England tour to Argentina

by propdavid_london Wed 12 Apr 2017, 4:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent. Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Apr 2017, 10:34 am

3-4 players making teh step up from JWC squads is as said by others not a real problem, and perhaps the ideal amount. Looking at the most recent squads can perhaps also ignore that progress will not always be instantaneous.

Below is the 2008 JWC squad players in red are Lions tourists, those in bold have been capped for England and those in italics have had a decent AP career. Note all players are currently 28 or younger.

England U20 Forwards: Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie), James Clark (London Irish), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Matthew Cox (Worcester Warriors), Hugo Ellis (London Wasps), Jon Fisher (London Irish), Scott Freer (Leeds Carnegie), Gregor Gillanders (Leicester Tigers), Joe Gray (Northampton Saints), Scott Hobson (Cornish Pirates), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Billy Moss (Bath Rugby), Ben Thomas (Saracens)

England U20 Backs: Miles Benjamin (Worcester Warriors), Noah Cato (Saracens), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons), Mark Odejobi (London Wasps), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), Seb Stegmann (Harlequins), Alex Tait (Newcastle Falcons), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

by robbo277 Thu 27 Apr 2017, 10:49 am

LondonTiger wrote:3-4 players making teh step up from JWC squads is as said by others not a real problem, and perhaps the ideal amount. Looking at the most recent squads can perhaps also ignore that progress will not always be instantaneous.

Below is the 2008 JWC squad players in red are Lions tourists, those in bold have been capped for England and those in italics have had a decent AP career. Note all players are currently 28 or younger.

England U20 Forwards: Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie), James Clark (London Irish), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Matthew Cox (Worcester Warriors), Hugo Ellis (London Wasps), Jon Fisher (London Irish), Scott Freer (Leeds Carnegie), Gregor Gillanders (Leicester Tigers), Joe Gray (Northampton Saints), Scott Hobson (Cornish Pirates), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Billy Moss (Bath Rugby), Ben Thomas (Saracens)

England U20 Backs: Miles Benjamin (Worcester Warriors), Noah Cato (Saracens), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons), Mark Odejobi (London Wasps), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), Seb Stegmann (Harlequins), Alex Tait (Newcastle Falcons), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Is it my memory going bad, or was Hugo Ellis once tipped for big things? What happened to him?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Apr 2017, 10:56 am

Hugo Ellis was the skipper and tipped form a very young age for big things. He never managed to establish himself in the Wasps setup and moved to the dragons in 2010 (his father is Welsh and he played for Wales at U16s). Dragons released him after 2 years and I think he is now a banker and has played at Rosslyn Park

by Cumbrian Thu 27 Apr 2017, 10:59 am

Hugo and his younger brother were both tipped for big things, Hugo was captain right throughout the age grades. Back then I was convinced there was going to a Poopie for his services between England and Wales, especially considering how limited a choice England had at no.8 throughout this period. Just never kicked on I guess, play for Rosslyn Park now.

by Geordie Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:05 am

Theres a conveyor belt of players like him. Tipped for big things, fail to produce anything once they hit the seniors.

by Cumbrian Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:17 am

Alex Gray was another, was devastated when he left Falcons for Leicester, but he never put on the required bulk and sank like a stone.

by robbo277 Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:36 am

LondonTiger wrote:Hugo Ellis was the skipper and tipped form a very young age for big things. He never managed to establish himself in the Wasps setup and moved to the dragons in 2010 (his father is Welsh and he played for Wales at U16s). Dragons released him after 2 years and I think he is now a banker and has played at Rosslyn Park

Good info, thanks.

Between him and Alex Gray, does it always have to be an 8? Erm

The only other players I can think of being tipped really strongly during the dark years didn't make it through injury. Names I'm recalling are Richard Blaze, Tom Rees and Olly Morgan.

by Geordie Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:36 am

Easy to stand out in the Juniors.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:37 am

Cumbrian wrote:Alex Gray was another, was devastated when he left Falcons for Leicester, but he never put on the required bulk and sank like a stone.

He did not come to us.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:39 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Easy to stand out in the Juniors.

It can be - especially in positions where size can make a difference.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:42 am

Gray went to Irish.

by Geordie Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:43 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Alex Gray was another, was devastated when he left Falcons for Leicester, but he never put on the required bulk and sank like a stone.

He did not come to us.

He went to London Irish...his first mistake.

by Cyril Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:47 am

Has Jon Golding (the prop) been mentioned? He was tipped to be a full international around 2008-09 but only played underage and Saxons (I think).

Did he suffer badly with injuries?

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:52 am

Cyril wrote:Has Jon Golding (the prop) been mentioned? He was tipped to be a full international around 2008-09 but only played underage and Saxons (I think).

Did he suffer badly with injuries?

