Glasgow and The Disapproving Neighbours 18 At Last! Whose Round is it?

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Add some statistics; time elapsed, in decades, since Ickle Jonny missed a tackle. Time elapsed, in eons, since someone stayed awake for the whole 80 minutes at the Library.

Make some witty banterish comment to start the ball rolling.

See! How hard was that?

nickj wrote:Is Weir still injured?

If he's actually fit then it is damming for him to be punted out the Euro squad! There's been no mention of him being fit so I suspect he's still injured.

I heard Bennett was targeting the Krasny game. Given that was little more than a training game over there, I assume it'll be the same standard at Myerside. I know it's a risk, but depending on fixtures (given we have to rest players after 5 games) then it might be an opportunity to give a load of younger/squad players a game.

In other news, the latest 7s squad pictures, I've not seen Darcy Graham, I wonder if that means he's back with Edinburgh. Or failing that he just missed the call for pictures.

They have not announced any changes to the sevens squad, so I would be surprised to see him brought back to Edinburgh for two games they should be more than capable of winning whatever team gets put out.

I hope we will see him debuting for Edinburgh in the new year. From what we saw in the Dubai sevens, he is some talent. It remains to be seen how he will cope with the rough and tumble of the 15 a side pro game though and he will need to be gently eased into that.

The 7s squad was announced on the basis of it being for the first 2 tournaments, so I don't think he'll be returnign until after that.

Is January really the best team of year to bring a small, lightweight winger into the 15s game??

Well you both have blown my totally unfounded rumour out the water in record time

http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/17/12/06/two-changes-7s-squad-cape-town

and just goes to show what we know.

Graham recalled by Edinburgh from the sevens squad. Bryce takes his place. Sam Pequer also comes in for Ross McCann.

Get in, back in the game!!

Strange to bring him back in at this stage - we've got plenty of wingers in the squad just now and he's done all the training for the 7s. Cockerill is maybe seeing it as a chance to give him a run in less high pressured games and against weaker opposition (assuming LI put out a reserves team again).

Apparently Brown was on crutches and we've swapped Bryce for him (best deal ever). I wonder if the plan was only to give him one tournament to get his fitness up after being out and he'll come back into contention for the LI game. Like you say the next two games are probably going to be slightly easier given LI will surely be concentrating on the league and Krasny aren't very good.

I'm very excited to hear this - I really think D'arcy could have an absolute stormer in 2018, and if Bennett is back soon Edinburgh could have a pretty potent backline!

I hope he gets adequate opportunity though...

I’m keen to see how Darcy gets on, as during pre-season he looked ok, but nothing special. That said he was playing in team still finding it’s feet and had Weir at 10 so got very little ball.

He seems to have bulked up a bit since then too, without seemingly impacting his pace, so that’s good. Not sure if he would start against LI, but as a bench option when, in theory, the LI team are tiring could be a really threat.

I think for the first time in years Edinburgh have a set of backs who look really promising.

Cockers is scraping the barrel a bit to find front row cover, and Edinbrugh confirm that Rizzo is off.

Edinburgh Rugby have signed prop Matt Shields from English Championship side Rotherham Titans until the end of the season.

Born in Carlisle, the 26-year-old tighthead progressed through the Newcastle Falcons Academy before signing for Nottingham, where he played for two seasons.

A former English Counties star, Shields spent the next two seasons with Plymouth Albion and Darlington Mowden Park before penning a deal with Premiership outfit Harlequins in February 2016.

The prop signed for Rotherham ahead of the current season, but linked up with his new teammates today. On signing for Edinburgh, Shields said: “I’d like to thank everyone at Rotherham for their support and the opportunities that I’ve been given this season.

“However, I’m delighted to be joining Edinburgh at what is a very exciting time for the club, and I’m very much looking forward to working with Richard Cockerill and the rest of the players and coaches.”

Meanwhile, Italian international prop Michele Rizzo has returned to his parent club Leicester Tigers following a successful loan spell with the club.

At TH that now means we have

Nel – Injured
Berghan – fit
McCallum – Fit
Elliot Millar-Mills – no idea
Matt Shield – I assume fit
Bryce – Injured

At LH we have
Dicko – Injured
Sutherland – Fit
Dell – Injured but due back soon
Marfo – Fit

Don’t think I’ve missed anyone, with the exception of EDP/academy players.

