the wider farm. I'm not saying that interest or support for Wales is under threat in the next decade or so, but in the long term, who knows.

The point of idolatry is important. Sticking just to sport, football is far, far better at inspiring children. The glamour of Swansea in the Premier League wipes the floor with rugby, and even the Ospreys in their galactico days don't really come close. Looking solely at this Summer, when (even considering the novelty of it) the country stopped to watch Wales at the Euro's, whilst the rugby players down in NZ were something of a sideshow, it can't be dismissed as not a genuine threat. If more and more children want to grow up as Gareth Bale rather than Shane Williams, because they have access to Premier League football either via Swansea (or even Cardiff eventually?) or through supporting Man Utd or Liverpool, topped up by the media dedicated to football, playing as their heroes on FIFA etc., how can a dire product in the Pro12 compete? It can't, and so rugby is reliant on Wales fighting against both international football, and the club game. It seems unsustainable, and so getting children playing is paramount, as getting them into the game early will likely keep them in there for life, make them supporters of their local club, and hopefully region as well (forget the valleys, North/Mid Wales needs representation). If you break that historic link, and keep it weak as the WRU seems happy to do, then who knows what the picture will look like in 30, 40, 50 years' time? Who knows what geopolitical position Wales and the United Kingdom will have, and who knows what work-life balance there will be, but if professional sport becomes more and more commodified, and people encouraged to consume it rather than engage in it, then it lends itself to a monopoly, and that means Welsh rugby loses, because there's already a glaring gap between England that is in danger of becoming too wide to bridge.

England can maintain rugby as well as football because of their monetary wealth based in the populous South East and the history and status as part of establishment. Rugby is engrained in the school system in England, and the boarding and private schools will continue to churn out a culture and enough players who benefit from the elite pathway that the academy system provides. In Wales, if the club game becomes disparate and broken, with a severence between the community and pro club game (even if just as something for children to 'support' in the short term), then it will always be a game of catch up if they go down the academy route, because it takes the best players away from their friends, which has the knock on effect of disenfranchising those left behind, and the standard there declines as a result. With more and more 'distractions' in terms of other opportunities both comunally and individually, why continue to play rugby, when there isn't the same vibrancy in the club game as there is in football?

I think rugby's position as the national sport is under threat in Wales precisely because rugby is an afterthought, and certainly secondary to football, in much of the country, until Wales are playing. Aside from the Six Nations, RWC, and to a less extent AIs and Summer Tours, most people don't want to know. And that doesn't mean it can't be the national sport. Merely my point is that football has crept into the weekly, or even everday, gap that has been left by declining club rugby. Swansea City have gone from the fourth tier of English Football to (in the very recent past) being one of the best footballing teams in the U.K., with Cesc Fabregas lauding them when at Barcelona. I'd hazard a guess and say that the combined home attendances of Swansea and Cardiff Football clubs surpass the combined total of all pro and semi-pro rugby clubs in Wales? It's an unsustainable model that Team Wales alone cannot hope to sustain forever, particularly if the FAW develops on this golden generation, and qualifies for a few more tournaments.

The scenario goes likes this: lower numbers of grassroots players means a decline in overall standard of rugby players. The academy system is forced to 'fast track' the best players, but if they don't make the grade, Wales must look across the globe, or employ mercenaries, to keep them competitive with France and England, let alone SANZAAR. Lack of identification with mercenaries will lead some to question to intense, partisan nature of supporting Wales. If the Welsh national team is in decline for long enough (think 80's and 90's), what function does it provide? Will people turn up to watch Wales be beaten by Italy and Scotland at home? In the same numbers? For the same ticket prices? When rugby is no longer the thing everyone does because it's one of the few leisure activities to do, when it's no longer the only thing to 'consume' as a supporter, if Wales aren't very good, I'm not sure people will stand by them as they did in the 80's and 90's. Having lost the grassroots, if this does ever happen, then it's curtains, and it makes the rebuilding process all the more harder, and we'll have to wait for another Graham Henry type figure to stop the rot and rebuild it all again, all because of the lack of foresight from the WRU.

Without evoking Godwin's Law before anyone's replied, whoever "wins" the children will win the future. Much of what I've said above is already in evidence, and it requires a change of direction to stop what I see as what could be a terminal decline for Wales from the top tier of what is now an expanding global sport. The counter to that is to argue whether Wales have a natural right to be at that top tier? Should we get used to being the underdogs against the supreme natural talents of the Fijians and Samoans? Should we accept that a country of 3.5m should inevitably slide away to the might of 350m, and the welathiest nation in the world? Ask the Hungarian national football team.

I'm happy to debate the definition of what makes a national sport. But as for rugby's place as something sacred in Wales, I feel that's been in decline for a while, and is in real danger of being lost as cultural Anglocentrism (Americanisation?) seeps into Wales as it does much of the world. I don't think Welsh rugby in its current state as one of the best teams in the world can survive alongside fervent football support in Wales where it can in other countries.

You like writing essays don't you, let me just say in the late 1950s I was in crowds of 50,000 plus at Ninian Park when Cardiff played Swansea on a couple of occasions, and in the early 60s not far off those figures when City were in the first division.

Rugby even in those days and since was classed as the National sport of Wales, when it was apparent to anybody with their eyes open that there was more interest in Football amongst the general public, so to say it is a recent thing is delusional and to put it down to the exploits of Bale and company, have you never heard of the likes of the Charles brothers, Cliff Jones the Allchurch brothers, and many more like Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Mike England, Jack Kelsey Neville Southall, Kevin Ratcliffe, they were all major players with top english clubs.

