Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:  
Irish people in general (as in the gaelic/ROI/cultural/RCs) feel a hostility from British Irish (Scots Irish/English Irish, loyalists) to all things Irish or of a gaelic nature such as Irish language, GAA (to borrow from elsewhere*), makes NI a 'cold place for catholics'**

I can only describe the above as bizarre.

Are there people with hostile attitudes towards Catholics - of course there are but that is a small politicized minority.
To the vast majority of people there is not a problem.

'A cold place for Catholics' - so you are saying it is a cold place for nearly half the population.
In the pre troubles past yes but now Utter nonsense.
Was your last visit in 1976 ???

Things are a long way from being perfect but the picture you paint bares scant resemblance to the place where I live
You are seeing animosity where it doesn't exist.

I'd say NI is a bloody mess and it isn't just 'a small politicized minority'. One side vote for a shower of extremists and the other side vote for a shower of bigots. The SDLP, UUP, Alliance and other moderates are mostly wiped out.

While things have improved since the 70s for NI Roman Catholics/Nationalists, it was at a very low base so it would have been hard not to improve a bit, but scratch the surface the bigotry is still alive and kicking.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"There seems to be a bit of confusion here about my point, so I'll restate it again. Irish people in general (as in the gaelic/ROI/cultural/RCs) feel a hostility from British Irish (Scots Irish/English Irish, loyalists) to all things Irish or of a gaelic nature such as Irish language, GAA (to borrow from elsewhere*), makes NI a 'cold place for catholics'**"

Confusion? Not a bit. Perhaps your badly made, misinformed points are confusing you. Do you feel you can speak for 'Irish people in general'?
What are English/Irish? That's a new one.
You then go on to quote a journalist who's waffling through his/her 'expert' opinion on peoples' thoughts. Why?
"makes NI a 'cold place for catholics". You need to research what exactly a Catholic is.

You really should just leave this debate, you're looking really foolish now.

I can speak for 'Irish people in general' just the same as you can speak for the Unionist community* in Northern Ireland.

*Nationalists in NI see things differently if you look at who they elect to Stormont and Westminster.

English Irish - just recognising that people came from both Scotland and from England in the Ulster Plantation.

Eamonn Mallie is a very respected journalist, so I'd take note of his opinion. Why is there such opposition to an Irish Language Act which was agreed as part of the Good Friday Agreement and has been blocked by the DUP for the last 20 years?

I know perfectly well what catholic' means - and note I have used Roman Catholics elsewhere - since the comment was based on 'cold place for Protestants' - I'm pretty sure everyone knew that included those from Church of Ireland and Anglicans back then.

"just the same as you can speak for the Unionist community* in Northern Ireland."

I can't and would never be so ridiculously arrogant to attempt it.

"English Irish - just recognising that people came from both Scotland and from England in the Ulster Plantation."

Strange but obviously a personal choice as I've yet to ever see it used anywhere.

"Eamonn Mallie is a very respected journalist"

Much in the same way that some would refer to you as a respected poster on these forums.

You are a very, very strange and twisted man who would love to think that the entire country is as bigoted as he is. I'm very glad that you are very, very wrong.

"but scratch the surface the bigotry is still alive and kicking."

In one little house in Munster it would seem.

Pete330v2 wrote:"but scratch the surface the bigotry is still alive and kicking."

In one little house in Munster it would seem.

A bit harsh Pete. Of course some bigotry still exists in the North and the South. I think it is probably fair to say that it is probably more visible in the North for various reasons.

It is more visible but it does not encompass the vast majority of people here which is the point.

As to voting, sadly the SDLP and UUP have both been poorly led for years and the Alliance is seen as a middle class party.
(although interestingly they are very much on an upward trajectory vote wise (up 30% at the last Stormont election)).
Also the combined DUP and Sinn Fein vote was 35% of the electorate and in a few cases the reason for voting for one, or the other, has logic to it.
In my constituency for example non of the three moderate parties put up a credible candidate - essentially forcing a straight DUP/Sinn Fein choice.
At most half their vote in the bigots camp (less than 20%) - still way too high but not the norm as you are trying to suggest

We are an election or two away from the Alliance holding the balance.
Also going by votes are we to condemn the entire USa nation because of Trump.

Sin é wrote: Why is there such opposition to an Irish Language Act which was agreed as part of the Good Friday Agreement and has been blocked by the DUP for the last 20 years?

You have answered your own question - it is the DUP blocking it - there is not widespread opposition to an Irish language act.

I am convinced if put to a referendum it would get passed, as would same sex marriage.

Do not confuse the rants of politicians of being representative of the people as a whole, even a significant number of those that vote for them

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"There seems to be a bit of confusion here about my point, so I'll restate it again. Irish people in general (as in the gaelic/ROI/cultural/RCs) feel a hostility from British Irish (Scots Irish/English Irish, loyalists) to all things Irish or of a gaelic nature such as Irish language, GAA (to borrow from elsewhere*), makes NI a 'cold place for catholics'**"

Confusion? Not a bit. Perhaps your badly made, misinformed points are confusing you. Do you feel you can speak for 'Irish people in general'?
What are English/Irish? That's a new one.
You then go on to quote a journalist who's waffling through his/her 'expert' opinion on peoples' thoughts. Why?
"makes NI a 'cold place for catholics". You need to research what exactly a Catholic is.

