6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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WALES v ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

It was an interesting bit of playing the media and fans by Jones to name Itoje at 6 but play him in the row. Itoje was scrummaging in the boiler room alongside Launchbury, with Lawes on the flank.

Had Jones named them that way round on the team sheet the majority of ourselves and the pundits would have made a furore about Lawes being back on the flank after his last outing there, also against Wales.

I thought Lawes had an excellent game whilst Itoje was once again more subdued. Although Itoje went about his work quietly and did little wrong although nothing stand out either.

TightHEAD wrote:Few pints into a very long evening ahead now, and I'm blooming loving it

Was never quite sure if you were an infant or an alcoholic

Now we know. Thanks for clearing that up

For what it's worth I don't think the swapping of Lawes and Itoje in the scrums was pre-planned. In fact I seem to remember that Lawes packed down behind Marler in the first few scrums with Launchbury behind Cole. The change came after Launchbury got hurt during the first half, looked upper body/ chest maybe some shoulder. He then moved across to behind Marler after the injury. Lawes has had ongoing shoulder issues for a while and packs down behind the LH for Saints as a result. Simon Shaw used to be only able to pack down behind the LH too later in his career because of shoulder issues. Think yesterday it was more a case that Itoje was the only option of the 3 left who could pack down on the right behind Cole.

Feel Lawes often doesn't get the credit he deserves so I'm glad to see some are noticing his influence more. Always the one out of the 4 second rows who people want to jettison but he's gone well so far and did in AI's too, one of the players of that series. Good engine, nearly always plays the full 80. Also called the line out well too, think it was 9-0.

Yes I think your right B912912.
It just puts into context what an outstanding effort Launch put in with all those tackles and carries.

Cracking game that could have gone either way. However, I always felt England looked more dangerous with ball in hand.
The bench played its part, given our missing back row players it's a shame Hask still isn't fully fit. He looked to be struggling in the tunnel post match.
Hartley & Marler still look a bit off the pace to.

Agreed it was a top effort by Launchbury especially considering the injury he picked up. In fairness to Jiffy Davis he made plenty of references to his performance even before England took the lead.Wasnt just a case of him wanting to give mom to a player from the winning side so they give the happier post game interview!

Thought Marler went okay, better than last week and got through a lot of defensive work but agree about Hartley. Even as a Saints fan think George deserves the starting spot now, captain or not. We know it's generally easier to make an impression against tiring defences but it's every time with George and we are not going to know for sure unless he's given his chance from the start. Unfortunately I feel his game is more suited than Hartley's to being an impact sub but if he continues at the level he's shown in these last two cameos then I'd rather take 60 mins over the 35 he got today.

Was Haskell struggling with an injury or just knackered? I hoped he would be released next weekend for at least some game time with Wasps and then be okay to start the Italy with more minutes under his belt.

majesticimperialman wrote:So Sam Warburton was paying England a compliment when he said England can be compared to the All Blacks.

So thank you Sam, you gave England the driving force to beat Wales today.

Did that make loads of sense in your head? So England only wanted to win the game yesterday, because of a compliment from Sam Warburton?

Just watched the highlights of the game, looked very intense and the defending was brilliant from both sides. I must say though, I thought Cuthbert should have brought Daly down for England's last try, it was a weak effort.

Can I just check where the Sam Davies bandwagon is off the back of Biggars performance?

England can't keep riding their luck like this. They were outplayed for the majority of that game ...only picking up 3 points in about 50 minutes. Arguably outplayed by France too.
The Irish really must fancy a solid crack at breaking what is a pretty incredible run of wins.

The injuries to the forwards and some questionable form in the backs leaves them a weaker side than last year. It just takes someone to get their game together.

Great second half discipline from England , Daleys raw pace, and a piece of terrible decision making cost Wales what could have been quite a hefty victory.

A good win for England

Wales were poorly managed by Howley.

This keeping the ball in play at all times is foolish.

maestegmafia wrote:

Was never quite sure if you were an infant or an alcoholic

Now we know. Thanks for clearing that up

What a stupid comment.