The major interests in the sporting public of the last 50 to 60 years has been International Rugby and Club Football, how many years ago was it that to watch Wales football play at the MS and the entry price was £10 and £5 for OAPs and kids, how many of these so called fans would pay the £70 TO £100 that Rugby fans pay aprox, half a dozen times a year, I would venture to say very few.

As for your lack of interest of kids today, tomorrow afternoon I'll be at the Liberty stadium to watch the Dragons match, in the morning of this match there is what is being classed as a Tagfest of under 7s and 8s held under the auspices of the Ospreys at Bryncoch RFC with at least 24 teams participating. These kids will march around the Liberty, and knowing some of the kids that have taken part in previous Tagfests they'll have a great time, I've also been at the Liberty on a number of occasions when differing age groups from U 7s through to U18s have paraded around, and the numbers have been well over a thousand, so to consider it is down to player pathway only is also delusional, there is plenty of interest in these youngsters and long may it continue.

Wayne,my English grandchildren live in Brighton and they've got Ospreys clothing which they wear to the Aviva games we go to.As they've got older their interest is less now on Ozzie but on the O's playing record.In short,success is important in maintaining youngsters team loyalty particularly as they get older and are asked to pay the going ticket rate.That applies even more to the national teams in my experience.Btw i'm disappointed you've not been asked to play 10 tomorrow in Dan's and Sam's absence.

[wayne]

I agree on the national sport tag to an extent. My point is that the historical lineage that gets children into rugby may be disrupted, for plenty of reasons. One of those is the changing face of culture and politics, and the role sport plays in society has to change and adapt to this. We've already seen, and bemoaned, much of this. Children playing computer games, or having other digital distractions, the loss of facilities and community clubs, the pressure put on children to start their 'C.V.s' early, and rugby now has to compete with a whole host of other sports that entice children. You then also have to deal with the more literal, immediate aspects of politics, which- in the U.K.- seem to have a mantra of inclusion and fitness over sporting competitiveness, which is admirable, but manifests itself in M.P.'s coming out and asking for tackling to be banned in rugby.

If schools are unable to foster competitiveness, then that relies on the clubs, but the impression I get is that they seem to be fighting fire a lot of the time, both monetarily and in terms of playing numbers. In my view, and others can contest this, I think playing numbers are paramount. There's no greater feeling than playing rugby with the people you grow up with and live near by to, and this 'togetherness' and team identity isn't quite replicated by cherry picked pathway to elite rugby. I think a weak/disparate grassroots game circumnavigated by the academy system can only exist as a medium term option. To cultivate a healthy grassroots game, you need that old Blairite phrase of 'aspiration', but in this sense it merely means something for children to look up. I think the WRU is putting all its eggs in the Wales basket, as in children will continue wanting to play rugby because they idolise the naitonal players, and aside from those in Swansea, Llanelli, and perhaps Newport and Cardiff as well, it doesn't matter if they don't really have a clear link and idolatry of a club team and its players.

It's the kind of dangerous thinking that holds what goes in South Wales applies to the rest of the country, when- as I said- above Brecon, and large parts benath it too, aside from when Wales are playing in Cardiff, football is by all measures the national sport.

The danger is that the WRU tends to rely on Team Wales as a cow to be milked in every sense, whilst ignoring the need to supplement the wider farm. I'm not saying that interest or support for Wales is under threat in the next decade or so, but in the long term, who knows.

The point of idolatry is important. Sticking just to sport, football is far, far better at inspiring children. The glamour of Swansea in the Premier League wipes the floor with rugby, and even the Ospreys in their galactico days don't really come close. Looking solely at this Summer, when (even considering the novelty of it) the country stopped to watch Wales at the Euro's, whilst the rugby players down in NZ were something of a sideshow, it can't be dismissed as not a genuine threat. If more and more children want to grow up as Gareth Bale rather than Shane Williams, because they have access to Premier League football either via Swansea (or even Cardiff eventually?) or through supporting Man Utd or Liverpool, topped up by the media dedicated to football, playing as their heroes on FIFA etc., how can a dire product in the Pro12 compete? It can't, and so rugby is reliant on Wales fighting against both international football, and the club game. It seems unsustainable, and so getting children playing is paramount, as getting them into the game early will likely keep them in there for life, make them supporters of their local club, and hopefully region as well (forget the valleys, North/Mid Wales needs representation). If you break that historic link, and keep it weak as the WRU seems happy to do, then who knows what the picture will look like in 30, 40, 50 years' time? Who knows what geopolitical position Wales and the United Kingdom will have, and who knows what work-life balance there will be, but if professional sport becomes more and more commodified, and people encouraged to consume it rather than engage in it, then it lends itself to a monopoly, and that means Welsh rugby loses, because there's already a glaring gap between England that is in danger of becoming too wide to bridge.

England can maintain rugby as well as football because of their monetary wealth based in the populous South East and the history and status as part of establishment. Rugby is engrained in the school system in England, and the boarding and private schools will continue to churn out a culture and enough players who benefit from the elite pathway that the academy system provides. In Wales, if the club game becomes disparate and broken, with a severence between the community and pro club game (even if just as something for children to 'support' in the short term), then it will always be a game of catch up if they go down the academy route, because it takes the best players away from their friends, which has the knock on effect of disenfranchising those left behind, and the standard there declines as a result. With more and more 'distractions' in terms of other opportunities both comunally and individually, why continue to play rugby, when there isn't the same vibrancy in the club game as there is in football?

