Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

He came across very poor as did fellow lib Clegg with his constant sniping at the Brexit issue.
Good riddance to both.Libs may well be a non entity now.
Tories have to proceed with caution now and build up some confidence again.

Our fire guy at work is telling us today that they really should have gone for a full evacuation at an early stage but that runs right against all previous policy putting residents and fire staff in potentially greater danger.In Blackadder terms it would have been going 'over the top'

[kwinigolfer]

Aberdeen down the St.Johnstone & Rangers drain.
Does winning the fights help the Scots' coefficient rating?
Hope Celtic can do something to redeem Scottish fitbal.

[I'm never wrong]

I remember watching Limassol when I was a kid in Cyprus. Sat on a wicker type dining chair to watch the match. Happy days.

[kwinigolfer]

I remember watching Limassol when I was a kid in Cyprus.  Sat on a wicker type dining chair to watch the match. Happy days.

I lived in Limassol also, different generation though. Listened to Laker's 19 wickets at Old Trafford on a crackly old radio! Idyllic childhood.

[super_realist]

[quote="Davie"]I fully expect Delli Belli to go to Real or Barca in the next 12 months for £100m plus. Bookmark this thread so you can apologize when it happens[/quote
Can't see it, British players have a habit of not being able to transition and get "homesick".

Why would you risk £100m when you can get a Spaniard, French or Italian for less?

[super_realist]

Aberdeen down the St.Johnstone & Rangers drain.
Does winning the fights help the Scots' coefficient rating?
Hope Celtic can do something to redeem Scottish fitbal.

The only solution I can see is Scottish Football going to summer football like Norway, Denmark and Sweden. Those teams are better prepared for qualifying.
I've no idea why Scottish football teams want to play in winter anyway. I've been at Pittodrie on a December night and it's ghastly.

[Be_the_ball]

400 acid attacks in UK, just up to April?!?!

Total s(um bags. Is there a more vile and cowardly way to assault someone?

[wiretapper]

The only solution I can see is Scottish Football going to summer football like Norway, Denmark and Sweden. Those teams are better prepared for qualifying.
I've no idea why Scottish football teams want to play in winter anyway. I've been at Pittodrie on a December night and it's ghastly.

I agree super although I am not sure how much difference it will make. European football is very much geared towards the bigger clubs and with the new qualification rules coming in next season it will be even more difficult to qualify for group stages.

The arguement I used to have against the switch was that bigger name players wouldn't want to play in a league that doesn't run 'traditionally.' Now we can no longer afford them even if they wanted to come, which is unlikely.

The negative effect from the doomed setanta deal still echoes throughout Scottish football

[beninho]

You know that Celtic beat the Norwegian champions in qualifying for the Champions league, and the swedish champions got knocked out by a team from Macedonia. Fc Cophenhagen have beaten the Macedonian team though.

[wiretapper]

Yeah I know but Celtic were poor at home to Rosenburg and were lucky to escape with a 0-0. They were much better away but even then only managed a 1-0.

From next season the Champion's route to qualifying is no longer there so the quality of opposition they come up against, particularly in the final round will be much tougher.

Oh yeah and Rangers lost to Luxembourg part-timers and Aberdeen to the third best Cypriot team. If Rangers in particular had played their match with a more settled team I don't doubt they would have won.

[Diggers]

Just home from watching Mo win the 10,000 in London. Back tomorrow to hopefully see Bolt win his swan song. Cracking atmosphere, actually felt a bit sorry for Gatlin being booed, I'm no fan of his but the same crowd had cheered other athletes who have served bans, bit of ignorance coming into play really.

[kwinigolfer]

Good on yer Digs.
But must have been a tough call not watching Cattermole leading out your boys.

Enjoy tomorrow.
I also have a change of sport for a few days next week, looking forward to that.

[Diggers]

I'm ashamed to say I didn't even know we were playing tonight Kwini.
Took my girls to the champs, think the 8 year old enjoyed it (a very useful sprinter herself) but the 5 year old seemed more circumspect!

[kwinigolfer]

I miss those days, Digs . . . . . . my 29-y-o is now having a blast doing all those things I thought she might appreciate 20 years ago. It takes time!

