Bordeaux Begles v Ulster Rugby

First topic message reminder :

Bordeaux Begles v Ulster

Champions Cup Pool 5
Stade Chaban-Delmas
16th October 2016, 13:00 Kick off GMT
Live on Sky Sports

Referee JP Doyle (England)
Touch Judge 1 John Meredith (England)
Touch Judge 2 Peter Allan (England)
TMO Graham Hughes (England)
Citing Commissioner John Montgomery (Scotland)

Teams
Bordeaux
15 Jean-Marcellin Buttin, 14 Adam Ashley-Cooper, 13 Jean-Baptiste Dubié, 12 Romain Lonca, 11 Blair Connor, 10 Ian Madigan, 9 Yann Lesgourgues, 8 Loann Goujon, 7 Hugh Chalmers, 6 Luke Jones, 5 Cyril Cazeaux, 4 Jandré Marais (c), 3 Vadim Cobilas, 2 Clément Maynadier, 1 Jefferson Poirot
Replacements: 16 Ole Avei, 17 Sébastien Taofifenua, 18 Marc Clerc, 19 Tom Palmer, 20 Marco Tauleigne, 21 Baptiste Serin, 22 Lionel Beauxis, 23 Metuisela Talebula

Ulster
(15-9): Jared Payne, Andrew Trimble (captain), Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Craig Gilroy, Paddy Jackson, Ruan Pienaar;
(1-8): Andy Warwick, Rory Best, Rodney Ah You, Alan O'Connor, Franco van der Merwe, Iain Henderson, Clive Ross, Sean Reidy;
Replacements (16-23): Rob Herring, Kyle McCall, Ross Kane, Pete Browne, Roger Wilson, Paul Marshall, Jacob Stockdale, Rob Lyttle

First round of pool games in Pool 5 and both will want to get off to the perfect start.  One of the most fascinating battles in this will be the battle of the outhalves as Irish 10's Madigan and Jackson go head to head.

Well if anyone needs cheering up the usual bunch are commenting on fb, its both sad and humorous

Steady on lads - wait until you at least play your home games before pronouncing on whether you are in or out. The second half performance was a bit of an outlier by all accounts - why so gloomy? BB are very good - I followed them for a lot of last year.

Those people are collectively the biggest set of idiots and worst set of supporters I have ever seen. They seemingly have no actual clue about rugby, I would question how many have even picked up a rugby ball

neilthom7 wrote:Those people are collectively the biggest set of idiots and worst set of supporters I have ever seen.  They seemingly have no actual clue about rugby, I would question how many have even picked up a rugby ball

George Carlin wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Those people are collectively the biggest set of idiots and worst set of supporters I have ever seen.  They seemingly have no actual clue about rugby, I would question how many have even picked up a rugby ball

Sorry I should clarify I am talking about the ones on the Ulster facebook page not anything here

neilthom7 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Those people are collectively the biggest set of idiots and worst set of supporters I have ever seen.  They seemingly have no actual clue about rugby, I would question how many have even picked up a rugby ball

Sorry I should clarify I am talking about the ones on the Ulster facebook page not anything here

They wax lyrical when we win then talk of the Armageddon when we lose, Id personally love to line each one of them up and deliver a slap

neilthom7 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Those people are collectively the biggest set of idiots and worst set of supporters I have ever seen.  They seemingly have no actual clue about rugby, I would question how many have even picked up a rugby ball

Sorry I should clarify I am talking about the ones on the Ulster facebook page not anything here

Thank God for that Neil. I didn't want to ask who you were talking about.

I mean for todays performance it was really that in the first half we started to stretch out Bordeaux and they could not handle it and that's why we went in ahead at the break. In the 2nd half the game was played to their strengths which allowed them to get the points back and eventually win. Obviously at the end a few things happened when we were chasing the game that made the scoreline not accurately reflect the game.
Really we defended well close to our own line but spent too much time there which made the mistake that Wilson made inevitable really.
It's not the end of the world, it will be tough now with the quality of the teams but Bordeaux will be capable of beating others as well so we are more than still in the comp and those guys on Facebook have went way over the edge. like seriously if you are going to cancel your season ticket because we lost 2 games against 2 good sides away then go ahead.

