British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

It's hard to be too constructive with someone like you miaow.

cascough wrote:

People accusing him of tokenism, watch the Lions DVDs, watch how nervous he gets when watching the games. There walks a man who desperately wants to win. He's picking a squad that he thinks will deliver that.

I'm no great lover of Gatland and his tactics, and christ knows, if the rumours are true then there will be players missing I'd have selected and players present I wouldn't, but he's got the job, he's gonna do it to the best of his ability, lets get behind the team!  

I think that final line is important. Seems some people lose sight of what actually matters, and why we watch and enjoy Rugby. We've got this caricature of Gatland consistently reinforced as some evil, anti-Rugby, pro-Welsh mercenary, rather than a man motivated by the same motivations as anyone.

It also feels like some people are losing their sense of perspective, and their roles of supporters. Frankly, I appreciate the political ramifications of supporting or disavowing the Lions. But to abandon supporting them on the basis of how many of your own countries' players are picked is ridiculous, the very definition of fairweather.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

I have to agree with Pooly here, JJ for me is better than Ringrose right now and would deserve a place ahead of him. Think Ringrose has great potential but right now I would feel more confident with JJ.

12 : Henshaw/Farrell
13 : JJ or Possibly Jason Bourne of Scotland...

That's how it looks to me.

Grand by me.     Ringrose gets to tour with Schmidt and Ireland.  I'll be more focused on the serious business of preparing Ireland for the future and the next WC.

I am all for Ringrose developing with Ireland but that was not my point. Point being that I agree with Pooly that JJ is a better 13 than Ringrose right now and is more than deserved of a spot in the squad ahead of him.

2017; the year Gatland did a BOD on Ringrose . Say goodbye to Gary's career.

miaow wrote:

cascough wrote:

People accusing him of tokenism, watch the Lions DVDs, watch how nervous he gets when watching the games. There walks a man who desperately wants to win. He's picking a squad that he thinks will deliver that.

I'm no great lover of Gatland and his tactics, and christ knows, if the rumours are true then there will be players missing I'd have selected and players present I wouldn't, but he's got the job, he's gonna do it to the best of his ability, lets get behind the team!  

I think that final line is important. Seems some people lose sight of what actually matters, and why we watch and enjoy Rugby. We've got this caricature of Gatland consistently reinforced as some evil, anti-Rugby, pro-Welsh mercenary, rather than a man motivated by the same motivations as anyone.

It also feels like some people are losing their sense of perspective, and their roles of supporters. Frankly, I appreciate the political ramifications of supporting or disavowing the Lions. But to abandon supporting them on the basis of how many of your own countries' players are picked is ridiculous, the very definition of fairweather.

To be fair I still supported SCW's  power of four singing abomination I think I can get behind whatever Gatland churns out. However his closeness to certain players in the Lions selection pool IMO is not an advantage, it is an obstacle. That in some ways will cloud his judgement and not allow him to make a decision based on cold hard facts and make him more inclined to make picks with the heart instead of the head.

George Carlin wrote:
Good video - serves as a reminder of how crucial Liam Williams is.

My worry is less that and more, well, this sort of thing:

Yeah, I don't deny it. A sign of how 'running ability' from the wings is the most important area in Gatland's team, not 13. It's also a sign of how a rudderless and leaderless scratch Welsh team can be vastly inferior to the Test side; a sign, perhaps, of how well Gatland does to raise the standard of the team from regional level.

That result was unacceptable from a Welsh perspective, but you can't see it as anything other than a Lions 'trial' for Gatland, i.e. testing the waters for this Summer. He certainly got his answer as to the competitiveness of domestic Rugby in NZ, and how a less prepared side would fare. He also got a good look at the Welsh depth beyond the first and second choices, and frankly, it wasn't great.

As has been mentioned, this Tour is almost ridiculously difficult, but it's what Gatland wanted after feeling the team was undercooked in Australia.

miaow wrote:

George Carlin wrote:
Good video - serves as a reminder of how crucial Liam Williams is.

My worry is less that and more, well, this sort of thing:

Yeah, I don't deny it. A sign of how 'running ability' from the wings is the most important area in Gatland's team, not 13. It's also a sign of how a rudderless and leaderless scratch Welsh team can be vastly inferior to the Test side; a sign, perhaps, of how well Gatland does to raise the standard of the team from regional level.