B91212 wrote:Thought Marler went okay, better than last week and got through a lot of defensive work  but agree about Hartley. Even as a Saints fan think George deserves the starting spot now, captain or not. We know it's generally easier to make an impression against tiring defences but it's every time with George and we are not going to know for sure unless he's given his chance from the start. Unfortunately I feel his game is more suited than Hartley's to being an impact sub but if he continues at the level he's shown in these last two cameos then I'd rather take 60 mins over the 35 he got today.

Reversing the order Hartley and George play in makes no sense. Hartley either starts or is dropped. He is not an impact player. Maybe it is time to start with George with Taylor on the bench.

The same applies to Youngs and Care. Youngs is not a 'finisher' to use Jones' word and Care has proved over the years he is not a starter. I would like to see Robson start with Care on the bench.

Gooseberry wrote:Can I just check where the Sam Davies bandwagon is off the back of Biggars performance?

England can't keep riding their luck like this. They were outplayed for the majority of that game ...only picking up 3 points in about 50 minutes. Arguably outplayed by France too.
The Irish really must fancy a solid crack at breaking what is a pretty incredible run of wins.

The injuries to the forwards and some questionable form in the backs leaves them a weaker side than last year.  It just takes someone to get their game together.  

Great second half discipline from England , Daleys raw pace, and a piece of terrible decision making cost Wales what could have been quite a hefty victory.

The comment about scoring absolutely goes both ways. Wales may have made chances but they only scored 3 points in the second half. For all their commitment they did not look like scoring a try in that time and the England discipline was superb.

In recent years we have been very bad at giving up penalties, and in Halfpenny and Biggar Wales have two great kickers, but they just did not get that same platform to accumulate points this time around.

Both teams deserve huge credit for their performances. In hindsight neither were perfect. Wales were significantly better on the ground, they seemed to hold the ball more (stats say 50-50) kept England in our on own half more but England kept going to the final whistle and were better at manufacturing points. Funny thing is points win games.

England are a different beast from last year with those key players missing. It wouldn't surprise me if the Scotland and Ireland games are equally as tight. But they are still very very hard to breakdown and they have the ability to score points at any time in the game. it is still going to take a monumental effort to beat them.

B91212 wrote:For what it's worth I don't think the swapping of Lawes and Itoje in the scrums was pre-planned. In fact I seem to remember that Lawes packed down behind Marler in the first few scrums with Launchbury behind Cole. The change came after Launchbury got hurt during the first half, looked upper body/ chest maybe some shoulder. He then moved across to behind Marler after the injury. Lawes has had ongoing shoulder issues for a while and packs down behind the LH for Saints as a result. Simon Shaw used to be only able to pack down behind the LH too later in his career because of shoulder issues. Think yesterday it was more a case that Itoje was the only option of the 3 left who could pack down on the right behind Cole.

Feel Lawes often doesn't get the credit he deserves so I'm glad to see some are noticing his influence more. Always the one out of the 4 second rows who people want to jettison but he's gone well so far and did in AI's too, one of the players of that series. Good engine, nearly always plays the full 80. Also called the line out well too, think it was 9-0.

Not disputing any of that but i'm pretty sure that Itoje was packing down in the second row from the first scrum and I think it was just a tactic to use his extra power.

England have conceded 16 points in the first two Six Nations games. If you do that, you're always going to be in with a shot of winning, and probably aren't going to be going into the last 20 more than one score behind. England have the best bench in the tournament for my money, so there always going to look to ramp up the last 20.

As it turns out, England were 13-8 and 16-11 down at worst against Wales, so never cut adrift. Similarly, I think it was 16-12 against France going into the latter stages. Fair play to England for not letting themselves get buried when the other team has their tails up, and giving themselves a chance to win it at the death.

Looking ahead at Italy, at home, it's a must have 5 points. Ireland currently have two bonus points to our none, so we need to start racking them up now. If Scotland win today, they're also well and truly in the title race, and bonus points could end up being crucial if we lose one of our last two games.

