5000-1 - The 2016/17 Premier League thread

by **Crimey** Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Also, considering mine and pretty much everybody's doubts Mane has been a fantastic signing.

by GSC Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:33 pm

by compelling and rich Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:37 pm

is mourinho a poor manager then? chelsea players spat their dummies out and stopped playing. now conte is getting all the plaudits getting them playing again, yet its clear to see the players were already there. player power has gone too far now, happened with scolari aswell doesnt mean these guys are bad managers. players ego's are running away, i doubt fergie would work if he started managing today.

when ive watched leicester, i havent seen bizarre tactics. ive seen him trying to do what they did last season with the players not doing it on the pitch. its not raneris fault vardys is missing his chances

i understand a managers biggest job is to manage players, but as a united fan growing up watching a very successful side lead by a man with ultimate power over the dressing room, nobody is going to convince me the players were right here

by GSC Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:45 pm

If you ignore that Mourinhos actually won a top league before last season sure.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:57 pm

You mention Ferguson and then ignore that having that control was his biggest success of management. The reason he is going to be remembered in football forever is that he kept turning in winning teams. He did this by knowing how to keep them motivated, driven and understanding the personalities in his charge.

Ranieri obviously hasn't been able to do that.

It was a pragmatic decision. I'm a footballing romantic, as many of us our, but you'd argue that owners maybe need not to be.

by compelling and rich Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:59 pm

so one off managers are all poor and dont deserve credit?

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:01 pm

For those who do want the players to be held accountable, you shouldn't want them to go down. If they go down they will walk away easily; stay up and Leicester have less need financially and by their standing. There will be no pressure and these players can't just walk away leaving it to someone else.

I hope they go down because they're an annoying club and their fans have been irritating for years. None more so than the ones who have wanted Ranieri gone

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:03 pm

compelling and rich wrote:so one off managers are all poor and dont deserve credit?

Not sure I said that. But only extends so far. Whatever happens it was an incredible achievement, but they are an awful football side that looks well like it could be relegated, which would be one of the poorest managerial performances in recent history. Swings and roundabouts

by Nico the gman Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:03 pm

compelling and rich wrote:is mourinho a poor manager then? chelsea players spat their dummies out and stopped playing. now conte is getting all the plaudits getting them playing again, yet its clear to see the players were already there. player power has gone too far now, happened with scolari aswell doesnt mean these guys are bad managers. players ego's are running away, i doubt fergie would work if he started managing today.

when ive watched leicester, i havent seen bizarre tactics. ive seen him trying to do what they did last season with the players not doing it on the pitch. its not raneris fault vardys is missing his chances

i understand a managers biggest job is to manage players, but as a united fan growing up watching a very successful side lead by a man with ultimate power over the dressing room, nobody is going to convince me the players were right here

Absolutely spot on, some on here don't realise what an achievement it is to win the league with a team like Leicester, Clough was the last manager to achieve anything like this. It can be dressed any way you like its a distasteful sacking with total disrespect for a manager who has achieved something that they doubtless will never see again. Player power has ruled again.

by compelling and rich Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:08 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You mention Ferguson and then ignore that having that control was his biggest success of management. The reason he is going to be remembered in football forever is that he kept turning in winning teams. He did this by knowing how to keep them motivated, driven and understanding the personalities in his charge.

Ranieri obviously hasn't been able to do that.

It was a pragmatic decision. I'm a footballing romantic, as many of us our, but you'd argue that owners maybe need not to be.

luckily for us fergie started managing when players were less ego driven and lot less volatile. when the money came fergie already had boat load of success he had he could rule the dressing room with a iron fist because no player was bigger than fergie. this was great for us, that and we actually had players playing for us who loved the club. fergie is a great example of managers who rule solely and given all power can be very successful and not give into player power (like the Leicester owners did)

just dont buy into that a team like chelsea, leciester etc turn into crap over a season because the manager suddenly forgets what he was doing. mourinho is a good manager, ranieri obviously not as good as jose but in both situations its players who caused the poor run in form and deserve most of the criticism. (not all though, of course the manager gets some as well but when such a huge swing it can only be the players who can cause such a shift)

by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:08 pm

Part of the managers job is man management and getting the players to play for him. It is not just about being a scholar and a master tactician of the game. Once the manager has lost the dressing room then it sometimes becomes a choice of keeping the players and sacking the manager or keeping the manager and "sacking" some of the players - but there needs to be enough players left for the manager to form a viable team. I think at West Ham Bilic saved his job by banning Payet from the squad. Maybe at Leicester there were just too many key players that had lost confidence in Ranieri for that to have been a viable solution. It is looking more and more like the owners would not have sacked Ranieri if he had been given the support of his key players.

by compelling and rich Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:09 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:so one off managers are all poor and dont deserve credit?

