British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

Club rugby isn't International rugby. What shines at club level (even the highest reaches) can pretty much come to a shuddering halt at the highest levels in International.

majesticimperialman wrote:Watching the Sarries v Glasgow game. Stuart Barnes seems tp think that Chris Ashton might be on the Lions tour.

Never thought about him being on the  Lions tour.

Yeah with Cuthbert on the other wing

Any players forced their way in this weekend or last? Telegraph running an article saying Sinckler has already been told he is in as a bolter! Probably too late for Kruis, but at least he would be fresh and has some more games to get some form? Speculation will soon be over, but some articles praising Teo against Bath. Hartley played well against George so will that save his bacon? Any player updates from the Pro 12?

Scarlets struggled to beat the Dragons, but it wont have affected the Welsh contingent's chances. Jonathan Davies continues to play pretty insipidly but will no doubt be in the squad. Watching Clermont play with either of their two outside centres , who have replaced Davies, and can pass the ball well off both hands ( Remy Lamerat and young Damian Penaud ) highlights how leaden JD's passing actually is!
Ospreys were thrashed by Cardiff, but again wont have dented any players who Gatland has inked into his squad. Glasgow spanked Zebre, but that is no surprise there.
A weakened Munster were able to sneak  past Ulster, with Peter O'Mahony again a dominant force at the lineout. Given so few of the back row options are good at the line-out, he certainly should have enhanced his chances. In contrast Henderson had a fairly quiet game, a mark in the debit column for sure.

I actually think Kruis will go as his form over the last two seasons has been immense,  in the line-out and in open play. He and Itoje have been the form club lock pairing in Europe, and probably the best test pairing in Europe, and i would consider them as a test option, particularly with their club hooker along for the ride.  He has now had a good time for rest and rehab and will be firing on all cylinders. He will enjoy a great preparation for the tour with champions cup semi, and perhaps the final,  and the Aviva run in to come.

majesticimperialman wrote:Watching the Sarries v Glasgow game. Stuart Barnes seems tp think that Chris Ashton might be on the Lions tour.

Never thought about him being on the  Lions tour.

sad how you clutch at every straw

Jonathan Joseph set to miss out with Ben Te'o and Jonathan Davies set to be included, if that's true then any hopes the Lions had of winning are gone.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Jonathan Joseph set to miss out with Ben Te'o and Jonathan Davies set to be included, if that's true then any hopes the Lions had of winning are gone.

where from?

It's on the BBC website, can't find it anywhere else so hoping it's wrong.

By the sounds of it Launchberry and Joseph to miss out.

Seem like this selection could be more of reputation than on "FORM"

Shame about that.

From the sounds of it, locks will be; Wyn Jones, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Henderson.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39624348

The Telegraph backs a lot of this up.

- Launchbury and Joseph out.
- Henderson said to be a cert for one of the second row spots.
- Ben Te'o and Kyle Sinckler surprise inclusions.

I'm interested to see the final second row lineup as its probably the most competitive part of the squad.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:From the sounds of it, locks will be; Wyn Jones, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Henderson.

Yep, its look like this. Launchbury not getting a spot is absolute madness.

Iain Morrison in the Scotsman with a more balanced view than most:

1. Jack McGrath, Mako Vunipola, Cian Healy

Ally Dickinson would have had a shout as the third cab off the rank had he been fit​,​ but he isn’t so he doesn’t. The ​No.1 shirt is a strong one for the Lions and any of the above could make it into the ​Test XV​,​ with McGrath the favourite as the plane takes off. Wales’ Rob Evans could edge Cian Healy but on balance we think not.

Unlucky: Joe Marler and Rob Evans

2. Jamie George, Ken Owens, Rory Best

Fraser Brown has an outside chance but the Glasgow Warriors hooker lost his cool in the cauldron of Twickenham with a calamitous yellow card that set the tone for a torrid afternoon for the visitors, and these things tend to stick in a coach’s mind. Owens was the best performer in the Six Nations when Rory Best was below par but the Irishman sneaks in ahead of the ticking time bomb that is Dylan Hartley, if only to captain the Wednesday side.

Unlucky: Hartley and Brown.