I don't think we should be making too many changes, but George, Haskell and Te'o are the ones being most strongly talked about. I don't see that Hartley can't bench, and I think some of his best performances have come after (albeit often self-inflicted) adversity, so I think Jones dropping him might give him a bit of extra motivation to come off the bench and prove himself. However, I think playing 20-30 minutes over the next 3 weeks wouldn't be good for him, so I'd send him back to Northampton this week.

Mako and Kruis might be fit and could come into the squad at the expense of Mullan and Wood, but equally Jones could hold them back if they weren't quite ready.

Not considering these options, I think it will be interesting to see how he juggles his 23 around. He could bring Haskell into the starting line-up for Clifford, with Clifford moving onto the bench as a finisher and an option at 7 or 8. He could bring on Haskell for one of the three locks and play with more balance, or he could bring on Wood and Haskell for Clifford and one of the locks.

In the backs, if he is to bring in Te'o you would think that's for Ford or Joseph. Or he could bring in Te'o for Ford and May for Joseph or Brown, with Daly moving off the wing, as this game might be a chance to try something slightly different. You'd expect whoever drops out of the backs to move to the bench, with no change to the 10 names in the squad, just shuffling the starters.

A 23 of:
Marler, George, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Hughes
Youngs, Farrell, May, Te'o, Daly, Nowell, Brown
Mako Vunipola or Mullan, Hartley, Sinckler, Kruis or Wood, Clifford, Care, Ford, Joseph

Should offer enough consistency to not disjoint our entire 6 Nations and also get the required bonus point, but is also looks to reward the players performing well from the bench and possibly take the team to the next level.

The back row still needs a little work, but looks so much better for the inclusion of Haskell, and will be fine when Robshaw and Vunipola come back. To be 2 from 2 without those two and with our fixture lists bodes well for now and for the future.

Finally, a note on Wales. I think Wales looked as good as I've seen them look recently and a lot of times I was on the edge of my seat to see if England's defence would hold out. Yes, they turned down a couple of shots at goal, but I think the try was as a result of that sustained pressure, and maybe taking the 3 would have allowed England to have cleared their lines at 9-8 down rather than 13-8, and possibly even sneak a penalty and the lead for themselves before half time. The desire to keep the ball in was possibly due to their fears over the line-out (if so they would have been unfounded, considering the stats), but it was just an error at the end as a bit of panic set in (as highlighted after the game, Biggar was standing up and if he'd had one more phase he would have been into position to clear).

I think Wales will reap the rewards if they keep playing this way. Obviously with North back you will be able to strengthen your back 3, Webb probably won't be that poor again (and if he is you have a fine back-up in Davies) it's just the tight 5 you're a little light, but with young players coming through in this area it should just be a matter of time.

Talking about replacements, just wander why when Wales made the subs why Howley did not bring on Sam Davies the same time Jamie Roberts came on and take JD2 off. I very much doubt he would of missed that kick to touch like JD2 did.

Eddie Jones as shown that playing two fly half at 10 and 12 does work.

I'm sorry but calling for Hartley to be dropped is crazy. His leadership has been a major factor in the 15 game winning run and is exactly why EJ backed him again for this 6N.

He's delivering results and you'd have to be very short sighted to change a winning formula.

Look at Northampton since they dropped him as captain, the grass may look greener but it isn't in this case imo.

For all this 1 bad kick changed the result bit... from where he was a touch kick from Davies wasn't going to gain much ground. Englands line out was rock solid and the driving maul off it, was one of the things working really well for them. Based on the evidence of what went before, likelihood is england are back camped on the line, or possibly picking up a penalty for infringement at the maul... with 3/4 minutes left.

Ifs and ands, but there's a good chance they still win.

Still think Wales were the better side, but you don't always get what you deserve.

I thought this game highlighted our back line limitations, especially if we attempt to challenge for the number 1 ranking.

Where are the improvements to come from?

emontagu wrote:I'm sorry but calling for Hartley to be dropped is crazy. His leadership has been a major factor in the 15 game winning run and is exactly why EJ backed him again for this 6N.

He's delivering results and you'd have to be very short sighted to change a winning formula.

Look at Northampton since they dropped him as captain, the grass may look greener but it isn't in this case imo.