You really should just leave this debate, you're looking really foolish now.

I can speak for 'Irish people in general' just the same as you can speak for the Unionist community* in Northern Ireland.

*Nationalists in NI see things differently if you look at who they elect to Stormont and Westminster.

English Irish - just recognising that people came from both Scotland and from England in the Ulster Plantation.

Eamonn Mallie is a very respected journalist, so I'd take note of his opinion. Why is there such opposition to an Irish Language Act which was agreed as part of the Good Friday Agreement and has been blocked by the DUP for the last 20 years?

I know perfectly well what catholic' means - and note I have used Roman Catholics elsewhere - since the comment was based on 'cold place for Protestants' - I'm pretty sure everyone knew that included those from Church of Ireland and Anglicans back then.

"just the same as you can speak for the Unionist community* in Northern Ireland."

1. I can't and would never be so ridiculously arrogant to attempt it.

"English Irish - just recognising that people came from both Scotland and from England in the Ulster Plantation."

2. Strange but obviously a personal choice as I've yet to ever see it used anywhere.

"Eamonn Mallie is a very respected journalist"

Much in the same way that some would refer to you as a respected poster on these forums.

You are a very, very strange and twisted man who would love to think that the entire country is as bigoted as he is. I'm very glad that you are very, very wrong.

1. Maybe, but you are arrogant enough to state that I haven't a clue and am wrong and I'm just a bigot to hold such views!
2. Only right that the origins of all communities should be recognised and respected.
3. I had no idea I was held in such high esteem as someone like Eamonn Mallie on these boards. Your NI head is so messed up that anyone who sees things differently to you is automatically a bigot and twisted. There is no hope for Northern Ireland if that is the answer to every time.

geoff999rugby wrote:It is more visible but it does not encompass the vast majority of people here which is the point.

As to voting, sadly the SDLP and UUP have both been poorly led for years and the Alliance is seen as a middle class party.
(although interestingly they are very much on an upward trajectory vote wise (up 30% at the last Stormont election)).
Also the combined DUP and Sinn Fein vote was 35% of the electorate and in a few cases the reason for voting for one, or the other.
In my constituency for example non of the three moderate parties put up a credible candidate - essentially forcing a straight DUP/Sinn Fein choice.
At most half their vote in the bigots camp (less than 20%) - still way too high but not the norm as you are trying to suggest

We are an election or two away from the Alliance holding the balance.
Also going by votes are we to condemn the entire USa nation because of Trump.

You are absolutely correct I'm sure. It is a shame because its the stupid stuff that makes the news and often that forms outsiders views of a place. Sadly NI does have an image problem at least outside of NI. That's the most diplomatic way I can put it because I dont want to offend or annoy you.

geoff999rugby wrote:It is more visible but it does not encompass the vast majority of people here which is the point.

As to voting, sadly the SDLP and UUP have both been poorly led for years and the Alliance is seen as a middle class party.
(although interestingly they are very much on an upward trajectory vote wise (up 30% at the last Stormont election)).
Also the combined DUP and Sinn Fein vote was 35% of the electorate and in a few cases the reason for voting for one, or the other, has logic to it.
In my constituency for example non of the three moderate parties put up a credible candidate - essentially forcing a straight DUP/Sinn Fein choice.
At most half their vote in the bigots camp (less than 20%) - still way too high but not the norm as you are trying to suggest

We are an election or two away from the Alliance holding the balance.
Also going by votes are we to condemn the entire USa nation because of Trump.

I think Northern Ireland is fairly hamstrung by the need for tactical voting, moreso than anywhere else in the UK. Where the rest of the moderate parties don't have a chance, I think the vast majority or people hold their nose and vote for whichever they think is the lesser of two evils. Pity because it means its difficult for any other party to rise to their level and compete. But I don't think giving them their vote means they agree with the platform.

As an aside as well, I'm not sure about the UUP, but I don't know what the SDLP stands for these days aside from not being Sinn Fein. They were mainly a vehicle for John Hume and have struggled for relevance since.

Spot on post

If it is a widespread view that Ulster is an anti-Irish province as Sin e indicates then should the IRFU stop funding and cut them loose?

The Great Aukster wrote:If it is a widespread view that Ulster is an anti-Irish province as Sin e indicates then should the IRFU stop funding and cut them loose?

If the Ulster lads keep turning in performances like against the Saints they might get a winding-up order anyway, doesn't bode well for the season. Aside from Jackson, what the hell else is going wrong up there?

Marshes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:If it is a widespread view that Ulster is an anti-Irish province as Sin e indicates then should the IRFU stop funding and cut them loose?

If the Ulster lads keep turning in performances like against the Saints they might get a winding-up order anyway, doesn't bode well for the season. Aside from Jackson, what the hell else is going wrong up there?

It's never nice to be on the receiving end of that kind of stuffing but I'll wait until the season actually starts before making any kind of judgement on the squad. We've seen Ulster look fine in preseason games in the past only to produce a season we'd rather wipe from memory so hopefully things have improved but just haven't manifested in the friendlies.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:If it is a widespread view that Ulster is an anti-Irish province as Sin e indicates then should the IRFU stop funding and cut them loose?

If the Ulster lads keep turning in performances like against the Saints they might get a winding-up order anyway, doesn't bode well for the season. Aside from Jackson, what the hell else is going wrong up there?

