Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

He came across very poor as did fellow lib Clegg with his constant sniping at the Brexit issue.
Good riddance to both.Libs may well be a non entity now.
Tories have to proceed with caution now and build up some confidence again.

Our fire guy at work is telling us today that they really should have gone for a full evacuation at an early stage but that runs right against all previous policy putting residents and fire staff in potentially greater danger.In Blackadder terms it would have been going 'over the top'

[Diggers]

This article is from 2016 and lists nations based on performance at the big glonal tournaments. England come in 9th, sounds about right to me. I think the poor performances of recent years makes people view them as less successful than they have actually been.
http://www.goal.com/euro2016/en/article/are-germany-the-best-international-team-ever-ranking-historys-best-nations/v4lwi1do58dv1tvspdvbmuo40

[raycastleunited]

Digs - that article is an interesting way of looking at it and I think very fair.

The FIFA rankings tell a similar story. England has an average position of 10th in the world, but is currently 13th.

http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association=eng/men/index.html

[super_realist]

There are plenty of really good golfers - world class golfers - who have only won one major, or even none. And there are some average golfers who have some how won a major. We have this debate all the time and consistently conclude that Luke Donald is better than Ben Curtis.

The England football team was consistently decent in the 90's and 00's. Sometimes they were genuine contenders - 96, 98, 04 they were as good as any team in the tournament. Sometimes (2016) they have been poor and look lost. Maybe England is the Sergio Garcia of football, just lacking that little extra magic in a crucial moment, due to luck or nerves, that takes you over the line.

Not winning the tournament does not make you rubbish. And Greece 2004 = Ben Curtis.

It's not really a fair comparison. Golfers are playing a strokeplay tournament and are against the entire field. A football tournament is matchplay and you don't play against every other team.

I agree that not winning a tournament doesn't mean you are a bad team, but it doesn't mean you are good either when you've not been in a final for 51 years and more often than not go out in the group stage or the first sudden death round of 16.
It's been a very long time that you could consider England "decent" despite there being promising players virtually none of them have ever performed with any consistency (other than being consistently average) for their team.

England are nowhere near being a Sergio Garcia, because they've never been anything like as close as he came to winning. He's been to the equivalent of the final many times. England aren't even a Lee Westwood, or a Luke Donald even as he's had better major results than England too. England are probably more of a Shane Lowry, talented, but lazy and poorly directed.

[pedro]

England = Danny Willett. The only success came after a misjudgment of someone else - and ever since it has been downhill. Even the caddie flees.

[super_realist]

Nah, Danny Willett won a big one.

[pedro]

Nah, Danny Willett won a big one.

Didn't England?

[super_realist]

Yes, about a million years ago.

How many of us were actually alive? England aren't even a Colin Montgomerie, more of a David Howell.

[Diggers]

It's statistically simple.
Did great 60's
Poorly 70's
Badly 80's
Well 90's
Ok 00's
Poorly 10'
So to take the last decade as an example of their overall standing would be as stupid as using the 60's.

[McLaren]

If I were an England fan it would be the lack of a certain type of player being produced that would bother me.

It has been the case for about 20 years now that the best teams have midfielders that are totally calm on the ball and can make simple but effective passes. They beat you by passing from the back while keeping the ball.

The very best examples being the likes of Figo, Zidane, Klose, Xavi, Seedorf, Pirlo etc. But even the mediocre teams in Spain, Germany, Portugal, Italy at least try and embrace the ethos of how these players try and play the game whether or not they have world class players.

In the time I have been watching football the only English players that have fitted the mould of a modern ball retention midfielder are Scholes, Carrick and Beckham (maybe Hargreaves and Jenas)

Two of which were either played out of position or not at all.

The English system seems to favor churning out all or nothing headless chickens like Gerard, Henderson, Milner, Barry, Downing, Barkley etc.

These are not players with the guile, cheekiness or skill needed to cause teams that sit back any problems.

As a good example of what I am talking about, look at the Man Utd vs Madrid match this week. It was embarrassing how few passes Utd could string together and still keep the ball, each player receiving the ball and not knowing how to evade the defending player or how create space to make a pass.


