Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

reallybored wrote:

When did Sexton last win something?

A game against the ABs? Isn't that where the Lions are going?

reallybored wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

reallybored wrote:Farrell would be my fly-half without a moments hesitation.

Best goal-kicker (imo).
Defensively very strong.
Winning mentality/leadership (6N Grand Slam, Aviva Prem & European Cup holder).

May not be as good with ball in hand as Ford or Sexton but it's not a weakness.

The reasons you have given dont set him apart from the competition:

Best goal-kicker (imo). - Yes probably better than Sexton here, just.
Defensively very strong. - Not as good defender as Sexton.
Winning mentality/leadership (6N Grand Slam, Aviva Prem & European Cup holder). - Hasn't won as much as Sexton, twice six nations, 3 Heineken cups, 1 Lions tour, multiple pro 12.

Sexton as you say is also better with ball in hand.

I dont see your logic.

What are you basing Sexton being a better defender on?

When did Sexton last win something?

He won the six nations last year and he was in the pro 12 final earlier this year. 2016 was the only year of his career that he hasn't won a trophy but hey he beat the all blacks this year so not so bad.

Celtic League/Magners League/Pro 12: 2007–08, 2012–13
Heineken Cup: 2008–09, 2010–11, 2011–12
Amlin Cup: 2013
Six Nations Championship: 2014, 2015
Churchill Cup: 2009
Lions Tour 2013

He clearly has won a lot more than Farrell.

I don't think Sexton will even tour to be honest and Gatland has hinted as much.

I think he needs some time away from the game to let his body recover. He can still have a strong finish to his career but like Jonny Wilkinson the physical way he defends has taken it's toll and the durability is not there anymore.

I think the 3 fly halves will be Farrell, Ford and Biggar/Russell.

I agree with this. I think Farrell will travel, the fact he can play 12 helps too. Otherwise I see a three way shootout between Ford, Biggar and Russel with Cipriani pecking away in the background.

I really hope they don't take Russell. The way he plays is not Gatlands way and I can see his confidence being damaged by going

So the central catalyst of an Irish sizeable victory over the AB is surplus to requirements for Gatland's Lions?

Yeah - reasonable balderdash

But grand for Joe if Sexton misses the Lions.poolside larks and selfies. He'll have Best and Sexton for his own Summer tour.

I think Biggar will travel. And if hes fit and on form he will probably start.

BUt then Sexton is top class.

Good position to be in for Gatland. 3/4 very very good 10's to choose from.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Biggar will travel. And if hes fit and on form he will probably start.

I sincerely hope not

I'd have Sexton starting too.

I'd then try out Sexton - Henshaw - Joseph and Sexton - Farrell - Joseph midfield partnerships to see which looks the best, then have whichever of Henshaw/Farrell doesn't start in the 22 shirt

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

reallybored wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

reallybored wrote:Farrell would be my fly-half without a moments hesitation.

Best goal-kicker (imo).
Defensively very strong.
Winning mentality/leadership (6N Grand Slam, Aviva Prem & European Cup holder).

May not be as good with ball in hand as Ford or Sexton but it's not a weakness.

The reasons you have given dont set him apart from the competition:

Best goal-kicker (imo). - Yes probably better than Sexton here, just.
Defensively very strong. - Not as good defender as Sexton.
Winning mentality/leadership (6N Grand Slam, Aviva Prem & European Cup holder). - Hasn't won as much as Sexton, twice six nations, 3 Heineken cups, 1 Lions tour, multiple pro 12.

Sexton as you say is also better with ball in hand.

I dont see your logic.

What are you basing Sexton being a better defender on?

When did Sexton last win something?

He won the six nations last year and he was in the pro 12 final earlier this year. 2016 was the only year of his career that he hasn't won a trophy but hey he beat the all blacks this year so not so bad.

Celtic League/Magners League/Pro 12: 2007–08, 2012–13
Heineken Cup: 2008–09, 2010–11, 2011–12
Amlin Cup: 2013
Six Nations Championship: 2014, 2015
Churchill Cup: 2009
Lions Tour 2013

He clearly has won a lot more than Farrell.

Sexton may have won more over his career but in the last 12 months Farrell has won more and been an integral part of the most successful NH teams (England & Sarries), that's more important imo.

Farrell nailed on to travel.
Ford / Biggar / Sexton fighting it out for other 2 spots.
Jackson / Russell possible bolters.

SecretFly wrote:So the central catalyst of an Irish sizeable victory over the AB is surplus to requirements for Gatland's Lions?