It's never nice to be on the receiving end of that kind of stuffing but I'll wait until the season actually starts before making any kind of judgement on the squad. We've seen Ulster look fine in preseason games in the past only to produce a season we'd rather wipe from memory  so hopefully things have improved but just haven't manifested in the friendlies.

Hopefully so, plus you have a lot of lads to welcome back and Lealiifano to come in.

Marshes wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:If it is a widespread view that Ulster is an anti-Irish province as Sin e indicates then should the IRFU stop funding and cut them loose?

If the Ulster lads keep turning in performances like against the Saints they might get a winding-up order anyway, doesn't bode well for the season. Aside from Jackson, what the hell else is going wrong up there?

It's never nice to be on the receiving end of that kind of stuffing but I'll wait until the season actually starts before making any kind of judgement on the squad. We've seen Ulster look fine in preseason games in the past only to produce a season we'd rather wipe from memory  so hopefully things have improved but just haven't manifested in the friendlies.

Hopefully so, plus you have a lot of lads to welcome back and Lealiifano to come in.

We do and fingers crossed they can make a difference. We have no depth as usual so hopefully we can remain uncharacteristically inury free. How did Connacht do in their preseason?

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Marshes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:If it is a widespread view that Ulster is an anti-Irish province as Sin e indicates then should the IRFU stop funding and cut them loose?

If the Ulster lads keep turning in performances like against the Saints they might get a winding-up order anyway, doesn't bode well for the season. Aside from Jackson, what the hell else is going wrong up there?

It's never nice to be on the receiving end of that kind of stuffing but I'll wait until the season actually starts before making any kind of judgement on the squad. We've seen Ulster look fine in preseason games in the past only to produce a season we'd rather wipe from memory  so hopefully things have improved but just haven't manifested in the friendlies.

Hopefully so, plus you have a lot of lads to welcome back and Lealiifano to come in.

We do and fingers crossed they can make a difference. We have no depth as usual so hopefully we can remain uncharacteristically inury free. How did Connacht do in their preseason?

Any young lads to watch out for? Saw a few had been added from the academy. Is Rob Lyttle kicking on? He looked decent whenever I saw him! Stockdale should be regularly in green by year end if he keeps on his trajectory. Also really looking forward to the Cheetahs game this friday to see where they will factor in.

For Connacht pre-season bit of a mixed bag. First run out were leading Wasps 12-22 with 65 minutes gone two weeks ago, and some how lost 40-22. It was a lot of kids playing but good to know Keane is keeping alive the Connacht tradition of losing your head in the last quarter!! Second friendly was a convincing enough run out against Bristol. Glasgow as a first test will let us know where we should be aiming. I'd be very happy with a QF appearance.

Unusually for us not too many injuries heading into season start without a host of injuries and the tea lady having to hold tackle bags. Adeolokun, TOH, and Blade out in the backrow and Dawai in the Forwards, but aside from that should be a fairly full deck

Stockdale still has loads of work to do, his defensive work and positioning at times are suspect but he's only 21 so still plenty of time to add to his game and being in camp over the summer won't have hurt

Agreed he should spend all year on the wing and development his awareness there.

Talk of him moving to 15 or 13 is too early

I think Ireland need his style of player more on the wing. Hope he sticks there for the time being. Yeah still a few things to iron out but he looks to the manor born

The conservatives naturally want Stockdale to learn his defensive trade on the wing before taking on the serious D required of a 13. If this approach had been applied to Brian O'Driscoll, would he have played for Ireland at all! His defence developed as he got older but it was his attack that inspired the fans and won games.
Thus far Stockdale has looked far more of a threat at 13 than wing and Ulster need a 13 who is an attacking threat - which is no doubt why they are flirting with Bowe at Outside Centre. If that is indeed Jacob's most natural position, Ulster and Ireland need to ensure he gets as much experience there as possible.

Ulster fans who have seen more of him will know best, but I think we are not blessed with wingers of his potential currently.

At 13 he would be behind Ringrose, Henshaw, Payne, Marshall, and probably Bundee Ali

For the wing slots it's Earls, Zebo, 32 year old Trimble, then maybe Gilroy, Scannell? Just a lot less depth.

As I say the Ulster lads will know his skillset more, and if he is not a wing then fair enough, but that's probably his quicker path to international caps.

There's no evidence that he is best at 13, he just claims that it is his favourite position. His future will be on the wing, most likely. Garry Ringrose strikes as someone who will be in the 13 shirt for a long time and Stockdale will be somewhere in the starting 15. What I am most impressed with from Stockdale is his ability to time his running lines to perfection, which is what made Bowe such an excellent player. That ability is very useful at 13, wing or fullback.

What I haven't been impressed with is his defence. I think he is a little large for 13 leading him to be cumbersome in defence (like McCloskey). By comparison, Ringrose is much more nimble and punches well above his weight, making him an impressive defender. For now, let's keep Stockdale on the wing primarily and give him the odd game at 13/15 for Ulster.

Did Stockdale not play like one and a half games at 13 and one was against Zebre? I bet he looked a more attacking threat then

Yes, and he looked good, but obviously he has been a real attacking threat in all three positions and against better opposition than Zebre. My point is that he would be a dangerous player in any of the three positions but he isn't suited for the defensive requirements of 13.

