England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Nowell on one wing and Wade on the other has nice balance I'd say.

Nowell apparently with the lions. Solomona starts at least one test.

May & Solonona has some threat to it, backline should look pretty tasty.

And will Watson And Daly away he'll surely start brown with haley on the bench?

robbo277 wrote:
We defended against Argentina with one winger in the Autumn. Wade has to be better than literally no-one.

Good point well made! Can't believe I'd forgotten that.

Watson,Daly and Nowell all to tour with the Lions? Surprised if true.

If Brown can be encouraged to pass the ball more, a backline of Solomona,Wade and Brown should be good enough.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Can Paul Gustard not work out a defensive tactic for Wade. Im sure he could.

He's not going to make him taller. At almost 26, is Wade ever going to improve in defence?

Maybe not but surely something can be done. He is some talent. Just wasted.

But he does have some competition with Watson, Nowell etc....and maybe Earle who looks a big lad.

Geordiefalcon if Nowell,Daly and Watson tour it gives Wade an opportunity.

Sadly Earle isn't ready yet, needs more game time.

Ah I wasn't suggesting Earle for this tour...merely saying that its yet more potential competition for Wade coming through...

True but this tour could be an opportunity for some players to make a claim.

Absentees create opportunities.

I'll be interested in who Jones plays at 12 if Teo and Farrell tour.

Also there's Slade. Where should he settle?

Slade surely starts at 12. I'm assuming devoto will be back as well as possibly hill.

Slade needs to go in at 12 yeah I agree.

He'd be an interesting option at 12, can't say I've really seen him play there. I'd like to see Devoto involved, he's got a great all round game.

Slades been the nearly man through the 6 nations so almost certainly will play 12 if the rumoured lions squad is correct. Ford Slade JJ wouldnt be much of a shift for England, maybe trades a bit of goal kicking for some additional running threat but the basic two playmakers and JJs pace makes it almost a like for like swap with Farrell.

So with JJ selected for NZ, we have a vacancy to fill at 13. I would like to see Sam James (Sale) or Joe Marchant get a go. Marchant a like for like replacement, James more of the Te'o type.

Now over to Eddie to name his squad tomorrow.

Marchant seemed to be quite high in EJs thinking (been present in earlier training camps). Watching him at Quins though - I would be concerned with testing him at this level just yet.
Defence leaves a lot to be desired.
With Daly, JJ and Teo out then Slade is quite likely to step into the 12 role with Ford at 10.

Is Devoto still in the loop?
Sam James could be interesting LT.
Tompkins was in the Saxons wasn't he?

I do hope that there aren't recalls for Burrell. Is this Mallinders opportunity?

Marler, Mako, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, Te'o, Joseph, Daly, Nowell and Watson all unavaiable. That's 16, but doubling up on props, an extra lock and leaving us with our flankers.

Of those who featured heavily in the Six Nations and previously, Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Care, Ford, May and Brown are all available.

Marler in aswell...well done him.

Very disappointed for Launchbury! What more did that lad have to do!!!

Plus it makes quite a statement that we only have 1 back rower in the BI's.

Robshaw and Haskell are miles better than moriarty so I wouldn't read too much into it.

So something like:

LH: Genge, +1 (Hepburn / Mullan / Waller) (2)
Hooker: Hartley, Taylor, LCD (3)
TH: Brookes, Hill, +1 (3)
Locks: Launchbury, Ewells, Barrow, + 1 (4)
Flankers: Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Underhill, (4)
No8: Hughes, Beaumont (2)

SH: Care, Robson, Spencer (3)
FH: Ford, Lozowski, (2)
IC: Slade, +1 (2)
OC: Marchant, Tompkins (2)
Wings: May, Yarde, Roku, +1 (4)
FB: Brown, Haley (2)

I would rest Brown, and by rest I mean drop him because he never passes the bloody ball in an England shirt.

I don't think I would bother with Barrow.

I think Devoto will go with Slade as he covers a lot of positions.

What's wrong with Barrow?  Just turned 24, 6' 7" and 19st.  Captained England at u16s and u18s, plus junior World Cup winner.  He has had a few injuries but when fully fit he looks a combative presence who does his share of tackling and carrying.  Personally I would have him ahead of Ewells, although Ewells seems to have bags of potential.  I can't think of many second rows who are available who would be an obvious pick ahead of Barrow.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Plus it makes quite a statement that we only have 1 back rower in the BI's.

True but England has a lot of representation in the front five and even Hartley + Launchbury missing out has been seen as contentious.

2LH, 1HK, 2 TH, 3 locks - good I'd say.

Hartley is not contentious. He's not good enough simple as that (in my opinion anyway)

Launchbury is different - very questionable omission. However your right Sinkler and Marler maybe were unexpected.