That result was unacceptable from a Welsh perspective, but you can't see it as anything other than a Lions 'trial' for Gatland, i.e. testing the waters for this Summer. He certainly got his answer as to the competitiveness of domestic Rugby in NZ, and how a less prepared side would fare. He also got a good look at the Welsh depth beyond the first and second choices, and frankly, it wasn't great.

As has been mentioned, this Tour is almost ridiculously difficult, but it's what Gatland wanted after feeling the team was undercooked in Australia.

Undercooked 4 years ago? Maybe. However this tour looks like cremation. Certainly we won't be undercooked but will any of the players survive this frankly absurd schedule?

Do we still think he will stick to a 37 man squad? Or do we think he might beef it up a bit?

There's a Canes game midweek between the first and second test. Going to need more than 37 involved.

For this sort of tour (schedule and the location IE dirtiest place to tour in world rugby) I would certainly take 40+ players.

He complained about both the standard in Australia (Combined Country?) as well as the shallowness of the squad, which left him pulling in players late into the Tour like Barritt, Wade, Shane Williams (!!) etc. Clearly, the standard has been addressed, and there's no danger of being undercooked. As you say, they're going to struggle to deal with the subsequent loss of bodies due to this extra intensity if they haven't addressed the size of the squad. I would be amazed if there are fewer than 40 players on the Tour, to be honest, and why- maybe- talk of dismissing Joseph and Launchbury is a bit premature. At the very least, they're at the top of the standby list, and have a good chance of featuring at some point.

eirebilly wrote:

I am all for Ringrose developing with Ireland but that was not my point. Point being that I agree with Pooly that JJ is a better 13 than Ringrose right now and is more than deserved of a spot in the squad ahead of him.

I get you billy, I know you're ramming home the point. I get it. I know the tones.

I'm ramming home mine. I can't say Ringrose is a lesser player, only that he has less experience at the level. I don't care who Gatland picks. The future will decide on which player is better in every department... i.e. match by match by match from here on in.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

I am all for Ringrose developing with Ireland but that was not my point. Point being that I agree with Pooly that JJ is a better 13 than Ringrose right now and is more than deserved of a spot in the squad ahead of him.

I get you billy, I know you're ramming home the point.  I get it.  I know the tones.  

I'm ramming home mine.   I can't say Ringrose is a lesser player, only that he has less experience at the level.  I don't care who Gatland picks.  The future will decide on which player is better in every department... i.e. match by match by match from here on in.

You're twisting the original point somewhat SF. I said JJ was a better player in this moment in time, at this current point in his development. I not doubting Ringrose will develop, bu the tour isn't in 2 years, 3 years etc....it's coming in the next few months.

If we look at the two players currently, do you actually think Ringrose is a better player than JJ?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Undercooked 4 years ago? Maybe. However this tour looks like cremation. Certainly we won't be undercooked but will any of the players survive this frankly absurd schedule?

Do we still think he will stick to a 37 man squad? Or do we think he might beef it up a bit?

The initial squad size is trivial these days with how high injury rates are.

I'd wager that the initial playing squad that flies out will already be over 40 once you include 'injury cover' for guys that take knocks in the end of season run-in but still travel whilst trying to get fit.

By the end of the '13 tour 46 players had been out in Oz with the squad at varying points. In '09 it was 45 players involved in total from start to finish.

The initial touring squad still holds a lot of prestige given the history that comes with the Lions. There will be around 10 players who narrowly miss out that get called up over the tour though. Even if the likes of Joseph, Launchbury and Jonny Gray narrowly miss out they will probably end up on tour soon after anyway similar to Rory Best in '13 or James Hook in '09.

In '09 there were three players (Flannery, Quinlan and Tomas O'Leary) who were initially selected but didn't make the first flight due to injury or suspension. In '13 it was just Hartley who was originally selected but didn't feature at all. I really hope that some idiot doesn't make it a third tour in a row in which someone is selected then ruled out of the entire tour due to suspension!

100 players have already signed contracts.