3. Tadhg Furlong, Dan Cole, John Ryan

What we said about Dickinson also applies to WP Nel in the tighthead jersey. Less strength here than loosehead as Cole is running on reputation. In contrast John Ryan is a nuts-and-bolts tighthead who is Mr Reliable for Munster and Ireland and more experienced than England reserve Kyle Sinckler.

Unluckly: Sinckler

4. Alun Wyn Jones, Maro Itoje

A great blend of experience and youth with both being stand​-out performers at the highest level for their respective countries.

5. Joe Launchbury, Iain Henderson, George Kruis

The big question here is whether Kruis has left it too late to make the cut? The English lock makes his return for Saracens against Saints this afternoon and, while everyone else is on their knees at the end of the season, Kruis will be peaking nicely for the first Test. Launchbury and Henderson are two more athletic choices and the Irishman is versatile with it. The Lions head coach must decide whether to gamble with Kruis, opt for Courtney Lawes or go with what he knows and take big Richie Gray again.

Unlucky: Courtney Lawes and Richie and Jonny Gray

6. Peter O’Mahony, CJ Stander, Sean O’Brien

A trio of Irish bad boys who are there to bully the bullies…although Stander is nursing a shoulder.

7. Sam Warburton and Justin Tipuric

Warburton is widely touted to lead the Lions once again, a decent player and a decent bloke, but he doesn’t appear to have the inspirational qualities required for this squad to go and grab this series by the throat. The Kiwis almost always field specialist sevens so Gatland will be cognisant of doing likewise. He will automatically look to Wales’ twin Test players but Scotland’s Hamish Watson plays with a dynamism and aggression that neither Welshman can match. Watson could steal a few headlines but only if he is first selected and that appears unlikely.

Unlucky: Hamish Watson

8. Billy Vunipola, Taulupe Faletau

Jamie Heaslip has just had an operation on his back which puts his participation in doubt but we would have opted for Faletau in any event despite him playing second fiddle to Ross Moriarty in the Six Nations. Who would you want coming off the bench to win the third and decisive Test against the Blacks? Taulupe or Ross or Jamie? Yup…me too.

9. Conor Murray, Rhys Webb, Ben Youngs The first two are almost certain to travel because they offer a subtle contrast in styles while both do the basics very well. I would take Scotland’s Ali Price, who is in the form of his life and will make life mighty uncomfortable for Greig Laidlaw next season. Again it comes down to style and ambition. If you want to win matches then Price is a game breaker. Ben Youngs is more experienced and Gatland will go with what he knows.

Unlucky: Ali Price

10. Johnny Sexton, Owen Farrell, Finn Russell

George Ford is the missing man, at least in this squad, but he is a defensive liability and a little less impressive when his forwards are unable to bully the opposition as mercilessly as England’s usually do. Russell gets the nod ahead of Dan Bigger because the Welsh midfield is toothless with Biggar at ten. Russell plays flat to the gain line and the range and vision of his distribution is equal to Sexton’s, which is saying something.

Unlucky: Ford and Biggar

11. Anthony Watson and George North

Scotland could have two wingers who could go on tour but there is little prospect of both Tommy Seymour and Sean Maitland making the cut and there’s a possibility that neither will travel. Both Scots are better at defusing aerial bombs than George North, who looks a shadow of his old self – as you would too if your bell had been rung as often as the winger’s. But remember who picks the team…so North is likely to go which means that the twin Scots are fighting an uphill battle.

Unlucky: Maitland, Seymour and Ireland’s Simon Zebo may all miss out

12. Robbie Henshaw and Duncan Taylor Henshaw goes by popular acclaim and he will be favourite to start at ​12 for the Test if Owen Farrell is selected at fly​-​half. Inside centre is not a position of strength for the Lions, although Taylor has a live chance of travelling. He is just back from injury, fresh, taking part in European and domestic play​-​offs with the best club in the country and he covers every spot from 12 through 15.

13. Jonathan Joseph, Jon Davies

Jonathan Joseph is not as good as Scotland made him look at Twickenham – Dublin underlined that much – but he has the raw pace to ask some questions and dig himself out of any defensive holes he may fall into. Jon Davies has little current form on his side but he does have pedigree and experience and it can’t hurt his cause that his national coach picks the squad. He and Taylor add some beef to a welterweight midfield.

