Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

As sizeable as the proportion of militant anti-British folk in the South? I hope you can at least admit there is bitterness and hatred on both sides of the border. Regardless, it is a minority opinion and it isn't a world any Irish rugby player (or many Irish people working in Belfast for that matter) will experience. As nasty as the Eleventh Night images often are, that isn't a fair depiction of general life in Belfast. Or the people, for that matter.

Hear hear RG

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

As sizeable as the proportion of militant anti-British folk in the South? I hope you can at least admit there is bitterness and hatred on both sides of the border. Regardless, it is a minority opinion and it isn't a world any Irish rugby player (or many Irish people working in Belfast for that matter) will experience. As nasty as the Eleventh Night images often are, that isn't a fair depiction of general life in Belfast. Or the people, for that matter.

No, I don't think there is much bitterness and certainly no hatred on the southern side of the border. If anything, there is an annoyance that the two communities can't get on and look to the future.

The difference is the division is evident everywhere in NI (flags, peace walls etc). In any other country in the world, those builders of those massive bonfires around the 12th with ROI flags and 'kill all taigs' atop, would be prosecuted and locked up for hate crimes - but in NI they get Government grants! You might think that is normal behaviour - but pretty much everywhere else in the world, it isn't.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

As sizeable as the proportion of militant anti-British folk in the South? I hope you can at least admit there is bitterness and hatred on both sides of the border. Regardless, it is a minority opinion and it isn't a world any Irish rugby player (or many Irish people working in Belfast for that matter) will experience. As nasty as the Eleventh Night images often are, that isn't a fair depiction of general life in Belfast. Or the people, for that matter.

No, I don't think there is much bitterness and certainly no hatred on the southern side of the border. If anything, there is an annoyance that the two communities can't get on and look to the future.

The difference is the division is evident everywhere in NI (flags, peace walls etc). In any other country in the world, those builders of those massive bonfires around the 12th with ROI flags and 'kill all taigs' atop, would be prosecuted and locked up for hate crimes - but in NI they get Government grants! You might think that is normal behaviour - but pretty much everywhere else in the world, it isn't.

Q.E.D.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

As sizeable as the proportion of militant anti-British folk in the South? I hope you can at least admit there is bitterness and hatred on both sides of the border. Regardless, it is a minority opinion and it isn't a world any Irish rugby player (or many Irish people working in Belfast for that matter) will experience. As nasty as the Eleventh Night images often are, that isn't a fair depiction of general life in Belfast. Or the people, for that matter.

No, I don't think there is much bitterness and certainly no hatred on the southern side of the border. If anything, there is an annoyance that the two communities can't get on and look to the future.

The difference is the division is evident everywhere in NI (flags, peace walls etc). In any other country in the world, those builders of those massive bonfires around the 12th with ROI flags and 'kill all taigs' atop, would be prosecuted and locked up for hate crimes - but in NI they get Government grants! You might think that is normal behaviour - but pretty much everywhere else in the world, it isn't.

Q.E.D.

So its all southerners fault that they won't move to Belfast and like it!

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

You start off by asking me not to be ridiculous and then you come out with one of the most ill-informed and ridiculous comments I've read in a very long time.
Firstly, you should never judge people by your own obvious standards.
Secondly, the only anti-Northern hostility I've ever come across was on holiday in Barbados where the hotel was filled with people from all over Ireland. There we all were drinking rum and having a fantastic time apart from a group you refused to sit with the 'Brits'. They even refused to sit with anyone who would sit with the 'Brits'. They sat in the far corner singing songs about the IRA whilst the people from Dublin, Galway, Sligo and Waterford apologised unnecessarily to us for that kind of behaviour. That group of bigots were from Cork, should I assume I should avoid Cork forever?

So, to be clear Pete, you see no difference between a group of lads from Cork singing rebel songs in Barbados where other Irish people from all over the place apologised for their behaviour to where not only do the Gov. ignore, but actually grant aid some of the community of NI to build bonnies to express their hate for another section of the community and which are both a danger to the community and an environmental hazard.

Given a choice of moving to a city in England or NI, all things in equal, I think most people would take the boat to England where at least sectarian hatred/racism isn't in your face.

OK I'll put it simply shall I?

The 12th bonfires and all that goes with them no more represent the people of Belfast and Ulster than a bunch of bigotted cowards singing IRA songs could ever represent the people of Cork and Munster.