Partly true but when he's being subbed at the 45 minute mark consistently it could be argued that Owen Farrell is the captain when it really matters in the final quarter. Hartley is rock solid at the set piece, playing Wales in Wales and not losing a single scrum or lineout is quite an achievement but it does feel like Jones is easing him out the side.

Incidentally, great pass from Farrell for the try, perfectly timed to hold the defence, daly didn't need to break stride... he's made the transition from everyone's favourite whipping boy to probably first name on the team sheet.

Gooseberry wrote:Can I just check where the Sam Davies bandwagon is off the back of Biggars performance?

England can't keep riding their luck like this. They were outplayed for the majority of that game ...only picking up 3 points in about 50 minutes. Arguably outplayed by France too.
The Irish really must fancy a solid crack at breaking what is a pretty incredible run of wins.

The injuries to the forwards and some questionable form in the backs leaves them a weaker side than last year.  It just takes someone to get their game together.  

Great second half discipline from England , Daleys raw pace, and a piece of terrible decision making cost Wales what could have been quite a hefty victory.

I thought Biggar played one his best games in a long time yesterday. The competition for the ten shirt is alive and well.

It would be great to see what young Owen Williams can add to the mix too.

Maybe now Wales have, sadly, lost their chance at a Grandslam maybe the selection can be opened up for progress and the future.

The Six Nations this year is really starting to look like a very close run thing. Jus because Wales lost to England, doesn't mean they can't win the tournament. If France beats Scotland, then 5 teams are still very much in it. If Scotland beats France, then 4 teams, plus France could still beat almost anyone else. So this will (hopefully) go down to the wire. Except for Italy, no one is getting put away. Maybe, just maybe, Rugby in the Home Nations is really ramping up. Is great to see.

maestegmafia wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Can I just check where the Sam Davies bandwagon is off the back of Biggars performance?

England can't keep riding their luck like this. They were outplayed for the majority of that game ...only picking up 3 points in about 50 minutes. Arguably outplayed by France too.
The Irish really must fancy a solid crack at breaking what is a pretty incredible run of wins.

The injuries to the forwards and some questionable form in the backs leaves them a weaker side than last year.  It just takes someone to get their game together.  

Great second half discipline from England , Daleys raw pace, and a piece of terrible decision making cost Wales what could have been quite a hefty victory.

I thought Biggar played one his best games in a long time yesterday. The competition for the ten shirt is alive and well.

It would be great to see what young Owen Williams can add to the mix too.

Maybe now Wales have, sadly, lost their chance at a Grandslam maybe the selection can be opened up for progress and the future.

Yes can agree with a lot of that Maes and Gooseberry, we (Ospreys) have tried the Sam and Dan axis a couple of times in games this season it would be good to see it tried properly for a couple of whole games.

doctor_grey wrote:The Six Nations this year is really starting to look like a very close run thing.  Jus because Wales lost to England, doesn't mean they can't win the tournament.  If France beats Scotland, then 5 teams are still very much in it.  If Scotland beats France, then 4 teams, plus France could still beat almost anyone else.  So this will (hopefully) go down to the wire.  Except for Italy, no one is getting put away.  Maybe, just maybe, Rugby in the Home Nations is really ramping up.  Is great to see.

England have to go to Dublin and face the Ireland team that we thought we were going to see. That could be a cracking match as a finale

Incredibly frustrating result, but there we go. Fantastic intensity even for a Test match. Still bewildered that we didn't get over the line. I think we could play that game ten times over and we wouldn't defend as well as we did, Ireland 2015 comes to mind but I think this was better.

The last missing ingredient for Wales was turning pressure, and momentum, and even dominance at times, into points. I felt this was where Garces benefited England, as Wales were actively squeaky clean when defending (Youngs' try) whereas England- though far from being dirty- were more willing to disrupt and risk penalties (Launchbury, Hartley killing it in the red zone), particulary early in the game. Garces was unbelievably laissez-faire yesterday, I'm sure there were plenty of potential penalties English fans picked out, as there were certainly lots that could have been given to Wales.