I think rugby's position as the national sport is under threat in Wales precisely because rugby is an afterthought, and certainly secondary to football, in much of the country, until Wales are playing. Aside from the Six Nations, RWC, and to a less extent AIs and Summer Tours, most people don't want to know. And that doesn't mean it can't be the national sport. Merely my point is that football has crept into the weekly, or even everday, gap that has been left by declining club rugby. Swansea City have gone from the fourth tier of English Football to (in the very recent past) being one of the best footballing teams in the U.K., with Cesc Fabregas lauding them when at Barcelona. I'd hazard a guess and say that the combined home attendances of Swansea and Cardiff Football clubs surpass the combined total of all pro and semi-pro rugby clubs in Wales? It's an unsustainable model that Team Wales alone cannot hope to sustain forever, particularly if the FAW develops on this golden generation, and qualifies for a few more tournaments.

The scenario goes likes this: lower numbers of grassroots players means a decline in overall standard of rugby players. The academy system is forced to 'fast track' the best players, but if they don't make the grade, Wales must look across the globe, or employ mercenaries, to keep them competitive with France and England, let alone SANZAAR. Lack of identification with mercenaries will lead some to question to intense, partisan nature of supporting Wales. If the Welsh national team is in decline for long enough (think 80's and 90's), what function does it provide? Will people turn up to watch Wales be beaten by Italy and Scotland at home? In the same numbers? For the same ticket prices? When rugby is no longer the thing everyone does because it's one of the few leisure activities to do, when it's no longer the only thing to 'consume' as a supporter, if Wales aren't very good, I'm not sure people will stand by them as they did in the 80's and 90's. Having lost the grassroots, if this does ever happen, then it's curtains, and it makes the rebuilding process all the more harder, and we'll have to wait for another Graham Henry type figure to stop the rot and rebuild it all again, all because of the lack of foresight from the WRU.

Without evoking Godwin's Law before anyone's replied, whoever "wins" the children will win the future. Much of what I've said above is already in evidence, and it requires a change of direction to stop what I see as what could be a terminal decline for Wales from the top tier of what is now an expanding global sport. The counter to that is to argue whether Wales have a natural right to be at that top tier? Should we get used to being the underdogs against the supreme natural talents of the Fijians and Samoans? Should we accept that a country of 3.5m should inevitably slide away to the might of 350m, and the welathiest nation in the world? Ask the Hungarian national football team.

I'm happy to debate the definition of what makes a national sport. But as for rugby's place as something sacred in Wales, I feel that's been in decline for a while, and is in real danger of being lost as cultural Anglocentrism (Americanisation?) seeps into Wales as it does much of the world. I don't think Welsh rugby in its current state as one of the best teams in the world can survive alongside fervent football support in Wales where it can in other countries.

You like writing essays don't you, let me just say in the late 1950s I was in crowds of 50,000 plus at Ninian Park when Cardiff played Swansea on a couple of occasions, and in the early 60s not far off those figures when City were in the first division.

Rugby even in those days and since was classed as the National sport of Wales, when it was apparent to anybody with their eyes open that there was more interest in Football amongst the general public, so to say it is a recent thing is delusional and to put it down to the exploits of Bale and company, have you never heard of the likes of the Charles brothers, Cliff Jones the Allchurch brothers, and many more like Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Mike England, Jack Kelsey Neville Southall, Kevin Ratcliffe, they were all major players with top english clubs.

The major interests in the sporting public of the last 50 to 60 years has been International Rugby and Club Football, how many years ago was it that to watch Wales football play at the MS and the entry price was £10 and £5 for OAPs and kids, how many of these so called fans would pay the £70 TO £100 that Rugby fans pay aprox, half a dozen times a year, I would venture to say very few.

As for your lack of interest of kids today, tomorrow afternoon I'll be at the Liberty stadium to watch the Dragons match, in the morning of this match there is what is being classed as a Tagfest of under 7s and 8s held under the auspices of the Ospreys at Bryncoch RFC with at least 24 teams participating. These kids will march around the Liberty, and knowing some of the kids that have taken part in previous Tagfests they'll have a great time, I've also been at the Liberty on a number of occasions when differing age groups from U 7s through to U18s have paraded around, and the numbers have been well over a thousand, so to consider it is down to player pathway only is also delusional, there is plenty of interest in these youngsters and long may it continue.  

Wayne,my English grandchildren live in Brighton and they've got Ospreys clothing which they wear to the Aviva games we go to.As they've got older their interest is less now on Ozzie but on the O's playing record.In short,success is important in maintaining youngsters team loyalty particularly as they get older and are asked to pay the going ticket rate.That applies even more to the national teams in my experience.Btw i'm disappointed you've not been asked to play 10 tomorrow in Dan's and Sam's absence.