[Diggers]

Yeah I love the age they are right now Kwini, lots of fun, though a tad tiring at times. We are off to Oz on Wednesday to see friends and family for 3 weeks. Hopefully a lot of great memories to be made, even including me playing golf in Perth, nice pass from Mrs Digs.

[kwinigolfer]

Enjoy them while you can . . . . . . . . I don't age (of course) but they grow up fast.

[super_realist]

The only solution I can see is Scottish Football going to summer football like Norway, Denmark and Sweden. Those teams are better prepared for qualifying.
I've no idea why Scottish football teams want to play in winter anyway. I've been at Pittodrie on a December night and it's ghastly.

I agree super although I am not sure how much difference it will make. European football is very much geared towards the bigger clubs and with the new qualification rules coming in next season it will be even more difficult to qualify for group stages.

The arguement I used to have against the switch was that bigger name players wouldn't want to play in a league that doesn't run 'traditionally.' Now we can no longer afford them even if they wanted to come, which is unlikely.

The negative effect from the doomed setanta deal still echoes throughout Scottish football

Not just that Wire, The likes of Aberdeen, Rangers and St.Johnstone were put out by teams from Cyprus and bloody Luxumbourg part timers.

No one expects them to get to latter stages of a tournament proper, we're well aware they'd be getting smashed by French, Dutch, Spanish, English teams etc should they make it to the Europa League, but when you can't even get past the first round of qualification and with Celtic barely getting past a team from Trondheim in the north of Norway in the Champions League qualifier then there is blatantly much room for improvement.

Celtic and Rangers have been put out by some very ordinary teams in recent years. This is their new level. At least summer football might give them a chance of beating Maribor, Malmo, Braga, Artmedia Bratislava etc and getting at least one round further before going out to Brondy, AIK Stockholm, FC Copenhagen, Lille or Heerenveen.

There are no "big name" players in the Scottish League, so I'm not sure why that would be an issue to the "traditional season". Scotland would only ever get the likes of busted flushes like Bentdner who plays in Norway anyway. The days of Flo, Laudrup and Larsson will never return.

I wouldn't blame Setanta as such, I'd blame it being a product no one wants to watch on tv. The standard even back in those days is dreadful and one thing that people ignore is the camera positions in the crappy stadiums made it a terrible product to view. It was like watching a sunday league game from a flat window.
Why would you choose to watch Hamilton v Dundee when you have the German, Italian, Spanish and English leagues to watch?

[dynamark]

Re the sprints I saw a list earlier of the top 25 or so best ever times and if you strike out the guys who have drugs bans only bolt remains with about 10 of the 25.
he looks like the perfect sprinter a bit like Carl Lewis but I think he got into trouble.
I'm afraid that all cycling and athletics will sadly be viewed with drugs in mind.

[beninho]

The people in the crowd that Booed Gatlin are morons, unless they booed Baptiste in the womens 100m final, and everyone else that has had a ban at some point. Eeven Yohan Blake has had a previous ban.

[McLaren]

The people in the crowd that Booed Gatlin are morons, unless they booed Baptiste in the womens 100m final, and everyone else that has had a ban at some point. Eeven Yohan Blake has had a previous ban.

Like Mo taking meds from Salazar or Ohuruogu skipping doping tests?

[beninho]

While I would like to have full faith that Mo become the athlete he is through hard work, I always have the nagging doubt. Maybe thats just what athletics has done to me over the years. Used to be a big fan, not so much anymore.

[McLaren]

If Mo were from another country I think the GB athletics fan would have quickly placed a massive question mark over his achievements.

[raycastleunited]

The people in the crowd that Booed Gatlin are morons, unless they booed Baptiste in the womens 100m final, and everyone else that has had a ban at some point. Eeven Yohan Blake has had a previous ban.

I think it's the fact he got done twice which leaves the sour taste. Typically, I'd say most people deserve a second chance, but Gatlin just went and found another way to cheat.

If I was in the stadium I think I would have booed him too.

