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Welcome to the 4th season of the fantasy aviva premiership game


Opening Weekend fixtures; Leicester Tigers vs Exeter Chiefs ; London Irish vs Harlequins ; Newcastle Falcons vs Bath ; Northampton vs Gloucester ; Saracens vs London Wasps ; Worcester Warriors vs Sale Sharks

This Weeks match thread(s) :- https://www.606v2.com/t8662-fixtures-3#245781

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1. Sam
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Teams
Bath RFC
Manager:- 207bars

Exeter Chiefs
Manager:- RugbyDriver

Gloucester
Manager:- Anonmattyt

Harlequins
Manager:- Steve_sharks

Leicester Tigers
Manager:- LukeLovesLuka

London Irish
Manager:- stnick88

London Wasps
Manager:- Arry

Newcastle Falcons
Manager:- PoolyPunk

Northampton Saints
Manager:- Dammit_Chris

Sale Sharks
Manager:- SirJohnnyEnglish

Saracens
Manager:- LDCPete]

Worcester Warriors
Manager - Prop_Lyd

Robinson and Alexander were never world beaters. They had one good game a Twickenham when Johnson's England were at there worst.

I think the Oz front row is a long way off Englands best trio but the Second row I would call even though Oz have farrrrr better depth at lock. Australia have a better back row. England have the better pack overall.

Oz have better backs than England in every position but full back and maybe Ashton

I refer you to the series of articles that I wrote at the end of 2009 about the best players in each position for that year. You will see that at loosehead, 606 as a whole went for Benn Robinson and at tighthead Ben Alexander...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A60422375 - loosehead prop
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A60490181 - tighthead prop

And here's an interesting comment from someone...

comment by steven_sharks - 96 Never Forgotten (U7486489)
posted Dec 9, 2009

There has been a lot of impressive players at tightead this year for me. Adam Jones on the Lions tour, John Hayes in 6N, the way John Smit handled Gethin on the Lions tour, and Ben Alexander, but for me Castrogiovani is the only person capable of being as destructive and Carl Haymen.

just saying like

that's some digging you've done there pete

Pete!

I've still got the link to my old homepage on 606 saved as a favourite so it is easy enough to look up any articles that I have written as they are all saved on there still.

At what point on that thread did I call him a world beater? I have called Ben Alexander impressive? does that mean he is world class or world beaters? nope

The way I read that post you've mentioned it would look as if I'm considering Alexander as the 6th best TH in the world.

I remember those articles. Alexander and Robinson were fantastic that year, dishing out beatings in the scrum and destructive in the loose. To be fair they still gain parity with most unless Fa'ainga is at hook.

Whilst on the subject of props, who do people consider the best 3 loose and tight heads in the world right now?

You stick to your guns very well Pete mate
The aussie boys when in form are pretty impressive props. May be lacking form now a bit but not an excuse for Gits

TH's:

1. Owen Franks
2. Adam Jones (weight dependent)
3. Nicolas Mas/Castro (not great years for both but still up there)

LH's:

1. Tonga
2. Domingo
3. Beast

LH
1. Woodcock
2. Tonga
3. Domingo

TH
1. Mas
2. Castro
3. Jones

If Franks goes well at the world cup think he will be top 3 but not quite there yet for me

Steven_Sharks wrote:At what point on that thread did I call him a world beater? I have called Ben Alexander impressive? does that mean he is world class or world beaters? nope

The way I read that post you've mentioned it would look as if I'm considering Alexander as the 6th best TH in the world.

Steve, I never said you called him a world beater, but you did make the comment that he had one good game against a down and out England and that was it, whereas that doesn't seem to be consistent with what you said in Dec 2009 where you said he had an impressive year.

In any case, I only included your comment as a bit of fun, and more to highlight the point that the Aussie props are not gash as Chris seems to suggest. Never meant to cause any offence to you mate, and will remove that part of the post if you want me to.

I didn't take it personally I just wanted to defend my comments as I believe you had misunderstood them. I expect I have contradicted myself 100's of times over the course of this game as my opinions of players change like the wind. Eg. I suspect my first comments about Quade Cooper on this game were negative as initially I didn't like him and now i am happy to argue his case for being the world's best flyhalf.