SecretFly wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Those people are collectively the biggest set of idiots and worst set of supporters I have ever seen.  They seemingly have no actual clue about rugby, I would question how many have even picked up a rugby ball

Sorry I should clarify I am talking about the ones on the Ulster facebook page not anything here

Thank God for that Neil.   I didn't want to ask who you were talking about.

haha come on secret you know I love everyone on here. Nah seriously though you should read their comments on Facebook like its the end of the world and talking about not renewing season tickets ebcause we lost 2 away games against 2 good teams

I can understand the upset of the facebook crowd, but they are largely a fickle and clueless lot. One enlightened poster asked " and where was Diack??? " Obviously not a very clued in fan.

P Marshall getting a lot of stick on facebook and over on the other site. The loss wasn't his fault, and he shouldn't be scapegoated. It was a collective failure, and it was a failure. I do believe this squad is capable of collecting silverware, although I feel the Euro Cup is beyond us now, but I won't soft-soap poor displays. Poor against Connacht and poor in the second half against Begles. I now look forward to winning the PRO12

Heard Bryn interviewed, called the second half display atrocious and wants answers as to why they didn't take the points at the end and claim the LBP

I thought some of the changes were made at the wrong time, AOC went off early in the second half but still looked like he had plenty left in the tank and was a real nuisance at rucks always trying to push them back off the ball

Obviously the coaches have stats we don't but did seem a bit too early

I couldn't see the game live and only just watched it (thanks to a Youtube channel called 'Rugby Time'), and so I was able to watch it a little removed from the emotion of earlier.
So, being that little bit more removed from the emotion of the tragedy - I have to say, I was absolutely livid in that second half.

Twice in the game, Trimble bolted up after restart kicks (as he does) and if he can't make a hit, he does his usual run around anticipated a tap back or blind pass. I guess somebody usually should be covering his absence at this point, but on the two occasions, the result was Copper, and then Talebul wreaking havoc with acres of room on Trimble's wing.

Players like Ross, Henderson, and Browne when he came on, all fronted up rather well and provided good aggression.

Our worst area by a long way had to be our passing, and mainly in the backs. A lot of wayward and spilled passes. Not to mention Roger's from the base of the scrum. Seriously...... It's close now to questioning how Ulster Rugby even believe Dow is good enough to be in the Academy if they don't see him as able to play better than Wilson who needs to quit while he's ahead before its starts becoming embarrassing. I can't remember the last time I saw him even attempt a front on tackle. His preferred method this season appears to be to take a handful, and hope his body weight can drag that player down.

I hope I haven't just become one of the Facebook types you've been slagging!

I'm only really so bothered because I did see glimpses of us dominating them, and thus there was proof we were capable. The reality is I was partially prepared for a loss considering we have the furthest thing from a settled side, a lot of players only recently returned, and many playing out of position, or with new partnerships.

You do have to feel though that that Bordeaux side weren't fantastic - and with more accurate passing, our talent in the backs should really have been getting more returns...

clivemcl wrote:I hope I haven't just become one of the Facebook types you've been slagging!

I'm only really so bothered because I did see glimpses of us dominating them, and thus there was proof we were capable. The reality is I was partially prepared for a loss considering we have the furthest thing from a settled side, a lot of players only recently returned, and many playing out of position, or with new partnerships.

You do have to feel though that that Bordeaux side weren't fantastic - and with more accurate passing, our talent in the backs should really have been getting more returns...