A lot of the stuff associated with the bonfires is very distasteful but it's an incredibly delicate issue for the authorities to deal with. The trouble that would be stirred up by attempting to criminalise the bonfires is not worth it for something that only happens one night a year. Also to be balanced there has been some similar antisocial activity with nationalist bonfires recently which is equally repugnant.

Regardless it really isn't something that should be affecting any southern rugby pro's decision making - like Rory said it's not a world they would be coming into contact with and to claim they'd be facing constant sectarian hatred is pure nonsense.

"The difference is the division is evident everywhere in NI (flags, peace walls etc). In any other country in the world, those builders of those massive bonfires around the 12th with ROI flags and 'kill all taigs' atop, would be prosecuted and locked up for hate crimes - but in NI they get Government grants! You might think that is normal behaviour - but pretty much everywhere else in the world, it isn't."

An excellent example of one sided and inaccurate image of here that's spread by the lazy media, dying for the quick story. The flags are few and far between and peace walls are confined to small areas of Belfast and Derry. The bonfires have burned as many British flags as Irish of late but the vast majority of people here only see them on TV anyway and have no interest in what colour of cloth is on fire on them. Everywhere else we all get along without a care.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

As sizeable as the proportion of militant anti-British folk in the South? I hope you can at least admit there is bitterness and hatred on both sides of the border. Regardless, it is a minority opinion and it isn't a world any Irish rugby player (or many Irish people working in Belfast for that matter) will experience. As nasty as the Eleventh Night images often are, that isn't a fair depiction of general life in Belfast. Or the people, for that matter.

No, I don't think there is much bitterness and certainly no hatred on the southern side of the border. If anything, there is an annoyance that the two communities can't get on and look to the future.

The difference is the division is evident everywhere in NI (flags, peace walls etc). In any other country in the world, those builders of those massive bonfires around the 12th with ROI flags and 'kill all taigs' atop, would be prosecuted and locked up for hate crimes - but in NI they get Government grants! You might think that is normal behaviour - but pretty much everywhere else in the world, it isn't.

Q.E.D.

So its all southerners fault that they won't move to Belfast and like it!

The assertion was that some Irish players from the other three provinces may have a perception of Ulster as anti-irish, and therefore not be attracted to go there. Your posts amply demonstrate that perception - thanks, quod erat demonstratum.

It is hardly the "southerners fault" if they don't want to move to Belfast, nor should the IRFU be a dictatorship forcing moves. Ulster Rugby is apolitical and long may that continue, so they have no way to change those perceptions. Perhaps it is time for the IRFU to acknowledge that this chill factor exists, and accept that Ulster have a much smaller IQ pool of players to recruit from, and so they should consider allowing Ulster say two additional NIQ places.

Pete330v2 wrote:"The difference is the division is evident everywhere in NI (flags, peace walls etc). In any other country in the world, those builders of those massive bonfires around the 12th with ROI flags and 'kill all taigs' atop, would be prosecuted and locked up for hate crimes - but in NI they get Government grants! You might think that is normal behaviour - but pretty much everywhere else in the world, it isn't."

An excellent example of one sided and inaccurate image of here that's spread by the lazy media, dying for the quick story. The flags are few and far between and peace walls are confined to small areas of Belfast and Derry. The bonfires have burned as many British flags as Irish of late but the vast majority of people here only see them on TV anyway and have no interest in what colour of cloth is on fire on them. Everywhere else we all get along without a care.

The as many British flags as Irish ones is definitely an over exaggeration considering there are only a small number of Republican bonfires some of which are dismantled. Though the flags that were Ivory Coast may have balanced the number out

As for Sin es govt grant remark, if he followed it all a bit more closely he would know that funding was specifically refused to areas which had bonfires with flags and other crap on it

Ever been to Belfast Sin?

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"The difference is the division is evident everywhere in NI (flags, peace walls etc). In any other country in the world, those builders of those massive bonfires around the 12th with ROI flags and 'kill all taigs' atop, would be prosecuted and locked up for hate crimes - but in NI they get Government grants! You might think that is normal behaviour - but pretty much everywhere else in the world, it isn't."