I reckon by that point had only seen Ben Alexander play in that one game at that stage as I didn't follow Super rugby as I do now and I was initially impressed with him from that performance. My comment is unlikely to have been meaning I was impressed throughout the year by him performance. Similar to the way I am impressed by Corbs now. He surpassed all my expectations for him at international level.

Don't remove the comment that would be silly. I initially thought you were using that comment to suggest I had thought him as a world class at that stage which puzzled me.

A case of crossed wires

Woodcock, Barcella and Tonga'uhia

Castro, Jones, Franks

Stnick

It's a tough call in relaiton to the best props at the moment,as there haven't been too many fantastic performance from props at the top level in 2011. If you are looking at looseheads, Cian Healy is a fairly average scrummager at the top level, but was very impressive for Leinster and Ireland second half of the season so would have to be there or thereabouts. Tiny would obviously be in with a shout, but hasn't played international rugby since 2007 so tough to judge him on a level playing field as other international props. Woodcock has also missed a large chunk of the season with injury.

At tighthead Mas has been hit and miss, Jones up and down (and not just his weight), and Castro has been good but not anywhere near his best.

"I am happy to argue his case for being the world's best flyhalf."

Delete that one quick Steve....you'll feel the wrath of Matt!

Best props in the world RIGHT NOW...
As has been said, a lot of the usual supects not firing.

Would say something along the lines of:

Tonga
Crockett
Oosthuizen
Beast

Mujati
O.Franks
Kruger
Nel

Th's first 2 in no particular order as i think there are form/weight issues. the 3 rd choice are emerging but i would have them behind the top 2

1. Nicolas Mas/Castro
2. Adam Jones (weight dependent)
3. Franks and Cole

LH's: I would much rather have Barcella and Steenkamp in these but they have been out for a season or in Barcella's case more like 2 and a bit although i believe he is now fit.

1. Tonga
2. Domingo
3. Woodcock
4 Ousthuizen( on Form in top 3 but no international experience so far)

in that case matt my front row should dominate!

Manic day today lads!

Originally had kitchen ceiling leaking stopped the leak and ceiling falls through!

But on props

I'd say the best loosehead is at the moment is Cian Healy , modern rugby the scrum is a lot less important than prior years with forwards wanting to run about and get involved in the loose which Healy as a prop is leading the way in.

When fit and firing i'd say it's a toss up between Cian Healy and Thomas Domingo with the beast in 3rd.

Tighthead is Mas by a country mile at the minute with Owen Franks and Jannie Du Plessie pushing for 2nd and 3rd

My only comment re Tonga is that if you have a short squat tight head who can take it low he can be nullified. However he is so strong he often takes the scrum up on his own terms.

Castro/Jones/Mas all had average seasons but are streets ahead of anyone else in my opinion. Castro annoys me in that he gets in the way of so many attacks but when on form is a monster

I'd have agreed with you there last season Matt but Mas and Castro have took some serious hidings this year and there's a pot of 4/5 TH's that are pretty close because of this for me.

It's really hard to call as Mas for example over the years has been a rock in the tight but adds little in the loose. I actually think Cole has scrummaged better than Castro this year but Castro adds to the loose more.

I am a serious fan of Cole. think he is the best young tight head in the world and has capability to get much better. He is really bulking up well and does carry well.

Castro carries well but is often in the way and often knocks on because of this

I think the NH has the better scrummagers. Franks has been doing well in the S15 but look at how him and Woodcock got battered by England back in the Autumn.

Driver Tonga is surely the best in the loose. Agreed Healy has been good though is useful in the loose.

Not the biggest fan of JDP

Cian healy for me is miles away from being the best loosehead in the world. Behind Woodcock, Domingo, Tonga, Barcella, Sheridan, Robinson, Steenkamp, Jenkins and beast for sure as possibly other likes james and Crockett

I think south Africa may have a very different fromt row to what people will think cone Tri Nations and WC.

Would not be surprised if it is Steenkamp/Coonie BDP and Kruger or Botha

All depends on how steenkamp returns but Beast and JDP has been given some serious cuffings and JDP has gone back to his usual levels. He was great in the AI's and i had never rated him before

See Mcleod is now in the saffa squad. That must make pretorius 6th or 7th choice if that in the SH ranks according to PDV
Think Mcleod is very good and will become a top player and probably replace FDP anyway so a good move.