That said, I'd rather a ref let the game run than be overly quick to reach for the whistle. Case in point: Dan Cole goes down to his knee before the ball even comes into the scrum, and doesn't get off it until the ball is out. You could blow for a penalty, and 3 points to Wales, yet Webb breaks and feeds Liam Williams for the try. Fans and players alike want the game to run, so I have no issue with the approach, but in terms of turning pressure into points, his refereeing style didn't suit Wales yesterday (I do think England are lucky with the penalty count considering their attitude to the breakdown and pressure they were under at times, conceding only 6 penalties).

The onus then is on Wales to adapt, and either look for drop goal opportunities, or- as they did- maintain pressure to the point where you look like scoring a try. Unfortunately, England attacked for relatively little time and came away with 8 points in the first half, Wales hammered away and only just got the reward right at the end of the half. In short: it's a problem of execution for Wales.

The second problem was clearly errors and mistakes- completely unforced- that halted momentum. Two lineouts near the England 22m line were key: one, when the props and Faletau came on, English maul, Wales concede the penalty (going in at the side?). Relief of pressure right when England were looking like breaking. The second was Baldwin's horror throw on our own ball. That's where I feel the game was lost, rather than solely the kick and terrible chase defence at the end, our inability in the second half to maintain the pressure successfully enough times to get a second and third try. They should never have been only 2 points clear going into the last ten minutes. Only scoring 3 points in the second half isn't good enough, and is the reason Wales lost. As I said, they couldn't feasibly have defended better if you play that game again, Cuthbert and Jon Davies's mistakes included. We're improving our attack, but still, the momentum shift in those last ten minutes had something ominous to it, as is expected of England's bench and physical strength, and I do feel- again- it's that Welsh psyche that makes us bad at killing off games that is the missing ingredient in what is clearly an unbelievably talented team of players.

Fair play to England, and whilst I don't think it's bitter to say that was as much a game that Wales lost as England won, I'm very disappointed by the result. England must have room for improvement, albeit I don't think massively so, but coming through a Test like that today- has there been a bigger test of the team since Eddie Jones too over?- puts them in good stead for the Grand Slam. All eyes look to Dublin now, with a few crackers including Scotland in between, but what a game that should be on the last weekend.

doctor_grey wrote:The Six Nations this year is really starting to look like a very close run thing.  Jus because Wales lost to England, doesn't mean they can't win the tournament.  If France beats Scotland, then 5 teams are still very much in it.  If Scotland beats France, then 4 teams, plus France could still beat almost anyone else.  So this will (hopefully) go down to the wire.  Except for Italy, no one is getting put away.  Maybe, just maybe, Rugby in the Home Nations is really ramping up.  Is great to see.

Excellent post Doc, the only thing for me is whether Howley and Co don't learn from this game, don't select out of form players (Cuthbert) and don't sub players who are having good games (Moriarty, Owens, and Williams) possibly Webb as well.

I also have to say I feel vindicated by almost everything I said pre-match:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What do you think of the England team? Particularly Jonathan Joseph's defense?

miaow wrote:In terms of how we attack him, I'd say you test his positioning and relative lack of size. [...] The most likely headway we may get with Jospeh, however, is by bringing North and Liam Williams back into him on a semi-blind or 'cute' angle: test his positioning relative to Farrell and his winger, test his shoulders, particularly on the inside.

Quite literally Liam Williams's try. Give me a job, Howley?

miaow wrote:Quietly confident that Tipuric and in particular Warburton are breakdown specialists who can counter an area where England just bulldozed Wales last year. It's important to counter their brutality with technical ability. That said, the physical threat they pose with ball in hand is always going to be a worry [...] It'll be a big ask for Wales. Mental strength will be the difference between winning and losing.

I feel all of the above occurred yesterday, and it was Welsh errors and lack of composure that stopped them scoring enough points, and finally allowing England to score a relatively easy try, that led to Wales losing.

