5000-1 - The 2016/17 Premier League thread

[Crimey]

First topic message reminder :

Also, considering mine and pretty much everybody's doubts Mane has been a fantastic signing.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

massively dissapointed by the 2-2 draw with West Brom, WBA are a poor side, and we should have won that game

Disappointed with a 2-2 draw against a side two places above you? Should be happy with that.

Pulis got out done tactically second half, lucky to scrape a point but we're far from an awful side as our season and position would show

You know my feelings on this, but Pulis and his style of management let us do that. 

I can see why hes disappointed, although I expected us to lose to that kind of set up. As I have said, Id rather finish below you than play like you to match the position. Bilic isn't perfect, but he goes for it, and football is an entertainment package

[Born Slippy]

They really need to sort out the handball rule. Pretty obvious the Sanchez one was not deliberate so it was right that it stood. However, every analysis show is saying it should have been disallowed (and the ref seems to have told Hull he made a mistake). If such a goal shouldn't stand, then the wording of the rule needs to change.

[Hammersmith harrier]

They really need to sort out the handball rule. Pretty obvious the Sanchez one was not deliberate so it was right that it stood. However, every analysis show is saying it should have been disallowed (and the ref seems to have told Hull he made a mistake). If such a goal shouldn't stand, then the wording of the rule needs to change.

I think the rules contradict each other, fairly certain they say you cannot score with the arm but it must be deliberate to be a free kick, my understanding is that it shouldn't have stood.

[Born Slippy]

So far as I can see, there is nothing in the rules saying you can't score if it hits your arm. The goal correctly stood unless you consider it was deliberate.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Howard Webb explained it rather brilliantly on 606. To shorten and dilute it: 

Said it was a valid goal as there was nothing deliberate and it had spat up at him from close range so the position of his arm cannot be too questioned. 

He had been attempting to kick the ball with his left foot, and as such his right arm goes out as a natural balance. The ball then flies up from short range and hits the arm, the arm has not moved from a natural position of balance to go towards the ball, it has remained in that position and been struck from very close range.

The difference to a defender jumping and making himself wider is that that is not always considered a natural position for the arms, and as such it is deliberate. Also that case of moving your arm out, which there was an example of in the game later on.

[Guest]

Ranieri's toast, sadly. Change is obviously needed.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Swansea 2-0 up at home to Leicester at half time.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Just isnt a plan to Leicester. All they seem able to do is put on more attacking players.

[Born Slippy]

Howard Webb explained it rather brilliantly on 606. To shorten and dilute it: 

Said it was a valid goal as there was nothing deliberate and it had spat up at him from close range so the position of his arm cannot be too questioned. 

He had been attempting to kick the ball with his left foot, and as such his right arm goes out as a natural balance. The ball then flies up from short range and hits the arm, the arm has not moved from a natural position of balance to go towards the ball, it has remained in that position and been struck from very close range.

The difference to a defender jumping and making himself wider is that that is not always considered a natural position for the arms, and as such it is deliberate. Also that case of moving your arm out, which there was an example of in the game later on.

Yes, which is exactly how the rule should be applied. It's also not that hard to understand so why do most pundits get it totally wrong? The Sanchez one is not difficult in my view - it wasn't deliberate and therefore was a goal.

As you say, the trickier ones are defenders blocking shots or crosses. Even then though, it shouldn't be that tricky. First question is whether the defender had time to move their arm. If not, second question is was the arm in an unnatural position (for example, defender jumps in a starfish shape). Anything else, it's not deliberate. I actually think the rule is drafted well but interpretation seems to be a real struggle.

[Fernando]

Daily Mail suggesting Ranieri has been sacked by Leicester.

Legit hope they go down if that's true.

[GSC]

Football is a cruel, cruel game sometimes but Ranieri didn't help himself last summer

[GSC]

Sacked on his return to England today. Suggests he was a goner regardless.

Sports in general can be incredibly harsh but does last seasons miracle allow Ranieri to take Leicester down this year. Hed quite obviously ran out of cards to reverse this form.

[Fernando]

http://www.lcfc.com/news/article/2016-17/club-statement-leicester-city-and-claudio-ranieri-part-company-3591441.aspx

Nigel Pearson favorite
Alan Pardew 2nd fav
Mark Warburton 3rd

[GSC]

The bookies are currently in throw **** at the wall phase. Seen Rowett favourite in some places.