He suffered badly with Haymanitis.....i.e. He wasn't actually that good without Carl Hayman destroying the opposition LH.

by Cumbrian Thu 27 Apr 2017, 12:04 pm

Oops, maybe I just get used to make the link between our academy and Leicester!

by Poorfour Thu 27 Apr 2017, 4:13 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Easy to stand out in the Juniors.

It can be - especially in positions where size can make a difference.

Very true. It's easy to standout at junior levels by being a faster developer than those around you, and then get caught out when that doesn't work at senior level.

However, I think the English academy setup has improved quite a bit in that respect. There are more players coming through whose ability is rooted more in skill, attitude and reading of the game to which the physicality is almost the last component. I'd need to spend some time poring over teamsheets to be sure, but I am pretty certain that the proportion of JRWC squads coming through into the Senior England setup has gone up over the last 4 or 5 years.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Apr 2017, 4:38 pm

https://www.606v2.com/t65622-progression-from-u20s-to-full-cap

Only looked at those capped (other than for 2016 squad)

by Poorfour Thu 27 Apr 2017, 4:46 pm

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.606v2.com/t65622-progression-from-u20s-to-full-cap

Only looked at those capped (other than for 2016 squad)

Cheers, LT. So England are pretty consistently getting regular senior 3-5 internationals each year from the U20s. If they can keep that up, it's enough to stock the senior team on a consistent basis.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Apr 2017, 4:53 pm

And looking at the four year cycle through to the 2014 U20s squad we can see 12 guys who have or will tour with the Lions.

by Geordie Thu 27 Apr 2017, 6:28 pm

The critical point is bringing through players who are BETTER than the current incumbents!

by Geordie Thu 27 Apr 2017, 6:34 pm

Poorfour wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Easy to stand out in the Juniors.

It can be - especially in positions where size can make a difference.

Very true. It's easy to standout at junior levels by being a faster developer than those around you, and then get caught out when that doesn't work at senior level.

However, I think the English academy setup has improved quite a bit in that respect. There are more players coming through whose ability is rooted more in skill, attitude and reading of the game to which the physicality is almost the last component.

I agree, I think the focus has moved away from being the biggest and strongest at that level, and now the skills are improving rapidly. Size can be developed later.

Though I confess i do hope we get a few monstrous neanderthals through soon just to keep that physicality there Very Happy

by propdavid_london Fri 28 Apr 2017, 10:16 am

Harry Randall in the U20's is showing that size isn't everything - must admit that he is exceptionally small, not sure his frame will allow him to bulk up much more.

by Geordie Fri 28 Apr 2017, 10:36 am

Harry Thacker is a strong little lad.

Size is not everything, but I do think "some" beasts do help in a side and actually are essential.

NZ always have a nice blend / balance of physically huge blokes with astute skilled players.

by propdavid_london Fri 28 Apr 2017, 10:43 am

Agree GF, Look at the 6N match against France - lacking the Vaunipolas and big ball carriers we really struggled. Hughes showed real improvement towards the end of the tournament, but sometimes there is no substitute for the bigger lads that could truck it up and match physicality with more physicality.
Missing a fit and firing Haskell was also an issue of the 6N.

Every now and again you need someone to go into 'beast' mode - not sure which of the newer tour party members can offer that!
(Genge, Harry Williams, Solomona, Cockanasinga)

by propdavid_london Fri 28 Apr 2017, 10:46 am

Cumbrian wrote:Alex Gray was another, was devastated when he left Falcons for Leicester, but he never put on the required bulk and sank like a stone.

Was involved in 7s for a while too wasn't he?

by Geordie Fri 28 Apr 2017, 11:50 am

Genge can offer that quite considerably Prop London. He's an animal at times!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d2corArBKM
Yes Farrell wasn't in the best of positions...however....

And Harry Williams is a huge guy, not sure if he goes "beast mode "mind.

by Big Fri 28 Apr 2017, 12:06 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
NZ always have a nice blend / balance of physically huge blokes with astute skilled players.

Absolutely, it's always good to have players who can make holes, either by smashing through or simply due to the threat of them doing it, and players who can get through the resultant gaps. At the moment we could perhaps do with 1 or 2 more hole makers, to balance things out a bit.

by king_carlos Fri 28 Apr 2017, 11:22 pm

propdavid_london wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Alex Gray was another, was devastated when he left Falcons for Leicester, but he never put on the required bulk and sank like a stone.
Was involved in 7s for a while too wasn't he?

He's been playing centre for Yorkshire a bit this season in the Championship. Apparently he's done alright as well. Sadly it's probably too late for him to make good on his talent though.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 29 Apr 2017, 3:41 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Alex Gray was another, was devastated when he left Falcons for Leicester, but he never put on the required bulk and sank like a stone.

He did not come to us.

He went to London Irish...his first mistake.

Very much so. At Tigers he'd have gone through the Cockers forward finishing school which would have toughened him up and given him a chance. Staying at Falcons would have also been a better shout.