I notice Finn's brother Archie is playing 13 in the Varsity Match this afternoon for Cambridge, also a Scotland U20 number 8 by the name of Buchan Richardson in the same team.

nickj wrote:Is Weir still injured?

is lack of ability an injury?

There was a lock called McPherson in the Varsity game as well. Going to guess he is SQ'd

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/vigil-for-teen-rugby-star-in-coma-after-murrayfield-collapse-1-4633928

Really sad news - hope the lad pulls through

MacKnocked-on wrote:I notice Finn's brother Archie is playing 13 in the Varsity Match this afternoon for Cambridge, also a Scotland U20 number 8 by the name of Buchan Richardson in the same team.

And he scored!

So, on Facebook they made me a little montage of the highlights of my year so far.
It includes photies of among other things
me looking miserable and a female friend, in an England jersey, looking delighted in the Blue Room at Twickenham post Calcutta Cup
me having a pint with Dave Johnstone (Martin's dad) at Welford Road
Pipetto receiving his Player Of The Season award,
Pipetto with Batman at Allianz Park,
me having a pint with Shane the quiet second row at the Barbarians v England match,
and there is an oldie with Schiz, carer and Asbo at Sandy Park.

Do I need to broaden my interests?

No. You need to stay in more !

Stories about the SRU buying Worcester Warriors back in the media again.

Just read an article in the local Worcester paper saying that the only other interested party has dropped out and the SRU were the only serious alternative. A deal expected to be signed this week!

Still lots of unanswered questions about this, but it does seem that something is going on there. A very bold move if it does come off.

At least Worcester don't look like they will be heading for relegation now, LI seem to have taken on that mantle. They will do well to stay uo the following year though when Bristol come back up and the kind of squad they look like having!

BigGee wrote:Stories about the SRU buying Worcester Warriors back in the media again.

Just read an article in the local Worcester paper saying that the only other interested party has dropped out and the SRU were the only serious alternative. A deal expected to be signed this week!

Still lots of unanswered questions about this, but it does seem that something is going on there. A very bold move if it does come off.

At least Worcester don't look like they will be heading for relegation now, LI seem to have taken on that mantle. They will do well to stay uo the following year though when Bristol come back up and the kind of squad they look like having!

That's a very big if. I think the RFU will have a lot of objections.

Fairplay though, definitely cheaper than setting up a third club!

NeilyBroon wrote:

BigGee wrote:Stories about the SRU buying Worcester Warriors back in the media again.

Just read an article in the local Worcester paper saying that the only other interested party has dropped out and the SRU were the only serious alternative. A deal expected to be signed this week!

Still lots of unanswered questions about this, but it does seem that something is going on there. A very bold move if it does come off.

At least Worcester don't look like they will be heading for relegation now, LI seem to have taken on that mantle. They will do well to stay uo the following year though when Bristol come back up and the kind of squad they look like having!

That's a very big if. I think the RFU will have a lot of objections.

Fairplay though, definitely cheaper than setting up a third club!

How would that work?

Worcester have a contract with the RFU to develop young players from their region players for England. How can they do that and at the same time be doing the same thing for Scotland?

Exiledinborders wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

BigGee wrote:Stories about the SRU buying Worcester Warriors back in the media again.

Just read an article in the local Worcester paper saying that the only other interested party has dropped out and the SRU were the only serious alternative. A deal expected to be signed this week!

Still lots of unanswered questions about this, but it does seem that something is going on there. A very bold move if it does come off.

At least Worcester don't look like they will be heading for relegation now, LI seem to have taken on that mantle. They will do well to stay uo the following year though when Bristol come back up and the kind of squad they look like having!

That's a very big if. I think the RFU will have a lot of objections.

Fairplay though, definitely cheaper than setting up a third club!

How would that work?

Worcester have a contract with the RFU to develop young players from their region players for England.  How can they do that and at the same time be doing the same thing for Scotland?

That's what I don't get about all this - there's no point in the SRU investing if they're not able to send lots of Scottish players down.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

BigGee wrote:Stories about the SRU buying Worcester Warriors back in the media again.

Just read an article in the local Worcester paper saying that the only other interested party has dropped out and the SRU were the only serious alternative. A deal expected to be signed this week!