Also Brett has signed for Japan

"See Mcleod is now in the saffa squad. That must make pretorius 6th or 7th choice if that in the SH ranks according to PDV"

He obviously hasn't watched much S15! Mcleod is Mr average playing in a good team. Pretorious was best scrum half in S15 with Genia

Mcleod is a talent that s for sure. As i stated its according to PDV. Personally i would have FDP, Pretorius and then Mcleod and you have 3 gun scrum halves.

Ideally you would have FDP, Pienaar and then Pretorius for ridiculous depth at SH. so many top players in SA. when Pienaar is not starting you know they have good players

That's what I meant mate, Pdiv is crazy. Can see him taking Pienaar as he covers 10 but McLeod is nothing special yet.

I think Pretorius is being slightly over rated here. he is a good player make no mistake and has put in some excellent performances this season but I think he would struggle a little at the top level

Why do you think that Steve? You can only play what's in front of you and he's shone in a poor Cheetahs backline.

I just think that he does everything well but nothing brilliantly. A little but like Burgess, Cusiter and the NZ scrum halfs. I think he would be similar to Care at international level. He has all the attributes to do well but I just think it won't click. Happy to be proved wrong though as he is very exciting.

Pretorius has played very well.

Still think he is behind FDP and Pienaar though. Pienaar shone for Ulster and was Magners player of the year. FDP needs no explanation.

I really like Jano Vermaak of the Lions. very exciting player

Yea I'd go with that, I don't think he's like other SA scrum halfs, offers such a threat with ball in hand. Loved watching him this season, been praising him all year. Think Genia and Phipps have been very good too.

Was reading an article the other day Nick and it was slating Pienaar, saying how he's not good enough and shouldn't be near SA squad. Was really odd as I've always liked Pienaar, I wonder if he gets a bit of stick in SA so moved maybe?!?!

How does Adi Jacobs keep getting picked for SA? Looking through that squad it's like a who's who of 2007.

Pete, SJE, Pooly - i'm not the best with the front row and don't really pay much attention to it - but out of interest could you each let me know which of the top props mentioned in people's lists are Australian please? Please excuse my ignorance on this one, but I can't emphasise how little I know about the front row - but surely one of the props in someones list should be an Aussie?

SJE/Pete - also where did I say Liam Gill is world class or a world beater? he's a 19 year old with a special talent, is captain of the Aussie u20 and was also the star in their 7s team. Has played very well in all his Super 15 games and in his last one made Planet Rugby's Team of the Round. All points to the fact that he's a very good player, and yes he does lack physicality because he's young, but his work at the breakdown is exceptional already. He's only going to get better...

It was a top 3 props to be fair Chris, I think Cole only sneaked in one or two peoples. No Irish, Arg, Romanian, Georgian either but I dare say one or two of those boys can scrummage.

This debate has went from Giteau to Aus pack, Aus front 5 to Aus front 3 to Aus props!

I still really don't see your point....but at the minute it's looking like Giteau's poor form is because don't have any top 3 props in the world.....that's pretty weak even from you Chris lol.

And Gill hasn't played well ALL his S15 games, he was poor against the force.

Sorry Chris but your argument for Giteau holds no ground.

Giteau's last proper run at flyhalf for Oz was in 2009. As you can see from Pete's post above the Oz props were considered the form props in the world! A strong 2nd row with Sharpe, Chisholm and Horwill (in the best form of his career!). Elsom, Palu, Smith and an emerging Pocock in the back row. You stated that Gits looked poor for Oz because of a poor pack. Does that look like a poor pack? Oz had arguably the form pack in the world at the time!!! Giteua played poorly and got shifted to 12 with Cooper coming in. The poor form continued and Barnes has his spot now. If he starts at the world cup it will only be because of Barnes medical issues.

Giteau has been poor for 2 years now. He is not this top world class flyhalf you are making him out to be at all! Maybe 3 or 4 years ago but not anymore.

Gill wasn't that poor against the force Pooly. Just because he lost a few collisions doesn't mean he had a poor game. His defence and work at rucks certainly wasn't poor. he was also playing against four top class backrowers (Brown, Pocock, Hodgson and McCallman) for most of the game so that made things tricky

In the game he was outplayed by Pocock but Richie McCaw is also member of that particular club so nothing to be ashamed off there.

possibly pooly. think the fact he never settled in a position and was moved around a lot didnt help his progression. but he looks best at 9 and shone there for ulster. iv read an article saying he is the most naturally gifted rugby player in the world but just due to being moved from 9 to 10 so much has never shown it over a long period of time.