[Diggers]

No evidence to back up Mo taking any meds, until there is then he deserves credit, just the same as Bolt.
If you looked at CO's missed tests you will see that random testing was flawed, a lot of athletes missed 2 tests and could have easily have been in the same boat. UK athletics tests way more than other governing bodies, for example Mo will have been tested far more often than Ayana who won the women's 10k, CO was tested during her missed test period and was clean. From athletics forums I read involving coaches and athletes no one thinks CO doped, she is the epitome of a clean athlete.
I think on the whole GB athletics is very clean in comparison to the rest of the world.

[McLaren]

Diggers

Is there a useful distinction to be made between a positive test and a missed test given that missed tests undermine the ability to claim the sport is actually clean?

[Diggers]

I get that, what I'm saying is that it's accepted the UKA testing system was badly flawed and has since been massively changed. At CO's hearing it was made clear that in no way was there any implication of doping.

[raycastleunited]

England... have this ridiculous assumption that because they've been to two semi finals that this is the level they ought to be at every tournament. Nothing could be further from the truth and it is this false opinion that they are a top team and that they should be getting to this level which is their undoing.

Honestly Super, where do you get this stuff from? In football terms, England is a major country, with a large fan base, a "big" league, and lots of clubs producing lots of players. Given the deep talent pool and infrastructure in place, England SHOULD be contending at every major tournament, like France, Spain and Italy.

The quality of the actual squad goes through cycles. The current squad is poor - everyone recognises this, nobody was predicting England to win Euro 2016 (they still should have beaten Iceland though). In the previous decade (always feels weird calling it the 00's) there was enough talent in the squad to contend, I believe the generation that hammered Germany 5-1 in Munich under achieved.

No other country thinks they have this right to be considered a top team when they ought to be realising they are makeweight.

Really? Because I think every other country which has had success expects this. Spain had this golden generation from 2008 - 2014, an outstanding period of wonderful football, but before that they did nothing for decades. They won Euros in 1964, then never went further than the quarter finals in either Euros or World Cup until 2008. Do you think when Spain went out in the group stage of Euro 2004, all the Spanish media and fans said: "we're just a make weight, this is where we belong, winning Euro 64 was a fluke, it was over 40 years ago, we're not a top side, the last 40 years are proof of this etc etc?" Or do you think there was national anguish at yet another failure, because the fans perceive Spain to be a top nation and should be contending, even though (at the time) they hadn't come remotely close to winning anything for 40 years? I know a lot of Spanish people and lived in Spain (pre-2008 generation) and I can tell you the expectations are no different from England.

What about the Netherlands, they failed to qualify for Euro 2016, aren't doing a very good job of qualifying for the World cup next year. Do you think the Dutch now consider themselves as also-rans? Or do they focus on the numerous times they have got to semi's and finals?

[Diggers]

The people in the crowd that Booed Gatlin are morons, unless they booed Baptiste in the womens 100m final, and everyone else that has had a ban at some point. Eeven Yohan Blake has had a previous ban.

I think it's the fact he got done twice which leaves the sour taste. Typically, I'd say most people deserve a second chance, but Gatlin just went and found another way to cheat.

If I was in the stadium I think I would have booed him too.

I was there and didn't like the booing, felt wrong. I'd have settled for a very subdued applause, kind of like he got for his medal ceremony.
I agree it's the fact he's been banned twice that is an issue, howevI doubt most of the crowd are aware of his banning history details. They do however know he is the bogeymen because the press keep telling them that.
I'n the woman's final there was a competitor with two bans, but as they weren't up against a global icon and weren't likely to get a medal, they got cheered (basically the press hadn't told them that she is evil and should have been booed).

[super_realist]

England... have this ridiculous assumption that because they've been to two semi finals that this is the level they ought to be at every tournament. Nothing could be further from the truth and it is this false opinion that they are a top team and that they should be getting to this level which is their undoing.

Honestly Super, where do you get this stuff from? In football terms, England is a major country, with a large fan base, a "big" league, and lots of clubs producing lots of players. Given the deep talent pool and infrastructure in place, England SHOULD be contending at every major tournament, like France, Spain and Italy.