Still lots of unanswered questions about this, but it does seem that something is going on there. A very bold move if it does come off.

At least Worcester don't look like they will be heading for relegation now, LI seem to have taken on that mantle. They will do well to stay uo the following year though when Bristol come back up and the kind of squad they look like having!

That's a very big if. I think the RFU will have a lot of objections.

Fairplay though, definitely cheaper than setting up a third club!

How would that work?

Worcester have a contract with the RFU to develop young players from their region players for England.  How can they do that and at the same time be doing the same thing for Scotland?

That's what I don't get about all this - there's no point in the SRU investing if they're not able to send lots of Scottish players down.

I wonder that if a club doesn't receive funding from the RFU that it's not under the same obligations?

My knowledge is a bit fuzzy in this area to be honest.

There are lots of unanswered questions about this situation.

The one thing that is not going to happen is that the SRU will send 30 players down there to play. For a start, we just don't have that many spare players who would be anywhere near the required standard and weakening Glasgow and Edinburgh would not be an option.

You would imagine that there is more long term thinking involved within this. We clearly need to increase our player base and there is unlikely ever to be the potential to do this within Scotland. I don't see a third team ever being viable.

We know that there are a lot of SQ players and such a club may well be attractive to them. In terms of the RFU and their rules about numbers of EQ players, pretty much all of these guys will be EQ as well and only would ceased to be so once they got capped by Scotland.

There are good players at both Scottish pro clubs that struggle a bit for game time. Because of the big drop off in standards down to the club game and the fact that they get ravaged at international times means that they both do keep very large squads.

If the Super 6 gets up and running and does improve the standards significantly then that might lessen the need for such large squads, freeing up some players to be moved south. As would having some players based in another squad, some of whom might become internationals.

If it does come to pass this year though, not much will change in the short term. Players and coaches are under contract and it would not be a good idea to make any radical changes in any case for fear of alienating fans and sponsors.

It could be that Worcester just becomes a Scottish enclave in the same way that Saracens has become a South African one. It is never going to become a wholly Scottish club down south though, the RFU would never let that happen.

Anyone know what kind of money is being discussed here. As on other forums (esp. the GWs), would rather any SRU funds are invested in Scotland - esp. Glasgow Unless of course Nathan Bombrys has got us a rich buyer !

None of the parties potentially involved, Worcester or the SRU have made any comment about this, so it is currently all speculation and there has not, to my knowledge been any suggestions of the amounts of money involved.

Are the SRU allowed, within their rules, to invest significant amounts of money outside Scotland?

It would certainly be controversial and a lot of people clearly won't like the idea.

I think I will reserve judgement until we hear it from official sources if that comes to pass along with the plans and the rationale to go with it.

Still to much speculation at present to really make any sense of it!

I assume this is a similar situation to when the SRU was talking about having more of a control in Lon Scottish. From memory: The English team gets money from the RFU by developing/having EQ players. If they don’t meet a certain quota then they don’t get paid by the RFU (or I think more accurately there is a scale of player/money). Now the SRU could potentially bring in players who are dual qualified, and that would help toward the quota, but I assume the SRU will bridge the funding gap (probably not the same level) that the RFU would be paying.

The clubs/league are not owned by the RFU, therefore there should be no issue from that side of things as it’s prem rugby (or whatever they are called) who own the league and the clubs are independently run. Whilst the RFU might not like the situation, there, in theory, is nothing against it happening.

In terms of the players, again this is an assumption, but I would imagine one of the biggest challenges to the SRU and searching for SQ players in England (for example) is convincing, probably mostly young players, to leave their family and friends and move to Scotland. Having a club that’s an hour or so by car/train from London is likely to be a lot more appealing to players who might already be based in and around that area.

There is a lot to like about this idea, it gives the SRU a 3rd pro team which many have been calling for, for a long time, and it’s one who are already established and have a fan base, rather than taking a gamble that a pro team would attract fans in the north of Scotland (for example). They would benefit from the TV revenue generated by the Aviva, and they are not in direct competition with the other two Scottish teams so there is no conflict of interests in competitions (other than when Wycombe and Edinburgh go head to head in the final of the champions cup…..too far right).

There are still a lot of questions that need an answer (if this is even true) better than my assumptions based on half knowledge and guesswork, but there seems to be a lot of benefit in doing this.