Basically nobody has a clue. Foreign would be bet

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Mancini suddenly come in to favourite everywhere

[Crimey]

Shame for Ranieri, but he has shown that he doesn't have clue this season. He's got so much wrong and struggled to drop players he should have dropped, changed tactics to ones clearly not suited to the side. 

The players have to take a long hard look at themselves though, they have shown a clear lack of effort this season and supposedly it was the players who came and forced Ranieri out. They know they're fine, players like Mahrez and Vardy will be picked up by bigger sides if they're relegated anyway. If they had put in more effort Leicester would not be in the position they are in right now, bad tactics or not.

[GSC]

I put that failure on Ranieri as much as anyone.

Obvious there was going to be serious regression, a team of career lower league players/lower PL standard players don't all suddenly become title winning standard. Wasn't a stretch to say quite a few would regress back to normality.

Leicester needed to be unsentimental last summer. Sell high on players that vastly overachieved last season and replace them with players with a track record at a higher level.

Winning the title was never going to be repeated, but banking on a group of players who spent most of the previous season bottom was stupid. And the players they did sign, were to a man, crap.

[dyrewolfe]

Shame for Ranieri, but he has shown that he doesn't have clue this season. He's got so much wrong and struggled to drop players he should have dropped, changed tactics to ones clearly not suited to the side. 

The players have to take a long hard look at themselves though, they have shown a clear lack of effort this season and supposedly it was the players who came and forced Ranieri out. They know they're fine, players like Mahrez and Vardy will be picked up by bigger sides if they're relegated anyway. If they had put in more effort Leicester would not be in the position they are in right now, bad tactics or not.

Totally agree. In fact I would go so far as to say its the players that are to blame most of the time...but sadly sacking an entire first team just isn't feasible, so its the manager who gets sacrificed.

Leicester players got lazy and complacent and expected a comfortable top 10 finish, without putting in the kind of effort they did last season.

Sorry, but no manager goes from being a title-winner to clueless in that amount of time. Ranieri evidently lost the dressing room somehow...but I still blame the players for not giving him the respect and loyalty he deserved, even if they didn't always agree with his decisions.

If Leicester do get relegated, it'll be no more than they deserve. The real shame is most of the big players will probably land fat contracts elsewhere...

No decency in football today.

[dyrewolfe]

I put that failure on Ranieri as much as anyone.

Obvious there was going to be serious regression, a team of career lower league players/lower PL standard  players don't all suddenly become title winning standard. Wasn't a stretch to say quite a few would regress back to normality.

Leicester needed to be unsentimental last summer. Sell high on players that vastly overachieved last season and replace them with players with a track record at a higher level.

Winning the title was never going to be repeated, but banking on a group of players who spent most of the previous season bottom was stupid. And the players they did sign, were to a man, crap.

Sorry but thats garbage. It was basically the same squad that won the title the previous season. While they obviously did massively over-achieve, there is also no way they should have been getting beaten by the likes of Hull, Swansea, West Brom and Millwall. I put the blame firmly at the feet of the players for simply not putting enough effort in.

If they were good enough the win the league, they were good enough to achieve a comfortable mid-table finish at the very least.

[GSC]

That's the kind of thinking that lands you in Leicesters position. There's no way you can bank on that squad repeating anything close to the performances of last season. They aren't career winners, they're largely career journeymen. History suggests most would return to the form they usually maintain.

The players are far from blameless but by all accounts Ranieris tactics have been bewildering, he's been known to change the entire setup 2 hours before games, his man management has obviously been problematic.

Beyond harsh in the context of last season. Beyond time in the context of this season. As I said, does last year's title allow Ranieri to take Leicester down?

[Hammersmith harrier]

The blame rests solely on the shoulders of the players as it always does, they've not put the effort in and to be honest I don't see many of them landing big contracts at bigger clubs as in reality they aren't that good.

We're not talking about players of Hazards ability not putting the effort in.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Doesnt his position in the Champions League allow him the chance to take them into the last 16? (of which apparently 50% of teams do after that position in the first leg).

I agree with parts of GSC's point, but to think they should have been selling any of those is a bit daft; to sell would have been far more of a risk. They don't need the cash, they have long been rich, so they needed to complement the squad. Some of their signings haven't been bad, but the manager has been guilty of loyalty in consistently picking some of the other players, not loyalty in not selling them.

The problem is that they all know they're fine if they go down. Be interesting to see who wastes their money on Drinkwater and Vardy - I would bet we chase everyone's favourite WKD advert.

