Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

No 7&1/2 wrote:Last Lions tour. Tipuric was in much better form. What do you consider WC; I only ask as everyone has a seemingly slightly different definition they go by?

Not really, Tips suffers from Hooper-syndrome meaning he spent a lot of time on the wing and fans were stupid enough to think that's good play from a flanker. Only now is he playing like a flanker and as a result looks much better. His ball-handling skills are better utilized in midfield which is where he has spent more of his game-time this season, rather than standing on the wing. Well he was one of if not the best in his position in the NH back then, so that might have only left a few token 7's from a SH ahead of him. I would say if you're in the top 5 in your position in the world then you've a good claim at being 'WC'.

poorfour wrote:Centre: Joseph, Henshaw,

I think that could be an effective partnership.

A bit like a modern version of Carling (Henshaw) and Guscott (Joseph), except Henshaw is likable and Joseph can tackle.

uncle_nigel wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Last Lions tour. Tipuric was in much better form. What do you consider WC; I only ask as everyone has a seemingly slightly different definition they go by?

Not really, Tips suffers from Hooper-syndrome meaning he spent a lot of time on the wing and fans were stupid enough to think that's good play from a flanker. Only now is he playing like a flanker and as a result looks much better. His ball-handling skills are better utilized in midfield which is where he has spent more of his game-time this season, rather than standing on the wing. Well he was one of if not the best in his position in the NH back then, so that might have only left a few token 7's from a SH ahead of him. I would say if you're in the top 5 in your position in the world then you've a good claim at being 'WC'.

No, quite clearly Warburton was really struggling last tour. Top 5 fair enough he would squeeze, think I'd be looking for top 3 tops.

uncle_nigel wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Warburton.

On current form no, as there's a lot of competition and he hasn't had as much game time. I can't remember a time Warburton didn't earn his place though; world class player he is.

Do you genuinely believe he is one of the best open-sides in the World right now?

Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

I'd have Mike Brown at FB for sure.

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

He said he classed World Class as top 5 in the world though.

Scotland funnily enough have an abundance of good centres at the moment. Huw Jones, Duncan Taylor, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Matt Scott. I can imagine 2 out of that lot making the plane, especially when you consider the other options.

JJ is a certain for me, and Duncan Taylor is a Rock at 12, although I'm not sure about his fitness. A sarries poster might be able to shed some light on this.

We only have the one main Saracens fan and as it's a Saracens player you won't get any objectivity.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He said he classed World Class as top 5 in the world though.

Nigel is Stuart Hogg was World Class then?

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

reallybored wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He said he classed World Class as top 5 in the world though.

Nigel is Stuart Hogg was World Class then?

Was? No. Is? Possibly.

ruggerradge Personally I don't think Duncan Taylor will make the main 23. Far too injury prone and a lot of competition in centres.

He is a more versatile bench option though as he can play 12 or 13 and cover on the wing and perhaps could make the mid week team.

When Taylor is fit he's great but staying fit is a big issue for him. Plus centres is an area that the Lions do have some good options.

Ultimately he needs to maintain some form and fitness.

You don't consider Hogg to be in the top 5 full backs? Honestly?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't consider Hogg to be in the top 5 full backs? Honestly?

It's certainly possible.

Name the top 5.

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Well perhaps Warburton was just form and not class?  Can't remember McCaw or George Smith having such a dry spell.

Just seems ridiculous to call a player World Class when he hasn't been (by your own admission) for 5 years.

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Shock, horror, Mikey spouting utter sh!te using pi$$ poor grammar.

Top FBs in the world for me at the moment:

World Class:
Smith
Folau

Top Internationals:
Dagg
Hogg
Williams

Good internationals:
Goosen (really good player for Racing who is overlooked often but on form is better than Le Roux at the moment)
Brown
Halfpenny (he moves ahead of Williams if he is the place kicker as well)
Le Roux

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Well perhaps Warburton was just form and not class?  Can't remember McCaw or George Smith having such a dry spell.

Just seems ridiculous to call a player World Class when he hasn't been (by your own admission) for 5 years.

Well seeing as you asked me when he was last rated as 'Top 3' then no, it is not by my own admission. Silly post.