He has the potential to be a top class wing, chopping and changing is counterproductive

There is nothing wrong with playing him at 13 or 15 on occasion to maybe fill in for injuries or to allow someone like Lyttle to come in

Pete330v2 wrote:

"English Irish - just recognising that people came from both Scotland and from England in the Ulster Plantation."

Strange but obviously a personal choice as I've yet to ever see it used anywhere.

Educate yourself Pete! From today's Irish Times.

Newton Emerson wrote:My ancestors came from Lincolnshire and settled in Armagh, which, like most existing towns of that period, acquired an Irish Street, an English Street and a Scotch Street. Armagh and all counties west of the Bann were designated for English settlement; the Scots expanded their presence in Antrim and Down, while neither community grew large enough to displace the Irish as instructed.

A good read.  Maybe I'm not as uninformed as you think about NI.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-remember-the-third-tribe-of-ulster-1.3203693

geoff999rugby wrote:It is more visible but it does not encompass the vast majority of people here which is the point.

As to voting, sadly the SDLP and UUP have both been poorly led for years and the Alliance is seen as a middle class party.
(although interestingly they are very much on an upward trajectory vote wise (up 30% at the last Stormont election)).
Also the combined DUP and Sinn Fein vote was 35% of the electorate and in a few cases the reason for voting for one, or the other, has logic to it.
In my constituency for example non of the three moderate parties put up a credible candidate - essentially forcing a straight DUP/Sinn Fein choice.
At most half their vote in the bigots camp (less than 20%) - still way too high but not the norm as you are trying to suggest

We are an election or two away from the Alliance holding the balance.
Also going by votes are we to condemn the entire USa nation because of Trump.

Having few options does not explain the moderate parties losing votes - for example, Lady Syliva Hermon is losing votes to the DUP candidate and they think she will be gone the next time. On the nationalist side you see Mark Durkan losing votes to Sinn Fein. If the DUP can block everything (like Same Sex Marriage or stand alone Irish Language Act) their voters are supporting these views and are responsible for preventing them. Voters gets the politicians they deserve.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It is more visible but it does not encompass the vast majority of people here which is the point.

As to voting, sadly the SDLP and UUP have both been poorly led for years and the Alliance is seen as a middle class party.
(although interestingly they are very much on an upward trajectory vote wise (up 30% at the last Stormont election)).
Also the combined DUP and Sinn Fein vote was 35% of the electorate and in a few cases the reason for voting for one, or the other, has logic to it.
In my constituency for example non of the three moderate parties put up a credible candidate - essentially forcing a straight DUP/Sinn Fein choice.
At most half their vote in the bigots camp (less than 20%) - still way too high but not the norm as you are trying to suggest

We are an election or two away from the Alliance holding the balance.
Also going by votes are we to condemn the entire USa nation because of Trump.

Having few options does not explain the moderate parties losing votes - for example, Lady Syliva Hermon is losing votes to the DUP candidate and they think she will be gone the next time. On the nationalist side you see Mark Durkan losing votes to Sinn Fein. If the DUP can block everything (like Same Sex Marriage or stand alone Irish Language Act) their voters are supporting these views and are responsible for preventing them. Voters gets the politicians they deserve.

A lot of SF and DUPs platform is the other side are bad but the other parties on this side aren't up to scratch and a lot of the campaigning is the two parties bickering to the point it almost seems coordinated, so many end up with the view that they are anti-SF or anti-DUP and the opposite of one is the other.

It's not helped by the UUP having been lead by Mike Nesbitt who had zero political acumen or experience, he was first elected less than a year before becoming leader. SDLP had Alaisdair McDonnell who had all the charisma of a pile of dog turd and had the ability to talk a load of it at times and contradicted party policy too. The Alliance Party had David Ford who while principled and seemingly honest again lacked the charisma and suffered from a coordinated campaign from DUP/UUP over 'flegs'.

Between the three parties there are good people and policies but are quite often pi$$ing against the wall. For decades West and East Belfast have been represented by SF and DUP, guess who are two of the most underprivileged, underemployed and under educated areas in the UK?

marty2086 wrote:A lot of SF and DUPs platform is the other side are bad but the other parties on this side aren't up to scratch and a lot of the campaigning is the two parties bickering to the point it almost seems coordinated, so many end up with the view that they are anti-SF or anti-DUP and the opposite of one is the other.

It's not helped by the UUP having been lead by Mike Nesbitt who had zero political acumen or experience, he was first elected less than a year before becoming leader. SDLP had Alaisdair McDonnell who had all the charisma of a pile of dog turd and had the ability to talk a load of it at times and contradicted party policy too. The Alliance Party had David Ford who while principled and seemingly honest again lacked the charisma and suffered from a coordinated campaign from DUP/UUP over 'flegs'.

Between the three parties there are good people and policies but are quite often pi$$ing against the wall. For decades West and East Belfast have been represented by SF and DUP, guess who are two of the most underprivileged, underemployed and under educated areas in the UK?

The politicians will debate 'flegs' because that is what their supporters/voters want. I seem to recall that Mike Nesbitt supporting an Irish Language Act was the nail in his coffin. Are you suggesting that Arlene pulls in the DUP vote with charisma

West Belfast is 7.4% and North Belfast 6.8% (and both feature in the top 10 worst unemployment blackspots of the UK). I can't find any recent info for East Belfast, but a couple of years ago it was about 4.2%.