Yes Jack success is important, but if anything our pathway process is even better now than in for instance the early part of our Regional existence, and if anything in the very young around this area it is still growing, you only need to see at U16 and 18 level, there are more teams, we have East and West in first team and Development groups, you even have the 3 local colleges Bridgend, Neath and Swansea having a structure.
As a former hooker I couldn't have been further away from that position, but I still had my liniment ready:D

[exile jack]

I agree on the national sport tag to an extent. My point is that the historical lineage that gets children into rugby may be disrupted, for plenty of reasons. One of those is the changing face of culture and politics, and the role sport plays in society has to change and adapt to this. We've already seen, and bemoaned, much of this. Children playing computer games, or having other digital distractions, the loss of facilities and community clubs, the pressure put on children to start their 'C.V.s' early, and rugby now has to compete with a whole host of other sports that entice children. You then also have to deal with the more literal, immediate aspects of politics, which- in the U.K.- seem to have a mantra of inclusion and fitness over sporting competitiveness, which is admirable, but manifests itself in M.P.'s coming out and asking for tackling to be banned in rugby.

If schools are unable to foster competitiveness, then that relies on the clubs, but the impression I get is that they seem to be fighting fire a lot of the time, both monetarily and in terms of playing numbers. In my view, and others can contest this, I think playing numbers are paramount. There's no greater feeling than playing rugby with the people you grow up with and live near by to, and this 'togetherness' and team identity isn't quite replicated by cherry picked pathway to elite rugby. I think a weak/disparate grassroots game circumnavigated by the academy system can only exist as a medium term option. To cultivate a healthy grassroots game, you need that old Blairite phrase of 'aspiration', but in this sense it merely means something for children to look up. I think the WRU is putting all its eggs in the Wales basket, as in children will continue wanting to play rugby because they idolise the naitonal players, and aside from those in Swansea, Llanelli, and perhaps Newport and Cardiff as well, it doesn't matter if they don't really have a clear link and idolatry of a club team and its players.

It's the kind of dangerous thinking that holds what goes in South Wales applies to the rest of the country, when- as I said- above Brecon, and large parts benath it too, aside from when Wales are playing in Cardiff, football is by all measures the national sport.

The danger is that the WRU tends to rely on Team Wales as a cow to be milked in every sense, whilst ignoring the need to supplement the wider farm. I'm not saying that interest or support for Wales is under threat in the next decade or so, but in the long term, who knows.

The point of idolatry is important. Sticking just to sport, football is far, far better at inspiring children. The glamour of Swansea in the Premier League wipes the floor with rugby, and even the Ospreys in their galactico days don't really come close. Looking solely at this Summer, when (even considering the novelty of it) the country stopped to watch Wales at the Euro's, whilst the rugby players down in NZ were something of a sideshow, it can't be dismissed as not a genuine threat. If more and more children want to grow up as Gareth Bale rather than Shane Williams, because they have access to Premier League football either via Swansea (or even Cardiff eventually?) or through supporting Man Utd or Liverpool, topped up by the media dedicated to football, playing as their heroes on FIFA etc., how can a dire product in the Pro12 compete? It can't, and so rugby is reliant on Wales fighting against both international football, and the club game. It seems unsustainable, and so getting children playing is paramount, as getting them into the game early will likely keep them in there for life, make them supporters of their local club, and hopefully region as well (forget the valleys, North/Mid Wales needs representation). If you break that historic link, and keep it weak as the WRU seems happy to do, then who knows what the picture will look like in 30, 40, 50 years' time? Who knows what geopolitical position Wales and the United Kingdom will have, and who knows what work-life balance there will be, but if professional sport becomes more and more commodified, and people encouraged to consume it rather than engage in it, then it lends itself to a monopoly, and that means Welsh rugby loses, because there's already a glaring gap between England that is in danger of becoming too wide to bridge.

England can maintain rugby as well as football because of their monetary wealth based in the populous South East and the history and status as part of establishment. Rugby is engrained in the school system in England, and the boarding and private schools will continue to churn out a culture and enough players who benefit from the elite pathway that the academy system provides. In Wales, if the club game becomes disparate and broken, with a severence between the community and pro club game (even if just as something for children to 'support' in the short term), then it will always be a game of catch up if they go down the academy route, because it takes the best players away from their friends, which has the knock on effect of disenfranchising those left behind, and the standard there declines as a result. With more and more 'distractions' in terms of other opportunities both comunally and individually, why continue to play rugby, when there isn't the same vibrancy in the club game as there is in football?

I think rugby's position as the national sport is under threat in Wales precisely because rugby is an afterthought, and certainly secondary to football, in much of the country, until Wales are playing. Aside from the Six Nations, RWC, and to a less extent AIs and Summer Tours, most people don't want to know. And that doesn't mean it can't be the national sport. Merely my point is that football has crept into the weekly, or even everday, gap that has been left by declining club rugby. Swansea City have gone from the fourth tier of English Football to (in the very recent past) being one of the best footballing teams in the U.K., with Cesc Fabregas lauding them when at Barcelona. I'd hazard a guess and say that the combined home attendances of Swansea and Cardiff Football clubs surpass the combined total of all pro and semi-pro rugby clubs in Wales? It's an unsustainable model that Team Wales alone cannot hope to sustain forever, particularly if the FAW develops on this golden generation, and qualifies for a few more tournaments.

