6N 2017: England vs Scotland

captain carrantuohil wrote:Pierre Spies may have got 50 + caps but in South Africa he polarises opinions like few other players.

A lot of people wouldn't have had him anywhere near the Boks after his first few appearances; such was the disdain that Spies has gained, and kept, a nickname that most in these islands might associate with Al Kellock of blessed recent memory - The Ruck Inspector. Lazy, not keen to get his hands dirty, doesn't punch his weight, etc. etc. That's the South African view that I've heard a lot and there's no doubt that he has appeared a spectacular waste of talent at times.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:Pierre Spies may have got 50 + caps but in South Africa he polarises opinions like few other players.

A lot of people wouldn't have had him anywhere near the Boks after his first few appearances; such was the disdain that Spies has gained, and kept, a nickname that most in these islands might associate with Al Kellock of blessed recent memory - The Ruck Inspector. Lazy, not keen to get his hands dirty, doesn't punch his weight, etc. etc. That's the South African view that I've heard a lot and there's no doubt that he has appeared a spectacular waste of talent at times.

I think he got selected that much because he looked the part rather than actually being a good rugby player.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne and Richie "He Plays Where He Wants" Vernon not a complete disaster for 6th and 7th choices.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What about Jake White? White once said that not one Ireland player would get in the current SA squad at the time. The next day Ireland racked up a record score against SA. Maybe he isnt the greatest judge of players.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne not a complete disaster for a 6th choice.

dummy_half wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne not a complete disaster for a 6th choice.

To be fair, the chances of your centres performing well were not enhanced by having Dan Parks at 10

dummy_half wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne not a complete disaster for a 6th choice.

To be fair, the chances of your centres performing well were not enhanced by having Dan Parks at 10

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

George Carlin wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Ruck Inspector, eh?  That's a pretty nasty nickname.  Never heard that applied to him before, but people have mentioned he always looks very clean.

That's been his nickname for his entire career Doc.

Just don't get Edinburgh fans started on him.

They find it very hard to accept that he captained his side to Pro12 victory whilst keeping his knees absolutely spotless and his mum happy that the weekly wash didn't ever threaten to break her machine.

LondonTiger wrote:Billy V set to play for Sarries this weekend: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39141044

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Billy V set to play for Sarries this weekend: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39141044

If he gets through the Newcastle game unscathed, think Jones will call him up?

fa0019 wrote:I think a lot of the Scottish players who weren't part of the amateur/pro cross over and were the first guinea pigs of the 00s SRU pro era were harshly treated by the SRU. They simply weren't ready for professionalism.

It was partly funding but also partly the SRU being a bunch of upper class windbags.

They lost out by getting in stop gaps like Glen Metcalfe, Brendan Laney, the Leslie brothers, Budge Poutney (one of the worst examples ever) etc... I recall he quit because of an invoice he received over a tie.

Sure it helped in the short term but it didn't half hurt development.

Are today's crop any better skill wise? I'd say taking out Hogg I'd say no. But the difference in approach has been massive.

BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

Have to agree with this. Will EJ though?

jimbopip wrote:Yet again, oh Festering One, you miss the point. I'll try to explain it to you in the form of a parable...
Eddie Butler tells the story of being in the players' bar after a Wales game with a few grizzled forwards who are discussing the abilities, or otherwise of their current scrum-half; one Rupert St John Moon.
"He doesn't really have a pass on him, does he?" said the first.
"No, not that I've seen.And he can't tackle his way out of a wet paper bag." said the next.
"He's got no pace, he never makes a clean break." opined the third.
"You're right" said the fourth, "but he is a brilliant scrum half"
"oh yes" they all agreed "he really makes a huge difference to the side".

This anecdote could easily be applied to Frodo, as despite being slower than a remedial class in Basildon and suffering severe agoraphobia whenever presented with space around a ruck he is a hugely important, and influential, member of the Scottish team. You could do a statistical analysis of Grant Gilchrist's Pro 12 career and show that in terms of: carries, tackle completion, passes and yards made he is the best second row in the Northern hemisphere but I, and all of the Warrior Nation, would select Big Al every time. There are players who improve a team every time they take to the field, even though it's difficult to identify exactly what they do; I read an article by the people who came up with the Moneyball theory and pointed out that there were journeymen in team sports who when they play the team are more successful and when they sit out the team underperform even though those individuals do not score many points/create assists/ make big tackles. Conversely, very often "star" players do all the headline grabbing things but have very little effect on the team's overall success rate, and their absence leads to a minimal drop in overall performance.
In a nutshell, I've learned to value and appreciate Frodo because he makes a positive difference to the Scotland team (way beyond his individual skill set) so you need to try to get your head out of your nether regions and recognise what Big Al actually contributed to Glasgow.

beshocked wrote:jimbopip though saying that do you think Laidlaw was missed vs Wales?