I am with EWT on this one.

Dobo and co have made some pretty good calls for the SRU in recent times and I think if they have a decent idea/proposal here, then it is certainly worth listening to. There may be some method in the madness.

They have been proven right on a few of the other controversial calls recently!

It has been mentioned on here before, but it is a shame this isn't happening with Newcastle given their affinity with the borders and their history of legendary Scots playing for them. Worcester is as far removed from Scottish rugby as you can get really - I can only think of Denton and Grove as the only Scots of note that have ever played for them.

If it was Newcastle I'm sure the Scottish rugby public would be more enthusiastic.

Forgot Tom heathcoat and apparently Bruce Douglas and Nikki walker!

My point still stands though (sort of)

RDW_Scotland wrote:Forgot Tom heathcoat and apparently Bruce Douglas and Nikki walker!

My point still stands though (sort of)

and Gordon Ross, an academy coach, along with Simon Cross and our old friend Grandpa Solly!

No Scottish heritage, I don't think so!

Ok but apart from Tom Heathcoat, David Denton, Alex grove, Nikki walker, Bruce Douglas, Simon Cross, Gordon Ross and their head coach Carl Hogg (who is married to Jill Douglas apparently - who knew!) What have Worcester ever done for us??

Ok I'll go back in my box, but you could hardly class any of those as Scotland rugby legends with the same affinity with supporters as Gary Armstrong, Doddie Weir and Alan Tate et al have had!

I guess Newcastle could be classed too close to home. I mean if players have moved up to Newcastle, what's an extra hour up the road to Edinburgh. Wycombe is close (ish) to London and that's going to appeal to some.

EWT Spoons wrote:I guess Newcastle could be classed too close to home. I mean if players have moved up to Newcastle, what's an extra hour up the road to Edinburgh. Wycombe is close (ish)  to London and that's going to appeal to some.

Worcester, is a bit closer to Birmingham (and Scotland) than London!

Wycombe is where Wasps used to play, before relocating to Coventry, co-incidentally also near Birmingham!

Yeah my bad some terrible Google map failing on my part

Can’t see this being a long term solution, hope would be that the plan is to build up a player base of Scottish players with the plan of eventually developing a third team in Scotland.

I know there’s talk of it being a gamble, and I know it wouldn’t necessarily work but if the turnover is as high as it is in the articles then we can afford it.

BigGee wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:I guess Newcastle could be classed too close to home. I mean if players have moved up to Newcastle, what's an extra hour up the road to Edinburgh. Wycombe is close (ish)  to London and that's going to appeal to some.

Worcester, is a bit closer to Birmingham (and Scotland) than London!

Wycombe is where Wasps used to play, before relocating to Coventry, co-incidentally also near Birmingham!

I lived Wycombe-way (hence why I still support Wasps!) - it is not that close to birmingham, still 2 hours by car probably 1hr30 by train.

This aside it wouldn't hurt to have an exiles base in England - especially with Gloucester just down the M5 which, again, seems to be a good Scotland development squad in the Aviva.

If you think about it, i's a total genius idea

My guessing is that the team will be made up of mostly dual qualified players. That way the club will get the payments from the RFU for playing English eligible players and this money will be used to develop these guys. Then, when they get good enough, they come bolster the squads at Edinburgh and Glasgow. This then makes room for more dual qualified youngsters to come through. Then if the player that moved to Edinburgh and Glasgow gets even better, they could warrant a call up to the Scotland team.

I think that this club will mostly be used to give much needed game time to youngsters or fringe players who aren't quite ready for Edinburgh or Glasgow. A halfway house if you like

tigertattie wrote:If you think about it, i's a total genius idea

My guessing is that the team will be made up of mostly dual qualified players. That way the club will get the payments from the RFU for playing English eligible players and this money will be used to develop these guys. Then, when they get good enough, they come bolster the squads at Edinburgh and Glasgow. This then makes room for more dual qualified youngsters to come through. Then if the player that moved to Edinburgh and Glasgow gets even better, they could warrant a call up to the Scotland team.