Unlucky: England’s Ben Te’o

14. Liam Williams, Elliot Daly Elliot Daly is versatile and elusive, the Jordi Barrett of the Lions squad, comfortable at 13, 14 or 15, a really talented footballer. Liam Williams is slight, quick, secure in the air with vision and intelligence; equally happy at wing/full-back.

15. Stuart Hogg, Leigh Halfpenny A tricky one, full-back, because Ireland’s Rob Kearney is injured and out of the reckoning. We have opted for Leigh Halfpenny over Mike Brown because that gives the squad the best attacking 15 – Hogg – and the best defensive full-back in Europe. Halfpenny’s goal kicking will come in handy while Watson and Williams both back up at 15.

Unlucky: Mike Brown

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:From the sounds of it, locks will be; Wyn Jones, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Henderson.

Yep, its look like this.  Launchbury not getting a spot is absolute madness.

Yep - I wouldn't take Kruis or Lawes over Launchbury.

No J Gray at lock seems nuts to me. I wouldn't take Lawes or AWJ for sure and given recent injury think taking Kruis is bold. AWJ is currently seriously injured, has been for weeks, doesn't look to be fit for weeks, didn't have his best 6N, is in a position with other top quality players, didn't impress as Captain and seems unlikely to have partnered any of the other likely tight 5 players on tour. Why bring him?


As for JD2...

This can't be true surely.

Reading the media reports it's sounding a bit like the centres will be Farrell, Davies, Henshaw and Te'o. All I can say is I hope they're wrong.

Hansen won't be sure what to be more excited by; the opportunity for SBW and Fekitoa to easily match their physicality but with much more pace, or for Lienert-Brown to run rings around a group of centres seriously lacking in pace at 13.

Jonny Gray would be my choice for captain in a squad lacking standout leaders who deserve to start. He's uncompromising, does all his jobs as a lock very well and would lead by example.

If Kruis, AWJ and Lawes are the three line-out locks then he should end up on tour pretty quickly anyway as an injury replacement.

Te'o over JJ would be a huge mistake IMO - you need pace against the All Blacks and as has been said you're not going to run through that ABs midfield. Plus Te'o is still an international novice!

Also reports of Donnacha Ryan over Launchbury - Ryan gives his all and is a very physical 4 but you need a bit of x-factor for a Lions tour and Launchbury gives you that. If we were touring SA then yes to Ryan but not NZ!

I hear Lydiate is the starting 6 too

RDW_Scotland wrote:Te'o over JJ would be a huge mistake IMO - you need pace against the All Blacks and as has been said you're not going to run through that ABs midfield. Plus Te'o is still an international novice!

Also reports of Donnacha Ryan over Launchbury - Ryan gives his all and is a very physical 4 but you need a bit of x-factor for a Lions tour and Launchbury gives you that. If we were touring SA then yes to Ryan but not NZ!

It's going to end up being the Gatland squad most were fearing when he was announced as coach.

king_carlos wrote:Jonny Gray would be my choice for captain in a squad lacking standout leaders who deserve to start. He's uncompromising, does all his jobs as a lock very well and would lead by example.

If Kruis, AWJ and Lawes are the three line-out locks then he should end up on tour pretty quickly anyway as an injury replacement.

This at least is true. Though sad

I'll be surprised if Luanchbury misses out, JJ less so though midfield is hardly over run with quality options. Maybe Roberts will go!

I think having the likes of Launchbury and JJ to call on for the inevitable injuries is not a bad place to be. I expect we will lose 10% of the squad to injury before the first test and as much as 20% of the original squad by tour's end.

Gwlad wrote:I'll be surprised if Luanchbury misses out, JJ less so though midfield is hardly over run with quality options. Maybe Roberts will go!

I think having the likes of Launchbury and JJ to call on for the inevitable injuries is not a bad place to be. I expect we will lose 10% of the squad to injury before the first test and as much as 20% of the original squad by tour's end.

10%? 

I'd be very surprised if it's that low

Not surprised about Launchbury, simply because of the competition.