An excellent example of one sided and inaccurate image of here that's spread by the lazy media, dying for the quick story. The flags are few and far between and peace walls are confined to small areas of Belfast and Derry. The bonfires have burned as many British flags as Irish of late but the vast majority of people here only see them on TV anyway and have no interest in what colour of cloth is on fire on them. Everywhere else we all get along without a care.

The as many British flags as Irish ones is definitely an over exaggeration considering there are only a small number of Republican bonfires some of which are dismantled. Though the flags that were Ivory Coast may have balanced the number out  

As for Sin es govt grant remark, if he followed it all a bit more closely he would know that funding was specifically refused to areas which had bonfires with flags and other crap on it

I did say 'of late' but that all aside Marty, Sin seems to be of the opinion that the bonfires etc are a fair and accurate depiction of life in Northern Ireland. The point of it is that it's a media driven depiction which simply is not accurate but does, understandably put people off relocating to Belfast. The vast majority of people in Belfast, and Northern Ireland couldn't care less where you're from, what your political leanings are or how and where you pray. Unless you go to live in the council estates that adorned with murals and coloured kerbs you'll have as much chance of experiencing those negative aspects as you have being hit by a bus.

P.S. you forgot about the Italian flags

There is a lot more wrong than just the bonfires - you who are from NI are just used to it (which is nearly worse that you just accept it). No one will stand up and say its not right.

The difference between NI & ROI is for example, last week some Cork supporters flew the Confederate flag at the Cork-Waterford Hurling in Croke Park. It got a fair bit of criticism for it, but they were condemned by everyone for doing it including Cork GAA, local politicians etc. who told them not to do it again.

Its laughable as well, that the claim that 12th is only one day - the marching season goes on for 2 months now.

Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on.

the-goon wrote:Ever been to Belfast Sin?

Plenty of times, but more in the countryside of NI (I'd be a fairly frequent visitor to the Mournes and have been a couple of times to the North Antrim coast walking and climbing).

The Great Aukster wrote:

The assertion was that some Irish players from the other three provinces may have a perception of Ulster as anti-irish, and therefore not be attracted to go there. Your posts amply demonstrate that perception - thanks, quod erat demonstratum.

It is hardly the "southerners fault" if they don't want to move to Belfast, nor should the IRFU be a dictatorship forcing moves. Ulster Rugby is apolitical and long may that continue, so they have no way to change those perceptions. Perhaps it is time for the IRFU to acknowledge that this chill factor exists, and accept that Ulster have a much smaller IQ pool of players to recruit from, and so they should consider allowing Ulster say two additional NIQ places.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish. My point is about how welcome southerners would feel moving to Belfast.

"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That's it exactly Sin é (fitting too considering your online moniker) , that's the attitude that prevails. the one that thinks Belfast is all fighting and bonfire (Bonies if your from there). That's like saying Dublin is only about the Zoo, flippin animals everywhere crocodiles in the Liffey.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. You want to know why more southerners won't move north. The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that.

You start off by asking me not to be ridiculous and then you come out with one of the most ill-informed and ridiculous comments I've read in a very long time.
Firstly, you should never judge people by your own obvious standards.
Secondly, the only anti-Northern hostility I've ever come across was on holiday in Barbados where the hotel was filled with people from all over Ireland. There we all were drinking rum and having a fantastic time apart from a group you refused to sit with the 'Brits'. They even refused to sit with anyone who would sit with the 'Brits'. They sat in the far corner singing songs about the IRA whilst the people from Dublin, Galway, Sligo and Waterford apologised unnecessarily to us for that kind of behaviour. That group of bigots were from Cork, should I assume I should avoid Cork forever?

Jesus that is embarrassing, not only does the opinion there wind me up but the arrogance in expressing it like they are so informed. It must be exhausting to live with such determined stupidity that you have to carry it internationally. You know it's bad when people from Waterford are apologizing for your behavior

Honestly like you say I wouldn't consider that representative of Cork, no more than I would bonfires representative of Belfast. The times I've been up there I've had a ball. I would say a lot of the hostility is surface level upheld by a vocal minority both north and south of the border, most people were positive about where the relationship was headed, at least prior to talk of a customs border and the fool's errand that is Brexit.