The quality of the actual squad goes through cycles. The current squad is poor - everyone recognises this, nobody was predicting England to win Euro 2016 (they still should have beaten Iceland though). In the previous decade (always feels weird calling it the 00's) there was enough talent in the squad to contend, I believe the generation that hammered Germany 5-1 in Munich under achieved.

No other country thinks they have this right to be considered a top team when they ought to be realising they are makeweight.

Really? Because I think every other country which has had success expects this. Spain had this golden generation from 2008 - 2014, an outstanding period of wonderful football, but before that they did nothing for decades. They won Euros in 1964, then never went further than the quarter finals in either Euros or World Cup until 2008. Do you think when Spain went out in the group stage of Euro 2004, all the Spanish media and fans said: "we're just a make weight, this is where we belong, winning Euro 64 was a fluke, it was over 40 years ago, we're not a top side, the last 40 years are proof of this etc etc?" Or do you think there was national anguish at yet another failure, because the fans perceive Spain to be a top nation and should be contending, even though (at the time) they hadn't come remotely close to winning anything for 40 years? I know a lot of Spanish people and lived in Spain (pre-2008 generation) and I can tell you the expectations are no different from England.

What about the Netherlands, they failed to qualify for Euro 2016, aren't doing a very good job of qualifying for the World cup next year. Do you think the Dutch now consider themselves as also-rans? Or do they focus on the numerous times they have got to semi's and finals?

Every time there is a tournament it's all over the media that England are "one of the top teams" and should at "least be making QF's"

If you've never noticed this, you've had your head in the sand for the last 30 years.

It's irrelevant that England have a big fan base and a big league. How does that affect the team? England haven't done ANYTHING at a tournament in over 20 years.

How should England have beaten Iceland? What makes you think that? England haven't played as a team for over 20 years, and Iceland do EXACTLY that making best use of the limited talent they have. England pick on name and reputation and no England player in over 20 years has performed consistently well for their country. This attitude is exactly why they consistently fail.

Dutch DO consider themselves failures if they don't win or do well, that's why people like Riykard had the good grace to resign when they failed in the semi final, while people like Hodgson, Capello and Eriksson keep on taking the money and making excuses.

England aren't and never have been on a par with The Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Germany etc historically on a consistent level. They've TWO semi finals in over 50 years, and not many more QF's. In fact they've got a lot more failures in the first round or simply getting through to the knockouts than they have of getting any further.

England are more on a par with Czech Republic, Slovakia, Sweden, Russia and Ukraine than any of the big teams. They are 2nd tier or possibly even third tier. No one fears them, no one rates them. THe Iceland manager had it spot on when he said they are the most over-rated team in the world, and their record shows that.

[Diggers]

Not to get involved in the debate, but to be statistically correct -especially as you used caps - it's actually THREE semi finals in major tournaments in the past 49 years.

[Be_the_ball]

[McLaren]

And didn't the under 20's just win something?

[raycastleunited]

Super - just because the Sun says England should win the World Cup (they usually don't say such daft things), it doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. You shouldn't believe the hyperbole in the tabloids, that's for gullible people.

Look at the record of France and Spain. Even though they've won both the Euros and WC in recent history, they have plenty of examples of exits at the Group stage and even failing to qualify. That doesn't mean they are suddenly 2nd or 3rd tier. England are rubbish at the moment, but just because they haven't won a major tournament doesn't mean that they have been rubbish for the last 49 years.

[navyblueshorts]

By that logic Uruguay are a big nation footballing-wise?

I'm with S_R. We should be a big footballing nation with a record like Germany, especially with the FA's riches and the EPL. We aren't and the sooner everyone realises it, the more chance there is of something being done to change it. Qualifying routinely for the major championships doesn't help.
The fact we aren't any good and, if anything, have been getting worse on a World level for the last 20 years, suggests we should take our heads out of the sand.

You mentioned Spain - at least they did something to change their internal perceptions into actually producing a genuine generation of great footballers and tangible results. England just talk a lot and say "Look at the EPL!".
As for the under-20s etc, at least it shows we can produce the talent and have the raw ingredients. The fact they disappear says it all really. Far too much money, too early and too much smoke blown up their arses. To come back to earlier points - if they are so good, why are they not in demand by the Barcelonas, Real Madrids, PSGs and Bayern Munichs of the game? How many of these awesome English youngsters are 'poached' in their mid-teens by these football giants to be groomed at their academies? Doesn't really happen does it...