Yeah - reasonable balderdash

But grand for Joe if Sexton misses the Lions.poolside larks and selfies.  He'll have Best and Sexton for his own Summer tour.

Not wanting to start a sh!t fight but the absence of Whitelock & Retallick was probably more important to the result.

To be fair Farrell has beaten the ABs too.

reallybored wrote:
Sexton may have won more over his career but in the last 12 months Farrell has won more and been an integral part of the most successful NH teams (England & Sarries), that's more important imo.

Farrell nailed on to travel.
Ford / Biggar / Sexton fighting it out for other 2 spots.
Jackson / Russell possible bolters.

Haha Farrell isnt nailed on for anything yet. He hasnt even played out half for England this year. He will probably in the squad but probably as a centre rather than an OH.

beshocked wrote:To be fair Farrell has beaten the ABs too.

So has Freddie Burns but it was a long time ago in any case.

reallybored wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So the central catalyst of an Irish sizeable victory over the AB is surplus to requirements for Gatland's Lions?

Yeah - reasonable balderdash

But grand for Joe if Sexton misses the Lions.poolside larks and selfies.  He'll have Best and Sexton for his own Summer tour.

Not wanting to start a sh!t fight but the absence of Whitelock & Retallick was probably more important to the result.

Yeah. I get your point. Ireland didn't win - New Zealand lost.
English and Welsh and even Scottish players are now more suited to the quality of opposition the ABs will present at home from here on in. 'Thanks for the tips Ireland but we'll take it from here'.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:To be fair Farrell has beaten the ABs too.

So has Freddie Burns.

Would you pick Burns to face the ABs?

reallybored wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So the central catalyst of an Irish sizeable victory over the AB is surplus to requirements for Gatland's Lions?

Yeah - reasonable balderdash

But grand for Joe if Sexton misses the Lions.poolside larks and selfies.  He'll have Best and Sexton for his own Summer tour.

Not wanting to start a sh!t fight but the absence of Whitelock & Retallick was probably more important to the result.

So if Scotland are missing two players and lose, the result doesn't matter as much as the two missing players? What happened to strength in depth?

I will remember that should we lose to Scotland in the 6N's. We are bound to be missing a player or two. "Nope, Scotland didn't really beat Ireland because Ireland were missing ......."

Edited, but just doesn't seem credible now  

Munchkin wrote:

reallybored wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So the central catalyst of an Irish sizeable victory over the AB is surplus to requirements for Gatland's Lions?

Yeah - reasonable balderdash

But grand for Joe if Sexton misses the Lions.poolside larks and selfies.  He'll have Best and Sexton for his own Summer tour.

Not wanting to start a sh!t fight but the absence of Whitelock & Retallick was probably more important to the result.

So if England are missing two players and lose, the result doesn't matter as much as the two missing players? What happened to strength in depth?

I will remember that should we lose to England in the 6N's. We are bound to be missing a player or two. "Nope, England didn't really beat Ireland because Ireland were missing ......."

He's Scottish, where did England come into this !!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

reallybored wrote:
Sexton may have won more over his career but in the last 12 months Farrell has won more and been an integral part of the most successful NH teams (England & Sarries), that's more important imo.

Farrell nailed on to travel.
Ford / Biggar / Sexton fighting it out for other 2 spots.
Jackson / Russell possible bolters.

Haha Farrell isnt nailed on for anything yet. He hasnt even played out half for England this year. He will probably in the squad but probably as a centre rather than an OH.

That's why he's nailed on to travel not because he's definitely first choice FH.

May not have played FH for England this season but he does for Saracens and they're probably the best NH club right now.

BamBam wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

reallybored wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So the central catalyst of an Irish sizeable victory over the AB is surplus to requirements for Gatland's Lions?

Yeah - reasonable balderdash

But grand for Joe if Sexton misses the Lions.poolside larks and selfies.  He'll have Best and Sexton for his own Summer tour.

Not wanting to start a sh!t fight but the absence of Whitelock & Retallick was probably more important to the result.

So if England are missing two players and lose, the result doesn't matter as much as the two missing players? What happened to strength in depth?

I will remember that should we lose to England in the 6N's. We are bound to be missing a player or two. "Nope, England didn't really beat Ireland because Ireland were missing ......."

He's Scottish, where did England come into this !!

Sorry, England's my default nation for blame

I will amend!

Anyway, what's a Scot doing on a lions thread?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:To be fair Farrell has beaten the ABs too.

So has Freddie Burns but it was a long time ago in any case.

Freddie's dad's not on the coaching team though...

Scotland have been missing loads of great players for years*. Does this mean we won the 6 nations?