The funniest aspect of all this is that I don't like Gatland, I don't rate his rugby and I wouldn't take him at any of the teams I have interest. Yet if he wins this series he can probably put his hand up as the best ever coach of the British and Irish Lions. In terms of what he'd have achieved firstly he'll have toured with the 2009 group who nearly beat the best team in the world at the time and arguably saved the Lions as a concept, beat Australia in 2013 and New Zealand and 2017.

King_Carlos Flannery made some training sessions, they were on the DVD. Were they before the Lions departed these sunny shores?

cascough wrote:King_Carlos Flannery made some training sessions, they were on the DVD. Were they before the Lions departed these sunny shores?

Yep, I believe so. Think he was injured in the pre travel camps. Such a shame as he was in fantastic form that season.

One of the last throwbacks to the before hookers needed to be a third prop in the scrum. It's often said that old school hookers were rough around the edges for the simple reason that you needed to be insane to hang between two guys twice your size whilst having the agility to knee yourself in face to get a good strike. All that whilst taking the pressure of the opposition pack with one leg off the ground.

Flannery was that kind of hooker. He looked borderline psychotic on the pitch and seemingly immune to pain a lot of time - similar to 'Mad Dog' Moody there. His 'slingshot' like line-out throws with precision and huge range were quite something as well. Cracking player.

123456789 wrote:The funniest aspect of all this is that I don't like Gatland, I don't rate his rugby and I wouldn't take him at any of the teams I have interest. Yet if he wins this series he can probably put his hand up as the best ever coach of the British and Irish Lions. In terms of what he'd have achieved firstly he'll have toured with the 2009 group who nearly beat the best team in the world at the time and arguably saved the Lions as a concept, beat Australia in 2013 and New Zealand and 2017.

Oh I don't know.  The whole thing has so many tentacles that virtually every possible story can be attached to the Lions myth.  

Is beating SH sides all that special anymore?  Well, only New Zealand holds on to the aura.  Are most NH sides now much more professional and ready to cope with the 'natural' swagger and fizzikalitee of SH sides?  

So what real comparisons do you make between ultra Professional National sides now v amateur sides of docs, farmers and solicitors of the past?  Steadily that gap between the traditionally strong SH and the awkward and plodding NH has lessened as the decades of Professionalism roll by.  Indeed, I think in the next number of Lions years it might become a bit of a joke to have 4 independent International teams gang up on single Nation sides and call series victories over them amazing achievements. The amazing achievement will be (and in my opinion already is) what those single Nation sides can accomplish against De Lions juggernaut.

So Gatland already has his supporters as one of the best coaches (even before the coming Lions tour) but he'll also have the nitty gritty critics that will say what he has achieved isn't remotely close to what the lads who lived in Black & white achieved before him.

miaow wrote:If the reports are correct, out of interest, why do you (collectively) think that Joseph hasn't made the squad?

Gatland sticking with what he knows

miaow wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

miaow wrote:I'm genuinely interested, though.

Could some of the posters who've been so condescending to me regarding my opinions on Joseph try to come up with a reason as to why- if the report is correct- he may be left out of the Lions squad?

He can pass and he's below 16st.

https://youtu.be/0OtUvG3C9jg?t=1m26s

Great hands by a 16st 'cant pass' crashball centre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh4HBF-IIl8

Shocking defence by Jospeh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking

ChequeredJersey wrote:

miaow wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

miaow wrote:I'm genuinely interested, though.

Could some of the posters who've been so condescending to me regarding my opinions on Joseph try to come up with a reason as to why- if the report is correct- he may be left out of the Lions squad?

He can pass and he's below 16st.

https://youtu.be/0OtUvG3C9jg?t=1m26s

Great hands by a 16st 'cant pass' crashball centre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh4HBF-IIl8

Shocking defence by Jospeh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking

Exactly. Davies is pretty undefendable in the distribution stakes, he throws away too many shockers and kicks a lot of ball away. You don't need a few youtube clips to highlight that, he does it most games.

Gatland has decided on how his team should play to have the best chance of winning the series. He is therefore trying to find the players best suited to deliver his gameplan, rather than select the best players then find a gameplan that works. It is hard to be critical of his methodology as trying to build a coherent team with limited time is not easy - though this does presume their is a chance of winning the series.


Of course the selection of can't pass, can't kick JD2 makes it easier for people to be critical, but there is a certain logic behind the rumoured selections.

