England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

To be fair 2nd row is very competitive and inevitably there would be at least one good English lock not touring.

Plus Launchbury isn't a lineout caller, lacks a bit of versatility.

Centres on the other hand - Joseph seems very unlucky, his 6 nations form bar Scotland game wasn't great.

Whenever a centre is up against Jonathan Davies with Gatland selecting it is a tough ask though...

Well if JJ doesn't go...its obvious JD will start at 13.

Thacker is a long way from being an England player, not even first choice at Tigers so would hope we have better options.

So we can tweak our team:

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 ?? (Hill, Brookes, A.N.Other??)
4 Launchbury
5 Ewells
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May / Yarde
12 ??
13 Joseph
14 Nowell
15 Brown

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Thacker is a long way from being an England player, not even first choice at Tigers so would hope we have better options.

Ah I agree, just saying if he specialises at 7 he will have a chance. But he has VERY tough competition.

LondonTiger wrote:We missed Balmain around, especially in the first half of last season when he was having to play TH and LH. It all means he has not progressed as much as he could. If he gets gametime at TH at Glaws he could easily develop into a really good club player, and someone who could easily be considered for future tour like  this. Right now though, probably not ready, but would not let us down if touring as covered.

What does this mean?

This isn't a dig at you LondonTiger, it's a pretty well trodden phrase.

I often see this in relation to people touting one player over another player, usually their favourites. Again, I know that's now what you are doing here LondonTiger.

I ask because in the context of the question, is so and so good enough? What does "He won't let you down" mean? Is it a "yes, he's good enough", or is it more of a "no, not really. But he's not terrible".

Sinckler's potential selection seems to have highlighted a bit of a problem in our tight head stocks. Not only have we not got an experienced 3rd choice (given that people seem to be dismissing Wilson), we also don't seem to have youngsters coming through that people are championing for some test exposure.

As a TH prop Balmain is pretty good. Will never be good enough to push for the England team at full strength, but is a solid enough scrummager and decent carrier of the ball. So good enough to be a 5th choice consideration, but no more.

Brookes isn't the answer, that's clear.
Hill is still very young.
D. Wilson is just past it now, sadly.
S.Wilson is seemingly made of glass, injury prone.com!
Sinkler - Apparently off to NZ
Henry Thomas - Is he injured?
Balmain - If he's fit ...he may have a chance at starting!
Collier - Possibility...


Also...with relation to LH...whats happened with Auterac? He was the next deity in line for a while...

Auterac still injured.

Jake Cooper Wooley?

Both Auterac and Henry Thomas have written off this season. Given the current England scrum coach, would expect both plus Catt and even Lahiff to be on the selection radar - for next next season.

Well, looking for EQP props through the premiership with premiership starts this season (LHs before THs - if I get that correct):

Wasps: Mullan 14, McIntyre 5, Swainston 3, Cooper-Woolley 6
Exeter: Moon 14, Rimmer 3, Williams 9
Saracens: Mako 11, Barrington 6, du Plessis 7
Leicester: Genge 12, Cole 10, Bateman 7
Bath: Catt 16, Auterac 3, Lahiff 9, Thomas 6
Northampton: Waller 20, Brookes 19, Hill 1
Quins: Marler 9, Lambert 6, Collier 9, Sinckler 7
Gloucester: PDJ 2
Newcastle: Vickers 16, Davy Wilson 6
Sale: Harrison 15
Worcester: Rapava-Ruskin(*) 14, Bwer 5, Alo 1
Bristol: Ford-Robinson 2


Now I may have missed some, especially if playing for lower in the league teams, but think that is it.
* Not sure on Rapava-Ruskin and EQP. Moved to England aged 2, but spent time at Toulon after leaving Sarries and before joining Worcester. He may of course have an English parent/grandparent.

So Brookes looks most likely for TH going on those starts...and Bobby Vickers at LH...ha ha ha...

If Kruis and Lawes both go then Jones has a interesting decision to make for line-out locks.

Ewels has called the line-out for Bath I believe? He certainly isn't their go to in that department when Charteris and Attwood are available.

James Craig was in the last Saxons squad. Does he call the Saints line-out in Lawes absence?

Barrow is in good form but not a line-out forward. He's the sort of aggressive tight 5 forward that Jones likes though so he could travel.

Matt Symons hasn't had a glittering time in the Prem after arriving to much acclaim but he is talented and a good line-out caller.

Kyran Myall has been around the Saxons before but not under Jones and he's 30.