Do we know that players are less likely to move to Ulster statistically? In the last year we have few years we have had Cooney and Ah You head to ulster from Connacht, although hasn't been much movement from other provinces that I'm aware of. Whatever about the political tension in soccer, does it rear it's head much in Ulster rugby? Never really seen or heard of any tension.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

No, you were referring to the population of Northern Ireland, it's right there in writing. You were also referring to 'southerners' and that they all know how a sizeable part of Northern Ireland hate them which is simply not true and resides only in your mind.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

No, you were referring to the population of Northern Ireland, it's right there in writing. You were also referring to 'southerners' and that they all know how a sizeable part of Northern Ireland hate them which is simply not true and resides only in your mind.

The Orange Order had 34,000 members in 2012. There are about 700 pipe bands with about 30,000 members. You seem to dismiss the support the DUP gets despite their loyalist paramilitary connections. I'd regard that as a significent number who show plenty of dislike for us. Its not as if there are not moderate Unionists parties there to support.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

No, you were referring to the population of Northern Ireland, it's right there in writing. You were also referring to 'southerners' and that they all know how a sizeable part of Northern Ireland hate them which is simply not true and resides only in your mind.

The Orange Order had 34,000 members in 2012. There are about 700 pipe bands with about 30,000 members. You seem to dismiss the support the DUP gets despite their loyalist paramilitary connections. I'd regard that as a significent number who show plenty of dislike for us. Its not as if there are not moderate Unionists parties there to support.

I know I'm flogging a dead horse here but here goes:
Orange order members do not hate people from the ROI, there may be some hardcore elements that are deluded enough but there are no official figures on that. My father is a member and he himself was born in Dublin and still identifies very much as Irish. There are many, many more like him.
Pipe band members are just as removed from being automatically labeled as haters of all things Irish. There may be some flute bands who are that way but even then not all and once again there are no figures.
As with the previous accusations simply voting for the DUP does not make you hate Southern Ireland. There may well be some who do but voting to remain part of the UK doesn't mean you hate everyone else. It's yet another case where you're talking out your back end.
You are great at cutting and pasting figures from Wikipedia, it's a shame you have no idea whatsoever about the subject matter or context.

Again I'm not convinced the political tensions are whats stopping lads moving north. Has ulster rugby had a problem with sectarianism or violence?

Sin é wrote:There is a lot more wrong than just the bonfires - you who are from NI are just used to it (which is nearly worse that you just accept it). No one will stand up and say its not right.

The difference between NI & ROI is for example, last week some Cork supporters flew the Confederate flag at the Cork-Waterford Hurling in Croke Park. It got a fair bit of criticism for it, but they were condemned by everyone for doing it including Cork GAA, local politicians etc. who told them not to do it again.

Its laughable as well, that the claim that 12th is only one day - the marching season goes on for 2 months now.

Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on.

Not only do the markings not represent whole communities just the ignorant few who look at dogs pi$$ing on lamp posts and think I need to do something like that. One of my best mates is from Dublin and lives and works in a hardcore loyalist estate with no problem.

Marshes wrote:Again I'm not convinced the political tensions are whats stopping lads moving north. Has ulster rugby had a problem with sectarianism or violence?

Absolutely not Marshes, quite the opposite, rugby brings people from all backgrounds together and not just Ulster rugby but at club level. It truely is one sport that doesn't recognise any of the traditionally perceived boundaries.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:Again I'm not convinced the political tensions are whats stopping lads moving north. Has ulster rugby had a problem with sectarianism or violence?

Absolutely not Marshes, quite the opposite, rugby brings people from all backgrounds together and not just Ulster rugby but at club level. It truely is one sport that doesn't recognise any of the traditionally perceived boundaries.

That's what I thought, never heard it mentioned. I don't buy that the lads not wanting to move north due to sectarian concerns, if there is an issue at all. In fact don't a few young lads move up there into the academy? Nick Timoney thats breaking in now went to Blackrock

Of the recent ones, I'd say Dom Ryan was offered more money at Leicester, simple as.

The provinces not being allowed to outbid each other probably can't help matters, if you can stay at Leinster or Munster and not have the cost of moving and all that goes with it then why wouldnt you sit tight and for the same money?

That's where the IRFU need to step in and incentivise players to make the move when requested with financial bonuses or some free clothes from Tommy Bowe's clothing line

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

This is, quite frankly, bigoted nonsense. There are many, many people who fit the above criteria who are nothing close to the kind of people you describe. I would suggest that perhaps the information you are receiving is, in itself, bigoted and biased against Northerners, if this is what you are being taught. I am not pretending that we don't have our problems with sectarianism, but aside from a few depraved loyalist and republican enclaves, it is a world that most will not discover or care for. Any hint of sectarianism in the work place is dealt with very severely, for example, which has obviously proved to be a very good deterrent. Most people just want to live a simple life free from this crap.