I think that this club will mostly be used to give much needed game time to youngsters or fringe players who aren't quite ready for Edinburgh or Glasgow.  A halfway house if you like

How much prize money do the clubs get for winning the Aviva? Maybe we should aim for a Scottish double in the pro14 and Aviva ;-)

If we only send down fringe players and treat it as a development club then Worcester will get relegated, which would negate the point of having the relationship in the first place. The AP is a brutal league and if they don't take it seriously they will suffer.

RDW_Scotland wrote:If we only send down fringe players and treat it as a development club then Worcester will get relegated, which would negate the point of having the relationship in the first place. The AP is a brutal league and if they don't take it seriously they will suffer.

My bad, I never made it clear about fringe players.

People like:
Henry Pyrgos
Anton Bressler
Ross Ford

Now some folk would argue this would weaken Edinburgh and Glasgow, but if they do, then they can't demand a third pro team in Scotland!

Back on the Gloucester note - I reckon the SRU could persuade both Velacott and Scott to move to Worcester should this happen - they're in commuting distance.

Also it could be a good chance to put one of the Scottish coaches in a challenging environment. Much as I love what Munro is doing with the women's team I'd be interested to see what he could do in a head coaching role at a well-supported club. Then you have ex players such as Ben Cairns who could be very good coaches.

RDW_Scotland wrote:If we only send down fringe players and treat it as a development club then Worcester will get relegated, which would negate the point of having the relationship in the first place. The AP is a brutal league and if they don't take it seriously they will suffer.

Exactly, if they're not cutting the mustard at Glasburgh then they aren't going to cut it in the AP.

It's also a bit of a risk if you're sending un-capped future talent down as you're putting them in the shop window for the richest union in rugby. A few whispers in their ear and they could be the next Mike Brown, I mean Stuart Hogg......playing for the arch enemy!

Nelly - that's a good point about coaches. With only 2 clubs and a 7s team there's limited opportunity for top level men's rugby coaching in Scotland. You could almost set up a rotation scheme - Kenny Murray could move to Worcester allowing someone like Cairns, Blair or Dalziel to step up at Glasgow.

Sgt - I can see what you're saying but England has so much strength in depth it would be a rare occurrence for them to poach one of ours for a change. A talented youngster is much more likely to get capped early by Scotland than England.

I think it would be a mix of dual qualified/exiles and players who might want to test themselves in a different league.

If Hogg (for example) or Watson (just to make sure Glasgow fans don’t think I’m trying to offload their best players) fancy trying themselves out in a different league, then they could move to Worchester, so still under the control and monitoring of the SRU, but playing a different style of rugby and testing themselves in a different league.

There is a lot to like here, and possibly not a huge amount to dislike. I have a lot of faith in the SRU in terms of generating income, especially through sponsorship, if they can do something like the BT deal (smaller obviously, but along those lines) in a league with a large TV audience then could be a real success.

Of course for balance, WW are losing money currently and it does mean stretching an already fairly small budget across 3 teams rather than 2, but I think this is a good way of ensuring the SRU can keep some level of competitiveness by leveraging sponsors and existing deals with suppliers.

The developmental piece is the most difficult bit to get to grips with for me.

Worcester have some really talented youngsters who will be making waves in the England U20s over the next season or two. If Scottish players in the same positions who are slightly older and further in their development are sent to Wuss, how would this be prioritised?

That's a key part of it BamBam - what incentive is there for Worcester's talented young EQ players to stay if they aren't going to be selected over an SQ player sent down by the SRU. If the Worcester academy then suffers as a result it will rely on the SRU's academy, which is still very much in its infancy.

The SRU would very much be elbowing its way into the English rugby system with this move and they would need to think carefully how they are going to do it.

I would imagine there would be plenty room for EQ and SQ players within such a squad, some of whom may or may not be dual qualified. There is no way the SRU would be sending players down there on mass. We don't have the players for a start and it would just alienate the RU and the Worcester public. It would however give them potentially another 6-8 players to integrate into a fully professional squad., which would be very advantageous to Scottish rugby, maybe even a few more over time.

The big problem for this is going to be the political sell, putting SRU money into an English club is not going to sit easy with a lot of people, whatever the rationale.

Robertson in the Mail has just come out with a big article against it, don't expect that to be the last.

If there is any chance of this going through and being a success, then the SRU need to come clean about what is going on and explain in detail what the rationale is and the numbers involved, cash and players.

In the current vacuum of information, speculation is running wild.