People will point to Kante and others will be right to say you can understand a loss of points because they lost their best player, but that point differential was not 30-odd and it is not an excuse for such a drift.

[Scott is Back]

Be interesting to see who picks up the deadwood at LCFC.

Players like Vardy are being found out, yes he had a great season last year, but has reverted to form this year (You dont get to 28/29 without being noticed if your any good!) poor player, that had a freak season.

Mahrez is likely the only one who will get picked up, and will have a decent career. Schmeichel has left it late, Vardy is sh!te and should have taken his chance last year. Demary Grey and Ndidi are too good for the championship.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Mancini has apparently said he's not interested

[GSC]

Is it cynical of me that to think that when José defends Ranieri, he's really trying to defend his last Chelsea season?

[Crimey]

Is it cynical of me that to think that when José defends Ranieri, he's really trying to defend his last Chelsea season?

It's painfully obvious. Although he probably does sympathise with Ranieri as both managers clearly lost the faith of title winning sides.

[Hibbz]

What get's me about the sacking is that in effect he's been sacked for winning the league last season.

If Leicester had finshed lower mid table last season he wouldn't have been sacked. If they'd finished lower mid table last season and were in their current position there wouldn't be the same fuss and he wouldn't have been sacked. Let's face it there are still three teams who've done worse so far and you'd take evens on them to stay up. (current price 4/11).

He's been sacked because they performed the miracle last season and raised expectations. It's bull$hit and he's been treated dreadfully.

[Guest]

That's the kind of thinking that lands you in Leicesters position. There's no way you can bank on that squad repeating anything close to the performances of last season. They aren't career winners, they're largely career journeymen. History suggests most would return to the form they usually maintain.

The players are far from blameless but by all accounts Ranieris tactics have been bewildering, he's been known to change the entire setup 2 hours before games, his man management has obviously been problematic.

Beyond harsh in the context of last season. Beyond time in the context of this season. As I said, does last year's title allow Ranieri to take Leicester down?

More or less everything GSC said about Leicester I agree with.  I also agree with the analysis of Mourinho - in putting most of the blame performance wise onto the players.  Rather than preparing physically and mentally for the new 2016/2017 season, they were all focused on getting the best contracts to take advantage of the results and their efforts of the previous season.  They were busy negotiating new lucrative 3 to 5 year deals at Leicester or elsewhere - both Vardy and Mahrez were in talks with other clubs, as well as with Leicester.  When they got their contracts most of them weren't physically and mentally ready for the new season.  They sat back, were a yard slower physically and mentally.  The hunger and the magic was no longer there.  And Ranieri wasn't able to stop this from happening or to get them going again.   On top of that - last season was the exceptional season, this season was a more normal season, so there was also a return to their normal levels of play - plus the team are a year older.

Based on this season and especially since the start of  the new year - Leicester have been the worst performing team in the entire four divisions with no league goals scored.  Leicester were plummeting towards relegation and there was no sign of anything changing.  The new Hull and Swansea managers are performing miracles and I really rate the new Hull boss Marco Silva.  He seems to be part of the new breed of special managers.  Hull is a complete mess but he seems to be giving them a chance.  My bet for relegation before Ranieri's departure were, Sunderland, Crystal Palace, Leicester.  I still think it will be these three teams to go down.

I think that the quality of managers currently in the Premiership is extraordinary high - even at the bottom of the table - where the resources and infrastructure act to limit what they can realistic achieve.  If you look at the Championship there are also many many high quality managers - including Garry Monk and that guy at Huddersfield as well as Jaap Stam and ...

[Guest]

Separate to this, with the sacking of Claudio Ranieri the legend of Leicester 2015/2016 will continue to grow.  What will be perfect for the legend is if Leicester are relegated, Vardy ends up finishing his career back playing in the conference, and Mahrez ends up back playing for a second or third division team in France.

[Guest]

One more comment before I am done for now.  What an extraordinary turn around in performance at West Ham once the manager was pushed into banning their star player from last year Dimitri Payet from being around the squad - followed by him being hastily sold in the winter transfer period. It just shows the effect of having a poor dressing room on overall performance levels.

[NickisBHAFC]

Football is dead. Simply.

[NickisBHAFC]

Odds on Conte being sacked next season? Seems to be the trend.

[GSC]

Let's not be overly dramatic. Ranieri was taking Leicester into the Championship. This is elite level sport, there's too much riding on it for sentimentality.