Teo does not shock me either (I named him in my squad on the other thread last week). I always thought Gatland would employ a power game. Joseph surprises me though. That tells me Teo is travelling as an OC (with the other being) JD. I'd have taken Teo, but as an inside centre and I would have thought Gatland would still take Joseph to give him the option of something different. Unless of course he has gone for Ringrose, but that would surprise me for a different reason. Going by his 6N I just don't think he is quite ready.

To those saying if JD or Roberts are going, you can forget winning, did anyone really think that Gatland was going to play anything other than a power game? Ask yourself, why would he do that? Is he doing it to lose on purpose, or because he thinks its the right thing to do?

Lets get rid of a horrible piece of bullsh1t straight off the bat. "You need to score tries to beat New Zealand". It means nothing. How many tries? 4? What if it's a high scoring game? 6? Will that be enough? I'm guessing it doesn't matter if they are converted right, since tries are the name of the game. New Zealand, like every other team in the history of the game, will lose a game if the opposition scores more points than they do.

Consider this. Gatland is charged with facing a team that have systems in place and a familiarity nurtured over years. They play a fast free flowing game and they are the best in the world at executing it. The best in the world, I can't stress that enough. We've got people on here and in the media suggesting that Gatland should go toe to toe with that, oh and he's only got 8 weeks to do it, with a squad that has never played together before.

I think it's more that Roberts and JD2 haven't been particularly good at any power game for 3-4 years either...

10% of the original squad would be 3-4 players. I'd wager that many more than that will be ruled out of the first test by the time it comes round. We may not have seen 4 players completely ruled out of the tour due to injury by that point but there will be a decent number of walking wounded by then who can't be considered for Test 1.

The squad on the last two tours swelled to around 45 players for the bulk of the travelling due to guys being called up as cover, then staying on as cover for others once the player they were originally covering is fit. The sheer number of games is only one factor for the injury rate. Add in the hugely intense and competitive training sessions and constant travelling (always hinders player recovery), it's a recipe for breaking players with how much power is now involved in collisions.

Players who are only just returning to injury going on a tour as intense as the Lions is always the biggest worry. There have been multiple players who's careers have effectively been ended by injuries picked up on or worsened on the last couple of tours.

Clive Woodward's selection in the Mail is interesting to put it kindly. Stuart Hogg is the only Scottish player touring and he selects Davies as a 12. I do think with Clive though that there is a voice in his head telling him over and over again "you're a maverick Clive, do something nutty, it might work". I think he has been probably in the same spot in rugby terms for nigh on 25 years now, for the first half he was way ahead of everyone, now he's miles behind.

All these leaks are fairly certain which is unusual and unsettling, Jonny Gray for example was in the vast majority of post 6 Nations Lions tours and nowhere near now, Jonathan Joseph is the same. The squads that are appearing now seem devoid of ambition and picked for 2013, some of the players are very good players who just haven't had it for the last 12-24 months. I hope he picks the right squad not because of any perceived bias toward my country or against another but because I care about the Lions, and more than that I care about rugby in our part of the world. If Gatland selects the Wales squad of 2013 and a few others then we will lose and we will lose badly, it's been 24 years since the Lions have had a half decent crack at New Zealand. The selections so far seem almost like it's a squad picked for the Autumn internationals after 2013.

cascough wrote:Not surprised about Launchbury, simply because of the competition.

Teo does not shock me either (I named him in my squad on the other thread last week). I always thought Gatland would employ a power game. Joseph surprises me though. That tells me Teo is travelling as an OC (with the other being) JD. I'd have taken Teo, but as an inside centre and I would have thought Gatland would still take Joseph to give him the option of something different. Unless of course he has gone for Ringrose, but that would surprise me for a different reason. Going by his 6N I just don't think he is quite ready.

To those saying if JD or Roberts are going, you can forget winning, did anyone really think that Gatland was going to play anything other than a power game? Ask yourself, why would he do that? Is he doing it to lose on purpose, or because he thinks its the right thing to do?

Lets get rid of a horrible piece of bullsh1t straight off the bat. "You need to score tries to beat New Zealand". It means nothing. How many tries? 4? What if it's a high scoring game? 6? Will that be enough? I'm guessing it doesn't matter if they are converted right, since tries are the name of the game. New Zealand, like every other team in the history of the game, will lose a game if the opposition scores more points than they do.