The scenario goes likes this: lower numbers of grassroots players means a decline in overall standard of rugby players. The academy system is forced to 'fast track' the best players, but if they don't make the grade, Wales must look across the globe, or employ mercenaries, to keep them competitive with France and England, let alone SANZAAR. Lack of identification with mercenaries will lead some to question to intense, partisan nature of supporting Wales. If the Welsh national team is in decline for long enough (think 80's and 90's), what function does it provide? Will people turn up to watch Wales be beaten by Italy and Scotland at home? In the same numbers? For the same ticket prices? When rugby is no longer the thing everyone does because it's one of the few leisure activities to do, when it's no longer the only thing to 'consume' as a supporter, if Wales aren't very good, I'm not sure people will stand by them as they did in the 80's and 90's. Having lost the grassroots, if this does ever happen, then it's curtains, and it makes the rebuilding process all the more harder, and we'll have to wait for another Graham Henry type figure to stop the rot and rebuild it all again, all because of the lack of foresight from the WRU.

Without evoking Godwin's Law before anyone's replied, whoever "wins" the children will win the future. Much of what I've said above is already in evidence, and it requires a change of direction to stop what I see as what could be a terminal decline for Wales from the top tier of what is now an expanding global sport. The counter to that is to argue whether Wales have a natural right to be at that top tier? Should we get used to being the underdogs against the supreme natural talents of the Fijians and Samoans? Should we accept that a country of 3.5m should inevitably slide away to the might of 350m, and the welathiest nation in the world? Ask the Hungarian national football team.

I'm happy to debate the definition of what makes a national sport. But as for rugby's place as something sacred in Wales, I feel that's been in decline for a while, and is in real danger of being lost as cultural Anglocentrism (Americanisation?) seeps into Wales as it does much of the world. I don't think Welsh rugby in its current state as one of the best teams in the world can survive alongside fervent football support in Wales where it can in other countries.

You like writing essays don't you, let me just say in the late 1950s I was in crowds of 50,000 plus at Ninian Park when Cardiff played Swansea on a couple of occasions, and in the early 60s not far off those figures when City were in the first division.

Rugby even in those days and since was classed as the National sport of Wales, when it was apparent to anybody with their eyes open that there was more interest in Football amongst the general public, so to say it is a recent thing is delusional and to put it down to the exploits of Bale and company, have you never heard of the likes of the Charles brothers, Cliff Jones the Allchurch brothers, and many more like Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Mike England, Jack Kelsey Neville Southall, Kevin Ratcliffe, they were all major players with top english clubs.

The major interests in the sporting public of the last 50 to 60 years has been International Rugby and Club Football, how many years ago was it that to watch Wales football play at the MS and the entry price was £10 and £5 for OAPs and kids, how many of these so called fans would pay the £70 TO £100 that Rugby fans pay aprox, half a dozen times a year, I would venture to say very few.

As for your lack of interest of kids today, tomorrow afternoon I'll be at the Liberty stadium to watch the Dragons match, in the morning of this match there is what is being classed as a Tagfest of under 7s and 8s held under the auspices of the Ospreys at Bryncoch RFC with at least 24 teams participating. These kids will march around the Liberty, and knowing some of the kids that have taken part in previous Tagfests they'll have a great time, I've also been at the Liberty on a number of occasions when differing age groups from U 7s through to U18s have paraded around, and the numbers have been well over a thousand, so to consider it is down to player pathway only is also delusional, there is plenty of interest in these youngsters and long may it continue.  

Wayne,my English grandchildren live in Brighton and they've got Ospreys clothing which they wear to the Aviva games we go to.As they've got older their interest is less now on Ozzie but on the O's playing record.In short,success is important in maintaining youngsters team loyalty particularly as they get older and are asked to pay the going ticket rate.That applies even more to the national teams in my experience.Btw i'm disappointed you've not been asked to play 10 tomorrow in Dan's and Sam's absence.

Yes Jack success is important, but if anything our pathway process is even better now than in for instance the early part of our Regional existence, and if anything in the very young around this area it is still growing, you only need to see at U16 and 18 level, there are more teams, we have East and West in first team and Development groups, you even have the 3 local colleges Bridgend, Neath and Swansea having a structure.
As a former hooker I couldn't have been further away from that position, but I still had my liniment ready:D

I really admire the O's pathway process.Looks a strongish team tomorrow but disappointed we won't be seeing the ol'Wayne Samoan sidestep.Good old Voltarol!

[wayne]

Jack, if you keep a good lookout and tape the game, there is a good chance you'll see me, as in every home game that has been televised this season I've been on the box a couple of times, as I said further back on the Osprey season topic my brother in laws grandson is the team mascot tomorrow and we sit close to the halfway line.

[wayne]

So, Amos, Lee, Lydiate and WRUburton all sign NDC contract extensions, I can't see how far they extend to, is it 1 yr or long term, not displeased at all about them 4, some of the other deadwood should be removed, to get more deserving cases and homecomers signed up.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Amos is another two seasons after this.

[munkian]

So, Amos, Lee, Lydiate and WRUburton all sign NDC contract extensions, I can't see how far they extend to, is it 1 yr or long term, not displeased at all about them 4, some of the other deadwood should be removed, to get more deserving cases and homecomers signed up.

King and Baker haven't exactly earned theirs. Anscombe isn't exactly the Messiah either.

[Guest]

Rugby even in those days and since was classed as the National sport of Wales, when it was apparent to anybody with their eyes open that there was more interest in Football amongst the general public, so to say it is a recent thing is delusional and to put it down to the exploits of Bale and company, have you never heard of the likes of the Charles brothers, Cliff Jones the Allchurch brothers, and many more like Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Mike England, Jack Kelsey Neville Southall, Kevin Ratcliffe, they were all major players with top english clubs.