* Missing as in not on the planet

rodders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:To be fair Farrell has beaten the ABs too.

So has Freddie Burns but it was a long time ago in any case.

Freddie's dad's not on the coaching team though...

To be fair to Farrell, he is playing well and IMO merits inclusion based on that as opposed to daddy being in the coaching team.

IMO pick the best in their positions and see who rises to the top in the matches leading up to the tests. Under that logic Sexton and Farrell travel.

You might even see both in the same team. Sexton at 10 and Farrell at 12.

Yes he probably does but not necessarily as starting OH.

TJ wrote:Ok - so we don't even have consensus over Sexton!

At least we have a consensus on coaches

Not a good one. But one none the less

I think fitness willing that Sexton, Farrell and Biggar would be the flyhalf choices - with Farrell giving the option to play at centre either off the bench or to cover a bench selection with 5 or 6 forward replacements.  Chances of all 3 being fit are probably slim though.

Other choices thrown in seem fairly low chance with Gatland as coach - is Ford really a Gatland type player?

It doesn't really matter what a player has won individually, it is what they can bring to the team/squad.  So the "my dad is bigger than your dad" arguments are a bit childish.  All 3 of the above are top international players and has something to offer.

beshocked wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:To be fair Farrell has beaten the ABs too.

So has Freddie Burns.

Would you pick Burns to face the ABs?

Not with that barnet.

I'd go with Ford, Farrell and Sexton, think that gives the best contrast of styles and options

Ford - the attacking maestro, but a weak goalkicker
Sexton - other than durabiliy, no obvious weakness
Farrell - defensive strength, best goal kicker imo

Biggar is a good fly half, but I don't think he's better than any of the 3. His high ball game is his main point of difference but is that enough? (Silly kicking routine aside)

In fairness Farrell's kicking routine smacks of attention seeking a little too.

Regarding the captaincy, Warburton is still bookies favorite and just had a very good game. If he remains fit and plays himself back into contention as the starter at 7 for Wales than i would suggest that with Hartley clearly making himself unsuitable if not unavailable, Warburton still stands a decent chance of being skipper. For those that dismiss that out of hand remember that Gatland regards continuity as a key component for another successful tour.

Right now it looks like this to me:
AWJ, Best, Warburton.

Gwlad.

We are never going to agree on this, so lets agree to disagree.

I still do not think AWJ will be on the Lions tour let alone be captain of the Lions. Age is AWJ problem/ it catches up with every body.

The captaincy as been between Best, Hartley.  But will Hartley still be in contention for the Lions following his lates red card?

The selection of Captain is going to be a real headace for Gatland. IMO.

With regards to Warburton  "he has to stay fit" no excuses. Then he may be in with a chance, a small chance.

If the captain as to be a forward, then it could well go to Jamie Heaslip. If he can keep Toby Faletau out, with Billy V not looking good for the tour it will be a real battle between them two.

Then there is all ways Joe Launchberry, Johny Grey.

Munchkin wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

reallybored wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So the central catalyst of an Irish sizeable victory over the AB is surplus to requirements for Gatland's Lions?

Yeah - reasonable balderdash

But grand for Joe if Sexton misses the Lions.poolside larks and selfies.  He'll have Best and Sexton for his own Summer tour.

Not wanting to start a sh!t fight but the absence of Whitelock & Retallick was probably more important to the result.

So if England are missing two players and lose, the result doesn't matter as much as the two missing players? What happened to strength in depth?

I will remember that should we lose to England in the 6N's. We are bound to be missing a player or two. "Nope, England didn't really beat Ireland because Ireland were missing ......."

He's Scottish, where did England come into this !!

Sorry, England's my default nation for blame

I will amend!

Anyway, what's a Scot doing on a lions thread?

What are you talking about? Everyone needs a team doctor.

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwlad.

We are never going to agree on this, so lets agree to disagree.

I still do not think AWJ will be on the Lions tour let alone be captain of the Lions. Age is AWJ problem/ it catches up with every body.

The captaincy as been between Best, Hartley.  But will Hartley still be in contention for the Lions following his lates red card?

The selection of Captain is going to be a real headace for Gatland. IMO.

With regards to Warburton  "he has to stay fit" no excuses. Then he may be in with a chance, a small chance.

If the captain as to be a forward, then it could well go to Jamie Heaslip. If he can keep Toby Faletau out, with Billy V not looking good for the tour it will be a real battle between them two.

Then there is all ways Joe Launchberry, Johny Grey.

Er, Heaslip is 2 years older than AWJ….age not caught up with him yet?