Here's one for you. There's a rumour doing the rounds that Dylan Hartley is the preferred choice for captain (credit @rugbyinsideline).

There's some method to that. Hartley is from NZ, has done a great job captaining his side to back to back 6N. I can see Hartley being the sort of abrasive leader Gatland would like.

It would also allow Warburton to concentrate on carrying on his excellent form.

Can't see it myself, as Hartley would probably already know and he hardly played like an uncertain man on Sunday. Would be interesting though.

Oh lord, the meltdown this board would suffer if Hartley is named captain.

Like you I struggle to see it happening, but historically the captain of GS and title winning teams have been favoured.

LondonTiger wrote:Oh lord, the meltdown this board would suffer if Hartley is named captain.

Like you I struggle to see it happening, but historically the captain of GS and title winning teams have been favoured.

'Meltdown' is a tad melodramatic there, Tiger - no?  

As a 606 reaction, I'm more reminded of the famous line by a man named Osgood Fielding III: "Well, nobody's perfect".

The basterdes (us 606ers) had months to call it and they couldn't fix on a cert.  So let Gats have his pick.  No big deal.

OTOH http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/dylan-hartley-s-place-in-doubt-as-fears-are-raised-over-lions-schedule-a3516901.html

LondonTiger wrote:Oh lord, the meltdown this board would suffer if Hartley is named captain.

Like you I struggle to see it happening, but historically the captain of GS and title winning teams have been favoured.

Not always really. The last two slams in a Lions year:

In 09 Paul O'Connell was tour captain but BOD captained Ireland to the GS.

In 05 Drico was tour captain but Wales won the slam.

SecretFly wrote:
'Meltdown' is a tad melodramatic there, Tiger - no?  

Not sure I am being melodramatic. I can hear certain posters now (white, green and red) going thermo-nucleur with their disgust.

SecretFly wrote:As a 606 reaction, I'm more reminded of the famous line by a man named Osgood Fielding III: "Well, nobody's perfect".

Aye, but he had yet to properly address the undercarriage problem with his new beau.

Looks set to be a good Munster contingent in the squad with Ryan, Murray and POM rumoured to have been pencilled in. Zebo has also been included in recent photo shoots.

Makes sense given Munster beat the Maori this year and some of these guys beat NZ with Ireland.

Not sure if meltdown is melodramatic. "beyond parody" has been used to describe a player being picked, amongst other, less snappy, overreactions.

Plus, beshocked would go into overdrive and post messages with as many words as miaows, only punctuated by a blank line after every sentence. If nothing else that would swell the number of pages on the thread

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Looks set to be a good Munster contingent in the squad with Ryan, Murray and POM rumoured to have been pencilled in. Zebo has also been included in recent photo shoots.

Makes sense given Munster beat the Maori this year and some of these guys beat NZ with Ireland.

Don't many players get photographed in the kit? That's why they can have those pics ready for the actual squad announcements...plus they have pics then ready for any injury call-ups as well.

Well at least my irritation would bring joy to posters such as you cascough. Silver lining I guess.

Also his significant fan base will be very pleased with the decision.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Looks set to be a good Munster contingent in the squad with Ryan, Murray and POM rumoured to have been pencilled in. Zebo has also been included in recent photo shoots.

Makes sense given Munster beat the Maori this year and some of these guys beat NZ with Ireland.

The forwards would be a great shout, Murray a given, Zebo a shock....very average.

It's true I do find overreactions irritating, but it's nothing personal. And really, I was only making a joke.

beshocked wrote:Well at least my irritation would bring joy to posters such as you cascough. Silver lining I guess.

Also his significant fan base will be very pleased with the decision.

Jamie George probably became a fan after Hartley taught him a thing or two about leadership at the weekend.

Whilst I wouldn't be happy with Hartley as captain, I would prefer him to someone like Warburton.

Warburton is currently injured, and has demonstrably proven to play better when he is not the captain of his country.

Personally I'd like to see Best or someone like him leading the Lions.

A Warrenball Lions ...