[GSC]

What get's me about the sacking is that in effect he's been sacked for winning the league last season.

If Leicester had finshed lower mid table last season he wouldn't have been sacked. If they'd finished lower mid table last season and were in their current position there wouldn't be the same fuss and he wouldn't have been sacked. Let's face it there are still three teams who've done worse so far and you'd take evens on them to stay up. (current price 4/11).

He's been sacked because they performed the miracle last season and raised expectations. It's bull$hit and he's been treated dreadfully.

He's been sacked because Leicester are sleepwalking into the Championship under his leadership. If they were mid table he'd be fine.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

One more comment before I am done for now.  What an extraordinary turn around in performance at West Ham once the manager was pushed into banning their star player from last year Dimitri Payet from being around the squad - followed by him being hastily sold in the winter transfer period.  It just shows the effect of having a poor dressing room on overall performance levels.

Some will look at it and say we may have done it at a time where we also had easier games.

But I will say that all of those things were Bilic's decision and its another reason I love him. He's been very strong on it when the chairmen held different views

[compelling and rich]

Let's not be overly dramatic. Ranieri was taking Leicester into the Championship. This is elite level sport, there's too much riding on it for sentimentality.

prove it, he was above relegation zone with fair few winnable games coming up. nonsense comment predicting a future we do not know

[compelling and rich]

sorry but its clear to see that under the pampered primadonna era of premiership footballers, that a bunch of players who are average at best win the title by working hard as a team like a greece did in euro 2004 have had their head turned away from football by big contracts and other endorsements away from football. just watch Leicester this season the effort simply isnt there, the manager isnt telling them to do that on the pitch. it was a freek season but if they put the same effort in they did last season minus missing kante they would be comfortably mid table

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Prove that it's their fault and not his...

[Hammersmith harrier]

Last season is all the proof you need.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Nonsense. I don't disagree with the argument that the players are to blame, but to attack GSC's opinion that they're going down cos he can't prove it is as dumb as saying it's not Ranieri's fault because he can't prove that.

Why does the manager get the credit for positives but players the blame for negatives? Their form for months before Ranieri was incredible after all.

I dislike the sacking immensely, but Claudio has done an awful job this season, of that there is no doubt

[Dolphin Ziggler]

And pre Madonna means before Madonna. Prima donna (although now commonly used as one word)

[Hammersmith harrier]

I'd say Payet at your place is a perfect example Dolph, who was to blame for his behaviour?

It certainly wasn't Bilic who took a punt on a player who had promised much but never fulfilled his potential and i'm sure you'll agree that he's disrupted your whole season too?

[Guest]

Let's not be overly dramatic. Ranieri was taking Leicester into the Championship. This is elite level sport, there's too much riding on it for sentimentality.

prove it, he was above relegation zone with fair few winnable games coming up. nonsense comment predicting a future we do not know

Take away this one decision (to sack Claudio Ranieri) have all the other decisions made by the owners of Leicester City FC been good decisions?

They bought the club in August 2010. They steadied the club as a top half team in the Championship, hiring and firing Sven Goren Erikson in the process. The club won promotion to the Premiership in the 2013/14 season. Managed to miraculously survive the 2014/15 season in the Premiership. Then sacked Nigel Pearson, brought in Claudio Ranieri, had the even more miraculous 2015/16 season in the Premiership, winning it.

Then this season, since the start of 2017 Leicester City have scored no premier league goals and lost five consecutive games and are one point off relegation. At the same time all the lowest teams apart from Sunderland and Middlesbrough have sacked their managers, with Swansea and Hull getting huge bounces with much better organisation and effort on the pitch. The owners have looked at what has been happening, have received advice, have spoken to the players and then made another decision. They have the most to lose.

The consensus of opinion seems to be is that the miracle of 2015/16 rapidly deteriorated in the pre-season of 2016/17 with some players and staff moving, other players getting bumper rewards etc. It seems the mistakes were made here by everyone - in not realising that Leicester City were still more or less a lower half of the Premier League club (at least with Kante gone) and should have based decisions on that. The pre-season was tumultuous with players and staff renegotiating contracts, key players and staff leaving (Kante, Steve Walsh). Maybe Ranieri is not the right man when it comes to relegation battles and team overhauls. Maybe the club and manager have been too loyal to last years players. It is difficult to know what the correct approach was given the unprecedented 2015/16 season.