As a side note, Lampard was an outstanding player and if it really was a case of him or Gerrard then Lampard should have been picked in his best position every time. To think England could have built a team around maximizing Lampard and Scholes (still playing pretty well in the mid 00's) and didn't bother is a bit of a disgrace.

[raycastleunited]

Yes Mac, but when you watched the highlights you would always see Gerrard pinging a 40 yard diagonal cross field ball right to someone's feet. And then everyone fawned over him. Of course the highlights didn't pick up the dozen other times he tried to play the same ball and gave away possession.

No question that Scholes was England's best midfielder in the early 00's. Hargreaves was the best England player at the 2006 World Cup, just a shame that injuries ruined his career.

[Roller_Coaster]

Having had the best midfield in the 00s and not needing either, I'd be quite interested in who Ferguson would rather have had out of Gerrard or Lampard.

I've always preferred Gerrard as an all round footballer, but suspect Lampard did the best facets of his game better and the areas in which he was weaker were supported by colleagues by being in a better team. Gerrard had to carry Liverpool to quite an extent for quite a time.

[raycastleunited]

Gerrard carried Liverpool a lot of the time, but he was often a liability for England when they came up against top class opposition. Too easy to sit back and wait for him to give the ball away.

[McLaren]

Ray

Your last post is spot on. I would rather have a guy that keeps things ticking over than one who gives the ball away by going for spectacular cross field balls. 

Roller 

If his autobiography is to be believed ferguson didn't rate Gerrard as a top player.  Although I can imagine he would take greater pleasure from signing Gerrard just to wind up Liverpool. As a fan I would have loved it if they signed lampard.

[raycastleunited]

Gerrard improved so much under Benitez, first he got him to cut out the reckless tackling and then he played him further up. But then he had Xabi Alonso as the deep lying midfielder... Alonso probably went 10 years without giving the ball away, when he dies he'll probably have to be buried with the ball.

[Roller_Coaster]

ha ha.

I forget how good Alonso was.

Mac - Alonso and Lampard in the middle, or Keane and Scholes?

[super_realist]

It's statistically simple.
Did great 60's
Poorly 70's
Badly 80's
Well 90's
Ok 00's
Poorly 10'
So to take the last decade as an example of their overall standing would be as stupid as using the 60's.

Yet, when a tournament comes around, the 60's is precisely the barmometer used in regards to Englands expectation, when in fact they have a recent record of making the QF 40% of the time.

How often do we hear, "they're as good as any team "on paper"? All the time. Truth is they're not as good on any measure. They're a Sweden or a Russia.

[Diggers]

We don't hear it though, no matter how much you bang on about it.
The stats are the stats, that's what they've achieved, that's where they stand in terms of footballing history.
In 4-6 years history shows they are just as likely to be making quarters again.

[super_realist]

We haven't heard it "as much" in the last few tournaments when England have stunk it out more than usual, but in general, it's a very common refrain that England should be reaching QF's at least and that they are as good as any other team there with things like "No one will want to play England"
Yes they will, they're a soft touch and a virtual bye to the next round.

England have only 1 QF since 2006. So it's certainly not guaranteed they'll be doing it again anytime soon.

[Diggers]

It's not guaranteed Spain will carry on winning world cups. The late 80's didn't make it seem semis would happen in the 90's, but they did. So again, we are left with the stats we have.

[super_realist]

You're right, it's not guaranteed Spain will guarantee winning anything, however teams like France, Spain, Germany etc at least change the way they do things to give them a chance of success, it may lead to failure, but England do nothing but prepare to fail.

There is no indication England will ever progress, and you only have to look at the FA to see why.

[McLaren]

ha ha.

I forget how good Alonso was.

Mac - Alonso and Lampard in the middle, or Keane and Scholes?

Alonso another example of the type of player England have struggled to produce in the last 20 odd years.



Alonso was a great player but as a Man Utd fan I will have to go for Scholes and Keane.

[pedro]

Scholes and Keane were proven. No need to fix it if it aint broke..