Not sure I said that. But only extends so far. Whatever happens it was an incredible achievement, but they are an awful football side that looks well like it could be relegated, which would be one of the poorest managerial performances in recent history. Swings and roundabouts

aimed at gsc comment that dolph about mourinhhos fine about chelsea drop because hes won leagues elsewhere

by Hammersmith harrier Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:18 pm

You're spot on C & R, the real test for Conte will be next season when Hazard, Costa and the rest don't feel like trying.

A manager can only do so much and Fergie was a one off who kept the core together for a long time. We had players who would break down walls for him and you can be sure that Scholes, Giggs and Ferdinand wouldn't go against him like a John Terry.

The Leicester players had a level of success that they never expected and we're unlikely to see again.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:55 pm

And all your comment proves is that it is part of a manager's job to stop that happening. Should the manager be somewhat blamed for neither harnessing the personalities better nor picking ones that have the right drive to get continued success?

I don't agree with the sacking on the whole, but I also don't think Ranieri has done nearly an acceptable job this season. What have you done for me lately may well be the new Premier League motto

by Guest Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:21 pm

In the unlikely event of Hull, Crystal Palace and Sunderland all winning, Leicester would be bottom of the Premiership by the end of the day.

by GSC Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:19 pm

compelling and rich wrote:so one off managers are all poor and dont deserve credit?

Straw meet man.

Obviously not.

Just as obvious that the top flight managers have all proven that they can deliver success over an extended period. If last season was clearly an anomaly for the likes of Vardy, Morgan, Mahrez etc, it's also an anomaly in Ranieris management career.

Whereas having Chelsea floating around the relegation zone is an anomaly in Jose's career.

by GSC Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:21 pm

And really these days a key part of being a manager is balancing egos and getting players to buy in.

by NickisBHAFC Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:57 pm

GSC wrote:Let's not be overly dramatic. Ranieri was taking Leicester into the Championship. This is elite level sport, there's too much riding on it for sentimentality.

He should of been allowed to take them into league one, before there was ever any consideration over his future

by GSC Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:58 pm

Well that's just stupid.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:15 pm

I would think that some would feel he's earned the right to at least try and get them back up in the event of relegation.

In the world you posit, GSC, everyone should be sacked when they're relegated - the positives they have had must all be dead if they don't succeed every season.

by GSC Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:40 pm

Success being relative. Being in the relegation zone after winning the title and spending a large amount on new signings is quite the drop. Dyche not being able to keep Burnley up last time is understandable.

But there's too much riding on PL cash even beyond the club itself to be sentimental.

by **Crimey** Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:57 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:And pre Madonna means before Madonna. Prima donna (although now commonly used as one word)

by **Crimey** Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:11 am

Apparently if Leicester can't get Gus Hiddink they will likely appoint Craig Shakespeare on a permanent basis. What a mess.

by NickisBHAFC Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:05 pm

GSC wrote:Success being relative. Being in the relegation zone after winning the title and spending a large amount on new signings is quite the drop. Dyche not being able to keep Burnley up last time is understandable.

But there's too much riding on PL cash even beyond the club itself to be sentimental.

I think you need to get it into you're head that Leicester winning the premiership is the biggest sporting miracle of all time. A team made up of players that would be lucky to get a game for championship clubs before the season started. Clear cut and rightful favourites to end bottom.

This season, there doing as expected really, including punching well well above there weight in the champions league, including a very good result in Sevilla.

Sacking sums up everything that is wrong with football these days.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:14 pm

See, you need to get into your head that owners of clubs need to strip away some romance at times. It'll cost them over 100 million pound (although it's hard to tell each sums nowadays) if they get relegated. Is sentiment worth it?

There are two sides to it and I get both

by guildfordbat Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:30 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:See, you need to get into your head that owners of clubs need to strip away some romance at times. It'll cost them over 100 million pound (although it's hard to tell each sums nowadays) if they get relegated. Is sentiment worth it?

There are two sides to it and I get both

Again as regards two sides.

Owners need to do their utmost to prevent their teams being relegated. I get that.

However, even if you could magically have the 20 greatest mangers of all time at their peak each in charge of a Premier League team, three of them would still be leading their side into the Championship come the end of the season. I'm not sure all owners get that.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:43 pm

But that isn't the world they operate in. It isn't all the managers always doing the best of their abilities and leading their squad to the same. Similar to how leagues aren't won where it's the 11 best players overall in a league where every player is performing to the best of their abilities.