As I said also, this isn't a one sided thing. Last year I worked with young people in a very republican area in which the kids were taught to shout obscenities and give unsavoury hand gestures to anyone wearing a Northern Ireland top, or anything that had some sort of British connection. It was rather disheartening, but this is just how it is in a few communities.

Anyway, can we get back to the rugby? All this misinformation and bigotry is giving me a headache.

Quick point before we go back to the rugby!! I watched a movie called "'71" there the other night on a recommendation, about a young British soldier who gets lost in belfast around the start of the troubles. Good watch!!

On the rugby front and slightly connected to Ulster in that it relates to Jackson's trial. If Sexton or Carbery are injured for November, who is the next two or three in line? Hanrahan? Byrne? Carty? It looks absolutely threadbare.

Binder Ali and Tyler Bleyendaal spotted at the Irish training camp in official gear:
https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20914591_1138454556285153_3342647661018466224_n.jpg?oh=59c7a7f04af91256d6d740876117d774&oe=5A19ACD9

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

No, you were referring to the population of Northern Ireland, it's right there in writing. You were also referring to 'southerners' and that they all know how a sizeable part of Northern Ireland hate them which is simply not true and resides only in your mind.

The Orange Order had 34,000 members in 2012. There are about 700 pipe bands with about 30,000 members. You seem to dismiss the support the DUP gets despite their loyalist paramilitary connections. I'd regard that as a significent number who show plenty of dislike for us. Its not as if there are not moderate Unionists parties there to support.

I know I'm flogging a dead horse here but here goes:
Orange order members do not hate people from the ROI, there may be some hardcore elements that are deluded enough but there are no official figures on that. My father is a member and he himself was born in Dublin and still identifies very much as Irish. There are many, many more like him.
Pipe band members are just as removed from being automatically labeled as haters of all things Irish. There may be some flute bands who are that way but even then not all and once again there are no figures.
As with the previous accusations simply voting for the DUP does not make you hate Southern Ireland. There may well be some who do but voting to remain part of the UK doesn't mean you hate everyone else. It's yet another case where you're talking out your back end.
You are great at cutting and pasting figures from Wikipedia, it's a shame you have no idea whatsoever about the subject matter or context.

Carson was from Dublin so I'm not quite sure what your point is you are trying to make there. Its not about being just Irish - its about being an Irish Protestant or being an Irish Catholic and the fact that probably about 80% of the population of the Republic are culturally catholics. This is the wiki discription of the Orange Order. This is how others see it.

The Orange Order is a conservative British unionist organisation[4][5] with links to Ulster loyalism. It campaigned against Scottish independence in 2014.[6] The Order sees itself as defending Protestant civil and religious liberties, whilst critics accuse the Order of being sectarian, triumphalist,[7][8][9][10] and supremacist.[10][11][12][13] It has also been criticised for associating with loyalist paramilitary groups. As a Protestant society, it does not accept non-Protestants as members unless they convert and adhere to the principles of Orangeism, nor does it accept Protestants married to Catholics.[14][15][16] Orange marches through mainly Catholic and nationalist neighbourhoods in Northern Ireland are controversial and have often led to violence.[17][18]

The DUP are willing to commit economic suicide with NI in their effort to get as high a wall as possible between ROI & NI. I was listening to a radio discusson on LBC Radio with James O'Brien around the time of Leo Varadkar's speech in Belfast. One of the people who phoned in was a young man who identified as being a unionist where he said he was impressed with Leo Varadkar and he was really fed up of the DUP who were only interested in bonfires. (attaching link http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexiteers-think-know-more-on-ireland-james-obrien/ )

As for quoting wiki - its hard to actually get membership numbers out of context! 30,000 is a sizeable number in a small place like NI where more than half the population are excluded from membership anyway.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

This is, quite frankly, bigoted nonsense. There are many, many people who fit the above criteria who are nothing close to the kind of people you describe. I would suggest that perhaps the information you are receiving is, in itself, bigoted and biased against Northerners, if this is what you are being taught. I am not pretending that we don't have our problems with sectarianism, but aside from a few depraved loyalist and republican enclaves, it is a world that most will not discover or care for. Any hint of sectarianism in the work place is dealt with very severely, for example, which has obviously proved to be a very good deterrent. Most people just want to live a simple life free from this crap.