That's it clive you join the queue for a slap too

The Facebook crowd are almost bipolar and after the Connacht defeat were talking of typical underachievement as we sat on top of the table so they seem pretty clueless, that's not something we can say about you

Defensively we weren't awful but there were lapses that cost us but Exeter look vulnerable but will be looking to bounce back this weekend. The commentators were talking Clermont up as contenders but only poor execution cost Exeter more points so it be a group with some high scores

Didn't see the game, was Madigan a non-factor.
This thread is strange, goes from +15 point victories to the competition being over in the course of a page. It's only game 1, and an away game in France for that matter.

It's a bit strange indeed to be saying that we're out of the competition after an away defeat in France. There's a long way to go in the pools, anything can happen and usually does. Exeter were soundly thrashed at home so imagine what their facebook fans must be saying

That being said I wouldn't mind if Ulster could concentrate on the Pro12 this year and forget Europe but hey, that's just me.

Anyway, it was a very disappointing result but we cannot, like the ABs, win a game without the ball.

The campaigns over

Pienaars a doubt for Exeter with a knee ligament injury

marty2086 wrote:The campaigns over

Pienaars a doubt for Exeter with a knee ligament injury

Nooooooo Marty, we shall overcome.....

Munchkin wrote:I can understand the upset of the facebook crowd, but they are largely a fickle and clueless lot. One enlightened poster asked " and where was Diack??? " Obviously not a very clued in fan.

P Marshall getting a lot of stick on facebook and over on the other site. The loss wasn't his fault, and he shouldn't be scapegoated. It was a collective failure, and it was a failure. I do believe this squad is capable of collecting silverware, although I feel the Euro Cup is beyond us now, but I won't soft-soap poor displays. Poor against Connacht and poor in the second half against Begles. I now look forward to winning the PRO12

I'd agree that the loss wasn't down to P Marshall and the overall H2 display was pretty awful, but the fact remains that the LBP was there for the taking with a peno almost in front of the posts if P Marshall hadn't had his brainfart and tapped. Bordeaux are no great shakes so losing out on the LBP may come back to haunt your lads

Seriously though, How bad is Lorcan Dow???

When Wilson was playing 6 last season they were saying it was because of his experience and knowing the systems and the intricacies of the breakdown etc so it seems to be a trust issue that's in a never ending cycle

If Dow and others don't get games they don't learn but they don't get games because they have yet to learn

That was Ulster's worse had in a long time. All the chopping and changing isn't helping. To be fair to Kiss there have been a lot of injuries.

clivemcl wrote:Seriously though, How bad is Lorcan Dow???

Fairly average but at the stage average is better than Wilson. Kiss is showing far too much loyalty.


Shanahan looked decent whenever I have seen him. I suppose they're worried about his size.

brennomac wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I can understand the upset of the facebook crowd, but they are largely a fickle and clueless lot. One enlightened poster asked " and where was Diack??? " Obviously not a very clued in fan.

P Marshall getting a lot of stick on facebook and over on the other site. The loss wasn't his fault, and he shouldn't be scapegoated. It was a collective failure, and it was a failure. I do believe this squad is capable of collecting silverware, although I feel the Euro Cup is beyond us now, but I won't soft-soap poor displays. Poor against Connacht and poor in the second half against Begles. I now look forward to winning the PRO12

I'd agree that the loss wasn't down to P Marshall and the overall H2 display was pretty awful, but the fact remains that the LBP was there for the taking with a peno almost in front of the posts if P Marshall hadn't had his brainfart and tapped.  Bordeaux are no great shakes so losing out on the LBP may come back to haunt your lads

It wasn't the smartest thing to do, and it did cost us a point, but the focus of the loss shouldn't be on Marshall. That's scapegoating. Ok, we lost the bonus point but, more importantly, we lost the game.

I've often defended Paul Marshall, but taking the quick tap was inexcusable.
Ulster needed to score twice to win the game anyway so taking the cast iron three points quickly not only would have secured the LBP but also maximised the time left to concentrate on the try. Then even a try and no conversion would have earned a draw and denied BB two points.
In the past Marshall has shown the presence of mind to drop a conversion to ensure a quick restart, so if he had even attempted to drop the penalty goal I would have had no quibbles, because there would have been some logic in that whether it went over or not.