Those figures are not bad. Average in the Republic is about 7%. Mind you, NI has a very high rate of youth unemployment about 22%, but I guess thats the story all over Europe, except in possibly Germany.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, and he looked good, but obviously he has been a real attacking threat in all three positions and against better opposition than Zebre. My point is that he would be a dangerous player in any of the three positions but he isn't suited for the defensive requirements of 13.

Why isn't he "suited" for the defensive requirements of 13, but is for 14 or 15?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, and he looked good, but obviously he has been a real attacking threat in all three positions and against better opposition than Zebre. My point is that he would be a dangerous player in any of the three positions but he isn't suited for the defensive requirements of 13.

Why isn't he "suited" for the defensive requirements of 13, but is for 14 or 15?

I think they are very different defensive requirements, 13 requires a fairly good read of where the opposition wants to make the break and smothering it either by shooting up or holding the line. Its proactive defense versus the more scramble aspects which is the wing and fullback.

Can't speak to whether Stockdale is more suited to either or not though. Luckily better defense in all positions comes with experience and we can expect that to improve, but I think 13 needs to be a bit more cerebral in defense in addition to their attacking capabilities.

IMO we just need someone of his talents in the wide positions, we have no quality in depth there, although some promising players coming through.

Marshes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, and he looked good, but obviously he has been a real attacking threat in all three positions and against better opposition than Zebre. My point is that he would be a dangerous player in any of the three positions but he isn't suited for the defensive requirements of 13.

Why isn't he "suited" for the defensive requirements of 13, but is for 14 or 15?

I think they are very different defensive requirements, 13 requires a fairly good read of where the opposition wants to make the break and smothering it either by shooting up or holding the line. Its proactive defense versus the more scramble aspects which is the wing and fullback.

Can't speak to whether Stockdale is more suited to either or not though. Luckily better defense in all positions comes with experience and we can expect that to improve, but I think 13 needs to be a bit more cerebral in defense in addition to their attacking capabilities.

IMO we just need someone of his talents in the wide positions, we have no quality in depth there, although some promising players coming through.

Can't agree Marshes - there is a paucity of outside centres rather than back three players in Ireland. As well as those wingers you mentioned it wasn't that long ago when Greenwood was calling for Adam Byrne to be in the Lions (never mind Ireland) and Sweetnam has his advocates too. Cian Kellegher looks to be a class winger and Rory Scholes looked destined for higher honours at least when he was at Ulster. Neither did you mention Conway, O'Loughlin or O'Halloran who are more than just proficient players. Larmour and Nash in the next crop look to have what it takes - maybe Lyttle too?
At 13 Ringrose is possibly hyped above his ability, and Ireland needs him to reach the heights expected. Henshaw is playing 12 and that seems to be his pigeonhole whether he fits there especially well or not. Payne is increasingly injury prone and was a useful transition from BOD but at 31, you'd have to expect his green shirts to stall. Bundee Aki may never play for Ireland and Luke Marshall is patently a 12 who is OK at 13. So Ireland have Ringrose and then ...

For Outside Centre Ulster have Payne who as mentioned is ageing and increasingly injury prone. Cave has never been Test class and is arguably struggling to be European class. Marshall, McCloskey, Olding, are all 12s - Piutau, Ludik and Bowe are all back three players who can maybe fill in at 13 (+Patterson unproven). Ulster need Stockdale to fulfil the promise he has shown at 13 far greater than trying to convert him to a position he himself feels he doesn't have enough pace for.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Marshes wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, and he looked good, but obviously he has been a real attacking threat in all three positions and against better opposition than Zebre. My point is that he would be a dangerous player in any of the three positions but he isn't suited for the defensive requirements of 13.

Why isn't he "suited" for the defensive requirements of 13, but is for 14 or 15?

I think they are very different defensive requirements, 13 requires a fairly good read of where the opposition wants to make the break and smothering it either by shooting up or holding the line. Its proactive defense versus the more scramble aspects which is the wing and fullback.

Can't speak to whether Stockdale is more suited to either or not though. Luckily better defense in all positions comes with experience and we can expect that to improve, but I think 13 needs to be a bit more cerebral in defense in addition to their attacking capabilities.

IMO we just need someone of his talents in the wide positions, we have no quality in depth there, although some promising players coming through.

Can't agree Marshes - there is a paucity of outside centres rather than back three players in Ireland. As well as those wingers you mentioned it wasn't that long ago when Greenwood was calling for Adam Byrne to be in the Lions (never mind Ireland) and Sweetnam has his advocates too. Cian Kellegher looks to be a class winger and Rory Scholes looked destined for higher honours at least when he was at Ulster. Neither did you mention Conway, O'Loughlin or O'Halloran who are more than just proficient players. Larmour and Nash in the next crop look to have what it takes - maybe Lyttle too?
At 13 Ringrose is possibly hyped above his ability, and Ireland needs him to reach the heights expected. Henshaw is playing 12 and that seems to be his pigeonhole whether he fits there especially well or not. Payne is increasingly injury prone and was a useful transition from BOD but at 31, you'd have to expect his green shirts to stall. Bundee Aki may never play for Ireland and Luke Marshall is patently a 12 who is OK at 13. So Ireland have Ringrose and then ...