You're missing the point I was making entirely. Of course Wales had a brilliant footballing team in the '50's, but it's taken until 2016 for them to qualify for a major tournament. Had they been moderately successful over that time, particularly when Welsh rugby was weak, who knows where the priorities in Wales would lie? The draw of football in the glitz of the Premier League era is simply not analagous to the appeal and role that football and sport in general had over half a century ago. Sport fandom at the top level is now much more an act of consumerism than it is simply community, as evidenced by the fact that sports teams recognise that they are competing for a share of the entertainment market, both in terms of television coverage and audience, but also as a spectacle: why go down to watch one of the regions when you could do one of the other unnumerable things that modern society offers, much of which has been opened up internet. The world is much smaller these days. Why buy a season ticket when you could go visit another country for a similar price instead?

In terms of children, I think that yes, it's fair to say that players like Gareth Bale, and Wilfried Bony etc., have more appeal and star factor than most rugby players for the regions, particularly if you're outside the towns and cities where the 'regions' reside. As much as Wales had great individual footballers, and even great teams at times (I'd argue that the Mark Hughes as manager era team was at least on par with the current crop), you can't dismiss the fact that children will idolise Bale, a genuine superstar in the sporting world, in ways in which the qualities of Neville Southall- a man who tied bin bags around his boots- could simply never translate.

I'm happy to call it something other than "the national sport", if that's a sticking point. Obviously that has historical connotations that make it somewhat static. But as for football and rugby's role in Wales, and in footballing terms, that means the clubs in the North West of England too, I think Welsh rugby is under serious threat. The WRU is milking the Welsh national team, hoping that it alone can sustain Welsh rugby as the professional clubs face irrelevance as the English and French clubs, and to a lesser extent the Irish and Scottish, get themselves in order for the next decade or so. You can contest the fact that international rugby isn't reliant on a strong domestic club game (see the likes of Samoa, or even Argentina) in the short term, but in the medium to long term? It will be devastating across all levels if Welsh club rugby is an afterthought.

The major interests in the sporting public of the last 50 to 60 years has been International Rugby and Club Football, how many years ago was it that to watch Wales football play at the MS and the entry price was £10 and £5 for OAPs and kids, how many of these so called fans would pay the £70 TO £100 that Rugby fans pay aprox, half a dozen times a year, I would venture to say very few.

I absolutely agree. When you have a team that is incapable of comfortably beating Azerbaijan at home, then yes, why go to watch that? Equally, however, if Wales slip down the pecking order in what is a growing global sport, will people continue to turn up and pay those sums of money if they're persistently battered by France and England in the 6N, and regularly lose against Samoa or the USA? It's not going to happen anytime soon, but it's a very real possibility in 20 or 30 years' time if the club game and a culture around that isn't protected. I don't think it's that drastic, but it's definitely a reasonable possibility if Welsh rugby is mismanaged.

As for your lack of interest of kids today, tomorrow afternoon I'll be at the Liberty stadium to watch the Dragons match, in the morning of this match there is what is being classed as a Tagfest of under 7s and 8s held under the auspices of the Ospreys at Bryncoch RFC with at least 24 teams participating. These kids will march around the Liberty, and knowing some of the kids that have taken part in previous Tagfests they'll have a great time, I've also been at the Liberty on a number of occasions when differing age groups from U 7s through to U18s have paraded around, and the numbers have been well over a thousand, so to consider it is down to player pathway only is also delusional, there is plenty of interest in these youngsters and long may it continue.

Absolutely, long may it continue. I'm not saying this is that is in danger of happening soon. But the rotten roots are in evidence, and it shouldn't be dismissed as completely out of the question.

As far as I can tell, I see across much of the country the historic towns and villages in economic decline. Market towns are becoming places to be bypassed, independent shops are closing in the smaller villages, and towns are reliant on multinational or franchies coming in and filling the void, all within the largest, centralised town within that area. Likewise, many rugby clubs are folding, or have folded, due to lack of playing numbers and finance. At the very least, a lot of the clubs have lost their youth teams at various ages. There are obviously hubs within Wales within the South East and South where rugby is still doing well. But in other areas it is not. The danger in the historically strong areas of Wales is that Swansea becomes a football City like Cardiff already is. You could argue it already is, in professional terms. Cardiff is like the London of Wales, in that it's a honeypot of wealth, and everything near it will eventually become commuter satellite towns, if they aren't already. You remove that culture of individualism in towns and cities, if they are weakened for the benefit of a large City that booms from the wealth of neoliberalism, then some of that culture will rub off, and primarily that culture is an Anglo-American one of work and consume. If that's the way it goes, then Welsh football- as we saw this Summer!- will have more money and appeal behind it in terms of media and advertising etc. (neoliberal consumer culture) than rugby has. This is obviously the case for the clubs, if not (yet) in the long term the case for the football team.

If you're therefore losing the kind of pathwork quilt of smaller rugby clubs over large parts of Wales, in terms of lots of children playing, and therefore the standard when they become teenagers being better than if there were fewer, whilst also in threat of professional club rugby at the top level being swamped by the far superior product of Premier League football, why should the children being born today go on to play rugby? It's a distinct possiblity that- with Bale and Ramsey quite possible dragging Wales to the World Cup- we could be creating a generation dreaming of lifting the Jules Rimet rather than the William Webb Ellis, as fanciful as either scenarios are for Wales at the moment.