Consider this. Gatland is charged with facing a team that have systems in place and a familiarity nurtured over years. They play a fast free flowing game and they are the best in the world at executing it. The best in the world, I can't stress that enough. We've got people on here and in the media suggesting that Gatland should go toe to toe with that, oh and he's only got 8 weeks to do it, with a squad that has never played together before.

Whilst I agree that the Lions do not need to score vast numbers of tries they do need to score some. How many are they likely to score with Roberts trundling the ball up ever so slowly into contact? He can't run (beyond the pace of a particularly slow prop), avoid contact, pass or kick.

They also need to stop the All Blacks scoring a hat load of tries. Roberts is a great tackler provided of course the All Blacks are obliging enough to run straight at him. If they are unsporting enough to avoid contact we are stuffed.

If he is picked it is beyond parody.

123456789 wrote:Clive Woodward's selection in the Mail is interesting to put it kindly. Stuart Hogg is the only Scottish player touring and he selects Davies as a 12. I do think with Clive though that there is a voice in his head telling him over and over again "you're a maverick Clive, do something nutty, it might work". I think he has been probably in the same spot in rugby terms for nigh on 25 years now, for the first half he was way ahead of everyone, now he's miles behind.

All these leaks are fairly certain which is unusual and unsettling, Jonny Gray for example was in the vast majority of post 6 Nations Lions tours and nowhere near now, Jonathan Joseph is the same. The squads that are appearing now seem devoid of ambition and picked for 2013, some of the players are very good players who just haven't had it for the last 12-24 months. I hope he picks the right squad not because of any perceived bias toward my country or against another but because I care about the Lions, and more than that I care about rugby in our part of the world. If Gatland selects the Wales squad of 2013 and a few others then we will lose and we will lose badly, it's been 24 years since the Lions have had a half decent crack at New Zealand. The selections so far seem almost like it's a squad picked for the Autumn internationals after 2013.

Don't be so negative. The squad is picked to do a job, not satisfy the populist clamour. He's obviously got a gameplan and he will pick a squad to execute it. I really don't understand the indignation that surrounds only Stuart Hogg making the tour. Why do they have a divine right to have more included? Because they were decent in 2 matches this 6N, after a catalogue of failure over recent years? And where they do have strong performers, the competition is fierce. It's no outrage.

Exiledinborders wrote:

cascough wrote:Not surprised about Launchbury, simply because of the competition.

Teo does not shock me either (I named him in my squad on the other thread last week). I always thought Gatland would employ a power game. Joseph surprises me though. That tells me Teo is travelling as an OC (with the other being) JD. I'd have taken Teo, but as an inside centre and I would have thought Gatland would still take Joseph to give him the option of something different. Unless of course he has gone for Ringrose, but that would surprise me for a different reason. Going by his 6N I just don't think he is quite ready.

To those saying if JD or Roberts are going, you can forget winning, did anyone really think that Gatland was going to play anything other than a power game? Ask yourself, why would he do that? Is he doing it to lose on purpose, or because he thinks its the right thing to do?

Lets get rid of a horrible piece of bullsh1t straight off the bat. "You need to score tries to beat New Zealand". It means nothing. How many tries? 4? What if it's a high scoring game? 6? Will that be enough? I'm guessing it doesn't matter if they are converted right, since tries are the name of the game. New Zealand, like every other team in the history of the game, will lose a game if the opposition scores more points than they do.

Consider this. Gatland is charged with facing a team that have systems in place and a familiarity nurtured over years. They play a fast free flowing game and they are the best in the world at executing it. The best in the world, I can't stress that enough. We've got people on here and in the media suggesting that Gatland should go toe to toe with that, oh and he's only got 8 weeks to do it, with a squad that has never played together before.

Whilst I agree that the Lions do not need to score vast numbers of tries they do need to score some. How many are they likely to score with Roberts trundling the ball up ever so slowly into contact? He can't run (beyond the pace of a particularly slow prop), avoid contact, pass or kick.

They also need to stop the All Blacks scoring a hat load of tries. Roberts is a great tackler provided of course the All Blacks are obliging enough to run straight at him. If they are unsporting enough to avoid contact we are stuffed.

If he is picked it is beyond parody.