For Outside Centre Ulster have Payne who as mentioned is ageing and increasingly injury prone. Cave has never been Test class and is arguably struggling to be European class. Marshall, McCloskey, Olding, are all 12s - Piutau, Ludik and Bowe are all back three players who can maybe fill in at 13 (+Patterson unproven). Ulster need Stockdale to fulfil the promise he has shown at 13 far greater than trying to convert him to a position he himself feels he doesn't have enough pace for.

Like I say I wouldn't presume to tell an Ulster fan what they need and where. IMO I'd agree that Cave (while a very reliable club level player) is not test class, Bowe and Payne are at the twilight of their careers, and Marshall is a 12 (who i'd argue can do a solid job at 13). Before we move on to the national picture though I'd say his immediate Ulster future is also on the wing with Gilroy out injured. That leaves you with Cave, Payne, Bowe, Marshall, and Stockdale covering 13 and Trimble, Piatau, Lyttle, Ludik (does he play wing?), Bowe and Stockdale covering the back three, unless I'm forgetting someone. Looking at that a lot of lads near career end or moving on next year as well, hope Ulster have some decent legacy planning in place.

Anyway on the national picture: at 13 we at looking I would say three confirmed test class 13s, Marshall as a solid option and Aki as a qualified unknown:

• Ringrose (Who is probably a long term 13 for Ireland)
  
• Henshaw (Used as a battering ram at 12 but way better at 13. See Connacht title, South Africa 1st Test, and England 2016)
  
• Payne (Getting on and injuries racking up, but still very much loved by Schmidt. I'd say retires next summer)
  
• Marshall (Has played 13 for Ireland)
  
• Aki (Not capped, but in the training squad and has a lot more experience at 13 than Stockdale)
  

On the wing, for two positions, we are looking at three confirmed test class and Gilroy as an oft untrusted option:
[*]Earls (Has to start when fit, but I still think he is not the best defender)

• Trimble (Getting on in years, but still a big player for Schmidt if fit. I'd say he retires next summer)
  
• Zebo (Plays a lot of full back with Munster, but very capable wing option for Ireland)
  
• Next in line is probably Gilroy (Such a clinical finisher, but Schmidt doesn't trust him as a starter and not often as a bench option)
  
• We could say Bowe, but he has been so unlucky with injuries and I don't see him getting back in the next test squad. For reasons of quality rather than injury, I say the same for Fergus McFadden and Dave Kearney
  
• I'd count Tiernan O Halloran (but I don't know how much Joe does, and he mainly sees him as full back)
  
• So then we move on to the lads with a handful of caps (Stockdale, Scannell, Conway, ROL, Healy, Adeolokun), and no caps (Byrne, ROM, Sweetnam, Lyttle,, Scholes, and Cian "I shouldn't be a part of this conversation" Kelleher).
  

Of this last group who do we think is test class, and who is leading the pack? For me it is Stockdale, Scannell, Byrne, ROL, Sweetnam, and a bit of a mire of quality but untested players below. Like I say, not disagreeing that Stockdale may consider himself to be a better 13, or that Ulster need him more there. More than for the international team, I think not only is that where he is more needed, that is where he will make his breakthrough.

Sin é wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

"English Irish - just recognising that people came from both Scotland and from England in the Ulster Plantation."

Strange but obviously a personal choice as I've yet to ever see it used anywhere.

Educate yourself Pete! From today's Irish Times.

Newton Emerson wrote:My ancestors came from Lincolnshire and settled in Armagh, which, like most existing towns of that period, acquired an Irish Street, an English Street and a Scotch Street. Armagh and all counties west of the Bann were designated for English settlement; the Scots expanded their presence in Antrim and Down, while neither community grew large enough to displace the Irish as instructed.

A good read.  Maybe I'm not as uninformed as you think about NI.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/newton-emerson-remember-the-third-tribe-of-ulster-1.3203693

Still showing your ignorance but I'm not here to educate you, remain blissful there Sin e.

What the hell happened here

Back on to rugby, can one of either Munster or Ulster hurry up and bring Tadhg Beirne back to the country so we can get him in the green jersey? He is the form Irish lock with Hendo.

As much as I like Dillane and what I have seen of Treadwell and James Ryan, I'd also still have have Donnacha Ryan around the squad for his experience.

Also maybe throw a look Gareth Steenson's way. Desperate times and all that...

Munster seem to be favourites, don't even think he's on Ulster radar sadly

Steenson said last week no one from Ireland has called him from the provinces or IRFU except for Les Kiss four years ago when he was looking after the N. American tour before Joe came in

marty2086 wrote:Munster seem to be favourites, don't even think he's on Ulster radar sadly

Steenson said last week no one from Ireland has called him from the provinces or IRFU except for Les Kiss four years ago when he was looking after the N. American tour before Joe came in

I think Ulster do actually have the better stock of the two in Hendo, AOC and Treadwell coming through, and (you may laugh) I thouht Diack wasn't too bad last week. Still could be a bit short of a body.

I think we should break the exile rule for either Steenson or Madigan, the depth of quality just isn't there at the minute, and I don't think Bleyendaal is ready to provide it.

I'd also look at starting Scannell in the November tests with Best of the bench. Prolonging Best's contribution is important and I think Scannell is ready to make the step up.