Mitch Lees has been around EJs squads before but isn't a line-out forward.

Kitchener is an excellent line-out forward but has largely been overlooked for England by successive coaches.

Sean Robinson once outplayed Itoje I hear... 

Taught him a lesson in lock play KC

On a side note, does a lock have to call the lineouts? Can Robshaw or someone not call them?

When it comes to Ewels what might be forgotten is that he is not yet 22 and still has some maturing to do, both physically and mentally. He formed a very successful partnership with Attwood last summer when they won the tour series down in South Africa. Those two plus (amazingly) Launchbury will be the test locks against Argentina, would be my guess.

Surprised Symons hasn't made a greater impact given the plaudits he was getting from his time in nz.

Attwood has yet to play a game in 2017 (what is the injury?). Makes it hard for ones to name him on Thursday really.

So Ewells and Launchbury in Argentina.

Attwood is about to come back if the medical reports are to be believed.
Attwood has been unlucky with injuries over the last two years. In the 2015 6N Cardiff game, when everyone was panicking because Lawes & Launchbury were injured. Attwood and a rookie called George Kruis battered their much vaunted British Lion counterparts and Jonathan Joseph's footwork did the rest.

Oh, no doubting his ability and of course having featured (just) in the AIs he should be in Jones thoughts. However it is still a big risk to name a guy in the squad who has not played since New Year's Eve.

Well Kruis has been out a good while and it looks like he's heading to NZ....over a guy who got 3 MOM awards in 5 games!

Aye, but Kruis did actually play before the squad is announced. And of course he has the bonus of being supported by Borthwick in the selection meetings.

He does, but should Launchbury not have the same support from Borthwick?

So the Argentina tour squad will be named on Thursday?

Kruis is one of the best lineout looks going. I don't think we stole one opp ball during the 6N did we? We were stealing a few a game with Kruis/Itoje.

GeordieFalcon wrote:He does, but should Launchbury not have the same support from Borthwick?

Yeah but Borthwick prefers Kruis.

propdavid_london wrote:So the Argentina tour squad will be named on Thursday?

Aye

I said elsewhere, assuming we'd be missing a few players to the Lions:

My choices:
(for players that I think won't tour with the Lions but could do with a rest, I'm torn between taking them to Argentina as experience with the squad and safe back up options, or properly resting them. Here I've gone for taking a risk and resting Robbo, Hask and Brown and Youngs, though bracketed them)
1: we are going to lose Mako and maybe Marler - (Marler), Mullan, Genge (Catt if we lose Marler)
2: Lose Hartley and maybe George - (George), Taylor, LCD (tricky if George goes, maybe even Thacker?!)
3: Lose Cole (and MAYBE Sinckler, but only because Mako went last time in a similar position) - Sinckler, Brookes, Hill (if Sinckler goes, then Cooper-Wooley)
Locks: Lose at least 2, likely Launch and Itoje, very possibly a third as well (I'd guess Kruis): (Kruis, Lawes), Ewels, Attwood, Beaumont (spare if we need it, Slater)
Backrow: lose Billy, rest Robshaw and Hask? - (Robshaw, Haskell?), Hughes, Clifford, Harrison, Ewers, Kvesic, UNderhill (+ M Williams)
9: Rest YOungs + maybe Care - (Care, Youngs?), Robson (+Simpson, ?Spencer)
10: lose Farrell and ?Ford - (Ford), Cipriani, Lozowski (Slade as a centre)
Centres: Lose JJ, lose Daly (and Farrell) - Slade, Teo, Manu, Marchant/Tompkins, Mallinder 
Wings: Lose Watson (and Daly), ?lose Nowell - (Nowell), May, Roko, Wade 
FB: rest Brown - (Brown), Haley, Pennell

Looking at things, we keep JJ and lose Teo so swap those 2. Clifford is out.

GeordieFalcon wrote:On a side note, does a lock have to call the lineouts? Can Robshaw or someone not call them?

There's no reason it has to be a lock of course. With how modern line-out calls work it realistically needs to be a primary jumper though.

Line-out 'calls' these days often consist of a first call being made prior to the line-out forming (often in a huddle) in which the line-out leader will make a 'call' which gives several options. Then he will make a call when the line-out forms which chooses one of those options. Then there are 'trigger calls' for timing to allow movement to work. Then there are 'snap' or 'speed' calls which mean a jumper isn't marked so he's just going straight up.

It's a system that really requires your key jumper to call in order for it to work most smoothly.