As I said also, this isn't a one sided thing. Last year I worked with young people in a very republican area in which the kids were taught to shout obscenities and give unsavoury hand gestures to anyone wearing a Northern Ireland top, or anything that had some sort of British connection. It was rather disheartening, but this is just how it is in a few communities.

Anyway, can we get back to the rugby? All this misinformation and bigotry is giving me a headache.

How can you claim that the Orange Order isn't a sectarian organisation? Remind me what all the bonfires & 2 months of marching every year is all about?

Don't you just love nationalism not? Its a queer thing but really the question is can we evolve to live in peace with each other. Newton was right not only in physics about action and reaction and so we must learn to act with wisdom and pay homage to our time and place in the cosmos. Entropy always wins out however society's decline and fall is not defined. Wisdom by way of equality and truth is our guide. Let not fear and hate delude us. Wisdom has made peoples lives better, so now is the time to continue on that path and not to fall to the folly of division and difference.

It's impossible for someone to see what they should when they are so very blind!

Sin, I'll attempt once more to explain just before I leave you and Wiki alone together. This discussion was about your claim that a "sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts".

The people of Northern Ireland are not taught to neither do they feel any need to hate anyone from the Republic of Ireland. Even the extremists that are members of the paramilitary groups are too busy hating eachother to bother about hating anyone else. Just because the DUP (of which I am no fan) only want to remain as a part of the UK, they don't aim any hatred towards the south. The Orange Order exists to perpetuate protestantism, it's a slowly dying order and I know many members. Not one of them aims any ire to the south just because they are members. Any negative feelings about whats south of the border have nothing to do with either being a protestant or wanting to remain in the UK. Not wanting a united Ireland doesn't mean you hate the ROI.

I have a colleague who commutes from Dublin. He had a perception that he would meet a lot of negativity when he came north to work. He hasn't in 4 years met with anything remotely negative and for that matter has found only a warm welcome from everyone.

Is that clear enough?

I haven't read all the comments above but I'll throw in my tuppence worth.

The protestant bigotry, which undeniably exists in some quarters in northern Ireland, and which may prevent some players from the Republic coming north, cannot be viewed in a vacuum.

The protestant bigotry has to be seen in the context of the republican bigotry as well. Each side outdoes each other in being so petty and painful to listen to.

It is such a sad and depressing thing that so many bigots have made such a good living (politicians and terrorists alike) out of the troubles. Did we really all think that all those people involved in extortion during the troubles and had a standing in their community because of the troubles would suddenly find a real job and work for a living after the peace process?

Hating the other side is bred into them, it is a way of life and a good earner if you are in the right place.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

This is, quite frankly, bigoted nonsense. There are many, many people who fit the above criteria who are nothing close to the kind of people you describe. I would suggest that perhaps the information you are receiving is, in itself, bigoted and biased against Northerners, if this is what you are being taught. I am not pretending that we don't have our problems with sectarianism, but aside from a few depraved loyalist and republican enclaves, it is a world that most will not discover or care for. Any hint of sectarianism in the work place is dealt with very severely, for example, which has obviously proved to be a very good deterrent. Most people just want to live a simple life free from this crap.

As I said also, this isn't a one sided thing. Last year I worked with young people in a very republican area in which the kids were taught to shout obscenities and give unsavoury hand gestures to anyone wearing a Northern Ireland top, or anything that had some sort of British connection. It was rather disheartening, but this is just how it is in a few communities.

Anyway, can we get back to the rugby? All this misinformation and bigotry is giving me a headache.

How can you claim that the Orange Order isn't a sectarian organisation? Remind me what all the bonfires & 2 months of marching every year is all about?

Look, I'm no big fan of the Orange Order or what has become of the Eleventh Night etc. I am well aware there are some very sectarian elements involved. I'm also not going to get into the history lesson, what I am taking issue with the generalisations you are making. As I have said, most people who march, who are involved in pipe bands or who are in the Orange Order do not hate Irish people. Most people in Belfast do not hate Irish people. There are plenty of Irish people who live and work in Belfast. There are Irish people who enjoy living here. Most people just want to live a simple, quiet life free from this crap. Don't be so foolish to judge us by our rubbish politicians and fringe groups.