[Diggers]

Re the academies I think on general across Europe they are full of home nation players and African or South American kids who want to come to Europe. For example not many German kids go to Spanish academies. Also, it's pretty clear that culturally Brits for whatever reason don't really choose to travel. I'd imagine the fact that we are rubbish at other languages plays a part.
So all in all I don't see that as a valid argument on quality or lack of it in the youth system. The results this summer across the age group comps are way, way better than ever before. Whether this brings a crop through who knows, but I don't see a lack of young talent being an issue right now, certainly has been in the past though.

[raycastleunited]

I'm with S_R. We should be a big footballing nation with a record like Germany, especially with the FA's riches and the EPL. We aren't and the sooner everyone realises it, the more chance there is of something being done to change it. Qualifying routinely for the major championships doesn't help.

Something is being done to change it. The national football centre project took a long while to get off the ground, but St George's Park has been open for 4 or 5 years now. The benefit might not necessarily be about the facilities it provides (as top clubs all have academies with great facilities), but rather the chance for people to adopt a coordinated and aligned approach to player development.

Can we attribute this summer's youth team success to this? The timing feels about right... 4-5 years for the impact to flow through, but that is a massive assumption.

[raycastleunited]

I think we all agree that the lack of desire of many Brits to experience and learn from "foreign" culture is a huge stumbling block to success.

Not just football

[Diggers]

What the St George system does is get all the age group teams playing pretty much the same way, this really helps when the player transition through the groups, they feel confident and know their roles. This is exactly what the Dutch and Spanish do and it would seem to make sense, developing a national football identity and as Super points out quite rightly, playing like a team.
Will it transfer through to the full side, I'd say yes with a guy like Southgate on charge who buys into that long term strategy. If a big name foreign manager comes in he could ignore it completely. Time will tell.

[navyblueshorts]

I'm with S_R. We should be a big footballing nation with a record like Germany, especially with the FA's riches and the EPL. We aren't and the sooner everyone realises it, the more chance there is of something being done to change it. Qualifying routinely for the major championships doesn't help.

Something is being done to change it. The national football centre project took a long while to get off the ground, but St George's Park has been open for 4 or 5 years now. The benefit might not necessarily be about the facilities it provides (as top clubs all have academies with great facilities), but rather the chance for people to adopt a coordinated and aligned approach to player development.

Can we attribute this summer's youth team success to this? The timing feels about right... 4-5 years for the impact to flow through, but that is a massive assumption.

Let's hope so. We'll see I guess. Are they doing anything about training the coaches of the future?

[Diggers]

I'm with S_R. We should be a big footballing nation with a record like Germany, especially with the FA's riches and the EPL. We aren't and the sooner everyone realises it, the more chance there is of something being done to change it. Qualifying routinely for the major championships doesn't help.

Something is being done to change it. The national football centre project took a long while to get off the ground, but St George's Park has been open for 4 or 5 years now. The benefit might not necessarily be about the facilities it provides (as top clubs all have academies with great facilities), but rather the chance for people to adopt a coordinated and aligned approach to player development.

Can we attribute this summer's youth team success to this? The timing feels about right... 4-5 years for the impact to flow through, but that is a massive assumption.

Let's hope so. We'll see I guess. Are they doing anything about training the coaches of the future?

I'm coaching a couple of teams at my school Navy, so you can rule out any talent emerging from the Worthing area!!

[navyblueshorts]

I'm with S_R. We should be a big footballing nation with a record like Germany, especially with the FA's riches and the EPL. We aren't and the sooner everyone realises it, the more chance there is of something being done to change it. Qualifying routinely for the major championships doesn't help.

Something is being done to change it. The national football centre project took a long while to get off the ground, but St George's Park has been open for 4 or 5 years now. The benefit might not necessarily be about the facilities it provides (as top clubs all have academies with great facilities), but rather the chance for people to adopt a coordinated and aligned approach to player development.