McCaw hasn't been outplayed by Pocock Steve. every game they've played against each other McCaw has dominated in every facet (can't see that lasting long). Do you not remember me going crazy on the stats lol

That was the first time I've seen Gill and as a standalone performance I'm stating that Gill was poor and I'll happily stick by that. He made zero yards, got knocked back numerous times in the tackle and made zero impact on the floor. That to me is a poor performance from an openside.

If you put in he's 19 and making his first start he played ok, but if a standalone performance he was poor.

I do like him Nick, found it a really odd article to be honest.

dammit_chris wrote:Arry Tom Carter or Jared Payne would sort out your midfield issues.

Anyone see that Liam Gill was named in the planet rugby team of the week? Would like to know what people think of him, as not sure how many of you have actually seen him play and feel that I will get marked down if I play him dispite him being one of the most promising 7s in world rugby. Havent seen him have a bad game yet!

I question how much of Gill you have actually seen Chris. He has had two super rugby starts. One he was poor in and the other he was good in. Hes had 5 or 6 sub apperances ranging from 5 mins to 15 mins in which he has been fairly anonymous in! How many of these games have you seen as he seems to be in outstanding form according to you? Your calling him a very good player and one of the most promising 7s around after one game. I would consider the likes of Matt Todd and Luke Braid very good promising players after going well for the entire season at super 15 level

Pocock certainly outplayed McCaw in a game in Oz last season in the Tri nations I remember it very clearly. Pocock was getting the better in the rucks and in the loose both in defence and attack.

Stats don't tell you everything Pooly. If they do then Steve Hanley is the best winger ever to play in the premiership (which clearly isn't the case)

SJE - look at the Tri Nations table for 2009 mate, then look at how many games the Aussies best props in the world won them...then look at how many tries, points etc were Giteau's...if memory serves correct Giteau got 4/5 tries, was their leading scorer, but they got hammered throughout the tournament (possibly not winning a game) as their pack was shoite. Pretty sure that it was Giteau who stopped the Wallabies getting completely embarrassed throughout that whole tournament?

http://www.trinationsweb.com/results/2009.asp

Is that the 2009 season you are talking about? The one where they played appalingly and whose pack was incapable of giving Giteau and co a platform to play on? Also if you mentioned how Aussies pack were better than any northern hem teams in the pack then you've got to take into account that between 2007-2009 they were amongst the worst northern hem teams to have played in the pro era

Why twist my words, I am not saying he is the best 10 in the world - he's a world class player and I will stick to that. He can play 10/12, he scores tries and is clearly a man that is marked out by the opposition. Over the last 6 months he's played well because he hasnt been shafted by coaches. Try being moved from 10 then to 12 and then to 10 week after week and not let it effect your game.

I just don't think Cooper and Giteau works as a partnership, so in games where they;ve been paired together when Giteau lost form, and when Cooper was starting his international career Giteau changed his game to accommodate Cooper's flair and that isnt Giteau's natural game. He shovelled up a lot of cr ap too because at that time Cooper's game management was poor and he made a load of mistakes. They then picked Barnes because his game suits Coopers better, e.g. a strong defender and less flair.

Pooly, in that game against the Force Gill was praised time and time again by the commentators for his work at the breakdown and in defence. He got knocked back in the tackle a few times but it was his first ever start, against one of the best 7's in the world. It was going to happen. But he played blooming well - did you see him in his last game, only his third professional start? Now how many 18/19 year olds can do that?

Yea he was good mate, he was poor against the Force though. I'm just stating he hasn't played well every game. I've never said he isn't a prospect just don't think he's physical enough yet.

You did ask for opinions remember lol

with regards to Gill I don't think he has to become a physical specimen in the Dusatoir and O'Brien mould. Brussow is the sort of player Gill is likely to model himself on and Brussow doesn't have a particularly physical edge to his game.

I see your point on that, but Gill is quite tall and rangy whilst Brussow is short and squat. I just think he needs to bulk up hold his own, not saying he needs arms like me and Pocock