Geordiefalcon perhaps you feel that way but I am sure some fans might have had Hartley in the squad.

Launchbury has some tough competition. He had a good tournament but IMO offers individually less than his fellow English locks. All 3 are better lineout operators, Kruis and Itoje are supposedly better scrummagers. Plus better lineout stealers.

Lawes also had a strong tournament.

As good as Launchbury is, an English lock was inevitably going to miss out.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon perhaps you feel that way but I am sure some fans might have had Hartley in the squad.

Don't wanna say he hates Saints players but doesn't rate Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Harrison, Brookes...

robbo277 wrote:Marler, Mako, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, Te'o, Joseph, Daly, Nowell and Watson all unavaiable. That's 16, but doubling up on props, an extra lock and leaving us with our flankers.

Of those who featured heavily in the Six Nations and previously, Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Care, Ford, May and Brown are all available.

Right yeah turns out there was plenty of bum steers in the leaked squad but it was still broadly correct.
I doubt Jones expected to be missing Teo, and Mays selection was borderline. Whichever locks went there would be someone missing out, but Im surprised to see it being Lawes and Kruis who got the nod. Itoje was a no brainer but
People may well prefer George as a player but its still a big call to snub Hartley. Its just one of those things that can easily get thrown back in a coaches face down the line. Instead hes gone for experience and leaders through the rest of the squad. It may prove to be divisive to have both Welsh capatins in the side but lets see.

For England it leaves the anticipated issue of pretty much having to play Brown because of a complete lack of experience elsewhere in the outside backs when full back was the one position Jones might have wanted to experiment with. Losing his first 3 wings and first 3 OC is certainly A THING.

Lawes is good, had a strong tournament. Think he's having one of his best seasons and well deserves his Lions call up.

Scottrf Hartley had his best game for Saints this season.

I like Mallinder, Picamoles and North.

I did feel bad for Picamoles and Saints when he went off on the weekend.

Wood IMO is past his prime yes. Harrison actually was pretty good off the bench on the weekend, still doesn't mean I think he's good enough for England.

Brookes - jury still out.

Not you, Geordie.

Ok lets go through this then...

Brookes - Was unfit for us, even when we got him to his best...and is unfit for you guys. He cant play at the tempo Jones wants!

Harrison - Had one good season where he was scintillating...then hasn't been anywhere near that. Has looked woefully underpowered at international level.

Wood - Past it. He's a poor mans Robshaw, and a poor mans Croft

Lawes - I rate highly.

Hartley - I rate highly, I often argue with beshocked that he is a solid option at hooker for England . I just think the lions have better...and in the next 6 months, Jamie George will surpass Hartley as the starting hooker.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lawes - I rate highly.

Not that highly, you didn't think he should go to NZ, despite him probably being our best forward over the last year.

Best and Owens better than Hartley? Seriously gf?

Brookes is such a waste.

He came back from Tigers hugely out of shape. 2 seasons of work and he left to Saints as a serious unit, looked in great shape. A few seasons away and hes a big fat blob again! I have a feeling we may have fewer Nandos than the Midlands......

Launchbury has been better than Lawes but doesn't call the lineout.

Gooseberry wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Marler, Mako, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, Te'o, Joseph, Daly, Nowell and Watson all unavaiable. That's 16, but doubling up on props, an extra lock and leaving us with our flankers.

Of those who featured heavily in the Six Nations and previously, Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Care, Ford, May and Brown are all available.

Right yeah turns out there was plenty of bum steers in the leaked squad but it was still broadly correct.
I doubt Jones expected to be missing Teo, and Mays selection was borderline. Whichever locks went there would be someone missing out, but Im surprised to see it being Lawes and Kruis who got the nod. Itoje was a no brainer but
People may well prefer George as a player but its still a big call to snub Hartley. Its just one of those things that can easily get thrown back in a coaches face down the line. Instead hes gone for experience and leaders through the rest of the squad. It may prove to be divisive to have both Welsh capatins in the side but lets see.

For England it leaves the anticipated issue of pretty much having to play Brown because of a complete lack of experience elsewhere in the outside backs when full back was the one position Jones might have wanted to experiment with. Losing his first 3 wings and first 3 OC is certainly A THING.

I think it will depend on whether he wants Daly or Watson at full back long-term, or somewhere else (e.g. Haley).

He has the option in the latter scenario of playing Brown on the wing and Haley at full-back, which would be adequate on such a tour. With Daly, Watson and Nowell to come back we don't need to have a good look at new wingers, unless there's an outstanding candidate to check out (and I don't believe there is?)

The back-line I've just scribbled down is Care, Ford, Brown, Slade, Marchant, May, Haley, with Robson, Lozowksi and Wade on the bench. Certainly an option, would let us look at Slade, Marchant and Haley while giving an experienced core.