More cliches. It's quite possible to beat any rugby team without scoring a try. Check the record books, it's been done, even to NZ. With that in mind it hardly seems worth pointing out that when used properly Roberts has been effective as recently as the Ireland game. I mean, I dunno how many tries you think the IC needs to score to beat New Zealand. It's a collective effort for me.

It is a collective effort. Leaving behind some of our best players is bizarre though. It may all be rumours and mis direction anyway.

"best"

Best for what? Best at what?

For the record, Joseph would have been amongst the first names on my teamsheet, let alone the squad. I just don't think it so ridiculous that Gatland has a gameplan and he's picking the squad he sees fit to best execute it.

I do, but that's because I have little faith in Gatland as a coach


I'll support the Lions and hope we do well, but I think this is going to be an abysmally embarrassing tour

I still have hopes that it's not going to be the same mistakes as last time! Ie let's not decide tactics without an eye on what players are available. Let's not choose players who aren't fit.

cascough wrote:

123456789 wrote:Clive Woodward's selection in the Mail is interesting to put it kindly. Stuart Hogg is the only Scottish player touring and he selects Davies as a 12. I do think with Clive though that there is a voice in his head telling him over and over again "you're a maverick Clive, do something nutty, it might work". I think he has been probably in the same spot in rugby terms for nigh on 25 years now, for the first half he was way ahead of everyone, now he's miles behind.

All these leaks are fairly certain which is unusual and unsettling, Jonny Gray for example was in the vast majority of post 6 Nations Lions tours and nowhere near now, Jonathan Joseph is the same. The squads that are appearing now seem devoid of ambition and picked for 2013, some of the players are very good players who just haven't had it for the last 12-24 months. I hope he picks the right squad not because of any perceived bias toward my country or against another but because I care about the Lions, and more than that I care about rugby in our part of the world. If Gatland selects the Wales squad of 2013 and a few others then we will lose and we will lose badly, it's been 24 years since the Lions have had a half decent crack at New Zealand. The selections so far seem almost like it's a squad picked for the Autumn internationals after 2013.

Don't be so negative. The squad is picked to do a job, not satisfy the populist clamour. He's obviously got a gameplan and he will pick a squad to execute it. I really don't understand the indignation that surrounds only Stuart Hogg making the tour. Why do they have a divine right to have more included? Because they were decent in 2 matches this 6N, after a catalogue of failure over recent years? And where they do have strong performers, the competition is fierce. It's no outrage.

I'd say three strong performances and a strong Autumn, as well as a strong European performance from Glasgow. The fact that Jonny Gray, Richie Gray, Tommy Seymour, Alex Dunbar etc. have played well for club and country over the last 18 months. When you talk of the squad being picked to do a job, the job quite frankly is to beat one of the best teams ever to have played our sport at home under conditions that are becoming increasingly difficult in the professional era. That does not make the Lions any less special, if anything it makes them more so. However when you see teams that include Jamie Roberts being bandied about it is hard not to be negative. Don't get me wrong he is a good player, he was a great player and at points between 2009 and 2014 there were times when he was the most effective inside-centre at world rugby, and when you consider his contemporaries that is no mean feat. However he has not been in the Wales side of late, nor has he set the world alight playing for Quins. He is, at this stage of his career, not good enough to trouble New Zealand. Conversely Jonathan Joseph has electric feet and an intelligent kicking game, I personally would start Farrell and Henshaw ahead of him in the first test and look to play a conservative game plan based on power. When New Zealand have been threatened the most in the past it has been by South Africa at their brutal best and it is the best way to get to them. But there is a very good chance that the first test will expose what we all probably fear, that simply the time constraints coupled with the sheer scale of the task will mean that the Lions simply will not be able to execute a game plan capable of outdoing New Zealand. If that is the case then one could argue that rugby is merely a game of moments, you can have a solid 80 minutes and score fewer than 10 points, you can have 4 magic moments and score 28. There is no doubt that players like Jonathan Joseph, Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, George Ford and George North all fall into the category, for different reasons, of players who can produce moments of magic worth 7 points. And for that reason alone having a team out that can dig in for 80 and put their bodies on the line in the hope that such a herculean effort can sufficiently limit New Zealand and a magic moment, or two or even three from the above names will be enough to beat them.