The picture's not as bad as I've painted, but that is a sort of worst case scenario of mismanagement from the WRU. There are enough pressures and external threats to domestic club rugby in Wales without hampering it even further by having non competitive regions who seem to be treading water, waiting for something to happen, good or bad. I don't think the WRU is solely to blame, but it now is in effect in control of the regions despite their (mostly) private management, so has to take responsibility. If the regions were able to bankroll themselves as Cuddy did with the Ospreys, then fine, the WRU concentrates on the grassroots as it does now, and the regions remain competitive as a spectacle of entertainment, and the children will want to come from outside Swansea, Cardiff, Llanelli, and Newport to see the likes of Justin Marshall and Regan King play against the best teams of Europe and actually be competitive. But that's not going to happen.

[Guest]

So, Amos, Lee, Lydiate and WRUburton all sign NDC contract extensions, I can't see how far they extend to, is it 1 yr or long term, not displeased at all about them 4, some of the other deadwood should be removed, to get more deserving cases and homecomers signed up.

King and Baker haven't exactly earned theirs. Anscombe isn't exactly the Messiah either.

Think King's done alright.

I think this highlights one the problems with them though, in terms of meritocratic selection. The coaching team hasn't been great with "fast tracking" talented hopefuls into the squad environment: Howells, Prydie, Phillips etc., all expected to do great things, called up before they really deserved it, on the basis of promise.

This is the same sort of thing. But do you reserve these contracts solely for the Warburtons and Biggars within Wales? It's a messy, half measure between centralised contracts and privately or community run clubs. If Steve Shingler started outplaying Anscombe for the next season or two, how would he feel about Anscombe being on a NDC, do you think? How would it hamper his chances of selection, both for the Blues and for Wales? It's a really risky process, giving them to players who you suspect will "make it": Rhodri Jones is a prime example of where they got it wrong.

[wayne]

So, Amos, Lee, Lydiate and WRUburton all sign NDC contract extensions, I can't see how far they extend to, is it 1 yr or long term, not displeased at all about them 4, some of the other deadwood should be removed, to get more deserving cases and homecomers signed up.

King and Baker haven't exactly earned theirs. Anscombe isn't exactly the Messiah either.

Munkian, you only have to look through my posts to see the number of our (Ospreys) players that didn't deserve the NDC in the first place, but funnily enough you don't mention the one player that even your fans say shouldn't be in the Welsh squad on this seasons form Tyler Morgan, at least both of the players that you did mention have started to play very well in the last couple of months. James King in particular although Bedford Welsh won't agree with that.

The main reason I was against some of our players and a few others was that there was no likelihood of some of these being enticed out of Wales, and that IMO is what this money should be used for.

[wayne]

Amos is another two seasons after this.

Thanks LP, do you know the timescale of any of the others?

[munkian]

So, Amos, Lee, Lydiate and WRUburton all sign NDC contract extensions, I can't see how far they extend to, is it 1 yr or long term, not displeased at all about them 4, some of the other deadwood should be removed, to get more deserving cases and homecomers signed up.

King and Baker haven't exactly earned theirs. Anscombe isn't exactly the Messiah either.

Munkian, you only have to look through my posts to see the number of our (Ospreys) players that didn't deserve the NDC in the first place, but funnily enough you don't mention the one player that even your fans say shouldn't be in the Welsh squad on this seasons form Tyler Morgan, at least both of the players that you did mention have started to play very well in the last couple of months. James King in particular although Bedford Welsh won't agree with that.

The main reason I was against some of our players and a few others was that there was no likelihood of some of these being enticed out of Wales, and that IMO is what this money should be used for.  

The fact that they are Ospreys didn't cross my mind, get your arse out of your hands old boy. Can Baker tackle yet ?

Morgan has stagnated a little but hasn't really been injury free enough for a run of games to find form.

[wayne]

So, Amos, Lee, Lydiate and WRUburton all sign NDC contract extensions, I can't see how far they extend to, is it 1 yr or long term, not displeased at all about them 4, some of the other deadwood should be removed, to get more deserving cases and homecomers signed up.

King and Baker haven't exactly earned theirs. Anscombe isn't exactly the Messiah either.

Munkian, you only have to look through my posts to see the number of our (Ospreys) players that didn't deserve the NDC in the first place, but funnily enough you don't mention the one player that even your fans say shouldn't be in the Welsh squad on this seasons form Tyler Morgan, at least both of the players that you did mention have started to play very well in the last couple of months. James King in particular although Bedford Welsh won't agree with that.

The main reason I was against some of our players and a few others was that there was no likelihood of some of these being enticed out of Wales, and that IMO is what this money should be used for.  

The fact that they are Ospreys didn't cross my mind, get your arse out of your hands old boy. Can Baker tackle yet ?

Morgan has stagnated a little but hasn't really been injury free enough for a run of games to find form.

Well out of 3 players that you mentioned why are 2 Ospreys, and funnily enough 2 that have started this season very well, and personally I think Anscombe has earned that NDC, it is all about opinion and I think Gatland has been vindicated in the way he has played this season.

[RiscaGame]

Can people stop replying to Miaow via quoting? I blocked him so I could scroll down a page without having to get past his marathon posts. Though the irony of Wayne mentioning it and then writing a relatively long one was funny too.