That try wasn't poor defence from Joseph so no vindication for you.

miaow wrote:I also have to say I feel vindicated by almost everything I said pre-match:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What do you think of the England team? Particularly Jonathan Joseph's defense?

miaow wrote:In terms of how we attack him, I'd say you test his positioning and relative lack of size. [...] The most likely headway we may get with Jospeh, however, is by bringing North and Liam Williams back into him on a semi-blind or 'cute' angle: test his positioning relative to Farrell and his winger, test his shoulders, particularly on the inside.

Quite literally Liam Williams's try. Give me a job, Howley?

miaow wrote:Quietly confident that Tipuric and in particular Warburton are breakdown specialists who can counter an area where England just bulldozed Wales last year. It's important to counter their brutality with technical ability. That said, the physical threat they pose with ball in hand is always going to be a worry [...] It'll be a big ask for Wales. Mental strength will be the difference between winning and losing.

I feel all of the above occurred yesterday, and it was Welsh errors and lack of composure that stopped them scoring enough points, and finally allowing England to score a relatively easy try, that led to Wales losing.

Very easy to use a small sample to back up anything if you try hard enough, not entirely sure the try was anything to do Joseph, more the dummy runner taking Farrell out the game which was borderline in my opinion.

It's also very easy to suggest you lost the game rather than England won it but it's not the case.

I also have to question anyone still calling for Sam Davies to start after Biggar's performances yesterday. Incredible effort, I don't think he could have played any better. To my mind, along with Moriarty, Warburton, Webb, and Tipuric, the stand out Welsh players on the pitch.

Webb proved his class over Youngs in my opinion, something I've believed for a while. Jake Ball was excellent, did everything Launchbury did bar the lineout: took static ball and made a yard or two to give momentum when it was needed (something Wales struggle to do), and tackled everything that came his way. Massive contribution. Everything Scott Williams did was solid, particularly as it was mostly defensive in the first half. The strength and balance to make some of the tackles he did was excellent. Makes a mockery of Roberts, frankly.

Tipuric's defensive work- in the tackle, no less- was wonderful. As was Warburton's. I said Tipuric (and Liam Williams) were World Class prior to the game, and I'd stand by that. By the Lions Tour, I see no reason why Warburton can't reclaim that status too.

AWJ was very good without being standout like the above, and his captaincy is probably going to get a hammering for the decisions to go the corner, but I think both were right given the context of field position and the momentum and pressure Wales were exerting. We want to see Wales score tries and become an attacking team, and this is the way to do it. It's what the SH teams do. Keep going until the other team cracks. Don't let them off the hook by letting them kick the ball back into your 22m with only 3 points conceded. They weren't right or wrong decisions to me, they were judgement calls that made sense, but the execution was poor at scrum and lineout subsequently. Equally, if Halfpenny missed either kick, you'd be saying likewise: why didn't we go for the scrum and keep the pressure up!

Unfortunately, Cuthbert will get a lot of stick. He looked shaky early on, but fielding their restarts and kick offs seemed to help him a bit. His defensive positioning was atrocious, and he was in no small part responsible for poor positioning that led to England's first try, and as the ruck shield, he then didn't do his job and Youngs got over. Obviously he was also at fault for Daly's try: why he's trying to cover the inside I do not know. If Jon Davies/Jamie Roberts/whoever it was misses that tackle, the player is in, he wouldn't have made the ground up. Just cover your man. Sadly, his contributions in defence were atrocious: even his try saving tackle on Youngs (I think) down their left wing came about because he was woefully out of position for the initial line break a few seconds before.

Samson looks like a weakness, as mentioned. Gave away a couple of penalties, and didn't scrummage particularly well. Nicky Smith did well when he came on. Baldwin demonstrated why- when on form- Ken Owens is head and shoulders our best hooker, what a game from him, and his throwing's returned too. Needs to keep it up now.

It is now time to adapt outside those key players who started: Roberts didn't have the impact he should have had coming on. He didn't counter Te'o: his first pass was so telegraphed he got smashed by England when making it. You don't get that with Scott Williams. He's good enough that he doesn't give away what he's going to do well before he does it. I have no issue with the Moriarty change, as Faletau was going for the ball at every ruck, and offered something different to Moriarty in a defensive capacity: had Garces been more inclined, he may have one us a few penalties at the breakdown and been the difference between winning and losing. That said, it did feel 5-10 minutes too soon, likewise with the props.