Whilst the Lions dont need to score a hatful of tries to beat NZ, the ability to score one or two might be handy, particularly if we are to rely on the misfiring boot of the much diminished HalfPenny. If JD2 is playing the wingers wont see much decent ball.

Gatland not picking Joseph, or people suggesting that the Lions won't score 1 or 2 tries if he picks Roberts. You tell me who is being more ridiculous here. "beyond parody" I think I read earlier. Calm down.

Very disappointed to see Launchbury and Joseph miss out, but it does give credence to the fact that Gatland is selecting his type of player. Clearly, Joseph didn't show enough for Gatland's liking in the Six Nations, and whilst I'd agree that his all round game- and defence- looked poor, he's so potent in attack it seems madness to not give him a shot. That said, I understand the rationale of having solidity at 13 over variable flair, as it's what I've been saying would happen for 12 months.

Launchbury's a bit more confusing than Joseph. Again, however, I think it's that he doesn't fit the 'type'. Pace and athelticism will be needed out there, and although he has a good workload, it's that 'top level' intensity where someone like Itoje, Gray, and AWJ pip him. Still, very harsh.

Nevertheless, both players will surely be right at the top of the standby list, and stand a good chance of touring.

I couldn't see him picking Roberts before this 'leak' purely because he isn't good enough. Brad barritt is in better form if you want that sort of player.

Duplicate

Give it a rest miaow Joseph was not poor defensively in the 6ns. You may have been right all along that Gatland is poor tactically though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I couldn't see him oucking Roberts before this 'leak' purely because he isn't good enough. Brad barritt is in better form if you want that sort of player.  

The leak doesn't suggest Roberts does it? Just Davies. Who is not in any better form

Joseph was a lot better defensively than he was in attack!

cascough wrote:Gatland not picking Joseph, or people suggesting that the Lions won't score 1 or 2 tries if he picks Roberts. You tell me who is being more ridiculous here. "beyond parody" I think I read earlier. Calm down.

I think you're being deliberately disingenuous, the simple fact is that Roberts is not even the best Welsh inside centre let alone the best in Britain and Ireland, I am not suggesting that they won't score any tries with Roberts but rather at this stage of their careers Joseph is a far more creative player than Roberts, furthermore if he picks Roberts it shows he has discounted all the evidence of the last 12 months, there are players available now who can do better than Roberts can at what he specialises in doing. Now as far as your "calm down" comment goes, I am perfectly calm but if we were not to express opinions and points of view then there would be little point in this forum at all. It would be a very boring place if every time a report came out or an incident occurred we all agreed it was interesting and expressed no opinions it would be a very dull place.

Kind of losing all hope cj. Looks to be the same as 2013 swapping Tuilagi for te'o. Depressing if this is the case.

123456789 wrote:

cascough wrote:

123456789 wrote:Clive Woodward's selection in the Mail is interesting to put it kindly. Stuart Hogg is the only Scottish player touring and he selects Davies as a 12. I do think with Clive though that there is a voice in his head telling him over and over again "you're a maverick Clive, do something nutty, it might work". I think he has been probably in the same spot in rugby terms for nigh on 25 years now, for the first half he was way ahead of everyone, now he's miles behind.

All these leaks are fairly certain which is unusual and unsettling, Jonny Gray for example was in the vast majority of post 6 Nations Lions tours and nowhere near now, Jonathan Joseph is the same. The squads that are appearing now seem devoid of ambition and picked for 2013, some of the players are very good players who just haven't had it for the last 12-24 months. I hope he picks the right squad not because of any perceived bias toward my country or against another but because I care about the Lions, and more than that I care about rugby in our part of the world. If Gatland selects the Wales squad of 2013 and a few others then we will lose and we will lose badly, it's been 24 years since the Lions have had a half decent crack at New Zealand. The selections so far seem almost like it's a squad picked for the Autumn internationals after 2013.

Don't be so negative. The squad is picked to do a job, not satisfy the populist clamour. He's obviously got a gameplan and he will pick a squad to execute it. I really don't understand the indignation that surrounds only Stuart Hogg making the tour. Why do they have a divine right to have more included? Because they were decent in 2 matches this 6N, after a catalogue of failure over recent years? And where they do have strong performers, the competition is fierce. It's no outrage.