[wayne]

Can people stop replying to Miaow via quoting? I blocked him so I could scroll down a page without having to get past his marathon posts. Though the irony of Wayne mentioning it and then writing a relatively long one was funny too.

Yes you are right Rev, mine wasn't near as long as his, but I've learnt my lesson.
Thanks

[Guest]

I enjoy reading Miaow's posts. Much better than a lot of tripe written on here. There used to be other posters who wrote nice long well thought out posts, e.g. Red Stag, etc. However, they've been replaced by posters who just post one line wonders and chat schidt.

However, yes quoting the whole thing makes it a bit of a chore to scroll through!

[mikey_dragon]

So, Amos, Lee, Lydiate and WRUburton all sign NDC contract extensions, I can't see how far they extend to, is it 1 yr or long term, not displeased at all about them 4, some of the other deadwood should be removed, to get more deserving cases and homecomers signed up.

King and Baker haven't exactly earned theirs. Anscombe isn't exactly the Messiah either.

Munkian, you only have to look through my posts to see the number of our (Ospreys) players that didn't deserve the NDC in the first place, but funnily enough you don't mention the one player that even your fans say shouldn't be in the Welsh squad on this seasons form Tyler Morgan, at least both of the players that you did mention have started to play very well in the last couple of months. James King in particular although Bedford Welsh won't agree with that.

The main reason I was against some of our players and a few others was that there was no likelihood of some of these being enticed out of Wales, and that IMO is what this money should be used for.  

The fact that they are Ospreys didn't cross my mind, get your arse out of your hands old boy. Can Baker tackle yet ?

Morgan has stagnated a little but hasn't really been injury free enough for a run of games to find form.

I think he has been, but he just wasn't getting picked...

[ScarletSpiderman]

I'm pretty sure we are stuck with the 4th AI for another year or two due to Woger's Under Armour sponsorship deal.

I'd like to see two 'Judgement Days' so its not always the same teams losing home advantage.

Munkian, I don't know about the team down West, but from conversations I've had with influential people within the Ospreys organisation, we'll NEVER agree to one of our home matches being held at the PS, because of loss of revenue from our hospitality packages. Even this weekends game has practically sold out in that section.

I have heard similar myself with regards the Scarlets. Not so much that it would lose us hospitality, but more to do with the logistical situation of trying to get to Cardiff on public transport from vast areas of the region.

[maestegmafia]

I'm pretty sure we are stuck with the 4th AI for another year or two due to Woger's Under Armour sponsorship deal.

I'd like to see two 'Judgement Days' so its not always the same teams losing home advantage.

Munkian, I don't know about the team down West, but from conversations I've had with influential people within the Ospreys organisation, we'll NEVER agree to one of our home matches being held at the PS, because of loss of revenue from our hospitality packages. Even this weekends game has practically sold out in that section.

I have heard similar myself with regards the Scarlets.  Not so much that it would lose us hospitality, but more to do with the logistical situation of trying to get to Cardiff on public transport from vast areas of the region.

Maybe a judgement day in Parc Eirias...?

[bedfordwelsh]

Wayne,

Just noticed my name mentioned in vain but I agree with what you said about me not agreeing lol.

Firstly I will say I am always happy to be proved wrong and if King does that then fair play Ill hold my hand up but I still haven't seen anything to warrant his regular inclusions in previous squads.

We all see different players in differing light and will never all agree on who should or shouldn't be in the team but good luck to them all and as mentioned I hope they all prove me wrong.

[maestegmafia]

Interesting read on players not selected

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/stars-future-wales-fringe-players-12096882

[mikey_dragon]

Jiffy and Martyn aren't far off with their picks, but I'll make a few alterations for that Aus game.

Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee, Charteris, AWJ(c), Moriarty, Tipuric, Baker - Webb, Biggar, North, Williams, JD2, Halfpenny, L.Williams.
Bench - Owens, Smith, Francis, B.Davies, Warburton, G.Davies, Anscombe, Roberts.

[True Raven]

Wayne,

Just noticed my name mentioned in vain but I agree with what you said about me not agreeing lol.

Firstly I will say I am always happy to be proved wrong and if King does that then fair play Ill hold my hand up but I still haven't seen anything to warrant his regular inclusions in previous squads.

We all see different players in differing light and will never all agree on who should or shouldn't be in the team but good luck to them all and as mentioned I hope they all prove me wrong.

I think King is a player who has a massive work rate and makes the tackles and always gives 100% and it tends to be the supporters of that club who appreciate. He's a bit like Lewis Evans or Josh Navidi who I both think are average pro12 players but their own supporters rate them or someone like Faletau as I'm staggered that fans of other countries don't rate him whereas in Wales we know he's the best 8 in Europe. I guess king is in the same mold. (I prefer him instead of Lydiate if I'm honest)

[Guest]

Interesting documentary that I hadn't seen before. Neatly links into what I was saying (admittedly at quite long length) above. Ignore it if you want, but feel it feels like it's coming around to be relevant again, the stagnation with focusing on the top under Gatland, looking for a messiah etc., not sorting out the systems underneath, football on the up.

Also strangely prescient how Gareth Bale and Sam Warburton are playing heads with each other. Creepy coincidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw2K-O1NLFo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4bnTNaNTro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuY0oVVP91s

Think it largely gets everything about right, despite the annoying affectation of that narrator...and Max Boyce.

(Also, quite sad how rugby does have to sell itself as a commodity. There is a purity in amateurism.)

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