The only weakness in the team, that I can see, is three quater depth. We need an alternative to Cuthert should North/Liam/Halfpenny be injured, and alternative #23 to Roberts. Time to blood Steff Evans. He's much more needed than Sam Davies is, in my mind. Davies will learn adequately alongside Biggar coming off the bench.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That try wasn't poor defence from Joseph so no vindication for you.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Very easy to use a small sample to back up anything if you try hard enough, not entirely sure the try was anything to do Joseph.

Haha, oh boys! I make a precition that literally occurs, and that's apparently meaningless? Come on. Enjoy England's win, but try finding your other eye whilst doing so. I know it's embarrassing to admit wrong etc., but that's the benefit of a forum, it's anonymous.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That try wasn't poor defence from Joseph so no vindication for you.

It was JJ's positioning that created a large gap for Liam to run through. However, name me one player who has never been out of position before

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That try wasn't poor defence from Joseph so no vindication for you.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Very easy to use a small sample to back up anything if you try hard enough, not entirely sure the try was anything to do Joseph.

Haha, oh boys! I make a precition that literally occurs, and that's apparently meaningless? Come on. Enjoy England's win, but try finding your other eye whilst doing so. I know it's embarrassing to admit wrong etc., but that's the benefit of a forum, it's anonymous.

To me it looks like Williams got in through Farrell's channel after he was blocked but each to their own. I'd say it's rather more embarrassing trying to base a whole opinion based on one game myself.

Loads have but that try was just down to a good move probably just on the side of legal.

When you're correct miaow I will but still waiting.

The tv guys thought it was Joseph... stepped up and too far from Farrell they said (guscott?)

Apparently it was a great training ground move. It was slick but with respect, it's hardly a new concept, winger loops round, bunch of dummy runners. For a guy to run in untouched, from first phase, someone has f*cked up... or been blocked by the decoys.

So should Farrell have left the decoys to the back row... was the inside cover not there? Or was it Joseph. Could a defensive coach/expert let us know... doesn't seem like much agreement on here about it!

miaow wrote:I also have to say I feel vindicated by almost everything I said pre-match:

Who cares?!

Griff wrote:

miaow wrote:I also have to say I feel vindicated by almost everything I said pre-match:

Who cares?!

Miaow. That's both an answer and a comment.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That try wasn't poor defence from Joseph so no vindication for you.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Very easy to use a small sample to back up anything if you try hard enough, not entirely sure the try was anything to do Joseph.

Haha, oh boys! I make a precition that literally occurs, and that's apparently meaningless? Come on. Enjoy England's win, but try finding your other eye whilst doing so. I know it's embarrassing to admit wrong etc., but that's the benefit of a forum, it's anonymous.

To me it looks like Williams got in through Farrell's channel after he was blocked but each to their own. I'd say it's rather more embarrassing trying to base a whole opinion based on one game myself.

I say his defence isn't suited to Gatland's tactics for the Lions. I said he could be a defensive liability. You accuse me of not watching him. I say where I think his defence is weak. His defensive positioning- an area I had said isn't top drawer, something the 13 needs to be excellent at in Gatland's teams- is exploited in a Test match. That concession was very nearly the difference between winning and losing. Test match Rugby is all about the marginal gains, and offsetting weakness as much as possible. NZ will exploit that weakness better than any other team on the planet.

How on Earth am I the one who's embarrassing when you provide nothing other than 'no, you're wrong, I said so?'. I'm not responding to you anymore. Bitter, bitter human.

Yeah based on yesterday jd is definitely the choice for the lions! But that's for another thread. Just enjoy the game and try to get over the result.

Griff wrote:

miaow wrote:I also have to say I feel vindicated by almost everything I said pre-match:

Who cares?!

Haha, wise up and listen to your Grand Master, Griff.

This board's all about opinions. Not all opinions are equal. If you say something and get it right, it tends to suggest you know what you're talking about. Lots of people here don't seem to demonstrate that. I have. The criticism seems to be length of post rather than any of the content.