These things always change. There's player dynamics and the dynamics of money.

by GSC Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:59 pm

About as expected being in the relegation zone at the end of February and having probably the worst form in the league.

Nobody expected a repeat, but probably quite a bit more than this given the club paid out heavily to both bring in new players and retain current ones (bar Kante)

by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:34 pm

2017 and Folk are still calling it the Premiership. Damn.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:44 pm

My dad still calls it Division One occasionally so you've got some time to go before it's a real problem

by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:17 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:My dad still calls it Division One occasionally so you've got some time to go before it's a real problem

Disown him Laugh

Outrageous behaviour.

by guildfordbat Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:37 pm

FreekShow wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:My dad still calls it Division One occasionally so you've got some time to go before it's a real problem

Disown him Outrageous behaviour.

For entirely selfish and name dropping reasons, I often prefer to call it the top tier. Smile

Back in the year dot, my great-uncle played for three leading English league teams. I'm not going to do down his memory and my connection by calling them Division One sides even though that's what they were then!

by GSC Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:29 pm

It'll always be the Carling cup to me

by guildfordbat Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:39 pm

GSC wrote:It'll always be the Carling cup to me

GSC - again, you show you're still too young. It's the League Cup! Wink

by GSC Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:54 pm

I actually call it the league cup irl Laugh

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:02 pm

Coca-Cola cup.

Must be the Milk cup for you Freeky

by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:42 pm

Leicester 2-0 Liverpool

Doing a Chelsea first game, post Mourinho

by **Crimey** Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:44 pm

It's Worthington Cup to me, does it even have a sponsor now?

Ranieri must feel sick if he's watching this game, those players have completely let him and the club down. Where we these performances earlier in the season?

More importantly why couldn't Leicester have sacked Ranieri after this game so that we could have won.

by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:12 pm

The Leicester bounce is giving the sacking of managers a good name. A complete transformation in effort and focus from the players.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:18 pm

Worth remembering that Leicester smashed Man City too, another team who like to press and can't defend

by **Crimey** Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:30 pm

I prefer to think of it as won't defend rather than can't defend. Whatever you can say about Liverpool, from a neutrals perspective it's rarely boring.

That said, as a fan I am starting to get bored of the same old stuff. Klopp needs to learn and change things when they're not working. He also needs to have less faith in Milner and Firmino as they don't always repay him for it.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:46 pm

One second, crimey just criticised James Milner, the best player since pele...football really has gone mad

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:48 pm

Lucas against Vardy.

Whether it's instructions or not, Liverpool by choice or otherwise are not good defensively. Naive to be kind. Klopp should take the stick for this one, too confident or arrogant to care about what they might do.

by GSC Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:01 pm

Theres no way a side with Champions League aspirations should go into a season with James Milner as their starting LB. Regardless of how it plays out, thats just negligence.

by Guest Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:04 pm

Wilfred Ndidi seems to have played the Ngole Kante role effectively. He was signed in January 2017. Only 20 years old.

by Jermaine2015 Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:00 pm

When Joel Matip is considered your best CB you know your seasons gonna be a non event.

by compelling and rich Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:18 pm

hodgson being linked with the leicester job. dont really see it as a inspiring pick if true. hodgson being defended in the media by dean kiely and phil brown kind of sums it up

but after the way they treated Claudio, they deserve Roy and his "brand" of football

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:56 pm

Woy is probably their level, and a bit above their natural level. Gonna be tarnished by perceived ideas of how his England time went, but he's always been a highly rated manager outside of Liverpool.

by Guest Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:26 pm

A quote from Leicester City's Defender Danny Simpson following the win over Liverpool - Shakespeare is a "top coach and a top guy ... He has kept it simple and told us what he wanted to do, which was simple and basic, and we've done that so let's hope we can carry it on for him." There were also images of Vardy & Shakespeare hugging lovingly during or after the match. Maybe the Leicester players wanted Shakespeare and not Ranieri.

by compelling and rich Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:21 pm

players are idiots wouldnt listen to them, theyll want someone and soon as it doesnt go thier way they'll throw him under the bus aswell. anything to stop there precious ego being hurt

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:20 pm

Ref has lost the plot at Old Trafford. Mings stamps on Ibrahimovic's head, which is missed, so a bit later Zlatan throws an obvious elbow. at Mings. Neither punished, but Surman sent off for a second yellow, which the ref has to remember is a red card.

Think Zlatan stamped on Mings first in that kerfuffle

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