I don't think Laidlaw would have been able to handle the bludgeoning of France either even if fit.

On the other hand I think fans look too much at "leadership" as if it's some magical term that others can't do.

You miss players more if the replacements aren't up to the required level.

Laidlaw's value to the team has been in my opinion to be the primary goal kicker.

Goal kickers are valuable but if someone can do the job just as well......

Halfpenny has been picked for Wales primary for Wales due to his goal kicking and that's where most of his value lies.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Beshocked, best stay out of this one mate. This exchange was purely an attempt by FES to enrage Jimbo... it worked quite hilariously

jimbopip wrote:Bench?

jimbopip wrote:Bench?

jimbopip wrote:Beshocked, it's an intangible thing. If the opposition know that any infringements at the breakdown even on the halfway line will mean three points and scoreboard pressure then that must affect their game and also give Wales increased confidence. Therefore Halfpenny's inclusion does improve Wales' chances of winning, irrespective of his personal form.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Beshocked, it's an intangible thing. If the opposition know that any infringements at the breakdown even on the halfway line will mean three points and scoreboard pressure then that must affect their game and also give Wales increased confidence. Therefore Halfpenny's inclusion does improve Wales' chances of winning, irrespective of his personal form.

That would make sense if they didn't have Dan Biggar in the side too who is every bit as good as a place kicker.

BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

dummy_half wrote:

BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

I certainly think the Scotland game is too soon - Billy's been out for quite some time (12 or 13 weeks), so is likely to need a bit of time to get back up to speed. Two games back for Sarries and if he comes though those unscathed we can consider him for the game in Dublin, but with the option of being on the bench or to plan for him to give his all for 50 minutes.

Ideally, I wouldn't be looking to rush him back, but given the mediocrity that Hughes has delivered so far and the likely importance of the game in Dublin, it's something to consider.

B91212 wrote:Not sure that would have been the case with either of them in the not too distant past.

dummy_half wrote:

BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

I certainly think the Scotland game is too soon - Billy's been out for quite some time (12 or 13 weeks), so is likely to need a bit of time to get back up to speed. Two games back for Sarries and if he comes though those unscathed we can consider him for the game in Dublin, but with the option of being on the bench or to plan for him to give his all for 50 minutes.

Ideally, I wouldn't be looking to rush him back, but given the mediocrity that Hughes has delivered so far and the likely importance of the game in Dublin, it's something to consider.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well he's expected to play against us up here at KP on Sunday. We'll get an idea of his fitness and power.

Scottrf wrote:

B91212 wrote:Not sure that would have been the case with either of them in the not too distant past.

Billy said himself that he had a turnaround in attitude thanks to Eddie. He told him that he could be the best 8 in the world, and before that he was lazy and relied on his talent.

Scottrf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well he's expected to play against us up here at KP on Sunday. We'll get an idea of his fitness and power.

Hopefully doesn't ruin his knees on your fake pitch.

jimbopip wrote:I wonder if Scotland will do a Reverse Vunipola?
Al Dickinson has been out injured for some time but is named in the starting XV for the Luvvies tomorrow. If he comes through that unscathed (doubtful, given he will be carrying the immobile ballast that is  Grant Gilchrist for most of the game) what's the chances that he will feature at Twickers?

B91212 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well he's expected to play against us up here at KP on Sunday. We'll get an idea of his fitness and power.

Hopefully doesn't ruin his knees on your fake pitch.

It's not like it's a new thing for him!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think a lot of the Scottish players who weren't part of the amateur/pro cross over and were the first guinea pigs of the 00s SRU pro era were harshly treated by the SRU. They simply weren't ready for professionalism.

It was partly funding but also partly the SRU being a bunch of upper class windbags.

They lost out by getting in stop gaps like Glen Metcalfe, Brendan Laney, the Leslie brothers, Budge Poutney (one of the worst examples ever) etc... I recall he quit because of an invoice he received over a tie.

Sure it helped in the short term but it didn't half hurt development.

Are today's crop any better skill wise? I'd say taking out Hogg I'd say no. But the difference in approach has been massive.

Laney maybe but Glen Metcalfe, the Leslie brothers and Pountney were very good players for Scotland.

Pountey quit due to the lack of professionalism and support for the players by the SRU.  What kicked it all off was that there was no water available for their training session so the players had to go and fill water bottles themselves. Sounds like a small thing but was really quite amateurish in what was mean to be a professional organisation.