Who cares?

You by the sound of it, unhappy that you can't compartmentalise me as a WUM.

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:The Six Nations this year is really starting to look like a very close run thing.  Jus because Wales lost to England, doesn't mean they can't win the tournament.  If France beats Scotland, then 5 teams are still very much in it.  If Scotland beats France, then 4 teams, plus France could still beat almost anyone else.  So this will (hopefully) go down to the wire.  Except for Italy, no one is getting put away.  Maybe, just maybe, Rugby in the Home Nations is really ramping up.  Is great to see.

England have to go to Dublin and face the Ireland team that we thought we were going to see. That could be a cracking match as a finale

Ireland must be big favourites after yesterday with their performance and England not quite there with the changes and some form concerns.

Please don't respond to me any more Miaow, you'll be saving me the effort of reading your garbage, there's a foe button, use it. All you've done is use a single instance that wasn't a positional error but rather just a clever set play by the Welsh to back up a point that had no justification to it previously. One single instance doesn't make him a weak defender, he was superb in Australia and was even better in the Autumn.

He's just taking the result badly hammer.

miaow wrote:

Fair play to England, and whilst I don't think it's bitter to say that was as much a game that Wales lost as England won, I'm very disappointed by the result. England must have room for improvement, albeit I don't think massively so, but coming through a Test like that today- has there been a bigger test of the team since Eddie Jones too over?- puts them in good stead for the Grand Slam. All eyes look to Dublin now, with a few crackers including Scotland in between, but what a game that should be on the last weekend.

agree with most of that but disagree that eng can't improve a lot. simply bringing the first choice backrow back helps massively and there is still much young talent coming through.

miaow wrote:

Griff wrote:

miaow wrote:I also have to say I feel vindicated by almost everything I said pre-match:

Who cares?!

Haha, wise up and listen to your Grand Master, Griff.

This board's all about opinions. Not all opinions are equal. If you say something and get it right, it tends to suggest you know what you're talking about. Lots of people here don't seem to demonstrate that. I have. The criticism seems to be length of post rather than any of the content.

Who cares?

You by the sound of it, unhappy that you can't compartmentalise me as a WUM.

It was more a comment on your need for self congratulation. Very odd. And perhaps a bit narcissistic.

trebellbobaggins wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:The Six Nations this year is really starting to look like a very close run thing.  Jus because Wales lost to England, doesn't mean they can't win the tournament.  If France beats Scotland, then 5 teams are still very much in it.  If Scotland beats France, then 4 teams, plus France could still beat almost anyone else.  So this will (hopefully) go down to the wire.  Except for Italy, no one is getting put away.  Maybe, just maybe, Rugby in the Home Nations is really ramping up.  Is great to see.

England have to go to Dublin and face the Ireland team that we thought we were going to see. That could be a cracking match as a finale

Ireland must be big favourites after yesterday with their performance and England not quite there with the changes and some form concerns.

???

Ireland haven't played a real game yet.  Against Scotland, they thought they could play half a game and still win (arrogance to be sure to be sure) but Scotland shoved that arrogance up our asses, to be perfectly and blissfully blunt about it

Italy were just walked over and provided no real test of a renewal of Irish form other than it proved that Ireland know that pushing on and hard from the very beginning is the only method you can use in this new points based 6N.

France will be the first game to really mark what kind of threat, if any, that Ireland might be to Wales or England.

well it might be that or it might be Ireland clicked and are just brilliant when they do. it's possible. it's a cracking team.

but yes Italy did just seem to roll over. sad to see them seemingly going nowhere again.

Griff wrote:
It was more a comment on your need for self congratulation. Very odd. And perhaps a bit narcissistic.

A bit rough there, Griff. Everyone likes to feel they got an opinion worth listening to, miaow ain't no different.

It's different of course when you are tasked with the gift of being forever always right though - that's a burden only some of us have to live with. I bear mine in constant good grace

Am I to understand that JJ, who has played brilliantly in both attack and defence for some time, may or may not have made a defensive mistake so he is now deemed a defensive liability?