[Roller_Coaster]

The FA is still a 1950's telegram-using, "up the Empire" type organisation in an instant media, global, snapchat world, but to say nothing has been done about the national team is pure folly. Fact finding, analysis, consolidation of information and paths forward have been agreed and implemented based on reviews of (at least) all of those nations following their successes. The upshot was the national football centre, footballing alignment of all age playing sides, consistent pathways for youth players into the full senior side, enhanced coaching courses/facilities/support, improved academy systems. England was probably 15-20 years behind before that. It's still behind because every year of catch up, football evolves further but the gap is eroding. England do nothing is actually incredibly far off the mark. England have indeed achieved nothing recently at a senior level and I think they are still a pretty poor side, but containing some talented individuals. At finals, they come up against pretty good teams with only a smattering of individual talent that work much, much better together, having had the benefit of 20 years of coherent, aligned coaching in leagues aligned to the national team.

Unfortunately it is a constant battle as the Premier League and the national team are not complementary. The PL is entirely self serving (and nothing wrong with that as a business model) but the national team needs players to come through the improved academies and play good football at a high level, which is simply not happening to the same extent due, in part, to the influx of overseas players, the style of the PL and the colossal cost of relegation meaning at least half the teams have to put winning at all costs before how they play in an attempt to survive. Those players that do come through advance in part because they are suited to this fast, powerful Premier League "style" rather than because they are excellent ball players that would suit international football. This also prevents overseas clubs from seeing our skilful footballing talent at a decent level (which is very much there at younger ages) and offering them a route to develop abroad. Granted, there still seems to be a negative psyche with British players about going abroad, which would be an interesting focus area for academy coaching/learning, but the opportunities aren't there and so England struggle to close the gap.

England are second tier success, absolutely, and have been for a very long time. But there is talent, infrastructure, evolution, learning and progress. It just hasn't wholly worked through to the senior side yet and meanwhile the rest of the world is also progressing.

[Roller_Coaster]

Scholes and Keane were proven. No need to fix it if it aint broke..

I shall put away my tardis (or deLorean) then!

[pedro]

Scholes and Keane were proven. No need to fix it if it aint broke..

I shall put away my tardis (or deLorean) then!

Are you chicken McFly?

[raycastleunited]

The FA is still a 1950's telegram-using, "up the Empire" type organisation in an instant media, global, snapchat world, but to say nothing has been done about the national team is pure folly. Fact finding, analysis, consolidation of information and paths forward have been agreed and implemented based on reviews of (at least) all of those nations following their successes. The upshot was the national football centre, footballing alignment of all age playing sides, consistent pathways for youth players into the full senior side, enhanced coaching courses/facilities/support, improved academy systems. England was probably 15-20 years behind before that. It's still behind because every year of catch up, football evolves further but the gap is eroding. England do nothing is actually incredibly far off the mark. England have indeed achieved nothing recently at a senior level and I think they are still a pretty poor side, but containing some talented individuals. At finals, they come up against pretty good teams with only a smattering of individual talent that work much, much better together, having had the benefit of 20 years of coherent, aligned coaching in leagues aligned to the national team.

Unfortunately it is a constant battle as the Premier League and the national team are not complementary. The PL is entirely self serving (and nothing wrong with that as a business model) but the national team needs players to come through the improved academies and play good football at a high level, which is simply not happening to the same extent due, in part, to the influx of overseas players, the style of the PL and the colossal cost of relegation meaning at least half the teams have to put winning at all costs before how they play in an attempt to survive. Those players that do come through advance in part because they are suited to this fast, powerful Premier League "style" rather than because they are excellent ball players that would suit international football. This also prevents overseas clubs from seeing our skilful footballing talent at a decent level (which is very much there at younger ages) and offering them a route to develop abroad. Granted, there still seems to be a negative psyche with British players about going abroad, which would be an interesting focus area for academy coaching/learning, but the opportunities aren't there and so England struggle to close the gap.

England are second tier success, absolutely, and have been for a very long time. But there is talent, infrastructure, evolution, learning and progress. It just hasn't wholly worked through to the senior side yet and meanwhile the rest of the world is also progressing.

Good summary Roller. But it doesn't suit Super's rhetoric.

[McLaren]

England has a high enough participation level to guarantee that some kid who starts playing is a xabi alonso, at what stage is a player like that deemed surplus to requirements in the English system? 

And why?

[Roller_Coaster]

If you mean "could be" a Xabi Alonso, I'd guess at the point that he is unable to get into a PL first team because he is too sleight but needs games to develop, yet witnesses Duncan Ballbuster the 6'4" super athlete get rave reviews for bombing up and down a flank and kicking the ball into the box. I'd warrant that someone that was good enough to be Xabi would get through somewhere.