Plus, there's an awful lot more to Ulster than just Belfast or the Orange Order. It really is a beautiful place and most are far too eager to bash it/leave for greener pastures before discovering its beautiful landscape, towns, culture and Christian heritage. Some beautiful ancient monasteries, cathedrals and castles, if you're into that sort of thing. I visited Greyabbey last week for example, it was quite remarkable.

Anyone got a problem with Aki and Bleyendaal being called into the squads? I imagine a few will be gritting their teeth in the press about it this week or come November/February.

Marshes wrote:Anyone got a problem with Aki and Bleyendaal being called into the squads? I imagine a few will be gritting their teeth in the press about it this week or come November/February.

Can't say I'm pleased about it myself. I would rather lose more games with an actual Irish team than win everything with a team of SANZAR imports. Is three years long enough to become an Irish citizen?

Marshes wrote:Anyone got a problem with Aki and Bleyendaal being called into the squads? I imagine a few will be gritting their teeth in the press about it this week or come November/February.

I don't have the remotest problem at all. When someone has come to these shores and committed themselves to fulfilling what's required to become Irish qualified then they have every right to the Irish shirt. I'd rather have a high quality imported player than an average Irish born one every time. Aki was always going to be in camp at the soonest possible opportunity. Bleyendaal is a fantastic player and obviously being brought into the camp as there may well be one outhalf missing from duties come the 6 nations.

The English and Scottish certainly can't comment when it comes to imports.

Marshes wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:Again I'm not convinced the political tensions are whats stopping lads moving north. Has ulster rugby had a problem with sectarianism or violence?

Absolutely not Marshes, quite the opposite, rugby brings people from all backgrounds together and not just Ulster rugby but at club level. It truely is one sport that doesn't recognise any of the traditionally perceived boundaries.

That's what I thought, never heard it mentioned. I don't buy that the lads not wanting to move north due to sectarian concerns, if there is an issue at all. In fact don't a few young lads move up there into the academy? Nick Timoney thats breaking in now went to Blackrock

Of the recent ones, I'd say Dom Ryan was offered more money at Leicester, simple as.

The problem isn't reality but perception. It is clear from the posts that some non-Ulster based people perceive that Ulster (the province) is anti-Irish irrespective of the reality of the situation. Some players will undoubtedly hold that same view, so there is 'chill' factor for some players moving to Ulster, and that is why the IRFU need to treat UR as a special case.

The reality is the people who believe they will not be welcome here are the ones who don't come here and spend some time experiencing the place.

Those who actually do regularly comment on the warmth of the welcome - that welcome is what tourist regularly say they treasure most from their visits.

I have a good friend who goes to rugby with us (English) and he would tell you in 20 years he has NEVER experienced an anti English comment within ear shot.
He gets the piss taken out of him regularly at matches by his mates - but that is ok and fair game

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"Pete, do you ever get out of Belfast -if you did, you would know that the kerbs of the villages and towns are well marked, not to mention the number of flags everywhere so you know exactly whose patch you are on".

I don't live in Belfast and my job takes me all over the country on a daily basis so I have more than a decent insight into how much the kerbs of villages and towns are marked.

The assertion was no such thing that Ulster was anti-Irish.

"The issue is that southerners know that a sizeable proportion of the population of NI hate southerner's guts and why would anyone want to go live and work in that".

I was referring to Ulster Rugby not being anti-Irish. Its the loyalists/orange order/pipe bands (not forgetting the DUP) who hate our guts.

No, you were referring to the population of Northern Ireland, it's right there in writing. You were also referring to 'southerners' and that they all know how a sizeable part of Northern Ireland hate them which is simply not true and resides only in your mind.

There seems to be a bit of confusion here about my point, so I'll restate it again. Irish people in general (as in the gaelic/ROI/cultural/RCs) feel a hostility from British Irish (Scots Irish/English Irish, loyalists) to all things Irish or of a gaelic nature such as Irish language, GAA (to borrow from elsewhere*), makes NI a 'cold place for catholics'**

*the phrase used to used about the ROI being a 'cold place for protestants'.
**I use 'catholics' in the sense of cultural catholics (they maybe mostly atheists now!).

The following extra from an article in the Irish Times describes this attitude perfectly.