In hindsight I agree with GSC in that there should have been a rebuild, with a manager and an infrastructure capable of the rebuild - but would that have been understood and accepted by the fans and the media? Unlikely. Sacking Ranieri at this stage is probably too late to change Leicester's fortunes. They should have sacked him earlier - but this would have been even less acceptable. So probably, maybe, they should have stuck with Ranieri and then prepared for the championship assuming no change in form - there was always a chance that after the Champions League escapade their league form would change. But can they survive being relegated - with all the players on five year bumper contracts? Will relegation actually financially ruin Leicester?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'd say Payet at your place is a perfect example Dolph, who was to blame for his behaviour?

It certainly wasn't Bilic who took a punt on a player who had promised much but never fulfilled his potential and i'm sure you'll agree that he's disrupted your whole season too?

It's a very different situation. One player, who came back in summer and wanted to leave. He didn't want to succeed, where I think the Leicester players definitely wanted to continue in summer. Are their players skipping training?

Leicester have looked tactically inept and a confused outfit, and whilst the blame is going to be on the players, the buck does stop with the manager. Why are they lacking effort? Why do they look clueless? Why haven't the dissenters been dropped?

The contrast to take from Bilic and Ranieri is that we stopped our slide by making drastic changes and then outing a bad-egg publicly. Ranieri didn't have to go that far, but he certainly didn't seem to be making any changes in a substantial sense. They were one day, even half a game changes and he didn't know how to fix the problem.

I'd have wanted him to carry on regardless, but the reasoning behind the sacking is understandable

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

sorry but its clear to see that under the pampered pre Madonna era of premiership footballers, that a bunch of players who are average at best win the title by working hard as a team like a greece did in euro 2004 have had their head turned away from football by big contracts and other endorsements away from football. just watch Leicester this season the effort simply isnt there, the manager isnt telling them to do that on the pitch. it was a freek season but if they put the same effort in they did last season minus missing kante they would be comfortably mid table

Ranieri was managing like a virgin, hung up on trying to go 4 minutes this season

[Guest]

... since the start of 2017 Leicester City have scored no premier league goals and lost five consecutive games and are one point off relegation.  At the same time all the lowest teams apart from Sunderland and Middlesbrough have sacked their managers, with Swansea and Hull getting huge bounces with much better organisation and effort on the pitch.  The owners have looked at what has been happening, have received advice, have spoken to the players and then made another decision.  They have the most to lose.

Unconfirmed reports are suggesting that the meeting between the owners and players following the defeat at Seville was instrumental in the decision to sack Ranieri.  It seems the senior players were unable to give their support for Ranieri and the coaching staff.  Trust and confidence had apparently broken down.  If that is the case, then maybe the owners had little choice in sacking Ranieri. Some are asking where are the behind the scenes quotes of players giving / tweeting their support for the departed manager.

[GSC]

I'm not disagreeing that the players have a lot to answer for.

But that and the statement that Ranieri has done an awful job this season can both be true.

[Nico the gman]

It looks like senior players moaning to the owners and spitting their dummies out has got Ranieri sacked. These over paid,pampered pu$$ies should be ashamed of themselves.
Ranier's mistake was making silk purses from sows ears in his 1st season and he made a rod for his own back.
In hindsight what a pity Pearson saved them from relegation.

If Leicester players don't perform next game they ain't gonna like the backlash they're going to get from the fans, no hiding place for them.

[GSC]

Equally the argument could made that Ranieri won the PL with just a few minor tweaks to Nigel Pearsons team that went on a great run to end the previous season and when he put his own stamp on the team last summer they collapsed. As Dolph says, why does Ranieri get all the credit for great form and a free pass for awful form.

I mean it's really not the first time players have been left confused by Ranieris bizarre tinkering with tactics and odd team selections.

[Nico the gman]

Equally the argument could made that Ranieri won the PL with just a few minor tweaks to Nigel Pearsons team that went on a great run to end the previous season and when he put his own stamp on the team last summer they collapsed. As Dolph says, why does Ranieri get all the credit for great form and a free pass for awful form.

I mean it's really not the first time players have been left confused by Ranieris bizarre tinkering with tactics and odd team selections.

What Ranieri did was the equivalent of what Clough did at Forest, and to win the PL isn't a great run its a miraculous run. Ranieri doesn't get a pass on poor form, but he should have at least had the chance to turn it around, its a shocking sacking from ungrateful  owners, who don't deserve success, my personal opinion I hope they go down and I suspect a lot of other people in football will feel the same.

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