Some might go on loan, but if it's in England, they still won't get in a PL side and won't fit in to the harder, more combative Championship and league 1/2 is probably not a decent enough level of football to enable sufficient skill development. If they can't grow as a player and don't have a platform for a European team to scout them, take them and develop them they'll slip through and become a bitter and twisted forum poster.

Yours sincerely
Xabi Coaster

[Diggers]

You don't get them because if they make mistakes, as good ball players will when developing, they get hammered. Alonso wasn't created a great player, he honed his talent. This is why we should nurture talents like Stones, who possibly could, turn into that kind of quality player.

[super_realist]

The FA is still a 1950's telegram-using, "up the Empire" type organisation in an instant media, global, snapchat world, but to say nothing has been done about the national team is pure folly. Fact finding, analysis, consolidation of information and paths forward have been agreed and implemented based on reviews of (at least) all of those nations following their successes. The upshot was the national football centre, footballing alignment of all age playing sides, consistent pathways for youth players into the full senior side, enhanced coaching courses/facilities/support, improved academy systems. England was probably 15-20 years behind before that. It's still behind because every year of catch up, football evolves further but the gap is eroding. England do nothing is actually incredibly far off the mark. England have indeed achieved nothing recently at a senior level and I think they are still a pretty poor side, but containing some talented individuals. At finals, they come up against pretty good teams with only a smattering of individual talent that work much, much better together, having had the benefit of 20 years of coherent, aligned coaching in leagues aligned to the national team.

Unfortunately it is a constant battle as the Premier League and the national team are not complementary. The PL is entirely self serving (and nothing wrong with that as a business model) but the national team needs players to come through the improved academies and play good football at a high level, which is simply not happening to the same extent due, in part, to the influx of overseas players, the style of the PL and the colossal cost of relegation meaning at least half the teams have to put winning at all costs before how they play in an attempt to survive. Those players that do come through advance in part because they are suited to this fast, powerful Premier League "style" rather than because they are excellent ball players that would suit international football. This also prevents overseas clubs from seeing our skilful footballing talent at a decent level (which is very much there at younger ages) and offering them a route to develop abroad. Granted, there still seems to be a negative psyche with British players about going abroad, which would be an interesting focus area for academy coaching/learning, but the opportunities aren't there and so England struggle to close the gap.

England are second tier success, absolutely, and have been for a very long time. But there is talent, infrastructure, evolution, learning and progress. It just hasn't wholly worked through to the senior side yet and meanwhile the rest of the world is also progressing.

I don't disagree with much of that, but it's not the Premier League's, FA's or England team's fault that the players are so wet that they don't want to play abroad.
I'd also doubt that the leagues of Spain, Italy, France or Germany are run with the international teams in mind.

[McLaren]

Super

Have you seen the title of the global sticky? How come you are not all over that?



Back to the football, who knew matic was that good?

I have obviously watched the odd Chelsea game a could see that he was pretty good at picking a pass and breaking up play, but that was like busquets at his best.

[raycastleunited]

One good performance from Man U and everyone's getting carried away. Way to early to judge.

I actually want them to do well this season, Mourinho can be a d!ick but he's my favourite manager and I can't help wanting him to succeed.

[McLaren]

One good performance from Man U and everyone's getting carried away. Way to early to judge.

I actually want them to do well this season, Mourinho can be a d!ick but he's my favourite manager and I can't help wanting him to succeed.

If Mourinho can get a top 2 finish this season and quit I would be more than happy.  The guy is such a bell end.


Agree the Matic excitement is quite a bit of hype but it means we don't need Carrick to play like he could 5 years ago.  Sadly as good as Carrick is he needed replacing.  Matic will also probably be better than Ander Herrera.

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
There's no evidence that Matic has the passing range of Carrick.
And, Herrara saved them a dozen times the past few seasons - he's going to want to play and would be a big loss if he left.

[McLaren]

Kwini 

Agree that he doesn't have the passing range of Carrick but hopefully he can do a similarly effective job in the same position, just in a slightly different way. As you know I think Carrick is the best English player in his position for his generation.

[super_realist]

Mac, you must have a wet dream about Carrick every night.