Paul Marshall's lack of composure cost Ulster a losing bonus point but not the game. Kiss brought his subs on early in the hope that fresh legs would counter Bordeaux's superior strength, and that was where the game was won and lost. It remains patently obvious that Ulster simply don't have the depth to consistently trouble the expensive French squads. So yes it was only the first game but of the three away games, it was the easiest, and makes the possibility of a home quarter final remote. Ulster's limited squad is already tested with injuries and will be more so come the sharp end of the season, therefore they have to ask can they afford to fight on two fronts? It hasn't worked in recent years so perhaps they should be blooding guys like Dow against Exeter anyway, as Roger isn't up to that standard anyway

Reported on BBCNI that Ulster had some good news concerning Pienaars injury, but will have to wait for a couple of days to know if he will play at the weekend, or not.

The Great Aukster wrote:I've often defended Paul Marshall, but taking the quick tap was inexcusable.

The quick tap wasn't in itself a bad idea, it was the fact he panicked afterwards and made a mess of it. He wasn't brave enough to just run straight as Bordeaux hadnt got back 10, a step to the left and he was probably in too

What upsets me isn't so much that Ulster were so poor in that second half. Bordeaux were absolutely atrocious too. What does that make us? Look at the try Andrew Trimble scored for an example of absolutely shockingly lazy defence from Bordeaux. That was a nice line but there were a bunch of Bordeaux forwards strolling back, not trying to reload or get back in the line.There was no intensity in the game and it was utterly turgid. Can't believe we didn't kick on from there and hurt them by moving the ball. We showed some grit to hang in under pressure but mentally we looked absent entirely after half time. Who knows how we will prepare for Exeter.

The backs are playing some ok rugby but they are being given such a poor platform its unbelievable. The backs look ok, the forward pack has been in absentia these past two weeks. It's such a lightweight pack and even players like Best and Henderson are absent and underwhelming.

The way Paul Marshall is playing makes the IRFUs diktat on Pienaar even more baffling. Are we expected to believe if Marshall is first choice next year Joe Schmidt will somehow start selecting him in squads- or Shanahan will get picked for Ireland?

What is going on...

Just watched the game. Possibly the worst 10 minutes I have ever witnessed from an Ulster side.

How we can be expected to win anything in Europe with a bunch of idle forwards is beyond me. I would say that I thought Henderson was the one bright spark of the pack and although he isn't at his best yet, he was the only one who could physically best the Bordeaux pack.

The quick tap. To see the reaction of Les Kiss at that moment...

appart from Henderson Ulster seem to lack ball carriers (guess McCloskey, Tuohy and one of the South African forwards who is injured could do that job though?) to make some easy yards , relief pressure when you want to get out of your 22 by creating space for your backs to kick , start a move etc... those same players can also be used to make "offensive" tackles that also help you to make ground and while I though the starting backrow did ok it sort of lost effectiveness throughout the game. with that in mind it's easy to guess what UBB plan was : 1) plan A : try to outrun Ulster with some fast tempo rugby. Not a good idea against a quick rush défense helped by some mobile pack. That was the 1H and some big failure which could have ended with a much worst score line 2) plan B: keep some fatties on the bench as well as a non creative FH with a big boot and unleash them by the hour mark. Revert to the good old grind fest with pick and gos and keep on hitting the midfield till it breaks. also no more passing the ball to poor AAC who surely must have fell asleep in that 2H. Plan B eventually worked for some reason since Ulster let it happen but you have to wonder how it will work for them when they face big physical teams that understand the meaning of clinical and ruthless (think Leinster for instance).

Spot on Whocares!

Ulster are lightweight against the big budget sides. They have a plethora of hybrid forwards who can 'play' both lock and backrow - as well as Henderson there is Browne, Diack, Treadwell and Tuohy. They are all fairly quick but not quick enough against true backrows, and they are fairly big but relatively lightweight against out and out locks. In other words they are falling between two stools because the backrow isn't at the breakdown quick enough to secure/turnover ball, and they can't play a retention game because they make no ground against superior bulk.