You think AWJ might not tour but Heaslip might be Lions Capt?

Oh and Hartley…based on what? lions experience? Lions captaincy experience? Temperament? Behaviour under pressure? Relationship with head coach? Being Best in his position?
Or being a dirty player who, while Captain of his country, has shown himself up. Not exactly Captaincy material let alone Lions Captain.

I agree, lets disagree.

Er, Heaslip is 2 years older than AWJ….age not caught up with him yet?


He does not look it. Compaired to AWJ i mean.

The problem for both AWJ and Warburton is they play in positions where there are many choices

TJ wrote:The problem for both AWJ and Warburton is they play in positions where there are many choices

agree and personally i don't want it to be Warburton. AWJ yes and you are right about the choices.

But there aren't many national captains and winning Lions skippers amongst that group….i would be very happy with Rory Best and disgusted if it's Hartley.

I'd take AWJ. I'd leave Warburton at home completely.

Griff wrote:I'd take AWJ. I'd leave Warburton at home completely.

bookies disagree….i think he probably knows that his Lions tour depends on the 6 Nations and if he has a very good 6 Nations then he will slide straight back in at the top in Gatland's mind. He is a quality 7 and highly experienced as a leader under Gatland and as a lion, additionally highly reputed by referees and when on form still one of the best in the world….however he has definitely seen a dip in form in the last 2 seasons at least coupled with injury.
I would say that Wales players to greater extent than the others, have a lot riding on the 6 Nations after a dismal autumn. Their familiarity with Howley and Gatland could be a double edged sword. While i think we all know certain players are virtually inked in to tour if fit : JD2, Half, North, L Williams, Faletau, AWJ, Warburton…if players like North, Warburton and AWJ have a poor 6 Nations they aren't guaranteed to go.

Gwlad wrote:

Griff wrote:I'd take AWJ. I'd leave Warburton at home completely.

bookies disagree….i think he probably knows that his Lions tour depends on the 6 Nations and if he has a very good 6 Nations then he will slide straight back in at the top in Gatland's mind. He is a quality 7 and highly experienced as a leader under Gatland and as a lion, additionally highly reputed by referees and when on form still one of the best in the world….however he has definitely seen a dip in form in the last 2 seasons at least coupled with injury.
I would say that Wales players to greater extent than the others, have a lot riding on the 6 Nations after a dismal autumn. Their familiarity with Howley and Gatland could be a double edged sword. While i think we all know certain players are virtually inked in to tour if fit : JD2, Half, North, L Williams, Faletau, AWJ, Warburton…if players like North, Warburton and AWJ have a poor 6 Nations they aren't guaranteed to go.

You see, I'm not convinced that he is a quality 7. Maybe a few years back. But he's always on his way back from injury these days and never really reaching the peaks of a few years back before he's injured again. Nice guy though. But that's not enough.

From your list above, and based solely on my own opinion so please take with a pinch of salt, I'd only take Liam Williams, Faletau, AWJ, Halfpenny currently. Others: possibly Biggar, maybe Webb, maybe Tipuric, maybe Scott Williams, but I can see they're in competition with other very good players in their position so couldn't argue if others got picked in front of them. North needs to have a massive 2nd half of the season but I feel that when on form he could be an asset to the Lions. But he is not in that form now. JD2 hasn't had it for a few years for me. Not sure if he can get it back between now and selection and I feel there are a number of better centres. The thing is that in Wales we are sort of stuck with some of these due to our lack of depth, hence Gats still picks them when out of form in the hope being in camp and on the big stage can help them get back to peak. But with the Lions we have the luxury of picking from 4 countries, so no need to take the guys only in national sides due to lack of suitable alternatives. I know I'm setting myself up for someone to shout 'Sounds like AWJ!', but whatever! I like him!

The Lions are potentially sending 5 players to NZ who have been red carded in internationals (Heaslip, Stander, Hogg, Warburton, and Daly). Could be a feisty old affair if there are any repeats of knees to the head, kamikaze late tackles to smash against unprotected opponents, tip tackles and taking out players in the air.

It'll be interesting to see if any of these (or others) see the red mist and whether NZ will be as 'committed' as when they dismantled Ireland in Dublin recently.

You need a strong captain like Hartley so bring order to that chaos...

Cyril wrote:The Lions are potentially sending 5 players to NZ who have been red carded in internationals (Heaslip, Stander, Hogg, Warburton, and Daly). Could be a feisty old affair if there are any repeats of knees to the head, kamikaze late tackles to smash against unprotected opponents, tip tackles and taking out players in the air.