I'd say three strong performances and a strong Autumn, as well as a strong European performance from Glasgow. The fact that Jonny Gray, Richie Gray, Tommy Seymour, Alex Dunbar etc. have played well for club and country over the last 18 months. When you talk of the squad being picked to do a job, the job quite frankly is to beat one of the best teams ever to have played our sport at home under conditions that are becoming increasingly difficult in the professional era. That does not make the Lions any less special, if anything it makes them more so. However when you see teams that include Jamie Roberts being bandied about it is hard not to be negative. Don't get me wrong he is a good player, he was a great player and at points between 2009 and 2014 there were times when he was the most effective inside-centre at world rugby, and when you consider his contemporaries that is no mean feat. However he has not been in the Wales side of late, nor has he set the world alight playing for Quins. He is, at this stage of his career, not good enough to trouble New Zealand. Conversely Jonathan Joseph has electric feet and an intelligent kicking game, I personally would start Farrell and Henshaw ahead of him in the first test and look to play a conservative game plan based on power. When New Zealand have been threatened the most in the past it has been by South Africa at their brutal best and it is the best way to get to them. But there is a very good chance that the first test will expose what we all probably fear, that simply the time constraints coupled with the sheer scale of the task will mean that the Lions simply will not be able to execute a game plan capable of outdoing New Zealand. If that is the case then one could argue that rugby is merely a game of moments, you can have a solid 80 minutes and score fewer than 10 points, you can have 4 magic moments and score 28. There is no doubt that players like Jonathan Joseph, Stuart Hogg, Finn Russell, George Ford and George North all fall into the category, for different reasons, of players who can produce moments of magic worth 7 points. And for that reason alone having a team out that can dig in for 80 and put their bodies on the line in the hope that such a herculean effort can sufficiently limit New Zealand and a magic moment, or two or even three from the above names will be enough to beat them.

Most inept italian performance I've seen. But that's just my opinion. You lost the crunch game in the autumn and played Georgia?? Glasgow have fallen away this season, no? Scotland no doubt look to be on the up, but they were pretty far down, and the upturn has come a little too late in the lions cycle for me.

Anyway, aside from that...

Jonny and Richie Gray competing in an area of ridiculous strength. Dunbar absolutely woeful in the England game, was he really THAT good in the rest that it's sensational if he doesn't get selected? Seymour, pretty decent, but there are lots of suitors for that spot. Again, was he THAT good that it's inconceivable he doesn't make the cut? I'd rather have Maitland in personally, but the point is, people are massively overreacting here, just because potentially things aren't going the way they (not a professional coach) want them to.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Give it a rest miaow Joseph was not poor defensively in the 6ns.  You may have been right all along that Gatland is poor tactically though.

Give it a rest?

How much evidence does there need to be before you wake up and smell the coffee?

Why wasn't Joseph selected? Because he's not what Gatland wants. Why's he not what Gatland wants? Because he's not good enough defensively at 13, which is an integral position in the defensive system.

No, I'm the one who's made an opinion based on evidence, and whilst I'm surprised and disappointed Joseph hasn't made the tour, clearly- yet again- I'm vindicated.

When you start posting something with a bit more substance than "Gatland is tactically" poor, you might deserve to be listened to, but as it is, please stop policing the forum, because (whilst this sounds a bit arrogant, it needs to be said) if there's one person who's being proven correct on this forum on this issue, it's me above everyone else.

I'd be astonished if Roberts toured. He'd be a good call up late in the Tour because of his experience, personality, and work ethic etc., but in no way is he good enough on Rugby playing ability, and hasn't been for a long while.

Scott Williams has been one of the best 12s in European Club Rugby for years. He hasn't quite hit the heights yet for Wales, having only been handed the starting shirt this 6Ns, but I can't see how he'll be behind Roberts. He has far more ability in every single area of the game.

Not overly surprised by Te'o, tends to make sense. With Farrell first choice 12 at this stage, also covering as 10, that probably leaves Dunbar, S Williams, Jon Davies, Te'o to Tour.

Selection hasn't taken place yet. It could be that these silly mistakes don't happen. And no you're clearly not correct more deluded. Everyone knows it's beshocked who is always right.