Just out of curiosity, why do people not rate Brown?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Name the top 5.

In no particular order; Folau, Williams, Hogg, Smith, Dagg.

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Well perhaps Warburton was just form and not class?  Can't remember McCaw or George Smith having such a dry spell.

Just seems ridiculous to call a player World Class when he hasn't been (by your own admission) for 5 years.

Well seeing as you asked me when he was last rated as 'Top 3' then no, it is not by my own admission. Silly post.

You stated he was a World Class player and I disagreed.

How would you define World Class then?

uncle_nigel wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Name the top 5.

In no particular order; Folau, Williams, Hogg, Smith, Dagg.

Ta. So you just meant to reply yes Hogg is world class in your view.

Brown is a good player but I think his flaws are focused on more than the likes of Hogg and Folau.

Too often I see poor decision making from full backs and not helping control the game.

Hogg and Folau are more admired because they are better athletes than Brown IMO.

Plus I think Scottish fans get excited about Hogg because he's one of their best players and one of their real hopes for a Lions starting spot.

Brown in comparison I see as a bit like a British bulldog,strong, hard, loyal, willing to keep on running but not the brightest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Name the top 5.

I'll have a go, feel free to laugh...

(in no particular order)

Ben Smith (NZ)
Stuart Hogg (Sco)
Izzy Folau (Aus)


After those 3 it gets a bit tough.
I like Halfpenny, but he's only just coming back from injury.
I like Williams but feel he is better on the wing.
I hate Mike Brown, so that must mean he's doing something right.
Kearney is superb defensively and is a great tactical kicker but lacks a bit of flair.
I like Nick Abendanon but he doesn't get picked for England.
Willie Le Roux is a tremendous player but south africa are unspeakably dire at the moment.
Tucalet is good when he gets into the game.
Spedding is good when he is good but when he is bad he is woeful.

Can't really stick my neck out apart from those 3.

For me Hogg has to start all three tests. Easily the best full back in he NH. Gatland will probably select Halfpenny or Brown though as they would be the conservative options.

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Well perhaps Warburton was just form and not class?  Can't remember McCaw or George Smith having such a dry spell.

Just seems ridiculous to call a player World Class when he hasn't been (by your own admission) for 5 years.

Well seeing as you asked me when he was last rated as 'Top 3' then no, it is not by my own admission. Silly post.

You stated he was a World Class player and I disagreed.

How would you define World Class then?

Scroll up with both eyes open and you might see it. Even 7&1/2 tried to help you out.

Brad71090 wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do people not rate Brown?

I think he had a spell when he was in the top 3 for his position. The 6N a few years back when he was (or should have been) player of the tournament. I don't think that is the case any more, although I also don't think he'd let anyone down.

Right now I think his value to us (England) due to attitude/niggle/leadership whatever far exceeds what he could bring to a scratch team. (A bit like a certain Welsh 2nd row in fact)

lostinwales wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do people not rate Brown?

I think he had a spell when he was in the top 3 for his position. The 6N a few years back when he was (or should have been) player of the tournament. I don't think that is the case any more, although I also don't think he'd let anyone down.

Right now I think his value to us (England) due to attitude/niggle/leadership whatever far exceeds what he could bring to a scratch team. (A bit like a certain Welsh 2nd row in fact)

Cory Hill?

lostinwales wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do people not rate Brown?

I think he had a spell when he was in the top 3 for his position. The 6N a few years back when he was (or should have been) player of the tournament. I don't think that is the case any more, although I also don't think he'd let anyone down.

Right now I think his value to us (England) due to attitude/niggle/leadership whatever far exceeds what he could bring to a scratch team. (A bit like a certain Welsh 2nd row in fact)

He is a hot head.

lostinwales wrote:

Brad71090 wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do people not rate Brown?

I think he had a spell when he was in the top 3 for his position. The 6N a few years back when he was (or should have been) player of the tournament. I don't think that is the case any more, although I also don't think he'd let anyone down.

Right now I think his value to us (England) due to attitude/niggle/leadership whatever far exceeds what he could bring to a scratch team. (A bit like a certain Welsh 2nd row in fact)

Mike Brown is an absolute +osser

However he is quite an accomplished full back and IMO has the best balance of all the full backs at Gatland's disposal.