It'll be interesting to see if any of these (or others) see the red mist and whether NZ will be as 'committed' as when they dismantled Ireland in Dublin recently.

You need a strong captain like Hartley so bring order to that chaos...

Best argument for Hartley as Captain that I've seen so far.

Hogg has certainly calmed down since then. Quite a changed character. He got a couple of expensive lessons that being one and also over diving where having dived once he didn't get other pens he should have for fouls against him. Being a father as well has helped.

I don't have any concerns over him now. Can't think when I last saw the petulant brat from him

TJ wrote:Hogg has certainly calmed down since then.  Quite a changed character.  He got a couple of expensive lessons that being one and also over diving where having dived once he didn't get other pens he should have for fouls against him.  Being a father as well has helped.

I don't have any concerns over him now.  Can't think when I last saw the petulant brat from him

It's innate. It'll be back. Like Hartley.

Griff wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Griff wrote:I'd take AWJ. I'd leave Warburton at home completely.

bookies disagree….i think he probably knows that his Lions tour depends on the 6 Nations and if he has a very good 6 Nations then he will slide straight back in at the top in Gatland's mind. He is a quality 7 and highly experienced as a leader under Gatland and as a lion, additionally highly reputed by referees and when on form still one of the best in the world….however he has definitely seen a dip in form in the last 2 seasons at least coupled with injury.
I would say that Wales players to greater extent than the others, have a lot riding on the 6 Nations after a dismal autumn. Their familiarity with Howley and Gatland could be a double edged sword. While i think we all know certain players are virtually inked in to tour if fit : JD2, Half, North, L Williams, Faletau, AWJ, Warburton…if players like North, Warburton and AWJ have a poor 6 Nations they aren't guaranteed to go.

You see, I'm not convinced that he is a quality 7. Maybe a few years back. But he's always on his way back from injury these days and never really reaching the peaks of a few years back before he's injured again. Nice guy though. But that's not enough.

From your list above, and based solely on my own opinion so please take with a pinch of salt, I'd only take Liam Williams, Faletau, AWJ, Halfpenny currently. Others: possibly Biggar, maybe Webb, maybe Tipuric, maybe Scott Williams, but I can see they're in competition with other very good players in their position so couldn't argue if others got picked in front of them. North needs to have a massive 2nd half of the season but I feel that when on form he could be an asset to the Lions. But he is not in that form now. JD2 hasn't had it for a few years for me. Not sure if he can get it back between now and selection and I feel there are a number of better centres. The thing is that in Wales we are sort of stuck with some of these due to our lack of depth, hence Gats still picks them when out of form in the hope being in camp and on the big stage can help them get back to peak. But with the Lions we have the luxury of picking from 4 countries, so no need to take the guys only in national sides due to lack of suitable alternatives. I know I'm setting myself up for someone to shout 'Sounds like AWJ!', but whatever! I like him!

AWJ is a very good player and his experience will help him and he will tour. He has a long way to go and get a starting place, mind.

Warburton is miles off touring as a flanker right now. Maybe he'll make it, but right now he's not in the top 8 selectable flankers. He's not the best 6 or 7 in Wales right now!

Riskysports wrote:

TJ wrote:Ok - so we don't even have consensus over Sexton!

At least we have a consensus on coaches

Not a good one. But one none the less

Surely we have a consensus over Faletau at 8? Gatland is picking, Vunipola won't recover in time.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Warburton is miles off touring as a flanker right now. Maybe he'll make it, but right now he's not in the top 8 selectable flankers. He's not the best 6 or 7 in Wales right now!

No he is in the same position as everyone else, except Hartley who better go back to fly fishing. Look point is wherever anyone is now, the 6 Nations will determine who goes and who stays, bar a few exceptions e.g. Gethin who will go if fit. Yes AWJ and Warbs not best in rankings of who is on top form but there is MORE TO THIS THAN FORM…what else do players bring to the table for a touring side? I've toured with great players at my club who were fecking awful on even a 3 week tour. Take Cipriani for instance, everyone knows he's a wrong'un which is why he hasn't made it for England, but does he have something special for the touring side. AWJ and Sam do, its called EXPERIENCE on a winning Lions tour. And as Captains to boot.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

TJ wrote:Ok - so we don't even have consensus over Sexton!

At least we have a consensus on coaches

Not a good one. But one none the less

Surely we have a consensus over Faletau at 8? Gatland is picking, Vunipola won't recover in time.

I would have said 'yes' before this autumn international series. 

Now it would be very difficult to say that Jamie Heaslip isn't yerman.