Can we attribute this summer's youth team success to this? The timing feels about right... 4-5 years for the impact to flow through, but that is a massive assumption.

Let's hope so. We'll see I guess. Are they doing anything about training the coaches of the future?

I'm coaching a couple of teams at my school Navy, so you can rule out any talent emerging from the Worthing area!!

Good for you in doing it though.

[super_realist]

And didn't the under 20's just win something?

Mac, who cares, such tinpot tournaments are often won by lots of countries who never come to much in the grown up game.

[super_realist]

Not to get involved in the debate, but to be statistically correct -especially as you used caps - it's actually THREE semi finals in major tournaments in the past 49 years.

Sweden came 3rd in a world cup, and Denmark and Greece have won the Euro's South Korea also reached a semi final. It's hardly a barometer of expectation. Do you think these teams have a ridiculous expectation to get to the QF every time? Of course not.

What is the 3rd Semi Final you think they've reached? I count only 1990 and 1996. 1996 was 51 years ago.

[super_realist]

Super - just because the Sun says England should win the World Cup (they usually don't say such daft things), it doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. You shouldn't believe the hyperbole in the tabloids, that's for gullible people.

Look at the record of France and Spain. Even though they've won both the Euros and WC in recent history, they have plenty of examples of exits at the Group stage and even failing to qualify. That doesn't mean they are suddenly 2nd or 3rd tier. England are rubbish at the moment, but just because they haven't won a major tournament doesn't mean that they have been rubbish for  the last 49 years.

The difference between France/Spain and England is that they have frequently and recently won tournaments. England have stumbled to a few QF's and reached ONE SF in the last 21 years so have England (in the last 30 odd years ) been anything other than 2nd or 3rd tier? Doesn't look like it.

Where are people getting this 49 years from? What significance does 1968 have?

True, they're not rubbish, but they've never been serious contenders at any time since 1996 and have failed far more often than reached their desired QF and a miserly 4 QF's in the last 10 tournaments is hardly an indication of being anything other than 2nd tier at best. So really they've got a 40% chance of a QF? Wow.

[Diggers]

Super, England reached the semis of the Euros in 1968, they came third. In fact a lot of people think the 1970 WC team was a level up from the 66 side. A lot of the downturn seemed to follow that loss to Germany, a game they should have won easily. Not that I think they would have beaten a truly great Brazil side.

[super_realist]

OK, I missed that but big bloody deal. Three semi finals and a handful of QF's in the past 50 years doesn't make me think a team is anything other than makeweight.

There's this absurd suggestion that England should be up there with Italy, France, Germany and Spain. I dont' see why this should be. Just because of the league and population?

The trouble with the EPL is there aren't enough English players in the top teams. Most are not English, and the English are made to look better by good team mates.
If English players were as good as people claim, then there would be at least one who distinguished himself on the international stage, yet there hasn't been a single player who was consistently good.

[Davie]

1996 was 51 years ago.

[navyblueshorts]

1996 was 51 years ago.

Is this the level we're at now?

[super_realist]

1996 was 51 years ago.

1996, 1966, still a glacial period since England won anything.

[raycastleunited]

There are plenty of really good golfers - world class golfers - who have only won one major, or even none. And there are some average golfers who have some how won a major. We have this debate all the time and consistently conclude that Luke Donald is better than Ben Curtis.

The England football team was consistently decent in the 90's and 00's. Sometimes they were genuine contenders - 96, 98, 04 they were as good as any team in the tournament. Sometimes (2016) they have been poor and look lost. Maybe England is the Sergio Garcia of football, just lacking that little extra magic in a crucial moment, due to luck or nerves, that takes you over the line.

Not winning the tournament does not make you rubbish. And Greece 2004 = Ben Curtis.

[Diggers]

Sometimes it's fine margins. 82, stuffed an excellent France side, went home unbeaten when quarters were a second group stage, a fit Keegan and who knows.
86 hand of God.
90 and 96, for me the better side in both semis.
Sols perfectly good goal disallowed in 1998.
Lampards good goal disallowed in 2010, completely killed England momentum.
If and ands and all that, great sides make their own luck, England haven't been a great side and needed some luck that's not came our way in the big matches.

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