Well if our strongest back row without Coetzee is a lock and two opensides then we are really screwed aren't we. Diack is too soft to play 6 and Wilson is out of it. Time to get younger players involved in the back row and at 9 and just take the hard hits of succession.

Kind of ironic that Nick Williams wanted to renew last season and Ruan Pienaar wants to stay and we're running around saying 'God if we can't find a ball-carrying back rower and a scrum half we're screwed for next season.'

I wouldn't mind if we were just up against other Pro12 teams but when you're in European competition against teams that don't have these restraints its really hard to swallow.

I know we traded Williams for Coetzee but with no restrictions we could have kept both. I feel it is largely our fault for investing in a world class 15 instead of another high class back rower as well as Coetzee- but maybe we were told only one foreign back rower at a time. I don't know.

It's just going to be bloody weird next season watching Williams smashing through players in Cardiff and Ruan marshalling the ship somewhere else while we watch Roger Wilson and Paul Marshall back here.

Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Think the poster was reading between the lines, Pete, but Logan did confirm that Pienaar won't be with us next season. He also added that his hope is that Pienaar joins us in some role a couple of seasons from now.

Pete330v2 wrote:Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Seen the Communities Minister Paul Givan had written to the IRFU about Pienaar, I bet that raised a few chuckles in Dublin but seen a quote from Logan saying Ulster have moved on from it. Seems pretty final

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Seen the Communities Minister Paul Givan had written to the IRFU about Pienaar, I bet that raised a few chuckles in Dublin but seen a quote from Logan saying Ulster have moved on from it. Seems pretty final

If that letter was proposing to help towards financing the deal then it might not go straight into the shred pile.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Seen the Communities Minister Paul Givan had written to the IRFU about Pienaar, I bet that raised a few chuckles in Dublin but seen a quote from Logan saying Ulster have moved on from it. Seems pretty final

If that letter was proposing to help towards financing the deal then it might not go straight into the shred pile.

Sure Ulster are able to finance the deal themselves- its just that the IRFU need to sign off on it.

Just thinking about it again is getting me angry. I mean its so, so, so self-defeating and stupid

Notch wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Seen the Communities Minister Paul Givan had written to the IRFU about Pienaar, I bet that raised a few chuckles in Dublin but seen a quote from Logan saying Ulster have moved on from it. Seems pretty final

If that letter was proposing to help towards financing the deal then it might not go straight into the shred pile.

Sure Ulster are able to finance the deal themselves- its just that the IRFU need to sign off on it.

Just thinking about it again is getting me angry. I mean its so, so, so self-defeating and stupid

I think that's why my brain simply refuses to process the facts and move on from it. I still feel that Pienaar will be with us next season because all reason and logic would suggest he should, it's only stupidity and self-defeatism that suggests he should leave.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Seen the Communities Minister Paul Givan had written to the IRFU about Pienaar, I bet that raised a few chuckles in Dublin but seen a quote from Logan saying Ulster have moved on from it. Seems pretty final

If that letter was proposing to help towards financing the deal then it might not go straight into the shred pile.

No he was asking why? Even though it had already been explained, it seems information needs to be repeated to him for it to register

Pete330v2 wrote:

Notch wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Seen the Communities Minister Paul Givan had written to the IRFU about Pienaar, I bet that raised a few chuckles in Dublin but seen a quote from Logan saying Ulster have moved on from it. Seems pretty final

If that letter was proposing to help towards financing the deal then it might not go straight into the shred pile.

Sure Ulster are able to finance the deal themselves- its just that the IRFU need to sign off on it.

Just thinking about it again is getting me angry. I mean its so, so, so self-defeating and stupid

I think that's why my brain simply refuses to process the facts and move on from it. I still feel that Pienaar will be with us next season because all reason and logic would suggest he should, it's only stupidity and self-defeatism that suggests he should leave.