The Irish language and the lack of respect for it by unionism is synonymous with the concept of ‘parity of esteem’ in nationalists’ heads.

It is one of the key quoins of Irish nationalism and Unionist acceptance of this would be evidence of being prepared to live with difference.

Attitudes in the DUP break down into two broad divisions - firstly that section which detests the Irish language, the GAA and anything else Irish.

The second group includes those who are less strident in their opposition to the language as a language but take the view that Irish has been in their parlance ‘weaponised’ by Sinn Féin and to entreat with it would be, to be contaminated.

The DUP would contend that what it offered on Irish in the recent talks was a considerable advance on its original stance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eamonn-mallie-the-dup-and-the-irish-language-act-1.3033567

geoff999rugby wrote:The reality is the people who believe they will not be welcome here are the ones who don't come here and spend some time experiencing the place.

Those who actually do regularly comment on the warmth of the welcome - that welcome is what tourist regularly say they treasure most from their visits.

I have a good friend who goes to rugby with us (English) and he would tell you in 20 years he has NEVER experienced an anti English comment within ear shot.
He gets the piss taken out of him regularly at matches by his mates - but that is ok and fair game  

Why would your English (i.e., British friend get stick)? The only ones likely to give him stick you would think would be NI nationalists, so its good to hear that he doesn't get any stick from them!

"There seems to be a bit of confusion here about my point, so I'll restate it again. Irish people in general (as in the gaelic/ROI/cultural/RCs) feel a hostility from British Irish (Scots Irish/English Irish, loyalists) to all things Irish or of a gaelic nature such as Irish language, GAA (to borrow from elsewhere*), makes NI a 'cold place for catholics'**"

Confusion? Not a bit. Perhaps your badly made, misinformed points are confusing you. Do you feel you can speak for 'Irish people in general'?
What are English/Irish? That's a new one.
You then go on to quote a journalist who's waffling through his/her 'expert' opinion on peoples' thoughts. Why?
"makes NI a 'cold place for catholics". You need to research what exactly a Catholic is.

You really should just leave this debate, you're looking really foolish now.

Pete330v2 wrote:"There seems to be a bit of confusion here about my point, so I'll restate it again. Irish people in general (as in the gaelic/ROI/cultural/RCs) feel a hostility from British Irish (Scots Irish/English Irish, loyalists) to all things Irish or of a gaelic nature such as Irish language, GAA (to borrow from elsewhere*), makes NI a 'cold place for catholics'**"

Confusion? Not a bit. Perhaps your badly made, misinformed points are confusing you. Do you feel you can speak for 'Irish people in general'?
What are English/Irish? That's a new one.
You then go on to quote a journalist who's waffling through his/her 'expert' opinion on peoples' thoughts. Why?
"makes NI a 'cold place for catholics". You need to research what exactly a Catholic is.

You really should just leave this debate, you're looking really foolish now.

I can speak for 'Irish people in general' just the same as you can speak for the Unionist community* in Northern Ireland.

*Nationalists in NI see things differently if you look at who they elect to Stormont and Westminster.

English Irish - just recognising that people came from both Scotland and from England in the Ulster Plantation.

Eamonn Mallie is a very respected journalist, so I'd take note of his opinion. Why is there such opposition to an Irish Language Act which was agreed as part of the Good Friday Agreement and has been blocked by the DUP for the last 20 years?

I know perfectly well what catholic' means - and note I have used Roman Catholics elsewhere - since the comment was based on 'cold place for Protestants' - I'm pretty sure everyone knew that included those from Church of Ireland and Anglicans back then.

Sin é wrote:
Irish people in general (as in the gaelic/ROI/cultural/RCs) feel a hostility from British Irish (Scots Irish/English Irish, loyalists) to all things Irish or of a gaelic nature such as Irish language, GAA (to borrow from elsewhere*), makes NI a 'cold place for catholics'**

I can only describe the above as bizarre.

Are there people with hostile attitudes towards Catholics - of course there are but that is a small politicized minority.
To the vast majority of people there is not a problem.

'A cold place for Catholics' - so you are saying it is a cold place for nearly half the population.
In the pre troubles past yes but now Utter nonsense.
Was your last visit in 1976 ???

Things are a long way from being perfect but the picture you paint bares scant resemblance to the place where I live
You are seeing animosity where it doesn't exist.