Beirne at 6 is a quality player too and Ulster need some IQ players in the backrow, AOC won't always be available and Henderson and Treadwell have the potential to be the future at lock for Ulster and Ireland so like you said an extra body would be useful

I like Steenson but it would be a place holder, Blyeendaal has the greater upside especially with the RWC coming up fast and Jackson potentially not being around. Madigan playing in the Championship won't be as sharp as you'd like which isn't ideal

Marshes wrote:
On the wing, for two positions, we are looking at three confirmed test class and Gilroy as an oft untrusted option:
[*]Earls (Has to start when fit, but I still think he is not the best defender)

• Trimble (Getting on in years, but still a big player for Schmidt if fit. I'd say he retires next summer)
  
• Zebo (Plays a lot of full back with Munster, but very capable wing option for Ireland)
  
• Next in line is probably Gilroy (Such a clinical finisher, but Schmidt doesn't trust him as a starter and not often as a bench option)
  
• We could say Bowe, but he has been so unlucky with injuries and I don't see him getting back in the next test squad. For reasons of quality rather than injury, I say the same for Fergus McFadden and Dave Kearney
  
• I'd count Tiernan O Halloran (but I don't know how much Joe does, and he mainly sees him as full back)
  
• So then we move on to the lads with a handful of caps (Stockdale, Scannell, Conway, ROL, Healy, Adeolokun), and no caps (Byrne, ROM, Sweetnam, Lyttle,, Scholes, and Cian "I shouldn't be a part of this conversation" Kelleher).
  

Of this last group who do we think is test class, and who is leading the pack? For me it is Stockdale, Scannell, Byrne, ROL, Sweetnam, and a bit of a mire of quality but untested players below. Like I say, not disagreeing that Stockdale may consider himself to be a better 13, or that Ulster need him more there. More than for the international team, I think not only is that where he is more needed, that is where he will make his breakthrough.

I think the likes of Adam Byrne and Kelleher have a lot of improving to do. They're just too erratic and error prone. ROM, Gilroy, Healy, Adelokun are others who I doubt will be involved because I don't think Schmidt rates them too highly. Its also too early for Lyttle.

I could see Scholes being a Joe Schmidt type player but it must be a worry though that he couldn't get on the Edinburgh team.

Sweetnam surely has to be involved this season. He has bulked up over the summer and is very talented. He is still learning but can't be too far away now.

Rory Scannell is another who has a bit of improving to do. He has a good rugby brain but towards the end of last season his form dipped and he was making too many errors.

Stockdale for me is a back 3 player. I'm sure he'd make a quality center too but he is a superb broken field runner and try finisher. Why put him in the crowded midfield area where he cannot show his running ability? Not only that but he has a very long kick which could be useful for gaining a lot of territory. Actually I think Bowe should stick to center nowadays. He has the rugby brain for it and there are very few top class wingers at his age.

One name not mentioned there is Jordan Larmour. On another forum back in may I named him on my predicted Ireland team for the 2019 world cup. He was devastating for the Ireland U20s and has already broken into the Leinster team so with a view to 2019 I think Larmour will get the call from Schmidt this season or next season.

One things for sure, there are a lot of options these days. I can see the likes of the Kearneys, Trimble, McFadden etc being under pressure to make the team or squad this season.

My back 3 players this season would be: Earls, Zebo, TOH, Stockdale, Sweetnam, Larmour and Conway. (I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious!)

profitius wrote:

My back 3 players this season would be: Earls, Zebo, TOH, Stockdale, Sweetnam, Larmour and Conway. (I'm sure I'm forgetting someone obvious!)

McFadden!

I wouldnt be surprised if Larmour was in the WC squad too. Great player and think he was part of the under 20s team that beat NZ.

Bring back Davy Tweed

profitius wrote:
Its also too early for Lyttle.

profitius wrote:
One name not mentioned there is Jordan Larmour. On another forum back in may I named him on my predicted Ireland team for the 2019 world cup. He was devastating for the Ireland U20s and has already broken into the Leinster team so with a view to 2019 I think Larmour will get the call from Schmidt this season or next season.

Lyttle played for Ulster last season but even though he was hampered by injury has more top line experience than Larmour, so why do you think Larmour is ahead of him?

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:
Its also too early for Lyttle.

profitius wrote:
One name not mentioned there is Jordan Larmour. On another forum back in may I named him on my predicted Ireland team for the 2019 world cup. He was devastating for the Ireland U20s and has already broken into the Leinster team so with a view to 2019 I think Larmour will get the call from Schmidt this season or next season.

Lyttle played for Ulster last season but even though he was hampered by injury has more top line experience than Larmour, so why do you think Larmour is ahead of him?

They played on the same u20 team last season and Larmour was the stand out player making most of the big plays.

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:
Its also too early for Lyttle.

profitius wrote:
One name not mentioned there is Jordan Larmour. On another forum back in may I named him on my predicted Ireland team for the 2019 world cup. He was devastating for the Ireland U20s and has already broken into the Leinster team so with a view to 2019 I think Larmour will get the call from Schmidt this season or next season.

Lyttle played for Ulster last season but even though he was hampered by injury has more top line experience than Larmour, so why do you think Larmour is ahead of him?

They played on the same u20 team last season and Larmour was the stand out player making most of the big plays.