Unless Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion or James Hart have already signed with Ulster there is literally no benefit to Irish Rugby whatsoever. I cannot move on because there is no logic to this decision.

It particularly frustrating that we are blocked from resigning a world class scrum-half when we have nothing but dross at 9, and then they go ahead and give us the green light to sign a world class 15 when we have 4 current Ireland internationals in the back three. Meanwhile Leinster who have one of the most promising young scrum-halves in the country sign a project at 9.

I mean... I just...

Notch wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Notch wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Quote from t'other forum, not by one of the reliables mind you but

'Logan confirmed this morning Pienaar has signed a deal with an unnamed club for next season.'

Seen the Communities Minister Paul Givan had written to the IRFU about Pienaar, I bet that raised a few chuckles in Dublin but seen a quote from Logan saying Ulster have moved on from it. Seems pretty final

If that letter was proposing to help towards financing the deal then it might not go straight into the shred pile.

Sure Ulster are able to finance the deal themselves- its just that the IRFU need to sign off on it.

Just thinking about it again is getting me angry. I mean its so, so, so self-defeating and stupid

I think that's why my brain simply refuses to process the facts and move on from it. I still feel that Pienaar will be with us next season because all reason and logic would suggest he should, it's only stupidity and self-defeatism that suggests he should leave.

Unless Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion or James Hart have already signed with Ulster there is literally no benefit to Irish Rugby whatsoever. I cannot move on because there is no logic to this decision.

It particularly frustrating that we are blocked from resigning a world class scrum-half when we have nothing but dross at 9, and then they go ahead and give us the green light to sign a world class 15 when we have 4 current Ireland internationals in the back three. Meanwhile Leinster who have one of the most promising young scrum-halves in the country sign a project at 9.

I mean... I just...

Speaking of Leinster perhaps we should learn from them and sign Ruan up as a winger, centre or fullback. I mean it worked for them in retaining Isa and Zane

The rules are so utterly stupid and without reason when enforced without reference to common sense.

When the 'rules' first came out there were plenty of objections - see Thornley's piece in 2011
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/irfu-powers-take-a-sledgehammer-to-a-nail-1.15846

The illogical and unreasonable nature of the rules was always inherent, which is why it is ironic that Nucifora gets the brunt of the criticism doing what he is paid to do, whereas the instigators of the brave new world like Pat Whelan, Philip Browne and Tom Grace get away without so much as a finger pointed at them.

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the rules, Pienaar is a world class Scrum Half and is leaving. Is the problem that Ulster have no replacement Scrum Half or is it that Ulster have no replacement world class 9? I suspect that Paul Marshall would be rated significantly higher if he was at say Saracens rather than Ulster. If he was behind a pack that won better ball then the demands on his skills would be less. Dave Shanahan might start to look better too.

The question has to be asked of the Ulster management - if you were unable to find an understudy for Pienaar in six years, why didn't you plan a team that relied on him less heavily?

'Is the problem that Ulster have no replacement Scrum Half or is it that Ulster have no replacement world class 9?'

That may seem enough of a problem to some but for me personally the problem goes a lot deeper. Ruan had set up home in Belfast and nailed his colours firmly to the Ulster mast beyond his playing days. His loyalty to the club is only surpassed by his value to it and Irish rugby as a whole. He brings more than just the attributes of a world class scrummy, he brings leadership on the pitch and mentorship off it. Someone the emerging players can connect to and look up to and much, much more. His retention would have been beneficial to so many whilst getting rid of him will benefit nobody in Irish rugby. Add all that to just how influential he is to how Ulster perform and there's a lot of people scratching heads.
It's one thing saying the rules were put in place with good intentions but to follow the rules without the input of human intellect or logic beggars belief.

Loyalty is quite a rare commodity and it's shame it is not valued properly. I believe it was the same for Pedrie Wannenburg who was let go right? (Although not the same calibre he was quite handy)