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Well perhaps Warburton was just form and not class?  Can't remember McCaw or George Smith having such a dry spell.

Just seems ridiculous to call a player World Class when he hasn't been (by your own admission) for 5 years.

Well seeing as you asked me when he was last rated as 'Top 3' then no, it is not by my own admission. Silly post.

You stated he was a World Class player and I disagreed.

How would you define World Class then?

Scroll up with both eyes open and you might see it. Even 7&1/2 tried to help you out.

You're quite condescending, is it deliberate or due to an inferiority complex?

Top 5 for World Class is very generous in my book, kind of cheapens it.  

How long does a player need to stay in the Top 5 to qualify as World Class?

To qualify as world class forever as well don't forget! God, does that mean Haskell is now world class!

I still think one key reason Scotland lost to Australia was Hogg's lack of control at 15.

In the 2nd half, Australia were all over Scotland and Hogg struggled to take the pressure off.

It's a similar reason I don't rate Russell particularly high despite his promising attacking play.

A 10 needs to be able to control the game, make good tactical decisions, put the team on the front foot.

With Russell and Hogg you have two players who have flair but lack the tactical nous.

It's why Ford benefits from having Farrell next to him who can take the pressure in numerous ways - sharing the load.

Full back for the lions. Want an attacking full back it has to be Hogg. Want a defensive kicking full back its 1/2p. Want a all rounder its Brown - altho his petulance costs penalties

I want to see the lions take on NZ by attacking and outscoring them. However my guess is Gatland wants a solid defensive team.

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Well perhaps Warburton was just form and not class?  Can't remember McCaw or George Smith having such a dry spell.

Just seems ridiculous to call a player World Class when he hasn't been (by your own admission) for 5 years.

Well seeing as you asked me when he was last rated as 'Top 3' then no, it is not by my own admission. Silly post.

You stated he was a World Class player and I disagreed.

How would you define World Class then?

Scroll up with both eyes open and you might see it. Even 7&1/2 tried to help you out.

You're quite condescending, is it deliberate or due to an inferiority complex?

Top 5 for World Class is very generous in my book, kind of cheapens it.  

How long does a player need to stay in the Top 5 to qualify as World Class?

Well those terms remind me of your posts discussing Gatland and team Wales players.

I don't think so as they're happens to be a lot of good players which make it difficult to narrow it down, but for certain positions (like fly-half) I'd say you can probably list a top 3 and be accurate.

As I said, class is permanent.

Beshocked - I am not sure that was not tactical ie instructions not to kick to their back 3 but to run back long kicks and get infront of our forwards.

I have seen Hogg do the long kick thing many times. But he didn't in this game.

beshocked wrote:I still think one key reason Scotland lost to Australia was Hogg's lack of control at 15.

In the 2nd half, Australia were all over Scotland and Hogg struggled to take the pressure off.

It's a similar reason I don't rate Russell particularly high despite his promising attacking play.

A 10 needs to be able to control the game, make good tactical decisions, put the team on the front foot.

With Russell and Hogg you have two players who have flair but lack the tactical nous.

It's why Ford benefits from having Farrell next to him who can take the pressure in numerous ways - sharing the load.

Harsh!!

I would agree that Scotland have a poor kicking game but imo a lot of that comes from Laidlaw dictating so much of our play from 9.

A better team would have made sure Australia had to attack from their own half in the final 10 minutes, hopefully we'll learn.

Brown costs pens when exactly? My first 2 choices would be Hogg then Williams but both could be considered more the hot head and riskier.

I really do believe that "World Class" is a very unhelpful concept. Rugby's a team game, and if players look good it's often at least as much because they're in a team that utilises their skills properly. On the other hand, you just as often see teams stuffed with talent that don't gel.

Eddie Jones is proof of that. Same players as Lancaster had; better results. Some of that - especially towards the end of the year - is down to improving player fitness. But mostly it's down to clarity of role and building a team that complements each other. Farrell at 12, Haskell at 7 were widely seen as questionable decisions before we'd seen them in action. Now Farrell is seriously considered as a potential Lions 12 and Haskell has made some people's squads despite being injured for 6 months.