He's not that great.

[JAS]

Has anyone else taken in any of the Edinburgh festival this year. Managed a quick visit for the first time in 8 years and blimey it's got bigger. Managed to take in a few decent performances, most enjoyable one had to be Andrew Lawrence...Mr controversy himself, I hadn't realised he'd been banned from the Beeb. Hilarious to see 5 people walk out faux-fended (well 4 - and the boyfriend of an offended woman also took the walk).

[pedro]

Has anyone else taken in any of the Edinburgh festival this year. Managed a quick visit for the first time in 8 years and blimey it's got bigger. Managed to take in a few decent performances, most enjoyable one had to be Andrew Lawrence...Mr controversy himself, I hadn't realised he'd been banned from the Beeb. Hilarious to see 5 people walk out faux-fended (well 4 - and the boyfriend of an offended woman also took the walk).

So mac was there then..

[super_realist]

Mac was probably one of them JAS, minus the girlfriend obviously.

[super_realist]

Ha ha, beat me to it Pedro.

[JAS]

Lol it did cross my mind but the first 2 were Irish who stomped out mumble no obscenities when the famine got mentioned, the girl walked out when he was banging on about women demanding equal pay etc the bf was funny "I thought you were great mate but she's got the car keys" The other guy just sneaked out at the side during an assault on PC lefties. Now that could have been Mac, if it was he's even older and uglier than I imagined. For some bizarre reason I just have this image of Mac as a Harry Potter lookalike.

[super_realist]

When will the plastic Irish drop this ridiculous offence at the famine. It's like a Frenchman getting upset about the Revolution.

[kwinigolfer]

Credit where credit is due - a terrific result for Celtic tonight.

[pedro]

Credit where credit is due - a terrific result for Celtic tonight.

Are you insinuating Celtic are Irish..?

[kwinigolfer]

They are tarred with a similar brush . . . . . . . .

[Diggers]

One good performance from Man U and everyone's getting carried away. Way to early to judge.

I actually want them to do well this season, Mourinho can be a d!ick but he's my favourite manager and I can't help wanting him to succeed.

If Mourinho can get a top 2 finish this season and quit I would be more than happy.  The guy is such a bell end.


Agree the Matic excitement is quite a bit of hype but it means we don't need Carrick to play like he could 5 years ago.  Sadly as good as Carrick is he needed replacing.  Matic will also probably be better than Ander Herrera.

Matic is a top buy, I don't really see the Carrick comparison, he brings more energy and a bit of a presence. I rate Carrick (rated, he's shot now) but he's never had an ability to lift a side, too much of a quiet man. Matic will step out more, interchange with Progba, get a few assists himself. Should lead to a more high tempo playing style.
Mourhino is an utter bell end, but he is a good manager. I can see the title race being between City and United this year.

[puligny]

JAS - we're in Edinburgh now. First time to festival - amazing! Highlight for us 2 blues guitarists at JazzClub. Comedians poor though good gig by Swedish guy - Tobias something!
Amazing illusion/magic show (Snap) though chap who gave us flyer did a few card tricks in the street for his audience of 2. "I'm only crew, guys in show are really good!"
Got in ballot for old course today then 2 more Edinburgh days before moving on and playing Dunbar Goswick and Roxburgh among things.
Will be back to festival in future.

[JAS]

Yeah it's brilliant Puligny, there's something for everyone, trouble is now that it's so big it's harder to track down something you think you might like.
Sadly I hadn't clubs with me, that would be a really top trip taking in the festival AND a few courses

[puligny]

I had a perverse ambition to be at a show as only audience members! 5 is best (worse) we've managed. Had a long chat with playwright which was excellent. She was remaining positive, but impression was she wasn't using proceeds for rent and food!
Not played much this year, but now trying to make up for lost time, without taking a wrecking ball to the old knee bone, so this is a great trip.

[McLaren]

Diggers

I was not trying to say that Matic and Carrick are particularly similar players, but that Mourhino will play Matic in the same base of the midfield position that he plays Carrick. The singing of Matic will mean reduced playing time for Carrick, and possibly Herrera.

As Kwini said somewhere above Herrera was pretty good last year but he isn't all that good at moving the ball forward from tight spaces.

[Sponsored content]