The increase in video analysis means that the opposition basically knows a teams line-out before the game. Hence more and more calls have been included to keep the defensive side guessing. With how powerful a strong maul is those options are even more important. Where a jumper takes the ball in the line-out hugely affects how hard the maul is to defend.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Kruis is one of the best lineout looks going. I don't think we stole one opp ball during the 6N did we? We were stealing a few a game with Kruis/Itoje.

We also got a bit of a lesson in Dublin at the lineout and that was with three locks in the pack. The difference between having a lineout general and a good jumper is more noticeable the better the opposition. One of the reasons the squad of 2003 talk up Ben Kay whilst many overlook him as a squad man.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Kruis is one of the best lineout looks going. I don't think we stole one opp ball during the 6N did we? We were stealing a few a game with Kruis/Itoje.

We also got a bit of a lesson in Dublin at the lineout and that was with three locks in the pack. The difference between having a lineout general and a good jumper is more noticeable the better the opposition. One of the reasons the squad of 2003 talk up Ben Kay whilst many overlook him as a squad man.

I think that's why Kruis is so highly regarded. He's one of the best setpiece operators around and no slouch around the park - a modern day Kay.

And in Dublin, we had three locks and two back rows not noted for their lineout work. It needed someone astute enough to tidy up when things went wrong.

Unless someone really will benefit from a summer off and a proper pre-season then hopefully we can send a very strong side to Argentina. Many of the players will be hoping for the injury summons to NZ but in the meantime they will all have the opportunity to lay down a marker for their England spots. Robshaw, Hartley, Haskell, Launchbury, JJ, Brown etc will all have points to prove and I hope they seize the moment.

Based on the current assumptions from the press on who is going to NZ, my squad would look something like:

Starters:
Genge, Hartley (c), Brookes, Launchbury, Ewells, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes, Care, Ford, May, Slade, JJ, Nowell, Haley

Finishers:
Taylor, Mullan, Hill, Attwood (if fit), Harrison, Robson, Lozowski, Yarde

Squad Members:
Catt, LCD, ANO TH, Barrow, Wilson, Chisholm, Wray, Simpson, Tompkins, Marchant, James, Wade, Mallinder


Omitted due to:

Being Rested: Haskell, Brown
U20s: Everyone qualified (including Mercer)


Unlucky:
Roku - just feel his chance has gone and while he is an attacking threat, there are wingers in that squad who are either more attacking or more rounded.
Cipriani - agree with Jones, do not feel he is cut out to be 3rd choice on a tour like this.

LondonTiger wrote:Based on the current assumptions from the press on who is going to NZ, my squad would look something like:

Starters:
Genge, Hartley (c), Brookes, Launchbury, Ewells, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes, Care, Ford, May, Slade, JJ, Nowell, Haley

Finishers:
Taylor, Mullan, Hill, Attwood (if fit), Harrison, Robson, Lozowski, Yarde

Squad Members:
Catt, LCD, ANO TH, Barrow, Wilson, Chisholm, Wray, Simpson, Tompkins, Marchant, James, Wade, Mallinder


Omitted due to:

Being Rested: Haskell, Brown
U20s: Everyone qualified (including Mercer)


Unlucky:
Roku - just feel his chance has gone and while he is an attacking threat, there are wingers in that squad who are either more attacking or more rounded.
Cipriani - agree with Jones, do not feel he is cut out to be 3rd choice on a tour like this.

It's not a bad effort and while I don't watch enough club rugby to appraise every selection, I think Yarde over Roko is a strange one for me. I'd also be tempted to give Wade the bench spot, but that's more because of nagging curiosity about whether he could have been our Shane Williams.

I'd agree with not taking any Under 20s and I think picking former under-20s in the squad is better than picking players like Wood, who may be the next best options but aren't even medium-term options.

I would rest Hartley, Robshaw and Launchbury.

We have plenty of depth in the 2nd row but will have to dig deeper for both front and back - which is exactly what Jones should be doing on this tour.

My feeling is that with the squad losing their four props and three locks we need some experience in the pack. Leaving out all the experienced guys would leave us with a very raw pack that could be in serious trouble should Argentina be picking their strongest side.

kingelderfield wrote:I would rest Hartley, Robshaw and Launchbury.

We have plenty of depth in the 2nd row but will have to dig deeper for both front and back - which is exactly what Jones should be doing on this tour.

Why does Hartley need rest? Played probably the equivalent of 10 games this year.

All things considered it's a very strong side we can send out despite the potential number of Lions call ups, and a few just needing a rest.  Pretty pleased really, and looking forward to watching it.