In 2011, Gatland went for a kind of Wales+ - start with the Welsh squad and gameplan, and add players who could play that game as well as or better than the Welsh lads.

It didn't really work, I think because it tried to shoehorn players into predefined roles. I don't think it will work against the ABs, not least because they know how to counter that gameplan. I hope that this time Gatland and his team will look at the available player pool and come up with a plan to make the most of the team's strengths and points of difference - which probably means they will also need a few utility/workhorse players in the squad to cover off everything else that needs to get done.

no 7 1/2 - I have seen him give away numerous penalties over the years with his petulant behaviour.    also when the red mist descends you are less effective as a player.

Hogg has calmed down a lot over the last year or so. I think he realised / was told and changed his behaviour.

beshocked wrote:I still think one key reason Scotland lost to Australia was Hogg's lack of control at 15.

In the 2nd half, Australia were all over Scotland and Hogg struggled to take the pressure off.

It's a similar reason I don't rate Russell particularly high despite his promising attacking play.

A 10 needs to be able to control the game, make good tactical decisions, put the team on the front foot.

With Russell and Hogg you have two players who have flair but lack the tactical nous.

It's why Ford benefits from having Farrell next to him who can take the pressure in numerous ways - sharing the load.

As a Scottish fan, I would probably agree that both need to be more conservative at points. However, we don't have players anywhere close to their quality in the positions they play, and sometimes their attacking play can spark something out of nothing. Russell is only in his third season as a professional, i'm sure as he gets more experience a greater degree of control will emerge.

Brown gives pens away for holding on mainly. Never seen him cross the line when seeing red. I have seen Williams drop a sly knee after conceding a try and Hogg sent off for Scotland though. Brown fronts up as discussed last week, very very rarely gets even close to crossing the line.

TJ wrote:Full back for the lions.  Want an attacking full back it has to be Hogg.  Want a defensive kicking full back its 1/2p.  Want a all rounder its Brown - altho his petulance costs penalties

I want to see the lions take on NZ by attacking and outscoring them.  However my guess is Gatland wants a solid defensive team.

I cannot recall Brown giving any penalties away due to his antics?

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

reallybored wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:Not right now, but I'm sure with a run of games he could get back there.

When was the last time in your opinion that he was in the top 3 open-sides in the World?

Not sure I remember rating him as 'top 3' as you put it, but when thinking about that I'd say 2011.

So half a decade ago and you still consider him a World Class player?

Class is permanent .

Shock, horror, Angry Scot getting angry at someone rating a Welsh player!

Well perhaps Warburton was just form and not class?  Can't remember McCaw or George Smith having such a dry spell.

Just seems ridiculous to call a player World Class when he hasn't been (by your own admission) for 5 years.

Well seeing as you asked me when he was last rated as 'Top 3' then no, it is not by my own admission. Silly post.

You stated he was a World Class player and I disagreed.

How would you define World Class then?

Scroll up with both eyes open and you might see it. Even 7&1/2 tried to help you out.

You're quite condescending, is it deliberate or due to an inferiority complex?

Top 5 for World Class is very generous in my book, kind of cheapens it.  

How long does a player need to stay in the Top 5 to qualify as World Class?

Well those terms remind me of your posts discussing Gatland and team Wales players.

I don't think so as they're happens to be a lot of good players which make it difficult to narrow it down, but for certain positions (like fly-half) I'd say you can probably list a top 3 and be accurate.

As I said, class is permanent.

there

For certain positions it's a Top 3 but others it's a Top 5?  That sounds very wishy washy, if we can't decide lets give everyone a medal nonsense.

imo there's been a distinct lack of quality test open-sides, especially from the NH.

When was the last time Warburton turned in a run of World Class performance?

Brad71090 wrote:

TJ wrote:Full back for the lions.  Want an attacking full back it has to be Hogg.  Want a defensive kicking full back its 1/2p.  Want a all rounder its Brown - altho his petulance costs penalties

I want to see the lions take on NZ by attacking and outscoring them.  However my guess is Gatland wants a solid defensive team.

I cannot recall Brown giving any penalties away due to his antics?

Brown is a red card waiting to happen.