Best forward over the last year?

I have to disagree with that one. Kruis has been top class...and even ahead of the deity that is Itoje!

And I think Haskell and Robshaw have been ahead of him also.

My issue with Lawes is the lack of physicality in the tight. He reminds me of Croft...a player who excels just outside of the tight.

That's why I would always edge towards, Launchbury, Kruis and Itoje. Players I believe are more effective in the areas they are supposed to play in!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Launchbury has been better than Lawes but doesn't call the lineout.

Not in the Autumn, and barely in the 6 Nations.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Brookes is such a waste.

He came back from Tigers hugely out of shape. 2 seasons of work and he left to Saints as a serious unit, looked in great shape. A few seasons away and hes a big fat blob again! I have a feeling we may have fewer Nandos than the Midlands......

Agree and worse he's keeping Hill from developing.

I like Lawes but there's only a certain amount of time I can see locks being stripped by backs without losing g patience.

robbo277 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Marler, Mako, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, Te'o, Joseph, Daly, Nowell and Watson all unavaiable. That's 16, but doubling up on props, an extra lock and leaving us with our flankers.

Of those who featured heavily in the Six Nations and previously, Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Care, Ford, May and Brown are all available.

Right yeah turns out there was plenty of bum steers in the leaked squad but it was still broadly correct.
I doubt Jones expected to be missing Teo, and Mays selection was borderline. Whichever locks went there would be someone missing out, but Im surprised to see it being Lawes and Kruis who got the nod. Itoje was a no brainer but
People may well prefer George as a player but its still a big call to snub Hartley. Its just one of those things that can easily get thrown back in a coaches face down the line. Instead hes gone for experience and leaders through the rest of the squad. It may prove to be divisive to have both Welsh capatins in the side but lets see.

For England it leaves the anticipated issue of pretty much having to play Brown because of a complete lack of experience elsewhere in the outside backs when full back was the one position Jones might have wanted to experiment with. Losing his first 3 wings and first 3 OC is certainly A THING.

I think it will depend on whether he wants Daly or Watson at full back long-term, or somewhere else (e.g. Haley).

He has the option in the latter scenario of playing Brown on the wing and Haley at full-back, which would be adequate on such a tour. With Daly, Watson and Nowell to come back we don't need to have a good look at new wingers, unless there's an outstanding candidate to check out (and I don't believe there is?)

The back-line I've just scribbled down is Care, Ford, Brown, Slade, Marchant, May, Haley, with Robson, Lozowksi and Wade on the bench. Certainly an option, would let us look at Slade, Marchant and Haley while giving an experienced core.

Personaly I dont think Brown was a good enough wing to play wing back when he was getting picked as a wing in his prime because there was a better fullback (although I woudlve argued he wouldve made a wing than Brown did and vice versa) and a lack of decent wings available. Now according to OPINION Brown has lost a yard of pace I see him as even less of a wing than when he was a wing.

Either way its sub-optimal to be selecting Brown just because.

On a tour like this im not sure we need Brown for experience. having said that, Im sure he'll start, but Yarde, and May both have experience at this level, as does Ford and Care...and in the pack there will be some old heads.

I think Lawes has improved with all the competition for 2nd row spots, with so much competition he could have faded but he seems to have risen to the challenge. Sure yes he does occasionally get stripped of the ball when he shouldn't but none of the locks are perfect. Itoje still gives away too many penalties. Launchbury seems to leave the responsibility of calling to other players for England.

Launchbury is perhaps unfortunate not to be touring but one injury might well see him in the squad.

Brookes has been disappointing agreed.

Geordiefalcon do you seriously want to see a back three of Yarde,May,Brown?

Seems a bit lackluster to me.

Im expecting something like this one now...

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Brookes
4 Launchbury
5 Ewells
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell (Underhill getting plenty of game time)
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Yarde (Possibly Wade)
12 Slade
13 Marchant
14 May
15 Brown

Solomona, Wade, Haley?

Scottrf wrote:Solomona, Wade, Haley?

That's better yes.

beshocked wrote:

Geordiefalcon do you seriously want to see a back three of Yarde,May,Brown?

.

The question is who do you go with? Who is in the EPS....

May is an obvious starter. He's always around the main team.
Yarde - Not my favourite, but Jones has given him games. Unless he picks Roko, who he doesn't seem to rate. And then theres Wade?
Brown - Id prefer to see Haley given a run out.

Yes lets bring another mercenary in to the squad. Jolly good!

It's likely to be solomona may brown and haley on the bench ain't it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes lets bring another mercenary in to the squad. Jolly good!

He's exciting though. But did originally read if he wasn't capped in the 6N he would fall foul of the 5 year residency.