They only played once on the same u20 team which isn't a lot to compare them on! Larmour did stand out but no more than Byrne, Kelleher or Barry Daly at that level.

BTW I can't see Lyttle making it as a winger - he doesn't have the searing pace needed considering his size.

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:
Its also too early for Lyttle.

profitius wrote:
One name not mentioned there is Jordan Larmour. On another forum back in may I named him on my predicted Ireland team for the 2019 world cup. He was devastating for the Ireland U20s and has already broken into the Leinster team so with a view to 2019 I think Larmour will get the call from Schmidt this season or next season.

Lyttle played for Ulster last season but even though he was hampered by injury has more top line experience than Larmour, so why do you think Larmour is ahead of him?

They played on the same u20 team last season and Larmour was the stand out player making most of the big plays.

They only played once on the same u20 team which isn't a lot to compare them on! Larmour did stand out but no more than Byrne, Kelleher or Barry Daly at that level.

BTW I can't see Lyttle making it as a winger - he doesn't have the searing pace needed considering his size.

But Barry Daly, Byrne and Kelleher are about 2 years or more older than Larmour and Larmour hardly got a touch of the ball.


Alex Wootton is looking good too. I'll have to see more of him in big games but he looks good so far.

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:
Its also too early for Lyttle.

profitius wrote:
One name not mentioned there is Jordan Larmour. On another forum back in may I named him on my predicted Ireland team for the 2019 world cup. He was devastating for the Ireland U20s and has already broken into the Leinster team so with a view to 2019 I think Larmour will get the call from Schmidt this season or next season.

Lyttle played for Ulster last season but even though he was hampered by injury has more top line experience than Larmour, so why do you think Larmour is ahead of him?

They played on the same u20 team last season and Larmour was the stand out player making most of the big plays.

They only played once on the same u20 team which isn't a lot to compare them on! Larmour did stand out but no more than Byrne, Kelleher or Barry Daly at that level.

BTW I can't see Lyttle making it as a winger - he doesn't have the searing pace needed considering his size.

But Barry Daly, Byrne and Kelleher are about 2 years or more older than Larmour and Larmour hardly got a touch of the ball.


Alex Wootton is looking good too. I'll have to see more of him in big games but he looks good so far.

Daly, Byrne and Kelleher all were stand out players in their u20 teams - the point is that success at that level is no guarantee they will be able to make the step up.
Conjecture about Larmour in the Ireland RWC squad is at least as speculative as Greenwood suggesting Byrne should be in the Lion's squad. Larmour may be an exciting prospect, but he needs gametime to build his experience and build the confidence of the coaches. If Leinster didn't have to play Nacewa in the centre would Jordan still get a game? He has been given an opportunity to make hay while the sun shines, but can he do enough to keep the shirt when absentees return?

Even if he nails the wing position for Leinster how many Tests would he play before the RWC? Given Schmidt may only pick 13 backs, is Larmour so stellar to command a starting position - Joe will want plenty of utility in those who aren't first choice and Jordan will have little enough time to show he can play in one position let alone two. Let's hope he does come through and turns out to be a speedster because Ireland need far more pace in the backline.

Agree on Wootton.

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:
Its also too early for Lyttle.

profitius wrote:
One name not mentioned there is Jordan Larmour. On another forum back in may I named him on my predicted Ireland team for the 2019 world cup. He was devastating for the Ireland U20s and has already broken into the Leinster team so with a view to 2019 I think Larmour will get the call from Schmidt this season or next season.

Lyttle played for Ulster last season but even though he was hampered by injury has more top line experience than Larmour, so why do you think Larmour is ahead of him?

They played on the same u20 team last season and Larmour was the stand out player making most of the big plays.

They only played once on the same u20 team which isn't a lot to compare them on! Larmour did stand out but no more than Byrne, Kelleher or Barry Daly at that level.

BTW I can't see Lyttle making it as a winger - he doesn't have the searing pace needed considering his size.

But Barry Daly, Byrne and Kelleher are about 2 years or more older than Larmour and Larmour hardly got a touch of the ball.


Alex Wootton is looking good too. I'll have to see more of him in big games but he looks good so far.

Daly, Byrne and Kelleher all were stand out players in their u20 teams - the point is that success at that level is no guarantee they will be able to make the step up.
Conjecture about Larmour in the Ireland RWC squad is at least as speculative as Greenwood suggesting Byrne should be in the Lion's squad. Larmour may be an exciting prospect, but he needs gametime to build his experience and build the confidence of the coaches. If Leinster didn't have to play Nacewa in the centre would Jordan still get a game? He has been given an opportunity to make hay while the sun shines, but can he do enough to keep the shirt when absentees return?

Even if he nails the wing position for Leinster how many Tests would he play before the RWC? Given Schmidt may only pick 13 backs, is Larmour so stellar to command a starting position - Joe will want plenty of utility in those who aren't first choice and Jordan will have little enough time to show he can play in one position let alone two. Let's hope he does come through and turns out to be a speedster because Ireland need far more pace in the backline.

Agree on Wootton.

Larmour has to prove himself at professional level alright. I'd agree with that. I think he will but I could be wrong. We'll have to wait and see what Schmidt thinks. There's a lot of competition around these days.


On another point, do you think Trimble will make the squad this season?