I'm not going to be inflammatory and put this comment on a Lions thread - but frankly I lost interest 16 years ago. I just don't think it works in the pro era, I'll want them to win and will keep half an eye on results - but no more than that.  I am however looking forward to how our back up players do against a potentially quite good Argentina side - and I'm hoping some of the players really step up and give Eddie some selection headaches. Slade being an obvious one hoping to make a mark, and with my Tigers hat on I have to say that Genge is starting to look really special. Guys like JJ and Nowell might also feel they have a point to prove as well.

I like the team above, but would also be tempted to include Wade on the bench.  I think he is the right kind of player to give a run against Argentina, if the object is first and foremost to win.  Being blunt (and perhaps naive) I'm not too worried about Argentina testing our defence out wide (not that they can't get the ball out there, but rather that from what I've seen they tend to run from deep and not do much to hold the defence in the midfield - so I'd expect us to be able to cover it without leaving the wingers exposed), but with ball in hand I think we can test their defence and that given that opportunity as the Argentinians start to get tired Wade would probably do a lot of damage.

Makes sense Big re Wade.

I amy also be at risk of being sucked into the Jones selection policy of one flier and one trier. Of course should Nowell be in NZ we could start with MAy and Wade - which really would have attacking potentila, especially with JJ's footwork, Slade's hands, Ford's timing etc.

robbo277 wrote: I'd also be tempted to give Wade the bench spot, but that's more because of nagging curiosity about whether he could have been our Shane Williams.

Williams could tackle.

The only senior one I would have a question mark over is Haskell. There seems to be suggestions his toe is an issue.

If its not, he travels, but if there is an issue I would tell him to have the summer getting it right and focus on Underhill or A.N.Other.

You'll still have Robshaw and Hughes at 6 and 8.

Big wrote:All things considered it's a very strong side we can send out despite the potential number of Lions call ups, and a few just needing a rest.  Pretty pleased really, and looking forward to watching it.

I'm not going to be inflammatory and put this comment on a Lions thread - but frankly I lost interest 16 years ago. I just don't think it works in the pro era, I'll want them to win and will keep half an eye on results - but no more than that.  I am however looking forward to how our back up players do against a potentially quite good Argentina side - and I'm hoping some of the players really step up and give Eddie some selection headaches.  Slade being an obvious one hoping to make a mark, and with my Tigers hat on I have to say that Genge is starting to look really special.  Guys like JJ and Nowell might also feel they have a point to prove as well.

I like the team above, but would also be tempted to include Wade on the bench.  I think he is the right kind of player to give a run against Argentina, if the object is first and foremost to win.  Being blunt (and perhaps naive) I'm not too worried about Argentina testing our defence out wide (not that they can't get the ball out there, but rather that from what I've seen they tend to run from deep and not do much to hold the defence in the midfield - so I'd expect us to be able to cover it without leaving the wingers exposed), but with ball in hand I think we can test their defence and that given that opportunity as the Argentinians start to get tired Wade would probably do a lot of damage.

We defended against Argentina with one winger in the Autumn. Wade has to be better than literally no-one.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

robbo277 wrote: I'd also be tempted to give Wade the bench spot, but that's more because of nagging curiosity about whether he could have been our Shane Williams.

Williams could tackle.

True, but it wasn't his strong suit. He got a stadium onto their edge of their seats every time he caught the ball.

How was Williams tackling when he first came in? Or was he thrown in because of his attacking and learnt to tackle on the job? Surely international coaches should be able to improve his defence?

Can Paul Gustard not work out a defensive tactic for Wade. Im sure he could.

Is jones likely to want to blood 2 wingers ? I'd suspect that may and Yarde will go so probably not enough game time for wade anyway. I left out the guy who will be blooded just for you gf!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Can Paul Gustard not work out a defensive tactic for Wade. Im sure he could.

Put him up againt Argentina who are rubbish. That shoudl work fairly well.

LondonTiger wrote:Makes sense Big re Wade.

I amy also be at risk of being sucked into the Jones selection policy of one flier and one trier. Of course should Nowell be in NZ we could start with MAy and Wade - which really would have attacking potentila, especially with JJ's footwork, Slade's hands, Ford's timing etc.

Nowell is being rumoured as a Lion.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Can Paul Gustard not work out a defensive tactic for Wade. Im sure he could.

He's not going to make him taller. At almost 26, is Wade ever going to improve in defence?

Is the tour just 2 tests or are there other fixtures scheduled?