(with apologies to Tennyson)

Half a world half a world,
Half a world away,
All in the valley of Death
Strode the thirty-seven:
'Forward, the Lions’ Brigade!
Charge into contact' Gats said:
Into the valley of Death
Strode the thirty-seven

'Forward, the Lions' Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay’d?
Not tho' the player knew
Gatland had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs to try but not score tries,
Into the valley of Death
Strode the thirty-seven.

Barretts to right of them,
Whitelocks to left of them,
Haka in front of them
Tackle'd and plunder'd;
Storm'd at with pace and power,
Solidly they strode and somewhat well,
Into the jaws of total rugby,
Into the mouth of Hell
Strode the thirty-seven.

Charg'd straight into contact here,
No offloads as they turn'd in air
Kicking for territory there,
Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the tight channels
Right against the Black line they broke;
The all-mighty Blackness
Absorb'd the bludgeon-stroke,
Counter'd & scor'd.
Then they strode back, but not
Not the thirty-seven.

Crusaders to right of them,
Maori to left of them,
All Blacks in front of them
Tackle'd and plunder'd;
Storm'd at with talent and guile,
While back & forward fell,
They that had fought, err, quite well, considering
Came thro' the jaws of Total Rugby,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of thirty seven.

How soon their glory fades.
O the limited charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Laidlaw is being taken because the squad will be light on Scots (presumably)"

I really doubt that Rugger.

I also think Seymour & Watson are well down the pecking order, well my pecking order anyway.

I appreciate it's all opinions, but I would be interested to know who you think would be above them in a pecking order? An injured Sam Warburton? Sean O'brien who was utterly nulified by Watson in their head to head? Haskell who is a terrific athlete but not much of a rugby player?

Seymour is a guy who has real competition from the likes of Nowell or Ant Watson (I left Daly out who must surely be considered a 13 since JJ might be getting left out which is another error IMO), but certainly Cuthbert, Earls or Zebo haven't done more than him this year to warrant selection.

Sorry for late reply Rugger.

Seymour is a solid winger but I can think of quite a few better, that's the easy one: North, Williams, Watson, Nowell, May. Seymour around 6/7th choice for me.

Watson a touch more difficult, his problem really being he's a new boy on the block in Int terms. Personally, I'd have the following flanks ahead (flanks not 7's): Warburton, POM, SOB, Haskell, Robshaw, Tipuric.

No slight on either player, I just theres better about.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well at least my irritation would bring joy to posters such as you cascough. Silver lining I guess.

Also his significant fan base will be very pleased with the decision.

Jamie George probably became a fan after Hartley taught him a thing or two about leadership at the weekend.

I think the person who got taught a lesson was J.Mallinder more than anyone. You'd think after a 3rd narrow loss he'd learn by now.

Got to close a game out.

George himself I doubt will be too upset - afterall his team still won and he as an ERCC semi final to look forward to.

Must have been painful for Hartley to see his side fall apart when watching from the bench. I take solace in that.

By the way I don't dislike Saints - mainly just Hartley, shame to see Picamoles go off like that. I like the look of H.Mallinder.

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well at least my irritation would bring joy to posters such as you cascough. Silver lining I guess.

Also his significant fan base will be very pleased with the decision.

Jamie George probably became a fan after Hartley taught him a thing or two about leadership at the weekend.

I think the person who got taught a lesson was J.Mallinder more than anyone. You'd think after a 3rd narrow loss he'd learn by now.

Got to close a game out.

George himself I doubt will be too upset - afterall his team still won and he as an ERCC semi final to look forward to.

Must have been painful for Hartley to see his side fall apart when watching from the bench. I take solace in that.  

By the way I don't dislike Saints - mainly just Hartley, shame to see Picamoles go off like that. I like the look of H.Mallinder.

Seems a funny way of saying that Hartley outplayed George, but I'm sure that if that game were to be the deciding factor in one of those two making the touring party (as was reported) then you won't begrudge Hartley his place?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Laidlaw is being taken because the squad will be light on Scots (presumably)"

I really doubt that Rugger.

I also think Seymour & Watson are well down the pecking order, well my pecking order anyway.

I appreciate it's all opinions, but I would be interested to know who you think would be above them in a pecking order? An injured Sam Warburton? Sean O'brien who was utterly nulified by Watson in their head to head? Haskell who is a terrific athlete but not much of a rugby player?