Prop David, Genge doesn't occasionally go into beast mode it's the factory setting.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 29 Apr 2017, 7:25 pm

First time I have seen Solomona in the flesh today. Poor first impression.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 29 Apr 2017, 7:32 pm

What was up with him? Always looked a class above when I've seen him admittedly on TV. Off to see cokanasiga tomorrow.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 29 Apr 2017, 8:35 pm

He had a couple of chances to run with space and looked short of pace. Did not seem to come off was wing much looking for work, but when he did dropped the ball. One nice offload, but other than that not too much in attack. Positioning in defence was still a work in progress.

I know he has been much better than this, but today was poor.

by majesticimperialman Sat 29 Apr 2017, 9:40 pm

LondonTiger wrote:He had a couple of chances to run with space and looked short of pace. Did not seem to come off was wing much looking for work, but when he did dropped the ball. One nice offload, but other than that not too much in attack. Positioning in defence was still a work in progress.

I know he has been much better than this, but today was poor.

Every body as a off day.

by Geordie Mon 01 May 2017, 12:07 am

Jack Nowell was class this weekend.... Lions starter?

by Geordie Tue 02 May 2017, 11:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What was up with him? Always looked a class above when I've seen him admittedly on TV. Off to see cokanasiga tomorrow.

How did he look 7.5?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 11:36 am

Ok.didn't get much ball. When he did in the first half in a bit of space ran straight at the defender. Got stepped slightly easily early in the 2nd but chased back well and made the tackle. Didn't do anything g wrong really. Not a say to make any huge judgement. Every time he was near to getting a pass though you could hear the excitement from irish fans. Speak g to a few of them and they rate him highly.

by Geordie Tue 02 May 2017, 12:35 pm

Ah well he's young and rough around the edges.

Jones has his established wings at the moment...this tour is to identify new options,...and different ones to the ones we have. Cokanasiga has size which the rest don't.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 08 May 2017, 7:14 am

Jason woodward joins the party. One for you I feel geordie.

by propdavid_london Mon 08 May 2017, 8:57 am

Saw that Yarde and Buchannan are with the squad for S&C training weekend.

by propdavid_london Mon 08 May 2017, 9:01 am

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/bristol-rugby-career-comes-end-48069
Had no idea that Woodward was EQ. He was certainly Bristols stay player and made things happen while on the pitch.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 08 May 2017, 9:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jason woodward joins the party. One for you I feel geordie.

He has not joined the Argentina tour party has he?

He is in a training squad this week though, qualified courtesy of an English born granny.

England squad for this week’s training camp: Backs – M Brown (Harlequins), J Woodward (Bristol), M Haley (Sale), D Solomona (Sale), P Humphreys (Worcester), M Yarde (Harlequins), S James (Sale), J Marchant (Harlequins), R Mills (Worcester), G Ford (Bath), D Care (Harlequins); Forwards – W Collier (Harlequins), R Harrison (Sale), R Buchanan (Harlequins), C Ewels (Bath), T Ellis (Bath), W Spencer (Worcester), B Curry (Sale), T Curry (Sale), C Robshaw (Harlequins).

This party meets for 3 days, from today. The emphasis in the camp will be on strength and conditioning rather than rugby.

by Guest Mon 08 May 2017, 9:20 am

Can't help but feel I do this every time like a broken record. But Jason Woodward is pants. As is Jimmy Goperth. The fact these guys make a splash up north is bemusing.

by propdavid_london Mon 08 May 2017, 9:27 am

He looked pretty good in a largely poor Bristol side........
But so did Matt Kvesic when he was playing for Worcester.

He is in the training squad......Gym sessions (S&C) so they are just having a look at him.

by Guest Mon 08 May 2017, 9:30 am

Picking his brains probably

So Jason, how did you train at the SR championship side the Hurricanes. Is that right Jason? Thanks mate. You're excused.

Same as Francis

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 08 May 2017, 9:57 am

Woodward has looked very good one when I've seen him. Sometimes a change of scenery helps a player and the different style of play can suit.

Look at some of the opposites.....Matt Symons was outstanding for the Chiefs partnered with Retallick, he's been extremely average over here, struggling to get a start for Wasps. Similar with Piers Francis who was tripe for Edinburgh and has gone to shine at the Blues.

by Geordie Mon 08 May 2017, 9:59 am

Ah you have got to be joking...Woodward!!!

Genuinely taking the P1SS now!!!

by Geordie Mon 08 May 2017, 10:00 am

How do you qualify for the England rugby team these days?

You need an Aussie / Kiwi / Polynesian accent mate!

by beshocked Mon 08 May 2017, 10:14 am

Perhaps the England coaches mistakenly believe he's the son of Clive....

Plus he suits the current England well.... we have NZ captain afterall.... Whistle

by propdavid_london Mon 08 May 2017, 11:07 am

Not for long Beshocked

by Geordie Mon 08 May 2017, 1:28 pm

Yeah ill be curious to see how long Hartley has that Captaincy and 2 spot after the summer tour....

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