Seymour is a guy who has real competition from the likes of Nowell or Ant Watson (I left Daly out who must surely be considered a 13 since JJ might be getting left out which is another error IMO), but certainly Cuthbert, Earls or Zebo haven't done more than him this year to warrant selection.

Sorry for late reply Rugger.

Seymour is a solid winger but I can think of quite a few better, that's the easy one: North, Williams, Watson, Nowell, May. Seymour around 6/7th choice for me.

Watson a touch more difficult, his problem really being he's a new boy on the block in Int terms. Personally, I'd have the following flanks ahead (flanks not 7's): Warburton, POM, SOB, Haskell, Robshaw, Tipuric.

No slight on either player, I just theres better about.

I'd give you a fully fit and on form North but there's very little between Seymour, Maitland and the rest of the wings you mentioned - Jonny May would be bottom of my list! Seymour has a decent try scoring record - 16 tries in 36 caps (44%), and most notably has scored good tries against NZ and Australia. Both Seymour and Maitland are excellent in the air -  something Gatland says he is looking for.

I think we'll see one of Seymour or Maitland in the squad tomorrow.

Nice distraction from the fact George was outplayed BS

Can't agree RDW, Seymour would get nowhere an England squad. I'd possibly even throw Ashton and Yarde ahead of him if I'm totally honest.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't agree RDW, Seymour would get nowhere an England squad. I'd possibly even throw Ashton and Yarde ahead of him if I'm totally honest.

Fair enough, but as someone who has watched him for years and watched all his Scotland performances - and trying to be has objective as I can - I genuinely think he would be deserving of his place in the squad if selected after consistently good performances (and a lot of tries) for Scotland and Glasgow.

As I said I think other than a fully fit and on form North all the other wingers you list are a similar standard and would be deserving to tour - just not Jonny May! Great athlete, not a great winger.

As an aside, Liam Williams only has 8 tries in 43 tests (18.6%) - I think he deserves to tour but that is a pretty terrible strike rate for an international class back 3 player!

cascough wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well at least my irritation would bring joy to posters such as you cascough. Silver lining I guess.

Also his significant fan base will be very pleased with the decision.

Jamie George probably became a fan after Hartley taught him a thing or two about leadership at the weekend.

I think the person who got taught a lesson was J.Mallinder more than anyone. You'd think after a 3rd narrow loss he'd learn by now.

Got to close a game out.

George himself I doubt will be too upset - afterall his team still won and he as an ERCC semi final to look forward to.

Must have been painful for Hartley to see his side fall apart when watching from the bench. I take solace in that.  

By the way I don't dislike Saints - mainly just Hartley, shame to see Picamoles go off like that. I like the look of H.Mallinder.

Seems a funny way of saying that Hartley outplayed George, but I'm sure that if that game were to be the deciding factor in one of those two making the touring party (as was reported) then you won't begrudge Hartley his place?

Depends if you think a Lions spot should go to Hartley based on a relatively insignificant club game where the opposition had one eye on the week after and Hartley's team still lost.

Personally I think Saints should have been 17 points up at half time not 7. Needed to give themselves enough of a lead to be victorious.

One could argue Hartley won the battle but then again he should, he was playing in a 1st choice pack against a side who were playing an 18 year old at lock, their 2 3rd choice props, 2nd choice 6 and 8.

Plus his team still lost. If Hartley gets credit for victories that he wasn't on the field to see out he shouldn't be allowed to get away with losses.

My winger picks would be Nowell, North, Watson and Williams. However, I do think Seymour, Zebo, May and Trimble (broken hand) are all good enough to go.

Trimble has had some really good performances against NZ and will probably go down as one of Ireland's better players not to get a Lions call up in his career.

cascough wrote:Here's one for you. There's a rumour doing the rounds that Dylan Hartley is the preferred choice for captain (credit @rugbyinsideline).

That account is notorious. Almost like it tries a lot of long shots in the hope of getting credit for those which come good. I see just afterwards it reports Sam Warburton picked up with his bag spacked.

RDW_Scotland wrote:As an aside, Liam Williams only has 8 tries in 43 tests (18.6%) - I think he deserves to tour but that is a pretty terrible strike rate for an international class back 3 player!

Fergus McFadden has scored 10 tries for Ireland in 33 tests including one v NZ.